General Motors Fans

berri

Well, I'm 55 and I live equidistant(20 miles) from the two Ford assembly plants located in Louisville KY.

Maybe you should buy a Camry from the plant down the road in Lexington - just kidding!

roadburner

Well, my experience with BMW cars has been very good- but then it's based on actual ownership of multiple cars. That said, if Munich continues to soften up its vehicles(numb steering, Barcalounger ride) I'll move to Zuffenhausen permanently.

uplanderguy

Well, based on my ownership of GM cars, I've enjoyed the initial cost, reliability, convenience of service, low cost of ownership, looks of the cars, too...although on the other GM board, I'd be told that's only my experience and not others'. Wonder if those folks would say the same to you about your positive BMW experiences. Somehow, I doubt it.

roadburner

Somehow, I doubt it.

And somehow, you'd be wrong.

uplanderguy

Nothing like an opinion posted as absolute fact.

I think "I know you are, but what am I?" got left out of your post.

stever

Most people have good luck with their cars - most are very reliable these days.

You can look to Consumer Reports or JD Power or Identifix (here) if you want some ratings or numbers.

I mostly follow SUVs - there's plenty of people posting about Equinox issues but there's lots more not posting at all. JD Power gives the Equinox a reliability score of 4 out of 5. J.D. Power hasn’t given the 2012 X5 a predicted reliability rating yet, but gives the BMW brand as a whole an overall quality score of three out of five, or "about average". (info mostly scrubbed from US News).

Sure are a lots of posts around here from people who will only buy a CPO "luxury" brand since they are afraid of the repair bills if they get stuck without a warranty. If you can turn a wrench, you have more options.

But this is a "fans" discussion, not a place to bash makes, and we digress.

Anyone shopping Camaros?

fintail

"I'd be told that's only my experience and not others'."

I get that all the time when I tell people my MBs have been generally easy to live with (admittedly with some occasional quirks). My old W126 S-class was especially solid, needing almost nothing over a few years of ownership. The C43 that followed had only one unscheduled repair (<$100), and the E55, knock on wood, has needed nothing but oil changes and consumables for the past couple years.

andre1969

Yeah, I'd say your chances of getting a truly crappy new car these days is pretty low. Of the top of my head, the last time I remember someone buying a new car that turned out to be a piece of junk, was way back when a coworker bought a new 2000 Lincoln LS. The details are fuzzy now, but I think it overheated, had a/c issues, and needed a new transmission. It was bad enough that the dealer took it back and gave him a great deal on a 2001 V-8 model...which my friend promptly traded when it hit 50,000 miles on a new Acura TL, because he no longer trusted Lincoln.

Sad, too, because prior to that, he'd had an '87 and a '98 Mark VII, and both of them made it to 150,000+ miles with few issues.

Honestly, even before that, I don't know too many people who have gotten stuck with a turd right off the showroom floor, even in the "dark days". One friend's Mom bought a new Plymouth Acclaim that had a bad engine. I forget the details, but she ended up with a Geo Prizm. Some other friends bought a '94 Civic, which blew two head gaskets and needed a/c work within about 80,000 miles. And my grandparents bought a new '82 Malibu that fried its ECU twice. First time was just out of warranty, second time was at about the 2 1/2 year mark. Granddad got fed up and traded it, bad ECU and all, on a new '85 LeSabre that turned out to be one of the best cars they ever owned. And back then, GM still had a lot of equity, so they got a good trade-in on that Malibu, even with the bad ECU. I think they got about $6000 for it, and it had cost around $11,000 out the door.

I'd still consider myself a GM fan, although they don't have anything in their current lineup that really gets me excited.

elias

it will be super if the SS is designed/built in USA. It looks much like a G8/Holden, and probably low production, probably implying some tooling/factory choices/locations. I figured it would be built down-under like the GTO-naro & G8, with months at sea to get here.
(From what I've seen, all the 'boycotts' tend to balance each other out, so many people boycotting whatever for so many reasons. Let's boycott boycotts.)

