Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

dan165

Are you telling us the 04 GP dash is not as good as the 03? Come on, the 03 is so much more plasticy! I can't frankly understand how one could prefer the 03 dash, there is no comparison.

As for the lack of a 5-speed, don't know. 4 speed works fine on my GT though, a real smooth shifter.

dindak

Having owned a 98 GP and looking at the 04, the interior of the 04 is MUCH improved. Good layout on the early generation, but the plastics were pretty cheap. No comparison to the 04.

ab348

Another weighs in with the same opinion. Face it guys, the dash and interior in this car is becoming a bit of a problem. I agree with you pacinpelo, the plastics in the center dash and console are very cheap-looking. At least your GTP probably didn't have uglycloth (TM Regd.) seats. It's so sad; I really wish GM would get it right for once.

richm4

One interesting thing I noticed about the 04 GP that I have not seen mentioned yet is that the background textures of the guages somewhat resembles the material used in the late 1970's era T/A Firebird guage cluster. I never had one, although that was my dream car when I was a teenager back then.

regfootball

"It's so sad; I really wish GM would get it right for once."

They never do, with interiors....seems like there is always at least one glaring flaw that makes the dislike override the like.....

The CTS for example, not too bad, but the center stack is atrocious and the door and upper dash plastics are of a lesser grade than should be in a Caddy. Plus, the gauges were a bit of a miss, unattractive and not very readable.

evandro

Try not to compare its interior with its bigger brothers', but with its competitors'. I did this, side by side almost, in the Detroit Auto Show. Then I realized that when it comes to fit and finish and materials quality there are two bins: the lower with BMW and Audi and the higher with Mercedes and Cadillac. At least when one compares the CTS with the C, 3 and A4.

dan165

Regfootball, Funny how the CTS won interior of the year??

AB348, what kind of car do you drive?

Rich, the gauges certainly have a very sport look to them. I like it alot.

pacinpelo

Does its take on the 04 GTP, says GM is evolving at a snail's pace.
They have some praise over the new GTP BUT said the competition from the likes of base Infiniti's Acura's and the like is becoming more competitive (better engines, transmissions and overall fun to drive factor). They found the 30K price tag a tough bit to swallow...in addition to the comment of the center console being made from diposable camera material. Say what you will about the competitions interior being made of plastic but they are doing it well.

I have always been a huge fan of GM and until recently have always owned GM......I ask myself when will the Lutz factor make its impact....are they not kind of spinning the GTP as this....oh my then it will be a snail's pace.

dindak

I would not likely get a GTP only because it's price moves it close to CTS territory and I would sooner go for a luxury car if I had the money. The GT form of the GP is very comparable in price to other midsize sedans and I think in terms of over all value, it's a winner there.

That's just my take.

evandro

Just don't let yourselves be fooled by MSRP. FWIW, according to Edmunds' "True Market Value" survey, a well equipped GTP can be bought for about $26000 while a CTS, for about $33000.

The G35, a sedan I like a lot, in spite of the promising MSRP of about $29000, can only be bought for about $33000.

So let's keep the things under perspective here: the GP is no where near the luxury segment of the market.

dindak

Good point. Not much in the way of discounts with the CTS.

rayainsw

What did they publish for 0-60 and 1/4 mile times?
My copy has not yet arrived.
Thanks,
- Ray
Wondering if they equaled the 14.1 posted here a while back . . .

regfootball

interior of the year...haha but they never disclosed who the competitors were.....and who gave the award....some stupid trade show.

vcjumper

Here is a link to a review
04 GP

vcjumper

What bugs me about it is they feature the flat folding seat like they've done something special/engineered a new standard where all they seem to have done is what others have not done because the way it affects comfort. Really is the only GM midsize sedan that could be on my radar for my Intrigue replacement in 2 years (unless the g6 has a more efficient interior) so that is disappointing. I know I won't be interested in the Buick that wants to be Lexus with portholes.

pacinpelo

0-60 in 6.6 seconds
Quarter in 15.0 @ 93 mph
Top speed 138, C/D had trouble getting to go faster because the engine went into limp mode as Hot Engine Oil displayed on the message center.

What I like is in the message center is it monitors the tranny fluid temp, interesting how that climbs when you use the TAP shift, although the computer takes over many times.

