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Comments
I did some research and found that this sending unit was defective and had been replaced on the Supras. Toyota offered me a pittance and then when I hesitated they said, Ok, too late, we're withdrawing that offer and now you get nothing. Rude, arrogant.
I took them to small claims court in New York, and the night before the trial their lawyers called me and asked how much I wanted. They gave it to me. They gave in because they probably didn't want any publicity about their defective sending unit and a possible mandatory recall. They also want to protect their positive image with the public and don't want that threatened.
If you have a sludge problem with your Toyota and have changed oil regularly, go to the mat with these guys. Otherwise, they'll ignore you.
I personally prefer to throw my money away using synthetic and 5000 mile oil changes.
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2002/february/20020211_dai_toyota.xml
Second - I own a 2000 Sienna that developed engine sludge at exactly one year and 17,000 miles. I changed my oil three times during that year with the average being every 5,500 miles. The longest interval (the first) was 7,100 miles, but my driving conditions fit the 7,500 drain interval in my manual because I do not drive on dusty or dirt roads, do not tow or carry heavy loads, nor do frequent starts and stops in below freezing temperatures (the definition of the severe service in my manual). If Toyota is saying that sludge is not occuring in well maintained engines I think it is because they are defining maintenance conditions more strictly than their own manual. I had to pay $3,300 to get my engine "de-sludged" and am hoping to get reimbursed for this repair under Toyota's new Special Policy Adjustment for Oil Gel (engine sludge).
~alpha
I drive a RSX type S and change oil every 2000 or two months.I don't think I'll go near a Toyota after the previous post.
Check the Engine Sludge Town Hall discussion (found under Maintenance and Repair). This is pretty much 100 percent about sludge in Toyotas. Cliffy reported there that Toyota did not change the engines in the 2002 models. I am not sure why they wouldn't be included in the SPA if the engine is the same, except that maybe it is too early.
~alpha
I have 3500 miles on my 2002 V6 LE. I have noticed that at speeds of between 68-70 mph the engine revvs upto 3000 rpm. The ride also is not as smooth as one would expect at that speed. I also own a 93 camry which revvs upto about 2400 rpm at that speed. I feel that my 93 rides much smoother at that speed than my 2002. I am thinking about taking in my 2002 to the dealer to have them take a look. What do you guys think? Is this normal?
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
On the sludge issue, well my problem is that if I purchase a new Toyota I will be required to have my oil changed every 3000--3750 miles if I wish to avoid sludge. If I purchase a new Honda or Amercan car I can get 7,500-10,000 mile change intervals and not be fearful of sludge. SO, is this a no brainer!!!!.
Cliffy1 is right. Frequency of oil changes should not be your criteria for purchasing a vehicle. I still say 3000 miles and a oil and oil filter change go together. I do it myself and the cost is minimal. I do not change the oil myself to save money(although it certainly does), but because I know it will be done right and I enjoy doing it.
armtdm- Our Camrys ARE great cars. I just turned over 31K in our 2000 Camry with nary a problem, no sludging, oil changes at 5000 mile intervals. Almost 2000 miles on our 02 LE and not a single hitch. No squeaks, rattles, nothing. (Our last "first year production" Camry, a 97 had an intermittent driver seat sqeak and one RECALL)Will keep that car on a 5k service interval as well. (Note: the 2000 is a lease, the 2002 is a purchase. These cars are worth every penny, at least to us.
~alpha
Why doesn't the 2002 Camry have this problem, did they make a change in the engine along with the new body style?
~alpha
Its amazing how many people have had this problem, I wouldn't expect that from a Toyota.
First, to tkam0 -- I have test driven two Camry LE V6s recently and both showed 2600 rpm at 70 mph. Even that seems a little high to me, since I'm used to the 3800 V6 in my '96 Regal, which loafs along at 2000 rpm at 70. Can't imagine why yours would show 3000, unless the overdrive was turned off.
I was just on the verge of deciding to buy a V6 LE when this sludge news hit. (Thank goodness for this Edmunds site, or I would have never known.) It seems unclear as to whether Toyota is admitting any kind of a design or build quality problem. I'm so surprised -- Toyota seemed to have a rock-solid reputation for reliability. It seems that it's time Toyota made a public statemen about this, if they haven't already.
Based on my test drives, I like the car. I'm looking for a sedan with better suspension and steering than my Regal (not a hard target to hit). I was very impressed with the roominess. The seat is a little shorter from front to back than in my Regal, but I elevated the front of it so my thigh was supported and it seemed fine. I like the feel of the car, the driving position, the head room, etc. I've been looking for awhile, and thought I had finished my search -- now this sludge thing.
I do plan to ask both of the sales people I recently dealt with if they can give me any information on the sludge situation. I'll pass along whatever comes of that. In the meantime, I'll stay tuned to this group and see what develops.
Thanks again for all your info. I'll try to contribute some of my own. I'm hoping this engine thing will be resoloved, because I really liked the car.
The other day I was at Toyota looking at the Corolla and the salesman was showing me the "Timing Belt". Only problem was, he thought it was on the outside of the engine. It's amazing how little those people know.
Rely on your own research. You're smarter than they are...........and of course you're not looking to sell anybody a car.
For the sludge conscious this has an oil change indicator light which triggers at about 5-7,500 miles. After the initial change at 4300 miles I am on a 12,000 mile change interval using synthetic. Oil analysis indicates that this enigne will do fine in this scenario.
