Toyota Camry 2006 and earlier

sebring95

Seems to be well shielded or has good suspension because I've never heard of anyone having trouble with it. All of my V6 models had that hook in the exhaust that looks like it could get ripped off easily. However, I never had anything like that happen. I even lived two years out a road that resembled the surface of the moon and never replaced any exhaust components in the 200K I had the car. I agree that it looks like trouble, but doesn't seem to be.

ecarmack

I once had a steeply inclined driveway, and my Camry's pipes would scrape the road when pulling in and out. I learned to make a sharper turn, and was able to avoid the scraping most of the time. Other than that unique situation, I did not have other problems. I agree the design of the pipes is somewhat unsightly, and it seems to stand out more on this latest generation.

canadiancl

I think the good thing is that the part of the pipe that hangs the lowest is right between the rear wheels so it would follow the motion of the wheels up and down if the car rolls over a bump. However, I would still be concerned that if the car drives (straddle) over, say, a large rock, or if one wheel goes into a big pot hole, the pipe will be scraped and damaged.
I just wonder if there is a technical restriction that prevents Toyota from tucking the thing away cleanly?

lawren2

experience the problems I had with my car?

In Jan 2000 ( 68k miles )all the dashboard lights came on. The ABS, the "you need a bulb replaced" pictogram and to make things interesting the REVERSE light came on whenever you braked. Oh yes there was a "washboard" effect when you braked as well.

We had to replace the transmission last year and the car was never quite right again... The dealer fixed the short but it had already burnt through the cellanoid....

Last month all the symptoms returned again. This time the dealer says brakes. My better half and I discussed it and we traded in the car, this time for a Honda EX( Accord did not have a 6 cylinder in '94 ).

Has anyone had this problem?

Why would you choose to spend $3k more for a Toyota over a Honda?

Thanks in advance,
L

alpha01

Many people have different priorities. Some prefer, for example, the softer ride and smoother transmission performance offered by the Camry, while others would prefer the handling precision offered by the Accord. Some would prefer the availability of Side Curtain Airbags, Vehicle Stability Control and a Navagation System, plus numerous standard (on the XLE, to compare to the EX) minor convenience features offered by the Camry such as the mock woodgrain trim or the multi-information display (with clock, outside temperature, instant and average fuel economy, driving range, average speed and elapsed time functions, and steering wheel-mounted controls) or the JBL Premium audio system. Others would prefer the value offered by Honda's "no options" strategy. Finally, some of us are just anal and want the newest offering available to suit our needs, while some of us prefer the discount pricing offered on a 5 year old design. I think they are both great cars, it just comes down to a matter of preference, a statement that I would also extend to the Accord vs. Passat question, which you did not pose, but could have by stating the same thing: Why would you choose to spend $3k more for a VW than for an Accord? Or for that matter, do you really need an Accord? You could save 5 grand by choosing a Civic EX. My point: it all boils down to NEEDS and PREFERENCES.
Happy motoring in your new Accord, I'm sure it will serve you well for years.

~alpha

coolguyky7

It's an 8 year old car. You have to expect that sometime will eventually fail. It was designed by humans and humans make errors. Therefore, no machine is perfect. Toyotas tend to hold up better than a Honda anyway. I know some people with a 96 Civic who say it's beginning to come apart. And I know a girl with a 91 Civic...cruise, AC don't work anymore. Rust is in several spots and it leaks oil...a problem that has been fixed several times but still occurs. Are Hondas good? Yes, they are; they are better than almost all other brands but Toyota has always been one step ahead.

canadiancl

Ohh, I don't know if you can make a blanket statement like that. Styling and pricing are 2 "missteps" that come to mind.

alpha01

Although certainly not everyone has the same experiences, and you cannot really make a blanket statement, I can attest first hand to what coolguy said. My first car, a well maintaned 94 Civic DX purchased used in 98 ( a car I lovED) cost me so much in repairs and maintenance that I had to sell it. The head gasket blew at 97K and after that was replaced the car never ran correctly again.
~alpha

pat

A major newspaper is looking to interview folks who learned how to drive stick in their adulthood, and either fell in love or hated it. Also welcome is any input on why people love to drive stick, and any unusual anecdotes about how you learned etc.

