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Comments
Statistically speaking, Acura and Honda often flip-flop each other in the quality and reliability rankings.
The way I see it, my BMW E39 is perfect other than the fact that the reliability pisses me off. Not to mention Audi A6, which I heard is below BMW E39. You see, when automag recommend some auto, they test drive it, like it, and recommend it. They don't care about
- reliability
- safety
- ownership cost
- resale value
- turn-around time of repair
- etc.
That is where JD Power and Consumer Report come in from different angles.
You, as an owner, have to care about those aspects. However, BMW decided to fix the "wrong thing". Instead of improving reliability, they went ahead to fix the "look"! IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the look of E39 (prev-gen BMW 5-series). And, they further introduce the iDrive, Active Steering, etc. All great ideas but poorly executed. Even worse reliability as a result. Well, I guess BMW has to learn their lessons.
On another front, QX56 and Armada were built in the same plant in Canton, Missi. QX56 has its own separate QC area, and exercise much tighter standard by separate personnel. That is how Infiniti establish better quality control than Nissan. I guess there is a reason for $7K difference in pricing other than hardwares.
Finally, I would take a Japanese built vehicle over American any day. It is in the culture. Japanese respect their own profession, and take pride in what their build. In many regards, they learnt that from Germans. However, some how along the way, Germans are losing it in automobile manufacturing.
RL would come with 17" rim standard with option to upgrade to 18" (whatever that means - touring?)
Anyhow, just to share what I just leant. It seem to be in synch with what people saw on the door side sticker in NY Auto Show.
Notwithstanding Acura's legendary reliabilty, those of us who buy the 2005 RL will be the guinnea pigs for what I presume to be new, revolutionary (or if you prefer, evolutionary) new technology.
Acura typically offers a 3 year - 36,000 mile warranty. Add to my wish list a 5 year - 50,000 mile warranty (or better) for the all-wheel drive powertrain.
I would hate to think what it would cost to repair or replace the SH-AWD machinery.
I intend to pass on my concerns to Acura directly and to 3 of my local dealerships. Those of you who plan to buy the car may wish to consider doing the same. If enough people raise the issue, Acura might consider some form of extended warranty pre-sale or at least offer "customer assistance" for a SH-AWD repair that occurs post warranty.
See the list for warranty of all manufacturers:
http://www.lexus.com/models/warranty_vehicle_protection/warranty_- - - comparison.html
Amazingly, Acura is still better than MB and same as Lincoln.
M
How I "act" is immaterial, seeing as you can't see me. What I wrote is what you have an issue with -- what you have interpreted my comments to mean. I never suggested that service on a Japanese car was "dirt cheap", just that it was far less expensive than a German car. I stand by that assertion. The total cost of ownership for a Japanese luxury car is far less than its German counterparts. It you want to dispute that be sure that you have data that trumps the thousands of actual car owners that report their actual experiences and expenses every year in an unbiased owner survey held by Consumer Reports. I have serviced Mercedes Benz cars and I know first hand that the costs are far in excess of anything that a Japanese car requires by comparison.
>No high-end car is cheap to service. You should read some of the posts on the LS boards about service costs.<
I don't need to read those posts. I have owned an Acura Legend LS for a good many years. Over all, its been relatively inexpensive to keep, and, importantly, it's been very reliable. Moreover, I've stepped up to the cashier at the Mercedes dealership many times. Maintaining a Mercedes is a huge cost, partly because a lot of their parts fail, and because they cost an arm and a leg to replace. I watched my father spends thousands and thousands of dollars to maintain a 300 E class. Nearly every trip to the shop cost between $800 - $1400; and that did not include the valve job that had to be performed at 30,000 miles!
Your handle suggests that either you own a Mercedes or a Mercury. I would own neither. Have a nice day -- oh, and say hello to your service adviser for me. I am sure you must be on a first name basis by now.
This clearly isn't always the case. Those thousands of actual owners who post real prices for services here also bare this out. There was a post right after my first one that illustrated this. I know people with Lexuses too and they are not all that much cheaper (if at all) to service at 30K and especially 60K. A friend has a 1995 SC300 and a rear suspension job on that car was over 1K. The 300E you speak of was built during a different era and Mercedes' current cars require much less routine maintanence than that W124 model did.