Yes, steve, I'm always shopping camaros here, and corvettes, at least in my imagination. I visited the cars occasionally at the dealership such as when getting Chevy Cruze oilchanged last week.

Last week the local dealership had a ZL1 but it was under lock and key, requiring escort to visit/see it on the 3rd floor. supposedly the only one in the northeast. (automatic transmission). So I ogled Z06s instead.

My pick for camaro models is the new 1LE option package. Probably none of those on the lot yet, but maybe can be ordered for october delivery?

uplanderguy

Wait! That 'other' GM board had posters saying that Chevrolet was giving rebates on ZL-1's (LOL)!

As of last week anyway, Chevrolet's website had no mention whatsoever of a single allowance on a ZL-1--but facts over on that board don't get in the way of a good 'my opinion is more relevant than yours'!

imidazol97

Would this be good enough to get me to Kroger's for grocery shopping?

elias

well, i theoretically coulda had a $3400 GM card 'rebate' on ZL1 but selected Cruze instead due to it being the least expensive GM vehicle with the letter "Z" in the name.

Currently I have a great pair of older/less-$ GM cars currently but starting from clean sheet of paper, I'd say the pair of new GM vehicles for me would be:

Volt plus a 1LE Camaro.
Volt plus a Vette. (V^2)

How about it - if you could pick 2 GM cars to own as your only 2 vehicles, which would they be?

I'll go with V^2 as my final-answer.

imidazol97

>if you could pick 2 GM cars to own as your only 2 vehicles

I'd like a leSabre Celebration from 2003 - 2005 and a Cruze LT2 model with wheel choice that has more rubber, i.e., smaller diameter rims. Might mean installing rims from an LS model.

andre1969

How about it - if you could pick 2 GM cars to own as your only 2 vehicles, which would they be?

If they could be from any year, I couldn't pick...there are so many cool old GM vehicles that my mind would go into overload trying to pick a favorite!

But, if it had to be brand-new? Well, one of them would be a truck, so probably a Silverado, regular cab, 8-foot bed. And I'd probably opt for the 3/4 ton version because I know from experience that a half-ton is way too easy to overload!

The other one would be a car. I'd probably hold out until the 2014 Impala comes out, and see what it's like. But, if I had to pick right now, probably a Cruze or a Malibu. I've heard that the 2013 Malibu gives up a bit of legroom compared to the 2008-2012, but I haven't checked one out yet to see how I fit in it.

stever

Can I pick a Meriva B with flex doors, flex rail, 1.4 turbo and the 6 speed manual?

roadburner

Nothing like an opinion posted as absolute fact.

Look, all I'm saying is that there are more than a few participants on these boards(many of whom have yet to even sit in a BMW) who regurgitate the "BMWs are horrendously expensive to maintain" mantra anytime a Bimmer is discussed. And yes, when I recount my experience with the cars -accumulated over 29 years with nine different BMWs- I am regularly informed that my cars are the exception- outliers. And their source? It's usually something like:
"My cousin's dentist had a patient who knew a friend that talked to some guy at a party, and the guy told him that he overheard somebody at Walmart say that they read somewhere on the internet that it cost $1500 to change the oil in a BMW."

roadburner

How about it - if you could pick 2 GM cars to own as your only 2 vehicles, which would they be?

Used: 1. 1974 Trans Am 455 SD
2. 1993 GMC Typhoon

New: 1. Z06
2. I'll walk, thanks.

andre1969

Look, all I'm saying is that there are more than a few participants on these boards(many of whom have yet to even sit in a BMW) who regurgitate the "BMWs are horrendously expensive to maintain" mantra anytime a Bimmer is discussed.

I'll admit, I don't have much experience with BMWs, but the only hearsay I'll regurgitate is that I've heard that the bigger and more luxurious of a BMW you get, the more expensive it can be to maintain and repair. However, the only out and out horror story I can recount is a guy at work who bought one of those V-12 BMW's, used. I haven't seen him in a couple years, so I don't know if he still has it or not. But the one thing that sticks in my mind is how when the battery died on it, it was a real pain to get into. Apparently, the locking mechanism on the doors is electronic, so when the battery dies, you can't get into the car with the key. So, he couldn't get into it to pop the hood to jump the battery.