Hope to hear from you before Feb 22 via the Talk to the Press discussion or at jfallon@edmunds.com with your thoughts and contact information.

Thanks as always,

Jeannine Fallon
PR Director, Edmunds.com

ironworkers

Press Release

SOURCE: Automotive News

Toyota, Owners Spar Over Engine Sludge Problem,
Automotive News Reports

DETROIT, Feb. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- A dangerous sludge buildup that can destroy an engine is a potential problem for owners of 3.3 million late model Toyota Camrys and Siennas, the trade paper Automotive News is reporting in a copyrighted article on its Web site,
www.automotivenews.com.

The newspaper reports that more than 3,000 owners of certain 1996 to 2001 models already have complained to Toyota, which steadfastly has refused to cover the problem under its five-year/60,000 powertrain warranty.

The automaker has blamed the problem on poor vehicle maintenance by the owners, although many owners have produced receipts for regular oil changes performed within recommended periods, Automotive News said.

Just this week, Toyota changed its policy. The company began sending letters to more than 3.3 million owners warning of the problem and offering to fix it for owners who can produce receipts showing ``reasonable efforts'' to maintain their vehicle.

The complete story and details about which engines and models are involved are available on the Automotive News Web site and will be published in the Feb. 11, 2002, edition of Automotive News.

Automotive News is the industry's leading trade publication. It is published in Detroit each Monday by Crain Communications, Inc.

SOURCE: Automotive News
----------------------------------------------
[my comment]
Very unusal press release from the respected weekly newspaper covering automotive industry.
I don't recall the last time they alerted media
on upcoming breaking story.

Impacting heavily Monday...
possible front page cover story.

jf01

Does anybody know if the 2002 Camry V6 is included in this family of engines? Since it is the 3.0L V6, I'm assuming it might be. Does this mean there's the possibility of engine sludge forming in the new Camry's V6? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.

alpha01

apply also to the 2.2 4clyinder used in the Camry? Cause the aritcle claims "3.3 million late model Camry and Sienna..." 3.3 million seems a high number for ONLY the V6 Camrys and all Siennas from 1996-2001. Also, why does the sludge problem not occur in the ES300, Avalon, or the RX300??? Or did the article just not state that it does?
~alpha

silvercrown

I didn't see where they mentioned the V6 engine specifically in the article, except that it mentioned the Sienna. I have a 2000 LE V6 and I have not yet received such a letter. However, I have been getting the oil changed every 3,000 miles/3 months (since I bought the car in 1999), which is more frequently than they recommend. Could this be my saving grace? Or could it still be a problem?

sandman46

We had this problem with our car, found the sludge at 80K. Did every oil change at 7.5k at the dealer also, as stated in our manual. Toyota mechanic told me to get rid of it, which we did soon after. Wish Toyota would've come clean earlier, we liked the car and wanted to keep it longer. Shame on them!

strager

Cliffy,

I've noticed that this year, Toyota has put mandatory spoilers on versions of the Camry and Corolla, as well as lots of body colored plastic on the Matrix. This is apparently to make these vehicles look sporty and appeal to the younger generation.

Even though I'm from the X generation, I find these add-ons a little tacky. For example, to me the spoiler looks silly on a large family car like the Camry, and I prefer the cleaner look of the Matrix without all the plastic skirts and spoilers. I think Toyota is perhaps trying too hard to be hip or cool.

My question is: do most people really care for these add-ons, and in your opinion is this a misguided attempt by Toyota to appeal to the younger crowd? Since you are in the business, your insight would be appreciated.

fwatson

I don't own a Toyota, but I thought I would pass this on to help answer some of the above questions about what cars are covered. It is from a Toyota news letter posted at The Complaint Station, and seems to also have been posted at Edmunds.

"We are offering assistance under this special program to owners of 1997-2001 Camrys, Solaras, Siennas, Avalons, Celicas and Highlanders as well as 1997-2001 Lexus ES300s and RX300s and are contacting them with a letter."

That is all I know on the subject. The complete letter is at:

http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/cgi-bin/frames.cgi?topic514

Look for the thread "The Facts About Toyota¡¦s Special Policy Adjustment"

texvam

I had the work done at Joe Myers Toyota.