It is nothing for a LS400/430 owners to drop 700-1K on service appointments either. Mercedes paid for the service costs for the first 4 years of 50K miles, Lexus doesn't. Don't know how much cheaper you can get than the maker acutally paying for the services. Plus Mercedes' don't need servicing every 7.5K like Lexuses do they can go up to 10K, with the service being paid for on top of that. That old-think about MB's being so, so much more to service than Lexuses is just, old thinking.
I'm not talking about reliability here, just routine service visits. Nor am I talking about an Acura which isn't high-end. Sure a Japanese car will come out cheaper if you plan on keeping it for 13+ years. However in this day of 3-4 year leases that Lexus is cheaper to service angle isn't even relevant. Your posts read like getting a LS430 serviced is 500 bucks and a Benz is 1.5K at least. All I'm saying is that between their upper level cars there is not that big of a difference.
M
Not everyone leases. I like to own my car, not rent it. So do a few other American drivers -- maybe 50 million of them. Believe it or not, some people keep their car for 7 or 8 years. Last time I checked, that's still allowed.
>Your posts read like getting a LS430 serviced is 500 bucks and a Benz is 1.5K at least.<
What's your definition of "service"? You can parse the defintion down to an oil change. You have the Mercedes I assume, what does it cost to "service"? Let's assume it's out of warranty.
>All I'm saying is that between their upper level cars there is not that big of a difference.<
Well, aside from the LS430, I don't consider the rest of the Lexus line to be at any more of an "upper level" than an Acura is.
The Mercedes S430 -- as upper level as they come -- was deemed so unreliable and expensive to operate by Consumer Reports that despite their admiration for the car's drive, comfort and features, they could not recommend it.
>Plus Mercedes' don't need servicing every 7.5K like Lexuses do they can go up to 10K, with the service being paid for on top of that.<
Really, do you go 10,000 miles before you change your oil and filter?
Is that why your maintenance costs are so low?
No need for the sarcasim is there? Seriously, I agree totally with this and I did state in my previous post that a Japanese cars would be cheaper to own for 7 to 8 years no argument from me there.
My definition of "service" is what the owner's recommends to be done at stated mileage intervals and what the tech says needs to be done at this time also, within reason. Mercedes' cars since 1998 have had a system calls FSS that determines when service is needed. It reads oil quality in real time so the service interval varies by driving style, mileage and other things, in short the interval isn't fixed. They also switched to synthetic to facilitate longer service intervals. Everyone I know with a 1998 or newer Mercedes has gone 8-12K between oil changes. This has been the case with Benzes in several magazine long term tests also. Lexuses service intervals are fixed and the owner has pick up the tab. This is a major difference in cost for at least the first 3 to 4 years, which was my point. I didn't dispute that overall costs for a Japanese car would be less out of warranty or when it gets older like 7-10 years. Though from experience certain Lexi, and Infiniti (first generation Q45 in particular) are far from cheap. An uncle of mine had a first generation Q45 and when it came time to replace the chains on that engine cha-ching $2500.
I'm fully aware of who the reliability surveys favor, that isn't my point. Routine service costs is.
"Well, aside from the LS430, I don't consider the rest of the Lexus line to be at any more of an "upper level" than an Acura is."
I think everyone would consider the GS430, SC430 and their V8 SUVs more upscale than any Acura. They also have V8s, which always equal higher service costs.
M
However, if you look at an S500 vs. an LS430 for example, the Benz is $15-25,000 more purchased. While service under warranty is free, once that runs out...and yes I will certainly admit that owning even an LS can cost you $2000 on scheduled visits under warranty, thats still $23,000 I saved over an S500, and when the warranty is long gone, I still have the piece of mind that my car is going to get me to work, day in, day out. Thats why I buy Lexus.
And with respect to all this German bashing, talk of auto magazines and Consumers Reports: Consumer's Reports may be the end all be all of automotive prose -- unbiased, factual, etc. The car magazines may be useless in terms of automotive reliability data (although they seem to be at least "aware" of the reputations of many of the cars about which they write.)
Moreover, the car magazines do test cars for "long term" articles and repair costs and trips to the dealer certainly are duly reported.
My slow turning toward the Japanese auto-makers is far from complete, but, like soil erosion, it IS relentless, continuous. But my reasons for turning to the Japanese auto-makers are, presently, derived from the "promises" of what WILL be, certainly not the current reality (Acura TL does deserve an honorable mention in FWD guise, however).
