General Motors Fans

fintail

Rental car stigma is when you fill up fleets with poorly equipped strippos. A lot of the previous-gen Sonatas I have seen in the fleets here are nicely equipped - same for local rental Camrys, which are pretty much all SE models. A bit different than the base 4-banger hubcap-shod Malibu of 10 years ago.

cooterbfd

"......Seems to be working in spite of the so called rental car stigma. "

First of all, it is GOOD that the rental cars are buying again. There was a huge article in the USA Today this week on it. They are really updating their fleets after a long hiatus. IIRC the average rental car for some of the biggies was around 17-18K miles, and they were trying to get them down to 10K. One of the renters they interviewed actually got a rental car with 50,000 on the odo!!

What I find to be hypocritical is how GM can be chided by some here for selling to the rental companies, yet the "darling" of the industry seems to get a free pass for doing the same thing.

circlew

Yes, I'll give you the sales data on the LaCrosse....the first part of 2010 has been good to GM...but looking at the -29% drop in CTS sales, one of the previous GM darlings is in HUGE trouble in the market....a winner no more. We'll see how the LaCrosse does for the full year. It will be interesting to see how the incentives help Lexus.

That's the trouble with GM's products. They tend to loose the value and the interest of the customer as fast as the U.S. Government bailout their car companies. I do think Toyota and Honda are starting to get in trouble lately on their styling and lack of desire. I always thought Toyota was going to be the next GM....and not in a good way.

The other two mainstream GM's sale, Malibu and Impala are way under the competition Sonata, Accord and Camry. The Sonata is just getting warmed up.

Regards,
OW

smarty666

I hate to burst your bubble man, but that is not solely the reason why the LaCrosse is selling so well. The LaCrosse sells better because it comes in at a much lower price points then the TL, G37, and ES350 do and your able to get much more incentives on the LaCrosse then you can on the former 3.

I mean come on, the LaCrosse starts at $26k and some change, while the G37 starts at $33k and something, the TL at 34k and something, and the ES350 at $34k something I believe. By the simple numbers on costs, a lot more people, especially in a recession, are going to be able to afford a $26k-30k LaCrosse then they will be able to a $37-39k G37, a $35-38k TL, or a $36-39k ES350.

I'm not saying that the new redesign and improved quality of the LaCrosse is not helping its sales because it is, I'm just saying that its lower price point will help to make it have higher sales in pure principal since the lower the price of a car, the more people that can afford to lease or buy it!

I'd still take a G37 Sedan or TL over the LaCrosse, mainly because I like a more responsive/aggressive ride, but the LaCrosse has I think surpassed the ES350! Just remember though, in the next year or so, the ES will be due for a redesign and it will be interesting to see what Lexus does to it and I think they'll keep this new LaCrosse in mind when redesigning it!

stever

I never really understood it either. I don't like the rental companies special ordering fleet cars that are missing otherwise standard safety features, like ABS - Fin's stripper models. And there is the risk of lowering the trade in value for your consumer customers, but cars depreciate so badly, how big an issue is that really?

Seems like if you make cars, selling to rental companies would be a natural target. Make some money on the sales and get some cars into people's hands who wouldn't otherwise drive the brand.

Worked for me a couple of years ago. Still impressed with the mileage we got on a Buick rental from the Green Bay Buick dealer (it was a couple of years old and had a few miles on it but was still a nice ride).

smarty666

I understand where you are coming from, but I just still don't understand the point of Buick's existence. To me, its a poor man's Cadillac, yet now, Cadillac is trying to distance itself from GM, yet Cadillac is and as always been the luxury division of GM and it not going to escape that and is the models who are suppose to be better comparable to Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, BMW, etc etc.

Now, all of a sudden, Buick is introducing models that are suppose to be compared to the Japanese and German luxury divisions when they never had in the past; Cadillac was always the more accurate comparison! Just remember, Buick all of a sudden is trying to compete with the big leagues and those prices set for the Japanese luxury divisions were set before Buick introduced its current line-up and set their prices lower than the rest and then says they are comparable to them; seems a bit stupid to me! what are the Japanese and German luxury divisions suppose to do, lower their prices?? who has ever heard of automakers lowering their base prices? they either stay the same or increase a few hundred bucks!

but anyway, Buick has come along way and while they have improved, they still have not passed in quality, or long term reliability yet, some of the Japanese and German luxury competition. After sitting in the LaCrosse last fall, I still was able to find some questionable material quality, though overall it was 10 times better than the Buicks I had 20 years ago.

no automaker has two luxury divisions, they either have 1 or none; if Cadillac is the tried and true luxury division of GM then what the hell is Buick suppose to be; cheap luxury? I just don't understand their purpose; isn't the quality suppose to be better in a Cadillac then in a Buick? isn't Buick taking sales away from its own luxury division Cadillac? all these questions just boggles the mind!

