Lexus LS 400/LS 430

ljflx

Did you test drive the SC430 by any chance?

lenscap

It looks like somebody on clublexus.com has posted photos of the 2004 LS as seen in a foreign magazine.

Go to the forums, and then click on the topic called "New LS430 seen."

If this is in fact the car, the front and rear changes are subtle but should be clear to those familiar with the current LS. The front has slightly larger headlights and a bigger grille. The back shows that while the tailights are the same shape there is less taillight on the trunklid portion, and the orange turn indicator is now clear. Also, the dual exhaust now stick out from the bumper.

paulchiu

Yes, I liked it. But tough to say when compared with the SL500. I think the way the NAV opens and close should be adopted by the LS. Othewrwise, it's nicer than the Z's from BMW, including the overpriced Z8.

ljflx

The SL500 is a spectacular car as is the SC430. It's another one of those situations where you can't go wrong. I found the SC quieter and better riding and the SL to be the better handler. But the latter also rides very well. I'm not as attracted to the SL as I was when it first came out. It's still a beautiful car but the back end should be tucked in a bit. The old SL remains a classic, timeless car in my opinion.

paulchiu

If I had an urge to spend 150K on a 2 seater, I'd get the SL55; not 2 SC's.

I agree that the SL's from 1 and 2 generations ago stood out a lot more than the current model. Perhaps there are just too many models now from everyone.

This is another reason why I bought the LS, as the cues that it borrowed from the previous generation S class were appealing to me. Others might say Lexus copied everything from the previous S's, but I have to say Lexus simply refined on their previous LS and added on the S class strengths. While my current generation S is a fine car, it did not stand out like the previous generation. Similar to the SL's. The E class truly stood out when it first came out with the fish eye lenses. The bulbous E class fenders that flow into the hood was distintive and felt substantial. This could not be said about the current S.

The current LS is probably more unique versus its predecessors than the current S class. Just my opinion.

splogue

I finally got around to having the Lexus Link flash reprogramming service done on my LS430 when it was in for a six-month service. This is the LSC 3LD limited service campaign (is that what they are calling recalls these days?).

To my surprise, the voice prompt is exactly the same as it was before the service. My guess is that this is because my subscription is still active, which means that the prompt that states it is active was already correct, and wasn't changed.

Has anyone else had this done on a car where the service isn't active? Did the voice prompt change?

Just trying to figure out the differences. I expected the prompt to change a *little* bit, if only to reassure me that the service was done correctly.

Sean

bda1

Had the Lexus Link Flash Reprogramming service done on my '01 LS430 last week and she's gone! No voice prompt. Note: my subscription service is not active.

drcomputer

Also had the reprogramming done. She sounds the same. But I still subscribe. The notice did say that the reprogramming gave them the ability to change the voice prompt "in the future". We'll see when that happens.

splogue

Well, this is good news, I think.

After reprogramming, the voice prompt stays the same when subscribed, and when not subscribed, there isn't a voice. Pretty much how it should have been from the beginning.

Sean

paulchiu

CNBC will start reviewing this 2+2 today at 1:45PM. They will continue to test it all week, if you miss it. These are common folks driving it, as well as from the mags.

lenscap

The 2004 LS 430 can be seen on clublexus.com in the LS forum. There are photos of the actual car as it appears on the Toyota/Japan website (where it is the Celsior). The front end changes are subtle but present a more aggressive appearance than today's car.

Also, it seems dealers may have received a teaser brochure on the 2004 LS 430.

gteach26

It seems lexus went with very subtle changes on the '04. I think this is a good thing because I really like the current LS's looks. If you've seen the pics, I think the slightly elongated headlights and the white stripes on the rear lights add a nice gentle touch of "differentiation" without offending current owners. That is, of course, if these pics are the real thing.

lenscap

After checking out the Toyota/Japan site I noticed another change to the 2004 - the front passenger airbag no longer has a separate "cover" - the dash is one piece and the airbag is "hidden" like it is in the RX 330.

pat

prattster, pls check your email.

syswei

Starting in December, Autospies started predicting http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000112822.cfm) a "total body redesign" for the 2004 LS. It would be hard to be more wrong.

Links from the ClubLexus site
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/Al...rior/index.html
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Celsior/exteri- - - - - or/index2.html
make it pretty clear that the changes are rather subtle, and that the car bears no resemblence to the sketches from the autospies article.