I'm still experiencing the rubbing noise, I'm going to take it in this week. I noticed that the outside chrome stripping is not flush with the door frame. I hope when they replace the stripping, it will stop the noise.

What dealer(s) have you dealt with? Happy with the service?

coolguyky7

There is word that a line of new engines will soon be made, probably impacting the Camry since its V6 is considerable old. Supposedly, a new 3.0L (?) 3.3L and 3.5/.6 liter will be available. Very interesting! I bet this will go into a refreshed Avalon as well along with the 2003 larger Sienna.

alpha01

Actually, the 3.0V6 really ISNT that old compared to how long many car companies use an engine design and just continually modify it. For example, the straight 6 in the current GS/IS Lexus traces its roots (if I am not mistaken) to the old 190hp I-6 of the Toyota Cressida, itself tracing back to the 2.8L I-6 of the first 6 cylinder Supra way back in the early 80s. Its all just a matter of evolution.
~alpha

8u6hfd

The GS/IS use the JZ series.

Older MKI, MKII, & MKIII Supras use "M" series engines, as does the Cressida.

Back to engine sludge...there are some who swear by 3000 mile oil changes....and those folks on the www.camryman.org forum rarely suffer from sludge.

railroad17

How would you know if you have the engine sludge problem? I have a 97 Camry and a 98 Sienna.

andrelaplume

I hav a '95 Rav...it's had it's problems since new including a rough idle while at a stop. The problem was made better when the Engine was replaced (another story - no cost to me) Still the idle just seems rough at times when the car is stopped. I have read a few similar notes about the Camry.

Is this a trait of the car/Toyotas. I find it very annoying.

How about rattles? Are the Camry's rattle free?

cliffy1

Our SE models are selling pretty well, so I assume there is a genuine demand for these items you don't like. If you want to avoid them, select a model that doesn't have them.

lawren2

Thanks. I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with your response.

Lawren

alpha01

Isn't it nice that Camry owners and Accord owners can get along so well. Keep enjoying your Accord.
~alpha01

silvercrown

I spoke to the dealership where I take my 2000 Camry LE V6 for service, about this oil sludge problem. The Service Manager said that this issue applies more to people who have purchased used Camrys which were not maintained properly by the former owners. For someone like me, who gets regular and frequent oil changes, this should not be a problem. According to him, the reason why Toyota maintained that they were not responsible initially, is because it was a maintenance issue from the previous owners, not something that Toyota has control over. Nevertheless, Toyota (eventually) decided to "help these people out" with this problem. Aren't they such good guys? ;-)

Is this the gospel truth? Hard to tell. On the surface it makes sense. Hopefully, Toyota is not being unethical and hiding a major problem here. Assuming this information is correct, then if you change your oil regularly, then you should not be affected by this. I really hope that this is the case.

cliffy1

There is a topic here at the TH that deals exclusively with the sludge issue. The bottom line is that a well maintained Toyota will not develop sludge. Toyota's new policy is a one time offer to compensate those who's warranty claims were denied due to improper maintenance. If anybody wants to know more about this issue than they thought existed, head over to the sludge topic.

lawren2

I hope you get 200k carefree miles (with regular maintenance) on your Camry! LOL!

BTW I heard the 4 door Accord is not doing a dramatic styling change ( so Honda; don't you agree?)This is what happens when you come to the point in your live that value outweighs excitement.

L

sandman46

Like I said in an earlier post, I maintained our '96 Camry very well and even relied on the dealership to make sure I was doing things properly. I still developed the sludge and only had the car serviced at our dealer. Funny, they never noticed it until 80k when they gave me a $2200. list of things that needed to be done, new o-rings, 2 motor mounts, the sludge... To be fair, I think Toyota can't or won't admit they screwed up and even now it's like, "those sludge cars were owned by people who didn't maintain them properly"! Why can't people just admit they made a mistake and remedy the situation. The blame game does a disservice to faithful Toyota owners. ( I've owned 4 Toyota's now and plan on buying a 5th next year.)