I will let you read the rest especially C/D's shot at the interior.

Hey in the same issue the Acura TSX is reviewed as well.
Fun Reading!!!!

dindak

Of course it must be phoney or you would have no argument.

oldsman01

Good point on the CTS interior. It's no STS or LS430, but compared to the 3 series, C-class, IS300, G35, and Lincoln it is on par. Funny you ranked Audi in the lower bin as Audi interiors are generally praised by the press.

Lutz, one man alone cannot change GM. And while Lutz did do wonders for the old Chrysler corp, some of their interiors were pretty cheap. If it weren't for Lutz though, it is doubtful we would be seeing the Pontiac GTO, Cadillac CTS-V, and several other performance biased vehicles which are in the pipeline. As I've said before, the GP was probably 3/4 complete when Lutz arrived on the scene and my guess is he was not offened by what he saw and let the car go on. That apparently was not the case with the next generation Buick Regal, Cadillac STS, and reportedly the C6 Vette as all of those have been delayed at least a year due to a styling change mandated by Bob.

evandro

The looks in the Audi were OK, if not teutonicaly bland, but the cheap-looking texture of the dashboard, being able to pry out a vent and hard plastic in the console, I can't understand why the press praises it so much. Perhaps for the same reason they praise Passat's, even with hard plastic on the upper part of the door where it meets the bottom of the window...

The BMW was pretty much the same as the Audi, but at least I couldn't pry any vent out. ;-) Both had huge hard, plain plastic fittings on all the columns.

The MB used very nicely textured and soft plastic, even on the B and C pillars (textured only on pillar A). The head liner was probably the nicest of them all.

The Caddy was pretty much in the same level of the MB, or maybe a notch below (hard, but textured plastic on the pillars).

rayainsw

That makes more sense to me . . .
Thanks,
Wondering what it would do with a 3.5" pulley . . .

dan165

I was in Hamilton ON yesterday and my passenger door on my 04 GP got keyed. I can't believe it! It's not horribly bad, but it's definitely noticeable. Why people have to do stuff like this I will never understand.

It's likely too deep to buff out so the door will likely have to be repainted. Anyone know of a good place to have this done?

oldsman01

Wonder if old reg was around:) Seems he doesn't like GPs. Seriously, I'm sorry to hear that happened. While mine hasn't been keyed, I hadn't had my 01 Intrigue two months when I came out of a grocery store and saw a lady in an Infinti Q45 two spots down just push her cart away. While it came within inches of hitting my car, I was so pissed because thats how dings end up in my car, I pushed the cart behind her car as she was backing out. I then got in my car and watched her as she had to get out of her car and move the cart. She then decided to put the cart in it's proper corral. She gave me the finger as she got back in her car and took off, but it was pretty funny watching her have to get out of her car and move the cart. I know, I'm probably encouraging road rage(or parking lot rage) but it enrages me when I find my car dented or scratched in a parking lot.

reg6

Hello All, first post so please bear with me. I am interested in purchasing a 2000 GTP. Other than me liking the car's appearance, I do not know much about the characteristics of this brand of car. Are there any inherited problems I should look for? For those of you who have this year GTP, have you been pleased with it's performance and dependability? Any and all help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank You in advance.

dindak

reg6 : My brother in law has a 99 GTP he bought used. No major issues but the front headlights looked pretty yellow and beat up, not sure if that's common.

dan : Ouch! I know that feeling though. I remember that happened to my first new car back in 1991. It was black and got keyed the second day I had it. Lots of idiots in the world.

ab348

Dan, sorry to hear about the vandals. A friend just had something like that (only much worse - actual gouges in the metal) done to his pride-and-joy Cadillac. But his isn't brand-new.

To answer your question from a while back, I currently have an older Buick Park Avenue that I need to replace.

From a strictly dollars and cents point of view, if I want a brand-new car the best deal by far right now seems to be the Saturn L-series given that I can use $2K GM Card dollars against one, plus they are offering big discounts. In Canada they are offering 2003 L200s for $19,900 on GMs web site. My local dealer has a couple of leftover 2002 L100s with signs in the windshield for about the same amount of money. The '02s are automatics, not 5-speeds so that may account for the seeming inconsistency in the prices.