Personally, I think GM should have gotten rid of Buick, focus on improving and making Cadillac their sole luxury division and kept a reduced amount of Pontiac's making that its sole sports oriented division, to compete with the like's of Scion, etc!

Though the LaCrosse has improved dramatically, to me, vehicles like the G37 and TL have much better overall material quality and fit/finish then the LaCrosse has. There were a couple of fit and finish and ergonomic issues I felt the LaCrosse had that I did not see in the G37, TL, and A4

just my two cents!

iluvmysephia1

about what all of you all is talking about, but what I do know is that I haven't seen a post on here for 2 or 3 weeks from my buddy rockford fosgate. Anyone have any ideas?

Is he busy with Beth? Helping to resurrect GM as a Phoenix from the ashes? These are the things I'm wondering here from the SW desert as I await my Nevada Respiratory Therapy license and go to work up in the Great Basin area of Nevada.



The above is an example of a lake found in the Ruby Mountains of Nevada. Not far from the city of Elko, Nevada.

My wife and I will have ta score ourselves mountain bikes. Apparently mountain biking is huge in Elko County. Ta get our muscles tensile tough. Ready to spar with the host steve over in Boise, ID.

stever

There's a network of mountain bike trails right behind my house. One trial has two big jumps constructed out of timbers and decking to get more elevation before landing on the dirt ramp below (the jumps actually cross other trails). Bring it on.:shades:

Rocky was over in the Obama discussion yesterday so he's around.

Here's something for the fans:

"If you're into high horsepower flexed by General Motors, you'll love Trewordy's 200-car display here on the Gulf Coast of Florida.

Trewordy, 61, started collecting cars when he was a teenager in the early 1970s. He said he always had two or three even then - one to drive and the other one or two to fix up and to sell so he could buy something even better.

Trewordy makes no apologies for his museum's emphasis on assorted Chevrolets, Pontiac GTOs and Oldsmobile 4-4-2s, and GM-powered hot rods and old commercial vehicles."

New museum puts some General Motors muscles on display (Detroit News)

cooterbfd

"......but I just still don't understand the point of Buick's existence. "

Buick's existance has traditionally been the "working rich", so to speak. Bankers, doctors, lawyers, etc. Cadillac was for the uber wealthy. Buick is fine where it is right now. The Lacrosse is priced right, topping out at $40K. If any other Buick car comes in more expensive, it should be a niche product, like a Riviera. Even then, it shouldn't top out at any more than $45-50K.

Caddy's CTS is priced right too. The new XTS should be priced from the mid $40's to $60K THAT, and not the CTS should be the flagship sedan.

".....but anyway, Buick has come along way and while they have improved, they still have not passed in quality, or long term reliability yet, some of the Japanese and German luxury competition."

I won't try to sell you that Buicks of the last 10-15 years have been technological marvels, as they haven't (that could be why they have been the darlings of the geriatric crowd). And yes, the quality of the materials has lacked. I had a squeak in my dash on my '99 Ultra. It cost me 5 cents to fix (yes, I stuck a nickel between 2 hard pieces of plastic rubbing together ) But their reliability has overall been close to the Japanese, and FAR BETTER than the Germans.

iluvmysephia1

There's a network of mountain bike trails right behind my house. One trial has two big jumps constructed out of timbers and decking to get more elevation before landing on the dirt ramp below (the jumps actually cross other trails). Bring it on.

Rocky was over in the Obama discussion yesterday so he's around.


Good ta see our bud rockylee is still around and feeling feisty. I don't imagine I'll see many Chevy Volts down in Elko, NV(it's down ta you steve, up for me and over for most of the posters on here, eh?)but ya never know, there may be a conservationist or two in Elko.

Yep, my wife and I have bikes but they're ten speeds. We could start by just doing some regular biking around town and then progress to the real biking later on.

stever

Found a pic.

dieselone

What I find to be hypocritical is how GM can be chided by some here for selling to the rental companies, yet the "darling" of the industry seems to get a free pass for doing the same thing.