The reasons for looking at the Japanese cars, for me, include "the promise of performance and value." They (well some of them, Acura for one) seems to already do a very good job on the value proposition -- the '05 RL promises performance and that promise will draw me into the showroom.
Despite all the reliability posts AGAINST some of the Germans -- there are plenty of PRO posts here and elsewhere. And, like I said, Consumer's Reports information is not compelling. Reading a CR report on a car is like reading about food wherein the description is accurate and true but omits any discussion about flavor or (shhhhh be vewy quiet, I'm twacking wabbit) subjective taste. Likewise reading Car & Driver expecting even a modicum of information pertaining to reliability is an invitation to disappointment.
Yet, at least with Car and Driver I have a sense (since I often agree with the authors) of how the car will be from behind the wheel.
Finally with respect to what is just about the most valuable information, I would have to agree with several of the posters -- forums such as THIS are often (not always, but often) the most relevant.
I have had, as some folks reading this may already know, some 27 Audis, 2 VW's and 1 BMW since 1977 (my wife and I combined, that is). We currently have 2 Audis in the final year of a three year lease.
My 2003 allroad needs its second replacement of the On*star electronics (a Motorola device I am told). The batteries in my wife's key fob, WERE, only good for about 2 months (that has been rectified with a new supplier of batteries, apparently).
We have the cars serviced at 7,500 miles (owners manual calls for 10,000 mile intervals).
We're looking to Acura, for one, as a strong alternative to Audi (hopefully the Japanese Audi as "Automobile" magazine calls it).
The Acura pre-release information is darn near compelling -- but the new A6 test reports have been almost universally proclaiming the new A6 as the one to beat in this segment. There is nothing, yet, that can be done to verify (for myself) that either of these cars will achieve "the one to beat" status -- with the magazines or with me.
And, I have been buying Audis for over 25 years NOT based on a car magazine or a statistical magazine. I probably would have had more than one BMW if that (the former anyway) were the case -- the car magazines have been smitten with BMW for years (Audi less so).
Acura, on paper, deserves a fair shake -- and from my perspective, regardless of the magazines, that is what I am planning to give it.
The German cars we have had, however, have been incomparable in terms of the "behind the wheel experience" -- or, as my wife says, "these cars go like a snake in a rat hole." I kinda know what that means, but I sure like the way that it sounds -- I just have never thought of rats as having holes -- I always thought that was moles or voles.
It just sounds better to say "rat hole" for some reason.
Drive it like you live. And, speaking from personal experience, our German cars have had decent reliability -- but NEVER having had a Japanese car, I may be in for a wonderful surprise if we cross over to the other side of the world, so to speak.
P.S. Our Audis, since 1988 have come with "included" service and warranty -- also included is the use of a like car while yours is being serviced, and when the car is picked up it has been cleaned, inside and out. I "assume" it is more expensive to have a European car serviced than a Japanese car, but for the first 50K miles, Audis, BMW's and (at this point) Mercedes, have only gas, plates and tires as maintenance costs -- now THAT'S cheap (and yes, I know it is in the MSRP :-)!)
And, thus far, I'm one of those "ugly American consumers" who can't make the case for owning a car or renting an apartment -- I rent cars and own real estate. Acura's RL with 105,000 mile "tune up" intervals may make me rethink this notion (at least insofar as auto leasing is concerned). But there is still the issue of rapid technology change and the enjoyment of never having a car more than 2 model years old. . . .
ksso
I am not a big fan of the 5's tail, or am not necessarily charmed with it the way i was by the previous 5, but i sincerly think anybody who thinks the current 5 is inferior to the old or does not offer enough improvements over the old is either uninformed or simply smokin something...
i don't discount the overall thesis that the japanese cars are getting very close to the germans, specially on the value for money front, they just can't be compared. But again who knows, in another 20 years we might be singing, "the koreans offer the best value for money with almost comparable performance to the japanese".. hehe...
in this world, the top of the pyramid is always an adherent to the rule of diminishing returns. very small delta of change is very expensive to get.
advancements in miniaturization did not come out of Germany, they mostly came out of the US and then some from japan. This today and tomorrow is the world of miniaturization, which includes car electronics and I think the japanese have a definitive advantage over the germans, who were king of pure mechanical gizmos. I wonder why the country of most major electronics patents, basically the US is not in lead here.... which brings us to why the RL might rule on the curvy roads, its not just pure mechanical anymore.