My personal theory is that autospies KNOWINGLY publishes MADE-UP theories in order to generate interest in and traffic to their site. If I had been close to buying a 2003 and held off because of their journalistic trash, I would be flaming mad.

paulchiu

Actually I was glad autospies published those pictures, as it helped in my 2003 LS decision. It really depend on one's personal choice and taste. As is always in the purchase of a car. The Toyota site photos of the new Lexus LS430; if true for 2004 reflects the difference analogous to a sports edition S500 versus the base model.

Since I didn't like the sports edition with the ground effects and sportier wheels on a S500 anyway (when I got it), I am glad I didn't wait for the 2004 and lost the chance at a very nice discount on an ultra LS430.

splogue

The changes for 2004 appear to be pretty subtle. They are discussing it over in clublexus, and it is funny to see the people divide into two camps: those that think the differences are big, and those who can't see any differences at all. Heck, I own one and I found it very difficult to detect the changes.

Of course, in real life they will be a bit more obvious. Nothing like the big changes predicted by Autospies, though. I guess that isn't surprising given that manufacturers in this market segment are very reluctant to change appearances too drastically.

Sean

ljflx

I missed CNBC today. What was the reaction to the SC430?

I started to appreciate your comments about the old S-class vs. todays LS. I dropped my 5 year old off for swimming lessons today and parked right next to a 1999 (I guess) S-320. I walked off about 20 feet and turned around and realized how much nicer the LS looked than the S - to my eyes. I'm also glad they are not changing the LS much. It's a very stately and elegant car and the two exterior things they are doing - improving the front and rear lights a bit will make the car even more stately. It will be interesting to see it in person. I've also been told that there will be a lot more customization available in 2004.

Lastly - in dropping off my daughter today at this swim camp I noticed a very familiar figure walking through the parking lot. I had to do a double take to make sure I was right but when he gave his classic baby face smile there was no doubt that our favorite Sunday night figure - Tony Soprano - has his kid enrolled in the same swim camp. He was looking for a home in my town last year and he must have bought here or nearby. He's slimmed down a bit so you may see a slimmer Tony when the show goes back on. Anyway he walked to his vehicle and drove off. And what does James Gandolfini drive? The type of vehicle that befits his character - in my opinion. A black Toyota Landcruiser. Anyway my wife does the honors for the next three days and I will see if I can locate him again on Friday.

carguyay

I have read and learned a lot from this message board in the last year. I have been waiting to buy my first Lexus LS430 hoping to see a little more change in 2004.I looked at BMW, MB,JAG etc and have decided that I want the LS. Buy a 2003 and save thousands or get the 2004 and pay premium.The decision is always the same no matter how much you have to spend. New model, old model, used or lease. Talk to the accountant, wife or friends its still a decision made by the person writing the check. I live in the Chicago area, 6-7 dealers and I just got back from 5-6 visits to dealers in S. California some of them impressive some just so so. Please keep posting all this great info.I hope to buy one this fall. Forgive my typing I only hunt and peck. Larry

ljflx

I don't see much change in the tail lights unless I am missing something. The front lights are a little more reminiscent of the old LS400. I think the sharpening of those front lights give the car a bolder and better look. I've always liked the side profile.

Paul - if the changes are that subtle than you made a great choice getting a late 2003 model at the reduced price. That is a lot of car for the price you paid. It also wouldn't matter if they allowed for more customization in 2004 as the Ultra has it all.

The next real question is when does the real big body style change occur - 2005 or 2006. I believe it is the latter but I've also read it could be as early as 2005.

lenscap

Below are the changes to the back end of the 2004 LS 430. You're right, the changes are very hard to notice. I hope this helps.

1. Tailights lose the orange turn indicator in favor of clear
2. Tailights when applied are LED (like on the RX 330)
3. The inner sides of the tailights (closer to the license plate) are angled out more - at the top of the lights, they come to a point right where they meet the trunk line instead of going up and then having a little horizontal piece on the trunk
4. The chrome bar above the license plate extends past the license plate opening instead of stopping where the opening ends
5. The dual exhaust now shows through the bumper

paulchiu

I am happy you share the same feelings on the LS430 / previous S connection.....

As for the SC430, I missed it too. Got a conference call and.....

I think they will have another reviewer today after 1PM. This is an all week review thing, culminating with the 2 business anchors driving the car on Friday and rating it. So far, they liked the Jag XKR the most, Cayenne next. These are pretty objective reviews from middle income everyday folks like ourselves.