I don't care whether a manufacturer sells to rentals or not. What I do care about is the car I rent. Every GM vehicle I've rented made me feel like I was in a penalty box. Same with Ford. Now it's been a while since I've rented a car, but getting a vulcan v6 powered Taurus or an outclassed and uncomfortable Grand Prix was not a pleasant experience. It seemed like GM and Ford just kept them around to feed the fleets.

Last time I rented a car was in 06. I met my parents in Florida, we all rented cars through Enterprise. I got stuck with a POS Taurus and my parents got a Camry. While Camry's don't excite me, I will say even with a 4cyl it was twice the car of a same year Taurus, at least it would get out of it's own way with the A/C on. Those Vulcan powered Taurus's should have been phased out in the 90's.

Both GM and Ford have since updated their lineup, so getting a car that is basically fleet only is less of an issue these days IMO. I imagine the Impala is the fleet queen these days. While not a total dog, it is much older than just about anything it competes with and is due for replacement.

smarty666

I have to tell you something though, I sat in a few Fords at the NY Autoshow today, and I have to say they were not too bad looking and the seats and quality were pretty good.

In regards to GM, overall, though I think there is still room for improvement in a few areas, their overall quality, and fit/finish is much improved, even from just 5 years ago!

The one thing that still disappoints me with Ford and more to an extent GM, is the amount of rental fleet sales they have each month. They don't make money on fleet sales like they do consumer or company sales and the Japanese companies have them at much lower percentages then the American companies do. If they ever want to pay all that debt and get into the same leagues as the foreign competition, they need to stop having 30-60% fleet sales each month and get that number to below 15%.

iluvmysephia1

now that's biking at its best!

andre1969

Buick's existance has traditionally been the "working rich", so to speak. Bankers, doctors, lawyers, etc. Cadillac was for the uber wealthy. Buick is fine where it is right now. The Lacrosse is priced right, topping out at $40K. If any other Buick car comes in more expensive, it should be a niche product, like a Riviera. Even then, it shouldn't top out at any more than $45-50K.

I always looked at Buick, the upper level Buicks at least, as having most of the luxury of a Cadillac, but without the flash. And for the most part, I've tended to prefer Buicks over their Cadillac equivalents.

And it doesn't bother me that a LaCrosse and a CTS overlap a bit in price. I also look at them as two different markets. The CTS is more of a BMW 3-series/MB C-class contender, while the LaCrosse is aimed more at the likes of the Lexus ES350 and such. The CTS is basically a 2-seater with a marginal back seat, and more of an emphasis on performance and handling, while the LaCrosse is more of a comfy 4-seater (5 when needed) with more of a focus on comfort and luxury.

And, sure, I can see a few cheap interior bits here and there on a LaCrosse, but that's everybody these days. A coworker of mine recently leased an '09 Acura TL, and for a $40K+ car, I thought that sucker was kinda cheap inside. That hard plastic is starting to rear its ugly head in more price classes, it seems.d Not all that roomy, either.

xrunner2

Buick's existance has traditionally been the "working rich", so to speak. Bankers, doctors, lawyers, etc.

That must be ancient history. Maybe can find that connection by looking at some old black/white movie of the 40's, 50's. In dentist group I go to, one Dr has a 5-Series and the other has a Mercedes CLS. Similar to another doctor group I go to that has reserved parking for Drs. Spots are mostly filled with BMWs and Mercedes. One Dr I saw in the past regularly drove his 911 to office and hospital. When I talk to these Drs about cars, they are car enthusiasts. Unlikely they will find attributes in American brands at this time.

andre1969

That must be ancient history. Maybe can find that connection by looking at some old black/white movie of the 40's, 50's.

This is probably ancient history as well, but I think Buick used to be associated with bankers and such. When you drove a Buick, it made the statement that you were good with your client's money. If you drove a Caddy or Lincoln, you were skimming too much off the top. If you drove an import, you were likely to invest your client's money in risky overseas investments. If you drove an Oldsmobile, you were too conservative with your client's money. If you drove a Chrysler, you were also prone to make risky investments. And if you drove anything less (Mercury, Dodge, Pontiac, Chevy, Ford, Plymouth) you just weren't cutting it in the industry.

At least, I heard some statement along those lines a few years back.

tlong

And it doesn't bother me that a LaCrosse and a CTS overlap a bit in price. I also look at them as two different markets. The CTS is more of a BMW 3-series/MB C-class contender, while the LaCrosse is aimed more at the likes of the Lexus ES350 and such. The CTS is basically a 2-seater with a marginal back seat, and more of an emphasis on performance and handling, while the LaCrosse is more of a comfy 4-seater (5 when needed) with more of a focus on comfort and luxury.