Why the disparity in quality? What ails MB, Audi and BMW? We seem to require "tolerance" (sic) in all areas.
signed: George
Of course it is insufficient to proclaim and expect the disparity in your opening salvo -- I, for one, want legendary Japanese reliability and known (by me) German car performance. I have seen and participated in threads decrying the lack of quality of the Europeans' and the lack of soul (performance) of the Japanese.
I do not want to trade performance for reliability, however. That is why CR sways me not even a little. Again they present statistics and quantification and I do believe they are accurate and they probably must serve a purpose as so many people seem to point their furtive flying fickle finger of fate at their ratings as if they somehow equated to anything even approaching the totally subjective evaluation of performance, feel and "that certain something."
I also would not buy audio speakers for a home theater system based on their frequency response or sound pressure level stats. But, I do believe them when they proclaim many cars, Acura among them, to be of superior reliability. I read an opinion piece once by Jay Leno who said the problem with Japanese cars is they were designed to minimize the interaction between the car and the people inside the car (including the driver) -- he went on to say, if you want a perfect car, buy a fill in the blank, Japanese car.
This was, admittedly, years ago -- and, after the Acura TL test drive my wife and I took, we were very impressed. If the thing had not had such mighty torque steer, I do believe it would be on the top o the list of contenders.
The new RL, based only on this forum and their web site and a few paragraphs here and there, promises (as I said previously) to be the Japanese Audi -- I think that means the driving pleasure of the Audi with the reliability of the Japanese car. If this truly is the case, or at least if it has the former and is priced thousands under the Audi, it will remain a contender.
I honestly don't know who has married the two traits Performance and Reliability -- it is as if they are an oxymoron. Mercedes used to have the reputation, real or trumped up, that it had both. I don't think that can be said anymore.
Audi, in my vast experience, has been quite reliable but I know this is hardly a universal experience.
And, I am not totally convinced that quality = reliability. The quality of my Audis fit and finish is darn close to impeccable, the engines have always been strong and silent until called upon to perform then their sound is sweet, especially in the V8 equipped versions.
We do require tolerance. Most folks tolerate good performance for great reliability -- for all I know, I may be morphing into such a person as I would like to be able to keep a car beyond 50K miles and not feel that this is only in the province of the well to do, for they can afford the repair bills that would choke most middle and upper middle folks (probably a demographic that is well represented herein).
The Chrysler dealerships give me the creeps -- product ignorance seems to reign supreme. But refrains of "she's a beauty" are plentiful, regardless of the vehicle being scrutinized. C'mon fellers, you want to lure me back . . .or my wife? I'm certain that many of these white paint on the windshield American car dealers were the inspiration for the term "lot lizard." But, they seem to persist -- PT Barnum said it better than I.
I tend to agree in advance that the RL "ought" to thrive -- but less so perhaps because of its absolute greatness and more so probably because the competition in some quarters is so lame.
Time will tell.
I wonder what those Frequency of Repair stats would look like if the Germans really did produce reliable cars -- I say this because if asked, I would tell CR that my Audi is very reliable. Maybe the reason the results are skewed has something to do with the sample. . .? A possibility.
Test the car. CR has about as much business swaying your opinion on a car as it does in picking your ideal mate based on statistics alone.
If your test of a car, American, European or Japanese (or other) presses your performance buttons, buy it. However, if your primary criteria is reliability -- why not just go with the statistics and don't worry too much about the subjective since, thus far, it has been demonstrated time and again, that they seem to be mutually exclusive characteristics.
Maybe we could all vote with our dollars -- but it seems that we would all have to collude and all buy Japanese and forsake the Europeans in order to teach them that we demand reliability. Or, conversely, we should all ONLY buy the best performing car of the moment and teach Acura (and others) that we won't tolerate cars that are merely perfect, but we want cars that involve the passenger behind the wheel.
Nahhh, it'll never happen.
A corollary of this conversation seems a mute indictment of much of the American built fare. We have spent a lot of time talking about reliabilty and performance, about fit and finish and bulletproof engines. Curious if any of you feel that American cars are worthy enough to be considered in the equations postulated above. Those of us who drive Japanese or German cars have been voting with our dollars for some time.