lasher5

Toyota builds a fine automobile but that is not to say that they have not made some mistakes. Anybody who owned Cressidas or Supras will tell you that Toyota can manufacture defective engines, The 89 Supra I bought new blew a head gasket at 35K. Toyota's answer was I didn't maintain the vehicle properly even though all service was preformed by the dealer at sooner than recommended intervals. It wasn't until the arrival of the inter net that we Supra owners had a forum to discover they all blew head gaskets. It was quite insulting of Toyota to think that I bought the most expensive car they produced at the time and neglected its maintainance. Go look at Consumer Reports back issues for engine reliability of Cressidas and Supras. Big Black Dots. Stone walling is nothing new for Japanese car companys. Remember Mitsubishi got caught tossing customer complaint letters in a storage locker or the defective seat belt recall affecting most Japanese cars. Toyota said it was not their fault, the belts failed because Americans eat food in their cars. Toyota's air of infallibility has not kept me or my family from purchasing their product but I wish they would stop with the "we're perfect" BS.

armtdm

So, basically, buy a Toyota and be locked into 3000 mile oil changes for life (to assure a non sludged engine) or buy another brand and easily go 5000-7,500 between changes with no problem.

Which would you choose????? Kind of a no brainer. Toyota needs to fix the cause of the problem or sales will decline. Personally, IMHO, they haven't build a decent car since 96 but that's my opinion. Living on past laurels while continuing to cheapen the product. Consumer is finally catching on.

bweave

Texvam,
I bought my car at Jay Marks Toyota. I haven't had any experience with the service dept yet, but I had no problems with the sales dept when I bought my car.

As far as the sludge issue is concerned, use a synthetic oil (like Mobil 1), change it every 7500 miles, and there shouldn't be any problem with sludge.

andrelaplume,
my '02 Camry SE is not rattle free. The only car I've ever had that was rattle free was a '95 Chrysler Cirrus.

sinjin_dog

I have 2000 LE with 20K miles on and been using synthetic motor oil from 1000 miles on.
Now, they say their may be "jell" with infrequent oil changes, I am wondering what is the highest mileage people got from their Camry or Sienna, Model year 97-01?
This is my fourth Toyota and aiming for 200k miles out of it again.
Thanks

george00

I recently test drove 2 Camry XLE4s - when I got to around 60 mph, they both developed Rs & Ss, one car from the dashboard, the other from the right wheel-well. Needless to say, I did not buy either of them - I also was unimpressed with all the faux wood. Then I drove a LE4 - no noises from anywhere, it was the quietest car I ever drove; so I bought it. At 600 miles, it's still silent; I sure hope it stays that way. My only complaint is that after an hour or so of driving, the seat feels a bit too hard. I'm going to try a sheepskin cover; if that doesn't work, I may see what an unholsterer can do. Overall, the car's wonderful.

sebring95

I bought a 97 V6 Camry new and drove it for about 70K miles, then turned it over to an employee. Now has about 130K miles and we do 5K oil changes just like our previous two V6 camrys that went to 200K with no problems. To me if it was a design flaw, every one would have the problem, not just some here and there. Maybe I would have had the problem if I'd changed the oil at 7.5K instead of 5K, but I don't know. If that's the case, it's not so much a design flaw as it's over-extending the service intervals. The other thought is that while I try to stick to 5K changes, there are times the car didn't get serviced until after that. Someone shooting for 7.5k might go over which would aggrevate the problem further. I don't know why someone that services the engine at 3K would have sludge when someone going 5K doesn't.

alpha01

We also drove XLE4s and decided the LE 4 was the better value. (We did not observe rattles or squeaks in our test XLE4, however, it came down to features benefit/cost, issue). Going on 2000 miles, this is the best Camry that has ever been in our family. We plan to adhere to the 5000 mile maintenance schedule.
~alpha01

amazon

Also, it's posible that the owners thought they got the oil changed when, in fact, they didn't. Not all people check that the work has been performed on the car. An oil filter can just be wiped off with a rag with degreaser, an it'll look like new. If this is consistently done to a car, I would think that sludge will be a problem.

cliffy1

If you had all maintenance done at the dealer and still got sludge, you are the FIRST one here at the TH. Go read the accounts of those at the Sludge Topic and you will note two distinct trends. First, every "victim" used the 7500 mile maintenance schedule (it is unclear if they hit 7500 miles or 6 months as the manual calls for). Second, not a one used the dealership for all oil changes.