The 2004 new colors might look real hot with the ground effects/sports accents. Perhaps it might start to appeal to 20 somethings with Wall Street money and no kids or wives....

oac3

The pictures of the redesigned '04 LS430 show the same trend Lexus took in the '93 and '98 redesigns or touch-ups. Exterior and interior changes appear subtle to the untrained eyes, but the *felt* changes are real indeed. The '98 2nd generation model had such outstanding changes from the '95-'97 year that you'd only notice if you drive the two versions, and not merely from looking at pictures. 5-speed VVT-i tranny, front dual headlights, wood-leather steering and shift knob, hp boost by 30hp, and torque boost by equal amounts, self-levelling HID lights, rear center seat head rest, hard disk-based NAV, etc.... These are REAL changes that made the post-98 versions more elegant (in my opinion) compared to the pre-'98 versions. I predict the "subtle" 04 changes will follow similar pattern - understated changes but with REAL substance, much along the Japanese culture of understated yet unmistakable quality and refinement unlike the "in-your-face" Mercedes or BMW designs.

Here is a potential list of features you will not *see* in the 2004 LS 430 pictures:

6-speed tranny
Smart Key
New NAv software
Back-up camera
AWD
etc

These features are not apparent looking at pictures, but they are real changes. Something tells me the MY '06/'07 full redesign (3 years after '04) will make these changes even more real in retrospect, in same fashion as the '01 vs '98 redesign changes were much different aestetically and quantitatively.

lenscap

The "real" changes other than cosmetics you speak of have for the most part been confirmed. They are (note there will not be AWD):

1. 17" standard wheels with 18" option
2. Gauge needles changed from red to white
3. Generation 4 nav system
4. 6-speed auto transmission w/Sequential Shift
5. Adaptive front lighting
6. Driver/passenger knee airbags
7. Tire pressure monitor
8. Rear seat vanity mirrors and swivel reading lights
9. Moonroof and power rear shade now standard
10. Optional Smart Key
11. Optional pre-collision system
12. Optional back-up camera and Bluetooth wireless (w/nav)
13. Optional rear heated/cooled seats
14. Optional satellite radio

oac3

These are wonderful features in the 2004 release. Wow ! They are even more than I imagined will be on the car this early, but better now than later. It surely makes the '04 a much better buy, imo, than the '03, assuming the price points are not too far apart (<$5K, give or take, I imagine).

I am really going after the 2007 LS 430/500 at which time I would *grandfather* my current '99 LS to my (then) 18-yr-old daughter for her freshman year in College. That's the plan/goal.

Any thoughts on the actual aestetics of the 2004 LS ? Like/dislike ? I hope we do not hear it looks like the S-class again. That is something best left out of this forum.

lenscap

You are welcome for the 2004 info. Wow - your daughter will be lucky. If I knew of a girl in college with an LS I may have tried to date her just for her car.

I love the current LS and think what they did to the 2004 is subtle yet just enough to keep it fresh. I'll have to see the front in person, but I'm sure I'll like it.

splogue

I agree with lenscap about the freshening. I think the little changes they are making will be subtle, but still an improvement.

I've always thought the front headlights should look a little more sculptured, and I was actually a bit surprised to see the lack of LEDs and the orange stripe on the back lights. Part of this is that I was looking at pre-owned versions of the BMW 740il at the time, and the orange stripe was the only change from one model year to the next (2000-2001?).

Sean

ljflx

Thanks for your pointers on the tail lights and new features on the 2004.

Where have you picked up all the data on the 2004? I'm glad about the tire pressure monitor, the 18" wheel option and the rear shade. Actually I like everything you listed. I'm curious to see the new Nav system and to hear the satellite radio.

Right now I'm seriously shopping SUV's and have decided to put off a late year 2003 purchase and wait for the 2004's. Heavy favorite remains the LX and I'm trying to decide on buying vs. leasing. So since you are so up to date on 2004 LS I'm hoping you know what is going on with the LX. I'll trade the night vision option for the back-up camera option in less time than it'll take you to blink your eye. Do you have any data on the 2004 LX470??

OAC3 - I was starting to miss you. Glad to see you back in action.

paulchiu

Whatever you decide on the LX, don't lease. The residual even with 10K a year was no better than 47% at Ray Catena. At that level, you can lease a more expensive Range Rover (although noisier and smaller inside) for much less. Residual on the 2004 Range Rover will be 61% or higher. Similar residual on the Cayenne Turbo.

Speaking of the backup camera. I have to say the current parking assist with the positional indicators is far more advance than a single LED in the S500/S600. There is no way to know that your back right is near a vulnerable spot on the S. With the LS, you can clearly see where the danger is.

syswei

I think I read somewhere reputable, but I can't remember where, that the 04 LX will have a backup camera. But didn't the current LX come out in 98...are we going to get an all-new one in 05 maybe? Suggest you check the LX boards on clublexus if there isn't good info on edmunds.