Ahh..the fly in the buttermilk...lol. Yes they do, but depending on the dealer you may or may not get another Mercedes while your car is being serviced. My relatives hate this with a passion. One with a C-Class gets a Ford or Buick rental, the other (S500) gets an E320. The basic problem is that Mercedes has far too many cars coming in for service and problems alike. Some dealers here have rows upon rows of ML loaner vehicles!
pellucid,
"Is it sufficient to say that the Germans are performance oriented and that the Japanese are
reliability oriented? Why are they mutually exclusive and why wouldn't a potential buyer demand
that both be in place when an expenditure of thousands of $ is involved."
I've always said that when the Japanese master, unlock etc. the driving/styling/design essence of a European car, the Euros are finished. If the Europeans learn to build a Japanese-reliable car at cheaper prices the Japanese would have no more reason to exists. It appears the two are moving closer together in some areas, but alas not close enough. Both sides enjoy record popularity in this country.
I personally have a soft spot for Acuras. I've wanted one ever since the 1995 Legend GS, but their styling keeps me far away, even now.
M
I am looking at a 1999 Acura RL (no nav) with 107k miles on it and no service records. It is being offered at a small independent dealership for $12,800. I drove the car about 20 miles today and everything seemed okay. I called the local Acura dealership and asked if they had any service records for it, but did not.
With this being a high mileage vehicle and no records, what should I watch out for?
Do you think that it is a decent deal?
What are common problems for the RL's?
Is it okay to run Mid-Grade (89oct) or even Regular (87oct) gas or is PREMIUM the ONLY way to go?
It is in average to good condition. The color is gold, the tires are new off-brand, the leather is in good shape with the exception of a small place on the rear seat. I really like the car, but have no experience with Honda/Acura automobiles.
Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!!
LexusLX
When I bought my 540iA in '98, I cross-shopped Lexus GS400. GS lacked the spirit of E39 in handling and confidence inspiring. BMW simply makes average driver good and good drivers excellent. At least they feel that way. And, that is fun.
6+ years of owning 540, I had to visit dealer shop twice a year on average for non-maintenance repair. Stranded on highway once, which was embarrassing and inconvenient. Completely new cooling system after only 55K (the infamous plastic radiator). It gets to a point that I am afraid to take it on longer trip than commute. I would rather take my Odyssey EX-Navi, which I have owned for 3+ year, 0 problem!. And, that is boring, not fun.
If my BMW is anywhere nearly as reliable as an average Acura, I would have kept it for years to come. For BMW to win my business back, they would have to work hard on reliability. For now, I would settle with performance-oriented Japanese cars. I will miss my 540, and that is for sure.
Anywho, there are some things to keep in mind about the whole performance equation. Many of the cars that Japanese companies sell here in the states are US market cars, tuned for our big fat butts and crappy roads. Do we get any German cars that are NOT world market cars? I dont think we do (well except BMW X3). The Japanese cars that we do get that are world market (RSX, TSX, NSX, Mazda 3\6, Infiniti G35) have proven that the Japanese can make performance cars when its Europeans and Asians who are also going to be doing the driving, not just lazy Americans.
I am making the same choice. My dealership in Annapolis also sells both acura and audi. We have bought 3 acuras and 1 audi. I have a deposit on the RL but will be seeing the a6 in person on Thursday! I am still on the fence and might put a deposit on the a6 as well. Hedge my bets. I am 6'3" and headroom is a factor in some acuras for me ( the other acuras were my wife's cars/suv).
Japanese cars as stated by lexusguy have overcome similar issues primarily because their foreign markets are the largest operation for them. So I guess thay depend more on developing the vehicle form the get go with US market in mind!
This said I do not beleive that there is an irreconcilable schism between performance and reliability, at least when it comes down to mass market models (the racing arena is a different one). What separates european and japanese (beside the above factors) is that they are engaged in develpment of different priorities. For the european brands sold in the US the philosophy remains of creating a vehicle satisfying 'racing istincts' abstract of other concerns while for the japanese is primarily efficient use of resources. Even if this may be less evident in the Acura, Lexus and other premium brands I think the philosophy remains there because of the R&D main trust and the resulting expertises acquired/developed.