This is not shocking. I've spent some time recently with our service manager, asking about what we have seen in our shop. It turn out, we have had a number of sludged engines come through here. Every one showed obvious signs of improper maintenance. What is an obvious sign? How about the original factory oil filter still on the car with over 20K miles on it. How about the guy with receipts from a local gas station showing a 3K interval for oil changes, but all receipts were sequentially numbered but dated 4 months apart? The list goes on.

I'm sorry to hear of your problems. Honestly, yours is the first case I have heard of the sort. The moderator in the Maintenance and Repair conference is looking for a person like you. Check out the Sludge topic there and respond to Steve.

george00

Yes, of course price was also an issue. In fact, I found nothing like the Camry LE4 at anywhere near the price. Consumer Reports was high on the Passat, but the cheapest Passat I could find with a power seat was over $33,000! The only real competitor was the Altima 2.5S, but (1) it was noisier on the highway; (2) the interior was tacky with black upholstery that looked like it had been discarded by a downscale dentist's office; and (3) my local Nissan dealer, with huge tack-ons like a "Desert Protection Package" for $895, wanted significantly more for the Altima than I paid for the Camry. Actually, there are 2 Toyota dealers in Tucson. At one, the cheapest Camry on the lot carried a $25,000 sticker (an SE, I think, or perhaps an LE6; there were also XLE6s for $30,000+). Fortunately for me, the other dealer had an LE4 with just the power seat and keyless entry options, which brought the car under $20,000, so I grabbed it.

canadiancl

The fly in the ointment in regard to Toyota's explanation on the sludge problem is that you would have to assume that the same percentage of people who drive other brands would also cheap out on the maintenance. So what don't those other brands develop sludge problems?

In my opinion, Toyota's explanation is damage control at best.

Besides, while it is true that frequent and timely oil change will harm nothing other than your pocketbook, there is still some debate as to whether, with modern engine oil, that INFREQUENT oil changes will actually materially harm an engine. I'm sure it would shorten engine life somewhat, but to actually develop debilitating sludge at low mileage?? One wonders.

dmartell

I own a 1997 Camry with 50000 miles on the odometer. I have had many problems with my brakes and have had to replace them 4 times. Has anyone else had a similar problem? I did not expect poor quality from a vehicle that I paid over $20K for and the Toyota brand name.

wain

Are there teenagers driving?
wife leaves emerg brake on?

my 94 4 cyl at 94k has all orig brakes

cliffy1

One other question: Are you a "2 footed" driver?

joel2468

Although I can't believe every case of engine sludge is related to poor maintenance, here are a few owner behaviors I have observed in my 30 years of driving that can contribute to engine and other problems, and the reasons why I won't buy a used car:
1-jackrabbit starts
2-inconsistent speed, even on a clear highway
3-riding the brakes while driving; dragging brakes due to problems
4-using cheapo gas, oil, oil filters
5-underinflated tires
6-air filters not replaced frequently, or EVER
7-not replacing the oil filter with every oil change
8-not changing coolant over the life of the car
9-not fixing problems immediately after they occur, but "living" with them

I cringe when I hear people bragging about the fact that they got 60K miles from their tires, 80K miles on their brakes, 100K miles on their plugs, 10K miles between oil changes, never visiting the dealer (service only at local stations, Jiffy Lubes), etc. All of these contribute to advanced wear and tear on a car, including the engine by increasing operating temperatures.

I'm not saying that Toyota isn't at all culpable here, and I think they were stupid for taking the low road with owners, but many people just treat their cars like crap, and deserve no consideration from the manufacturer. But hey, we're in a time in history where noone is responsible for anything they do, or don't do.

sebring95

"I cringe when I hear people bragging about the fact that they got 60K miles from their tires, 80K miles on their brakes"

So you don't think a set of tires or pads can safely go 60K or 80K respectively? Pulease. How would replacing my pads at 50K (with over half the pad remaining) do anything but waste money? I routinely got 80K from pads on Camrys, and they weren't even worn anywhere near the "squealer". 100K plugs are the norm these days. I agree with alot of what you say but paragraph number two is poo-poo for the most part. 10K between changes is too much, but my Camrys rarely ever seen the inside of a dealership as they are totally inconvenient. 200K before trading two of them (both running perfect I might add), so I guess the quick-lubes nor myself messed them up too much.