After awhile, though, he was able to figure it out. Evidently, there was a connection in the trunk. He was able to get enough juice to it that way, so he could unlock the doors.

When it comes to the smaller BMW's, I've heard nothing but praise for the 3-series cars. One of my friends has a 2002 or so 5-series that he bought about 5 years ago, as a 40th birthday gift to himself. It hasn't been ultra-reliable, but at the same time it hasn't been a turd, either. I've ridden in it a few times. Not really my thing, but still a nice little car, IMO.

Oh, and the reason that it costs $1500 to change the oil in a BMW is because when you take it to WalMart, they'll over-tighten the plug and strip the pan, or do something else that screws up the car in the process. :P

berri

I'll be honest - I like the boats, so sign me up for a Buick Enclave and an upcoming Cadillac XTS so I can get back to some old fashioned Interstate cruising! Eat your heart out Lemko...

roadburner

I've heard that the bigger and more luxurious of a BMW you get, the more expensive it can be to maintain and repair.

Agreed, but that's pretty much the case across virtually every manufacturer's product line. Also, as prices increase the percentage of BMW wearers -as opposed to BMW drivers- increases exponentially(///M cars excluded. Mostly.) Me, I wouldn't be all that scared of a V12, but then I know where to get parts at extremely reasonable prices.

Oh, and the reason that it costs $1500 to change the oil in a BMW is because when you take it to WalMart, they'll over-tighten the plug and strip the pan, or do something else that screws up the car in the process.

True story:

A friend of mine used to be the General Manager of an Audi/BMW/Porsche dealership. Customers would bring their car in for service and afterwards the tech would ask, "When did you go to Jiffy Lube? The reason I know is because the lube pit monkeys stripped the pan threads and replaced it with an expanding rubber plug."

Another friend was watching the Jiffy Losers change the oil in his SAAB Viggen. When they poured in the new oil it began to overflow from the valve cover. It seems the idiots had pulled the drain plug all right- the one on the transaxle.

roadburner

I'll be honest - I like the boats, so sign me up for a Buick Enclave and an upcoming Cadillac XTS so I can get back to some old fashioned Interstate cruising! Eat your heart out Lemko...


Hey, to each his own. Me, I don't like anything much bigger than an E46 3er. And I like light, nimble cars- my ti weighs less than 2800 lbs. and my '02 weighs @2400 lbs.
People have been telling me for decades that I would get tired of "them little furrin' sports cars" and start buying Barcaloungers on wheels. However, at 55 years of age I'm considering a Cayman S for my next DD- or perhaps even a 997.

uplanderguy

In contemporary GM vehicles, I'd pick:

A base model, Carlisle Blue Corvette, non-chrome wheels, glass top, and that's about it.

And, I'd probably wait for the '14-model Impala.

Old GM vehicles, I'd pick:

A '62 Corvette with hardtop--any color but red, white, silver, or black...and I'd be OK with the base 250 hp 327 and Powerglide even.

A '65 Pontiac Bonneville Sports Coupe, Iris Mist with dark bucket-seat-and-console interior; eight-lug wheels outside.

uplanderguy

We traded our '05 Uplander van, bought new, late last May on a new Malibu 1LT. Today, for the first time, in the Burger King parking lot one town over, I am nearly sure I saw it. Same color, year, trim level, roof rack in black, wheels, had an excellent-condition front bowtie (they were known to peel and I had mine replaced), and the RF painted side molding was peeling paint (when nearly new I had that one replaced as it was beginning to curl at the ends and they had to paint the new one). I still think those vans look better than other vans, and ours was inexpensive to operate in the 94K miles we (mostly, my wife) drove it.