The laundry list of 04 LS features probably came from autospies: http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000168284.cfm

ljflx

I'm amazed at that residual as the residual on my current $62k LX is $38k or 61% after 3 years and 36k miles. In fact when I ran the numbers a few years ago it was more prudent to lease and buy after 3 years rather than buy upfront. It was a close call and I assumed a conservative interest rate (3 year CD rate at the time) on what I would be passing up if I laid out the money upfront. When I get serious about it I'll let you know the residuals I get. Right now its a late year item with a delivery in late December or early January.

Traditionally LX470's and TLC's have always held their values well. I'll have to check the prices of used (sorry, pre-owned) LX470's on Edmunds.

ljflx

I was mistaken - my buyout is $36k which is still 58% of sticker. Now I quickly checked Edmunds TMV's and actually the 2000 TLC and LX470 sell for more than the 2000 RR. In fact the Lexus resales around $4k more while the TLC is about $1k more. If I remember right the RR was several thousand more than the LX in 2000. So it seems the resale of an LX has held up far better than a Range Rover. I'll doublecheck but I think I got it right.

The TLC and LX are in perfect step with each other. Everyone always says the Lexus is $10k more but load up the TLC the way most dealers bring them in and your within $3k or so of the LX - at least that was the case when I was shopping back then.

paulchiu

It appears that whenever a new revamped model comes out; the residuals are set quite high. This could be hubris from the manufacturers, thinking their new car will hold its value. Or simply to drive demand for leases.

When the S500 was out in 2000, the residuals on a S500 was near 75%. Looking at the 58% now, you can see just how crazy DCX managers were back then. My payments on my 2001 S500 at 100,131 was 1430 a month on a 3/30K plan. When I priced a 2003 LS430 back in May (in its 3rd year out), the lease was close to 1100 a month on a 62K car. This is mostly residual, as interest rates on high end cars have really not dropped that much since 2001.

Anyhow, the LX has really kept its value. Great demand as well as killer JD Powers quality awards surely help. The opposite for the RR.

Porsche actually were conservative with their 60's residual on the Cayenne. We'll see how that turns out. I hope that the Cayenne does not suffer the perils of the Mercedes M Class.

ljflx

I believe we get a totally redesigned LX in 2006 with the LS. From everything I've been told it will be very high end but will move to the Sequoia platform which is a bigger truck than I really want. I am sure it will be awesome and I won't be at all surprised if it gets a v-10 engine option.

Did you see the Lexus V-10 GT in the Ampersand section of Road and Track that the mag says will come out in 2005?

coo1

Can you guys tell me what is the best deal you guys got on a 2003 LS 430 in recent months? How many $ below invoice? I am in the DC area, but would appreciate any feedback. Thanks

paulchiu

I am not sure if they are going "below (dealer) invoice (cost), Jay. Toyota ain't doing that badly. You can try bargaining at a few grand above dealer cost and see what happens. A lot will depend on what's already on their lots.

Good luck.

blackls430

I am in right below you in North Carolina and couldn't get the local dealers to do much on price so I shopped the large markets where I could drive one back from a business trip. I was shopping for a 2003 LS 430 with sunroof/seat climate control/trunk mat option ~$58000.

The nearest dealership wouldn't give me pricing over the phone- lost a sale. Second nearest dealership said they would not compete with another market- lost me too.

The closest dealership at first told me they would go back a $1000 MSRP. Not enough for me to buy. Called back and talked to a business manager telling him how the first sales guy wouldn't deal. He got me in touch with another salesman. Went in to the dealership to get the wifes color combo choice with intention of buying from another market where I already had a better price offer. Wife liked the black but the parchent was easier to keep clean.

After the test drive, they gave me a price of $54,999. So about $3000 of MSRP. Still not good enough. Being the 28 of July, they wanted me to buy badly. Ended up with a sweet deall..... Also got 2.9%/60 month financing (which ended 31July) to boot!

gteach26

Carsdirect.com Type in a few zips and see what you come up with. Their pre-negotiated prices can sometimes be very attractive.. sometimes they stink.. either case, give them a try.

jamesfletcher2

syswei,

Special thanks for the links to the Toyota Japan site with the 2004 LS pictures. I have been traveling for business and had to make up a few pages of posts.

The pictures seem to be just like the LS mule that I saw when driving back to the NYC area from the West in June - that I mentioned in a prior post. The dead give away was the rear-end and wheels. The test mule I saw had some kind of black bra treatment and other black taping on the front so it is difficult to compare the front-end. In my previous post I mentioned my surprise on the rear-end changes that I was not really expecting based on Autospies and other speculation. I also believe that I mentioned that I was really impressed with the new wheels.