Direct indicators suggesting what I am stating may be seen in the preferential use of in line vs. V engine configurations, suspension preferences and of course the fwd vs. rwd choices.
Now while all of this may be going on I am absolutely certain that the 'global market' will cause convergence of these philosophies since both command strategic interests and sell well.
I guess that even now we are seeing 'convergence' at work. At least IMHO that is what the new RL is attempting to do, welcome you in a japanese build vehicle that will ride as well or better that your usual european suspects (i.e. Audi, BMW etc). Well you all know where is likely that I will vote with my wallet when I'll make my choice.
As far a fuel, I tested premium gas vs. regular(87) for the first year and I found no significant mileage difference between the two. I have used 87 octane for the past 3 years with no apparent effect.
Here comes the pomp and circumstance regarding the RL -- and, hot on the heels of a mostly satisfying TL test drive, we pause to gather information and come to believe that this RL might at least come close to marrying performance, quality, value and reliability -- attributes, that -- thus far -- ONLY Audi has even approximated; and, in the case of reliability, I can only assume that our experiences, relatively speaking, with this attribute will be blown to smithereens by the Acura (I'm counting on it, in fact). However, even if the Acura achieves Audi reliability (based on our experience) plus performance and quality and ups the value quotient, well -- ta da, the Acura will be a winner.
Much of the reason we have had so many Audi cars is that they have been terrific values (compared to BMW and Mercedes which, pound for pound cost about $10K more than a comparable Audi). The new A6 for 05 may be of declining value (but, in all fairness some of that MAY be due to exchange rates).
When we test drove the BMW and the Merc recently, we also test drove the TL and the Audi (3 series, C class and A4 with respect to the Germans) -- both the TL and the Audi were the value leaders of the bunch -- but the Audi did have AWD and the TL did have torque steer. But the BMW and Mercedes which were "in the league" of the Audi were some $8,000 to $10,000 higher MSRP than either the Audi or the Acura -- and believe me I looked in the glove box to find where they had hidden the money in the BMW and the Mercedes!
What, for $48K, will better the RL (on paper) in the Premium class and WITH AWD? If the content of the A6 for 05 at that price point rivals the Acura, well then that is a problem for Acura -- but, as I suspect, the performance and value of the new RL will surpass the new A6. Now if the quality of the Audi is somehow bestowed upon the Acura and the Acura's reliability is at least the equal of the Audi, well it sure looks like Acura will have a new convert.
But, stranger things have happened -- the RL may be "all yak and no shak!" Or all looks and no substance, perhaps.
What an exciting time to be in the market. I suspect by January or February all this will be sorted out by us and by the motoring press. And, although there will not be enough data, I am certain CR will weigh in and beat up the Audi for its historic reliability problems and laud the Acura for its history of few reliability problems.
I certainly hope our expectations are not so high that they can't be met.
but the M45 does look better in my opinion, of course, that's purely based on what i saw in the NY auto show.. vis-a-vis the RL.
at 100k the car is just getting broken in. You should experience similar reliability with the Lexus -- obviously every brand has a lemon or two. there have been no serious problems in the history of the RL that I'm aware of.
Recommendations:
run a Carfax. It won't tell you everything, but it will give y ou a good snapshot of the car's overall history and tell you if it's had any truly serious issues.
Arrange for a PPI at the local Acura dealer. Include a leakdown, transmission exam, timing belt, etc. For a couple hundred dollars they should be able to tell you if you're looking at any major bills in the next 20k.
Use premium gas. The weakness of the RL, imo, is that it is underpowered. You won't hurt the engine with regular but you need to get what is available out of it sometimes. Look at it this way, the cost of premium is about $.20 more than regular, whether regular is $1.00 or $2.00, right? If you drive 12000 miles/yr. the cost of going with premium is less than $100/yr. You're buying a luxury car. If you want an economy car, an RL or Lexus, etc., probably isn't what you want. JW
Do you guys have any suggestions that you'd like me to pass on -- on top of those we discussed several days ago on our "2005 RL wishlist"?
Get back to me tonight if you can.
It must be difficult to engineer Honda's small car knowledge into something larger. Obviously the TL ran into that wall, and Honda's going on such a departure from its usual work that I'm starting to turn skeptical of the modern RL's first generation. Maybe I just can't imagine a Skyline GT-R killer that's cheaper and more plush, on the first try.
M