I think the fact that we have been discussing this on Edmund's for about 10 years says that the reason for Buick vs. Chevy vs. Caddy is a failure - we can't even agree on why each division exists! I don't think we would say that about Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus or Nissan/Infiniti or VW/Audi (although VW has blown it with the Phaeton and Passat W8).

At least GM is much better now that they've dumped Saturn, Hummer, Saab, and Pontiac. What WERE they thingking. :confuse:

cooterbfd

All car brands have some overlapping price structure, though;

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2011/toyota/avalon/101286426/VehicleComparison?basest- yleid=101286426&styleid=101159628&styleid=101225630&styleid=101215242&styleid=10- 1197626&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs

This is Edmunds' comparison of the Avalon and it's similar models. Notice the price difference between it and the ES 350. It's not much of a difference, just few thousand dollars. That's about all there is between a Lacrosse CXS and a base CTS.

stever

Harley Earl's '63 Corvette Sting Ray Up for Auction (Inside Line)

cooterbfd

SONOFAB&^CH!!!!!

stever

I agree - two clocks on the dash is a bit much.

lemko

...in the current issue of Collectible Automobile featuring the Buick XP-300 and its creator Charles Chayne:

andre1969

I finally had my first repair bill on the Park Ave, 4 months to the day since I took delivery. It had been making a random clunking noise in the right front area. Well, it was due for an oil change anyway, and I decided to get the supercharger oil changed as a precaution, so I had the shop check out that noise. Turns out there was a swaybar link that had broken in half.

Overall though, a fairly minor repair. Total bill came to something like $362 (oil change, supercharger oil, links on both sides, and an overall going over). And it's amazing how much better the car handles. A lot less, well...Buicky! :P

imidazol97

Ooops. If you'd mentioned a clunking when going over slow speed bumps, I'd have suggested checking those. Salt rusts the rod through the middle. $7 each at Autozone.

Next is check the bushings on the stabilizer bar where it clamps to the front crossmember; those can wear through to metal making a sound when the sway bar is twisted.

andre1969

Ooops. If you'd mentioned a clunking when going over slow speed bumps, I'd have suggested checking those. Salt rusts the rod through the middle. $7 each at Autozone.

Yeah, that's just it, it was a random clunking. Sometimes it would do it over a speed bump, sometimes it wouldn't. And it definitely had to have happened after I bought the car, as I remember on the test drive, taking it down the bumpiest road in the area that I know of, and it felt tight as could be. Plus, the car wouldn't have passed inspection if the link was broken.

We had a really bad winter though, and at one point the snow was packed down on the road, into ice that must've been 4-5" thick or more, yet there would be chunks missing where you'd drop down to the asphalt, and hitting something like that is almost like hitting a pothole. Plus, as messed up as the roads have gotten, I know I've hit some potholes, as well.

So, that link was probably working fine when the car was inspected, but still near the end of its life.

imidazol97

If you want to tighten the side-to-side give in the sway bar, putting on stiffer rubber cushions on the links you just replaced is one way. The Bonneville folks put on urethane rubber parts with less give in them.

Your rear sway bar also has rubber cushions that can be replaced.

The original design is a bolt with a tough plastic tube around it. The salt stays inside the plastic housing and doesn't get direct splash to wash it away. Hence the eventual corrosion of the inner bolt--mine took 13 years on my 98 to rust here in W. Ohio.

These cars are well built. That setup design on the links must have been easier for production line handling and that's why I think they used it.

bumpy

The end link just snapped in two? On a Buick??? :sick:

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised the car even has a swaybar.

bumpy

The original design is a bolt with a tough plastic tube around it. The salt stays inside the plastic housing and doesn't get direct splash to wash it away. Hence the eventual corrosion of the inner bolt--mine took 13 years on my 98 to rust here in W. Ohio.

And GM has building cars for how many years now?

dieselone

Turns out there was a swaybar link that had broken in half.

I had that happen on my Suburban on the rear sway bar and my FIL's Tahoe broke both front links to the front sway bar. Those periodic clunks are annoying.

imidazol97

imidazol97

Production starts on Volt parts in MidMichigan.

tlong

Glad you like it. I think it's hideous. Sort of screams uneducated hillbilly with too much testosterone. To each his own.

Latest Edmunds comparo has the Mustang beating the Camaro.

imidazol97

This is the General Motors Fans topic. I think the discussion you're looking for is that way ------>.

circlew

Ahh, give me a break. I'll give the Camaro a B+ for effort, though. At least it looks good. :P

Take a look at the winner!