I dunno if Saturn here locally will do a deal of if they are still sticking to the one-price philosophy. But even if so the '02 would be mine for under $18K Cdn and that seems a pretty good deal.

If I went that route I would much prefer the L300 with the V-6 but I am unsure what kind of deal one could get on them. The local dealer has a pile of L200s on the lot, fewer L300s. There is also some sort of 0% financing being offered although I don't know if you can get both it and the discounted price in the same deal. I find the L-series about as dull as dishwater but on the other hand they seem to be decent cars and the deal cannot be beat when I compare it to $20K Civics and $30K Accords.

regfootball

even tho i have no fondness for cladmobiles or most GM in particular I would never key someones car.

oldsman01

I test drove a Saturn L300 back in 01 before I bought the Intrigue. It may be one of the few cars that is more dull looking than an Accord or Camry, but I was somewhat surprised by it's performance. The V6 likes to rev and typical of smaller displacement DOHC engines it has to be revved a bit, but once wound up it goes. The 03s got a mild styling update and while still super conservative looking, the update did improve things a bit. I'd say you should be able to geta very good deal on an LS regardless of whether it is a 4 or a V6.

dindak

Reg : Wow, that's a relief.

ab348 : If you are used to driving a Buick, I can see why you don't like the GP. Totally different types of cars.

dindak

Received my June Car Guide magazine (its a CDN publication) and they have a 8-10 page spread on a 04 Grand Prix challenge they ran where ordinary people tested and rated the car. GP came away with high marks all around. The GT models got higher marks for value and exceeding expectations which I would agree with. High marks were also given for the dash / button quality which I thought was funny given a few people's opinions here.

Anyway, if you can access the magazine, take a look. They also had lots of pictures from the line at GM and a short Grand Prix history piece which brought back some memories of the 1988 Car of the year.

dan165

Thanks guys. Looks like the door will have to be repainted. but the dealer said they would do it for 5% above cost as I think they understood how upset I was. I will get it done next week as life is a little hectic right now.

Still loving the GT2 though. I get lots of looks in this thing which is nice. I saw another coming out of the grocery store lot the other day and we both gave each other the thumbs up. Still no problems with the car which is nice. Oshawa makes great cars!

evandro

Soon, but not now. Yet, has anybody here had experience with either Goodyear Aquatred 3 and Michelin Harmony? The come at the top in TireRack survey for all-season tires, but I'd be more interested on how these shoes fit the W-bodies.

I prioritize noise, comfort, wet traction and hydroplaning resistance over cornering and dry traction characteristics.

TIA

ab348

The "ordinary people" brought in by GM to review th eGP probably were subjected to the same PR fluff as was found in some of the other material we've seen surrounding this car - stuff that said the plastics and fabricsd were richer and higher in quality. Reality is that is simply not the case.

I got a thing in the mail from GM yesterday inviting me to take a test drive, have a ballot validated by the dealer and entered into a drawing for a weekend at a Bridgestone driving school at Mosport. I'll pass.

dindak

You're just a sour grapes kind of guy aren't ya?

Can't say I've ever been impressed by recent Buick interiors aside from the Rendezvous.

ab348

Only when the grapes are sour. The fiction that the plastics and fabrics are high quality needs to be challenged.

dindak

It's ordinary people that buy cars, not auto journalists. I don't see how it could get more real than that. The plastic thing is your opinion which you are most certainly entitled to but I could not disagree with you more.

Like I said, if you are a Buick kind of guy, it's not likely you would like any GP.

evandro

According to you, GM said that the plastics have HIGHER quality, likely referring to the previous generation of the GP, which is true. You shouldn't read into it that GM means HIGH quality, which is subject to debate.

evandro

Thanks for your input. The only drawback I see in the Harmony is that it's about 25% more expensive than the Aquatred 3 and the Pilot is even more expensive. I'm looking forward to hearing from anybody who's had the Goodyear too.

oogilieorang04

Evandro - I purchased Goodyear Aquatred 3's to replace my factory tires after 58K on my 97 GTP. They were about the same price as the factory tires so I decided to go for them. They are very good tires, but I can't say that they're appreciably better in the rain than the Goodyears that came with the GTP. I guess the GTP tires were good ones to begin with. Noise and comfort are once again similar to the factory tires.

vcjumper

Its a large step up from the impala plastics from what I've seen (not that that is much of a compliment).

ab348

Evandro, point taken re the high vs. higher quality issue, even though I don't agree with the assertion that the '04 interior is higher quality than the '03. Not with that "disposable camera" plastic used in the center console and dash stack.