My big decision is similar to some the other posts. Specifically, whether to trade my current LS on a restyled 2004 or wait for a redesigned LS in 2006/07.

At this point I am focusing on the 2006/07 but I might give in to temptation on the 2004. Since I purchased my LS and it is free-and-clear I can just try to mark time if my patience can prevail.

Jim

ljflx

The residuals are so heavily tied to the time of year you buy. I wonder how they calculate leasing programs so well throughout a car's fiscal year. When I leased in late December 2001 I had a 62% residual on a $62k car. Based on Edmunds TMV that car is being sold by dealers today at $42k or 68%. I'm sure that by December it'll be reselling in the 62-64% range. Now what is interesting is that the 2002 is selling at $50k and had the same $62k price. So it has retained 80% of its value. Thus if we accelerate forward about two months I'm sure that car will still be in the 75-80% range and it will lose 1% per month after that reaching the mid 60's by the beginning of the 2005 model year. But I'm also sure most residuals on the early 2002 leases were under that figure - probably in the 62% range after 3 years and 36k miles. A fellow bus passenger (in my old bus commuting days) had leased the 1990 LS400 and had a buyout of $16k. He ended up buying the car because the resale was still in the $20 - 25k range when his lease was over. He sold it a few years later for around the $16k buyout he had. If I was a dealer I guess I would want people leasing through Jan/Feb and buying from March forward. Maybe that is why the lease deals are worse later in the model year.

lenscap

The info I posted on the 2004 LS 430 was the same info from autospies, but it was also confirmed by my dealer.

I try to keep up with every Lexus model, but I don't know anything about the LX...sorry. Although I have heard what you mentioned, that it will be moved in a few years from the Land Crusier platform to one shared with the Sequoia.

paulchiu

Just got this email from one of the dealers that I visited before buying my 2003 Ultra....

(Please excuse if one of you already mentioned it!)

Hi Paul,

2004 is not yet here. But we should see it very soon.

Some of the new standard features:
6 Speed Sequential-Shift Automatic
Adaptive Front Lighting System
Driver's & Front Passenger's Knee Airbags
Tire Pressure Monitor
Lighted Rear Seat Vanity Mirrors
Satellite Radio Ready Head Unit
Moonroof (previously optional)
Power Rear Sunshade (previously optional)
LED Brake Lights
Dual Exhaust Pipes

New Optional Features:
Navigation w/Back-up Camera
Bluetooth
SmartAccess Entry
Rear Climate Control Seats
Enhanced Air Purifier

Thanks,
Andrew

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lexus of Manhattan" (660@leadmanager.webedge.com)

coo1

Thanks to all of you, especially blackls430 for your detailed response. The best I got from the dealerships around here was 3500 below MSRP. Probably will be looking at some other makes.

michael_mattox

Don't give up:

I have searched the country for a Luxury car in the past and found California and New England were the best places to buy..Mid-West isn't too bad either.

Calling Dealers and explaining you are a serious buyer but live in another state helps. Describe the exact car you want and if they have it in stock you will get your best price.

Here is a link that will help of Lexus Elite Dealers http://www.lexus.com/dealers/eol.html

Now should be a great time to start looking for an O3

michael_mattox

P.S.

Someone wrote in reciently that Costco has an arrangement with Lexus Dealers that can get you a new car at $1000 over invoice?

Good Luck.

syswei

Don't be afraid to buy lexus from out of state. The local dealer should still do a good job on servicing an outside-purchased car if he wants to do well in lexus' internal quality surveys. It appears to me that the dealer gets some sort of compensation for doing well in the surveys.

anthonycecil

It is really rare to need warranty work, and any profesional dealership is in business to repair cars. So who really cares if you have to make an appointment, unless the car doesn`t work. Lexus roadside assistance is real, and I have needed it in the past.. The dealer doesn`t come into play if you are away from the local area. My luck is I am on trip, and car breaks. Tony Ps My car goes in the shop for the fifteen thousand mile deal, and it took five days before they could take it. I have a superb relationship. I also doubt if the dealership really cares that much anymore, as there are a sea of Lexus cars out there. Twelve years ago, it was a different story, and I am glad I was around to experience such a wonderful experience.

wwest

And all so very reliable that no dealer service is really required.

ljflx

My dealer still pampers me to no end after all these years. It feels the same - if not more enhanced than 1995.

paulchiu

Yeeck!

That LS450 looks TOO MUCH like a GS430 body with ES330 length. Thankfully, these prelims will have to go through a board of Toyota fogies before it gets to see US shores.