toydriver

I have a 2001 camry ce with the 4 cylinder engine. Is this engine one that would be susceptible to the oil-sludge issue?
Only have 4000 mi and have had one oil change by the dealer. No problems to date.

carguy000

My mom has a 2000 Avalon with 41,000 miles and we've not experienced a problem with sludge. Actually, we've had no problems. I read the follwoing article on AUTONEWS.COM (http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302): "Larry Perry, an A.S.E.-Certified Master Technician, repair-shop owner and host of a radio talk show in Orlando, Fla., says he has discovered an apparent design flaw in 3.0-liter V-6s produced between 1999 and 2001. He says he sees a disproportionate number of the engines coming through his shop on 1999 and 2000 Siennas.

"We believe Toyota reduced the size of cooling passages to the cylinder heads in those engines in order to increase combustion temperatures for more of a complete burn to reduce exhaust emissions," Perry said.

Excessive heat makes oil more susceptible to sludge. Perry says he has measured cylinder-head temperatures as high as 260 degrees in those engines - 30 degrees higher than in earlier models.

Perry also points out that this engine series uses a lifter bucket instead of a rocker arm to open and close the valves.

"The lifter sits in the head and gets sludge and debris compacted up underneath it. So when it gets compacted by the camshaft, it's squeezing oil into the combustion chambers," he said.

In this case, he said, the solution is to use only 100 percent synthetic motor oil. "

It mentions some other things like coolant leaking into the engine chamber as well. Mom's been doing her oil changes between 3,000 and 5,000, but maybe we'll stick closer to 3,000 now. The 3.0 v6 is such a good engine, and I hope that Toyota is not trying to hide anything. From what I read though, I do think my mom's Avalon is included in the sludge issue, and I think the other 3.0s in that period would be, too. We love our Avalon though, and I hope it remains sludge free. On a side note, I've been using synthetic oil in my 2001 Honda Civic EX. Since I'm using synthetic oil, I feel a lot better about going to 5,000 miles (severe conditions) and 10,000 miles (normal conditions) before an oil change, which is what the owner's manual calls for. I went 7,000 miles this last time, but probably would've gone longer if I hadn't hit the six month limit when the manual says that the oil needs to be changed regardless of mileage. I'm doing mostly interstate driving when I go home for breaks from school, so I feel very comfortable going that long. Okay, sorry for the long post. Good luck with your cars and have a great day!

jrct9454

...the higher head combustion temps caused by the smaller cooling passages. This is cooking the oil and can cause head warpage and gasket failures. As previously noted, frequent changes are one solution - another is using synthetic oil, which does not cook up nearly as easily as convention oils.

The cooling passages were only recently changed - cars older than the '97s are probably not going to see any symptoms. And given the usual variances in mass production, there are several hundred thousand engines out there that will probably never have the problem...which is no consolation to someone who thought they did all the right things and had the engine fail anyway.

210delray

The 2.2-liter 4-cylinder in the 1997-2001 Camry is one of the engines that could be affected by sludge, according to Toyota's Special Policy Adjustment. But if you change your oil and filter frequently enough, you should have no problems.

My '97 Camry 4-cylinder has gone 81K miles with no evidence of sludging.

tdi90hp

I thought all of you would like to hear another incredible Toyota story. I just turned over 531,000 kms (over 325,000 miles) on my 92 4cyl, 5 speed camry LE. Not a spot of rust,silver, seats are still great, runs beautifully, burns about 1 liter of oil per 10,000 kms and has been a joy to own. Bought it at 220,000kms and driven it ever since. Word of caution as these cars get older , when you do timing belts (they go 200,000kms easy)make sure your dealer/mechanic replaces ALL the seals associated with it AND the water pump. You have 3 seals. 1/cam seal 2/crank seal,3/oil pump seal. They were all very brittle and leaking. ALL replaced with the belt and the pump at 500,000kms.
NO major reairs on car EVER except for condensor (AC) and 2 sets of struts, and a clutch at 441,000kms and lots of Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Change my oil every 10,000kms (6000Miles) and change the filter every 3000 Miles. I have the ORIGINAL rear brakes, and exhaust and all electrical components except for starter.
Car is amazing and looks ready for many more miles!!! Comments or questions??
Claude