VC, the Impala I rented a couple of months ago didn't have a center console but I can't imagine it would have been any worse than the one in the GP. OTOH, it didn't have a shiny black ill-fitting center stack either.

tek3

Just thought I'd toss Car and Driver's take on the GP's interior into the mix here:

"The interior trim takes a giant leap forward, with flush-fitting controls, one-millimeter gaps, and low-sheen finishes. The mouse-fur headliner has been replaced by an Audilike woven fabric."

dindak

The interior is very well put together. I have read that comment several places. I have seen no "ill fitting or shiny pieces" anywhere nor has any other review I have read.

regfootball

don't leave out the rest of what car and driver said

hard plastic on the center console that's more appropriate for a disposable camera.....

ab348

Wait for the next time they test the GP and it will be a different story. Almost always C&D loves new introductions regardless of the make. Then when they do a comparison test 6-12 months later the same car gets trashed.

johnclineii

Unless, of course, there is a large advertising insert costing many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then, it may be a different story.

Credibility.

Why do people say the things they do?

Always look to motive when someone either completely trashes something, or defends it against all criticism, reasonable or otherwise.

As Marshall McLuhan said:

Things are not as they seem.
Skim milk masquerades as cream.

Best advice? Drive it for yourself. Interiors are a highly personal thing. You either like them or you don't. And what others think should not be a major part of your judgment, unless of course those others are other people who will ride in your car whose opinions YOU consider important.

dindak

When good reviews are posted the people who hate the car always say "wait till the next review, they will trash it". Ya whatever!

If you don't like the car fine, but don't try and discredit every one who happens to like the car. It's no perfect sedan, but it's a huge improvement and competitive in the market regardless.

montanafan

As I recall, the Car & Driver article was the second test of the car. Didn't they talk about their impressions of the car at the long lead test in Arizona (or somewhere out west), and this was their second take on the car?

dan165

I have read several reviews on the GP and they are all positive. Yes there is some nitpicking but hey, no car is perfect. Lots of people criticizing the car have never driven on and I urge them to do so. It's a fantastic midsize car and one drive will show you how far this car really has come from 03.

ab348, If you like Buicks I can't see why you are complaining. Buick dash boards from what I remember are pretty dated. Perhaps the GP is too sporty for you.

montanafan

GM faces the large cost of of its obligations to its retirees and its current employees for health care and benefits. These are obligations of the magnitude that not all manufacturers face. If the appropriate price for a upper midsize class car is X$ to Y$, then of course GM's materials will look "cheaper" because they are less expensive.
I recently had the opportunity to take a Grand Prix on the GM 24hr test Drive. I found the functionality of the OnStar, XM, 6-Disc, Driver's Info Center and Gages to far outweigh any possible concerns I could ever develop about the appearance of the "box" they came in. But that is me. On these boards I try not to disagree with anyones perceptions or opinions, and I will not diagree with anything said. But at a no cost opportunity (other then the showroom time), take GM up on the offer of the 24hr test drive. Many of the smaller dealers have cars available all the time. Next on the list in the "Auto SHow in Motion" with the whole GM show coming to the Boston area mid-June.
Oh, and a tidbit for the rumor mill, Pontiac might have some rear seat changes in the August time frame.

ab348

It's not like Honda and Toyota are bringing in their interior plastic parts from some secret mill in the mountains of Japan. It all comes from the same suppliers that GM uses. So why doesn't GM spend the extra pennies? Pension obligations? Gimme a break. If that was the driving force then why did GM pour billions into developing questionable stuff like OnStar and Saturn? No, I suspect it is the old bugaboo, the cost accountants who drive the design of most GM models. What's the point of having a 6-disc changer option if the interior it's used in is bad enough that you can't sell the car it's mounted in? GM and Lutz need to give their head a shake and realize that "good enough", isn't.