Anyway, I spied it, whipped in front of it in the lot (it was parked out by itself), and then I saw a lady sitting in it! I drove away, parked, and got out and thought, "I'll explain to the lady why I did that." When I started to walk towards it, the lady took off! Probably thought I was a nutcase.

berri

If I did a lot of hilly, curving driving I'd probably go for the sports car too (if my tall body fit in it), and Detroit doesn't really build that niche. But I do a lot of longer distance interstate cruising, so I go for ride. There really is a great assortment of product for different preferences these days.

berri

Interesting Uplander, I think the 62 Corvette is a really clean looking car, but I'd probably go with a 63-67 Stingray. As for older picks, I'd include either a 61 or 65 Bonneville, but as a convertible (coupe, I'd go Grand Prix).

lemko

Two new GM vehicles? That would be the ultimate loaded Cadillac XTS for me and a Buick LaCrosse CXS for the wife.

Two GM vehicles ever built? That would be a 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham and a 1970 Chevrolet Caprice 2-door hardtop.

roadburner

I was up at IMS today and took advantage of the test drives Chevrolet was offering. I drove a six-speed Cruze first. A nice little compact. Decent interior and fairly nice shift and clutch action. Second was this:



Nice seats, and VERY fast. The problem is that it is just way too big and heavy. In addition, you sit very low and narrow side windows make you feel like you are sitting in a pillbox. Still, it would make a fine cruiser.

michaellno

I've test driven both a Camaro SS and a Mustang GT with 6-speeds, and I prefer the Mustang simply because of the lack of visibility in the Chevy.

lemko

I notice the archway in the background reads "All New Impala." Was it there and what did you think?

roadburner

You know, I intended to check it out, but I was sidetracked by the Chevrolet Performance Display(ZL1 Camaro SS, Z06 Vette, crate motors, etc.). I was also chaperoning my son and several of his robotics teammates on a tour of IMS. The robotics coach is a friend of mine and he helps set up the in-car cameras for Indycar and other race series. He even got us into a couple of the garages. Here's some of the team(and their World Championship robot) meeting with Panther Racing driver J.R. Hildebrand:



And just to keep things on topic, you should know that the Panther Racing car is powered by a Chevrolet V6...

uplanderguy

well, i theoretically coulda had a $3400 GM card 'rebate' on ZL1 but selected Cruze instead due to it being the least expensive GM vehicle with the letter "Z" in the name.

The implication 'over there' was that the cars weren't selling--even before they were introduced!

A GM Card rebate is from GM Card...isn't applied to help move certain models, etc.

Boy, I hear a lot of unadulterated B.S. from vendors in my job, but it's nothing compared to what's on that other board!

uplanderguy

A friendly poster (seriously) on the other GM board mentioned how he thought that the new Caddy (either ATS or XTS, can't recall which right now) was better-looking than the DTS.

We rented a DTS maybe three years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. (Of course, someone had said there that one couldn't any more discern quality points from renting a car than merely sitting in one at an auto show....duh!). It was very comfortable, fast, made great, muffled V8 sounds (there's nothing like that IMHO), and even my then eleven-year-old said, "Dad, I'd give up the DVD in our van if you'd buy a car like this."

Personally, I like the styling and think it has aged well...'substantial' looking is what I'd call it and there aren't many cars that fit that description anymore IMHO. And like someone else mentioned once, 'the headlights aren't approaching the windshield pillars, either'!

fintail

I think the DTS, in 2012, is really starting to look old, and is kind of grandfather-ly. Fine, if that's your thing, but it isn't mine. The 06+ model also seems to be a heavy refresh of the 00+ model, so the overall design goes back more than a decade. That's a hard trick to pull off in the 21st century, and I don't know how many fell for it as time moved on. Anyway, it's a hell of a used deal, but buying a DTS new meant insane depreciation unless you were to keep it for the very long haul (10++ years).

Good point about lacking swept back headlights, which IMNSHO are little more than the epitome of lazy lemminglike styling. Caddy design language doesn't buy into it. Cars maybe shouldn't look like insects and cartoon characters.

stever

"A day of driving during the press introduction at Virginia International Raceway here &#151; a fast, challenging road course near the North Carolina border &#151; revealed a Camaro that evokes blue-ribbon sport coupes like the BMW M3. Except that the ZL1 surely gets around V.I.R. much quicker.