I don't buy a car based upon oil change interval but in todays market I would question any manufacturer that states 3,750 miles or sludge!
I have a Toyota but would not purchase another for several reasons, there are other good options today, average dealer service (terrible knowledge of my car in the service dept) boring product line, and now potential sludge.
In answer to RPM questions, our 02 LE four turns about 2600RPM at an indicated 70MPH.
You should note that higher altitudes will cause the engine to work harder to maintain a given speed, (because of thinner air) even if the driving surface is flat. So, there'd be a difference in RPM from my NJ driving experience compared to one in say, Denver.
Otherwise, MAKE SURE that your O/D button is depressed, meaning 4th gear ISNT locked out. The 02 is averaging about 24-25MPG in a pretty much even mix of city/highway. The 2002 is a great car, an improvement over the 2000, MUCH peppier with the 4cylinder, less mundane in appearance, "contented" a bit better (although I miss the "auto-on" headlamps and articulating headrests), handling seems a bit sharper. My dad said it is the first Camry we've had that actually feels like an inexpensive luxury car. (He said the rest, including the one I drive, seemed more like plain family cars)
~alpha
According to my local dealer, Toyota doesn't make them that way, and a special order could be rejected outright or take up to four months to arrive. They also want to charge me $1000 more than they would for a model they have on the floor (that is, $1000 more on top of the cost of adding on the 6-CD in-dash changer, of course).
Is it really that hard to get a special order? Is Toyota really not making XLEs with the in-dash CD changer and without a sunroof, leather, and aluminum wheels? Is there really any reason I should have to pay an additional $1000 markup for requesting a special order?
Thanks for any advice you've got.
Also, is that configuration really so rare? Or are those prevalent elsewhere in the country other than the Northeast?
Can you add an in-dash CD changer after-market? How much would that cost? Maybe there's a better forum to ask that question, but it does seem to apply here as well.
IMO - the more Toyota hears from us, the better the chance they will be forced into coming clean. Questioning the service managers, emailing or writing Toyota execs -- they need to be held accountable.
Unless I've missed something, the posts of this group are still inconclusive. Is there a design/build problem, or is it poor maintenance by owners? Is the V6 in the 2002 Camry more than normally susceptible to sludge buildup or not? Under what circumstances? It's fine to speculate on all this, and because of these postings I have some ammunition to fire at Toyota, but eventually Toyota is the only one who can clear this up.
Again, I agree about salespeople and their credibility. I've even read that sometimes they are not even informed by the company they work for. They may not be intentionally evasive, they just might not know the facts. And it's very possible these Camry salespeople are in that situation. Still, it costs me nothing to put them on the spot, along with their general managers and service managers. If Toyota wants to sell these cars, they'll have to give us some answers.
The sooner the better for me. I'd love to be negotiating on an LE V6, but this sludge thing has me leery.
Yes; they seem to make lots of those; in fact all XLEs seem to come with side airbags, and most 4-cylinder models come with nothing else. But I really want an in-dash changer if at all possible; I have a trunk-mounted one right now and I can't stand it.
Next, on the issue of asking salesmen, it is probably a waste of breath. I work at a metropolitan area dealership with one of the more informed and well trained staffs, yet few of our guys have the slightest clue about the "sludge" issue. Our service department is VERY familiar with this, but the sales guys are not. A better suggestion would be to have a conversation with a service writer. I always recommend this anyway when buying a car to ensure that the dealer you select will be able to help you long after the initial purchase.
http://www.kmov.com/business/business_stories/NEWS_020219_toyota_engines.html
Automotive News Article:
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302
(sarcasm):)
~alpha
I realize one man's experience cannot be viewed as conclusive, but we have owned many many Honda models over the years, including CR-V, Accord, Prelude, CL-S in the last 5 years. Because we don't put on a lot of mileage, you could say our cars are "undermaintained" since we tend to follow the mileage rather than the time for scheduled maintenance. But we have had Zero problem with any of the cars.
The best comparison in my book is to compare the number of vehicles in a dealers service bay (for repairs, not maintenance) to the number you see rolling down the highway with nary a problem. I've concluded there really are no junk vehicles out there, but they all have something here and there. I have a relative that was a regional service rep for one of the auto manufacturers and according to him all their cars were garbage. But that's all he saw and he agreed that the number he dealt with in comparison with the hundreds of thousands sold every year was fractional at best.
When I bought the car from a Toyota dealership the salesman told me that the car had been inspected for sludge BECAUSE THE CARS ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO IT and this one did not have any. It had 44K on it at the time. So at least one dealership admits there is a problem.
Finally, can anyone tell me how to remove the rear speaker grills? I need to clean or replace one.
Thanks!
Poor product, poor servicce should equal not spending future money on the product. Wish more Americans would speak with their cash in this manner. Unfortunately, most just look at the price, Wal-Mar mentality and then expect great service when the product dies right after the warranty!
As to Toyota, as noted on other boards, I own a 92. Would not purchase another though for following reasons:
. Boring product line (nothing with guts and I mean HP)
. The V6 engine design dates back to my 92 (great engine then) and they really screwed it up in the 97 re-design as the sludge indicates
. Too many alternatives in same price range
. Lack of customer support as shown in the sludge issue
But, Toyota not in the same category for me as Volvo and Chrysler.