Regards,
OW

roadburner

In my case, I have never been impressed with the styling of the 1967-1969 Camaro. I thought that it never looked as good as the Barracuda, Mustang, or Cougar of the same period. To my eyes, the current Camaro(and Challenger, for that matter) resemble nothing so much as full size Hot Wheels caricatures of the original cars.
On the other hand, I still find the 1970-1973 Camaro to be a stunningly beautiful design. The interior design is also superior from both an aesthetic and a functional viewpoint. I've heard that GM considered styling the new Camaro after the 1970 version and I would be interested to see what it might have looked like.

andre1969

I always thought the '67-69 Barracuda was a hot looking thing...looked downright exotic, in my eye. As for the first-gen Camaro, I like the '67-68, but not so much the '69. I like it if you get the RS with the hidden headlights, but not so much the exposed headlight models. And while I'm not really a Ford guy, I do like the the Mustang and Cougar from that era. I actually prefer the Cougar though. I think Ford did a pretty good job differentiating them in those days.

imidazol97

The 1969 Camaro was my pick of the litter. I remember driving one and it was great. 350 three speed automatic. I was impressed.

tlong

This is the General Motors Fans topic. I think the discussion you're looking for is that way ------>.

Sorry about that. Lost sight of which forum I was in. Apologies.

imidazol97

In another forum you'd mentioned commercials. While digging around, I found this original Camaro commercial. I don't remember it at all. I had a Mustang then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqHTXirrIlo&feature=related

tlong

Interesting look back - thanks for the link!

lemko

I always thought the 1968 AMC Javelin was the most modern-looking of all the pony cars. Of course, I might be biased as my Dad had one.

andre1969

The 1969 Camaro was my pick of the litter. I remember driving one and it was great. 350 three speed automatic. I was impressed.

The main reason I like the '69 Camaro less than the '67-68 is that the earlier models have less of a "bug-eyed" look with the headlights. But, that goes away if you get the RS model with the hidden headlights.

I think 1969 was the first year you could get the 3-speed with the smallblock, wasn't it? That probably made a big difference in performance/economy compared to the old 327/2-speed combination.

lemko

Actually, the lights on the RS weren't totally hidden. The doors had slats in them for "flash to pass."

imidazol97

>'69 Camaro less than the '67-68 is that the earlier models have less of a "bug-eyed" look with the headlights.

The '69s have the taillight lenses that are individually angled toward the outside of the car. That really attracted me to the car.



>3-speed

I test drove a car and the automatic was still in 2nd and was going somewhere in the range of 80 mph and pulled strongly all the way up. Scary for me.

anythngbutgm

I don't know if it was a common feature but a buddy of mine used to have a late 60's model and he told me there was a neat option for the winter time. Basically if the back wheels was stuck on ice or snow, you open the fuel filler door and there would be a little squirter that would shoot anti-freeze or some ice melting liquid down onto the ground to melt the snow or ice.

Anybody heard of such a thing? :confuse:

beachfish2

I just looked it up on a Camaro board. There were 188 cars made with the factory option. Many more were sold by the parts department.

"Liquid tire chain was only available from about 11/68 to 2/69."

They also mention that lots of cars got nozzles installed in the rear wheel wells to shoot bleach or water on the tire to smoke them.

imidazol97

Motor Trend drive.

"
. The Regals have a slightly different suspension tune to the Insignias, primarily to improve ride comfort and accommodate all-season tires. But that doesn't mean the car has been transformed into a wallowing boat. Far from it, in fact.

"On the standard Michelin Pilot P235/50R18 all-season tires, the Regal is impressively quiet and remarkably composed, with the smooth, flowing transitions and confident straight-line stability so typical of a German sedan. The steering is liquid and linear, with just the merest delay as you pull the rim off-center. That's a trait deliberately dialed into the car to make the Regal feel more stable on slippery surfaces, says chassis engineer Andreas Holl. "

"
"This car's so quiet I'm falling asleep." That sentence has probably been uttered in a Buick before. But not in a Buick cruising along a German autobahn. At 130 mph."

tlong

That Regal is pretty nice looking, and if it is as good in the dynamics as they say, that is great that GM has done it. Let's wait and see how it does when it hits our shores. When will it be available?

I do wish they would dump that flex fuel badge.

lemko

I remember the old Cadillac ambulances had dispensers for sand and cinders directed to the rear wheels for traction.