Given the tenuous nature of G.M.&#146;s survival a few years ago, it&#146;s faintly amazing that Chevy now builds a muscle car capable of lapping the Nürburgring hot on the heels of a machine like the Porsche 911 Turbo. Call the ZL1 heavy, call it expensive, but don&#146;t call it just a Camaro with a supercharger."

Muscles on Its Muscles, but Nuance in Its Soul (NY Times)

motorcity6

New York Times-had to be all positive!!!!!

At $50k plus it should move compared to my favorite ride , 71 SS350 which cost me $3k, new out the door..broomed at 90k for $2k after 18 mos of use..Bought my wife a new 82 Z28 which was a total flop, and was finally put to rest by the 2nd owner due to an engine fire..No injuries..

Have sat in the new Camaros, the seating position is not good, visibility is not good, however the only upbeat side to owning one is "sunroof" availability.."Sport suspension" is available with the V-6, however you get the fat tires in the rear and a different size for the fronts..Makes rotation a trip to the tire store for new "treads", not a winner!!! Mustang GT still on the plate, shopping for the bargain, downside is "lack of sunroof availability."

Having owned 34 GM models to date I could really cover the gamut starting with the 46 Chevrolet thru a 2006 Pontiac Grand Prix GT, and a couple million miles, also throw in some great Ford rides , 2 Porsches, and 3 Chrysler offerings=53 cars to dissect..Only 1 blown engine and 1 roll over, all on the same car, 48 Chevy Fleetmaster, new engine, and body shop, it lived to see another day..Prior to legal driving age, I was given a 35 Ford w/48 V-8, great "training wheels" which lead to the partial destruction of the 48 Chevy..

Have a great "Memorial Day", one of the advantages of being a Hoosier I did see the first "500" after WWII..

stever

The pundits surely were expecting a NYT's review to be all glowing about a foreign car, not a Chevy.

I've been enjoying reading the Detroit News since I've moved to Michigan. Certainly a different perspective on the auto industry that you get anywhere else (and yeah, lots of positive coverage).

Wide open Indy this year - none of the new engines (Chevy, Honda and Lotus) have gone 500 miles in competition. Someone's going to get bragging rights.

uplanderguy

Come on, Steve, they can't give those Camaro ZL-1's away!

uplanderguy

Steve, please post that article over on that 'other' GM board if you haven't already!

stever

Okay, but if I get yelled at for spamming, it's all your fault.

Here you go - win your own. US residents only.

Get the Gift of Speed Sweepstakes (It's an official Chevy link btw, so you'll only get official Chevy spam information after you enter).

uplanderguy

"Geez, they have to give those things away!" LOL

roadburner

downside is "lack of sunroof availability."

Wow, different strokes I guess. I had to fight Munich tooth and nail to get them to build my 3 Series without a hole in the roof. And the fact that the Mazdaspeed 3 could only be had with three pedals and without a sunroof were major selling points for me.
That said, I really wish that Chevy would build the Code 130R; I want a quick RWD sporty car that doesn't weigh as much as my 1974 Monte Carlo. @3000 lbs. and 350-400 bhp would be perfect.

uplanderguy

No sunroof...that's one thing we can agree on. I never buy sunroofs in contemporary cars, as for me they limit headroom (I have short legs but a long torso). Add to that I'm cheap, and I'll never buy a sunroof.

My '63 Studebaker Lark Daytona hobby car had a factory folding-cloth sunroof where the opening was almost the entire top of the roof, but that car had hat-headroom even with a sunroof! (Of course, there were no electrical gizmos involved, either.)

uplanderguy

Thanks..already the reply, "Yeah, but, but....wait 'til the Shelby comes out...it'll be better and probably won't have the gas-guzzler tax."

We'll see, but I have a hard time believing over 600 hp won't get the gas-guzzler tax. I could be wrong.

Note to that poster: The ZL-1 is out now. The Shelby you're talking about is not.

roadburner

I never use a sunroof- I'll bet that we haven't opened the sunroof on my wife's SUV a dozen times in the seven years we've owned it. And on the BMW I referred to, the sunroof adds nearly 70 lbs to the highest point on the car. As a race car fabricator once told me, "it has the same practical effect as bolting a car battery to the roof."

stever

Some pundit somewhere (maybe my link?) chided the (current?) GT as being a bit rough and unrefined.

But what do you want if you're going 200 mph?

All in all, I'd rather have a Volt. :P

uplanderguy

In all actuality, I'd be more interested in the '14 Impala.

That said, it's refreshing to read such positive news when others only can say that GM is behind everybody else...and continue to post on a GM forum.

imidazol97

the ATS is now being built in Lansing.



http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/201- 2/Jul/0726_ats.html

lemko

Nice! Maybe I can get a little sister for my DTS Performance?

imidazol97

talks about the ATS.

The manual transmission that felt too stiff and balky on regular roads became just-so in slap-it-hard track driving. And the automatic in the V-6, in "sport" mode, recognized when you approached a corner and downshifted to let a lower gear help you scoot through. And it held the gear all the way through the corner, resisting an automatic's normal urge to upshift too soon.

&#149;Dynamics. Defined here as how the car moves when and where it should, and doesn't when and where it shouldn't. All good.

Steering's nicely centered, responsive. Suspension is firm, but not harsh. Optional FE3 magnetic suspension is compliant and firms up fast when the road demands. Brakes are wonderfully free of the spongy-pedal feel, and they seem to haul the car down promptly from high speed.

&#149;No start-stop. Applause. Nobody's done it right yet. It saves fuel by killing the engine when it needn't run, such as at long stoplights. But restarts are jerky and clunky in most vehicles, including the BMW 3 Series that is ATS' rival.

ATS is a delight, and its unique platform will migrate across the ocean to GM's troubled Opel in Germany, and perhaps into Chevrolet or Buick sedans.

About the Cadillac ATS

&#149;What? New-from-scratch small Cadillac four-door sedan meant to challenge BMW 3 Series. Available with one of two new four-cylinder engines or a V-6. Rear-wheel drive (RWD) or all-wheel drive (AWD).

&#149;When? On sale late this summer.

&#149;Where? Made at Lansing, Mich.

&#149;How much? $33,990 to about $55,000, with shipping.

&#149;What makes it go? Base: 2.5-liter four-cylinder rated 202 horsepower at 6,300 rpm, 191 pounds-feet of torque at 4,400 rpm.

Optional: 2-liter turbocharged four rated 272 hp at 5,500 rpm, 260 lbs.-ft. at 1,700 rpm.

Optional: 3.6-liter V-6 rated 321 hp at 6,800 rpm, 275 lbs.-ft. at 4,800 rpm.

Six-speed manual or automatic transmission.

&#149;How big? Exterior's within half an inch of a BMW 3 Series sedan every which way. ATS is 182.8 inches long, 71.1 in. wide, 55.9 in. tall on a 109.3-in. wheelbase. Weighs 3,315 to 3,629 lbs. Passenger space: 90.9 cubic feet; trunk, 10.2 cu. ft.

Tows up to 1,000 lbs.

Turning circle diameter: 36.4 to 38.1 ft., depending on model and tires.

&#149;How thirsty? Government has rated only the base, 2.5-liter RWD model: 22 mpg city, 33 highway, 26 in city/highway mix.

GM 2-liter RWD to be about 22/32/26; V-6 RWD, 19/28/23. AWD will be 1 or 2 mpg less.

2.5-liter automatic test car registered 28.5 mpg (3.51 gallons per 100 miles) on hilly, rural two-lane roads with occasional hard acceleration and use of manual-shift mode in the automatic.

2-liter turbo manual test car registered 23.2 mpg (4.31 gal./100 mi.) on hilly, two-lane back roads.

All engines burn regular; Cadillac recommends but doesn't require premium for 2-liter turbo four. Tank holds 16 gallons.

&#149;Overall: Bull's-eye.

imidazol97

>I can get a little sister for

Maybe a big brother that knows karate.