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Acura RL

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The S80 has been around since '99. Thats not THAT old. What about Passat and the rest of VWs aging fleet? Even a very large company like the WVAG can only do so much at once. They focused too heavily on their super exotics, meanwhile VW sales eroded away. Lexus let the first SC coupe run from '92-'00 with no major changes. The last Audi A8 was around for a very long time. The Deville is ancient also.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >Honda / Acura decided just to be adequate and follow what the competition offered and not be the leader like it was when the original Legend came out.<

    I think I may understand DC's larger point here. Since the Legend first arrived, Lexus quickly leap-frogged Acura with their LS, which they have continued to nurture to the point where it is believed by many to have surpassed what is arguably the very best that Germany has to offer --namely the Mercedes S430.

    Even the second generation Legend, which I own, was surpassed in some respects with the entry of the ES 300 line by Lexus. Certainly, the car buying and maintenance experience at Lexus dealerships is head and shoulders above Acura's.

    As others have pointed out, Acura waited 9 years to upgrade the RL. That's hardly leadership, IMHO. They let the RL lanquish, all the while putting larger and larger engines in their less expensive, non-flagship cars. To me this neglect was inexcusable.

    Yes, SH-AWD may be a nifty feature (we will have to watch and wait to know for sure), but that aside, the cosmetics of this car are hardly inspiring or cutting edge -- they are not for example like Nissan of late, which is making some very bold and risky styling moves. As we all know, Acura is not a risk taking company. More than uninspiring, the new RL is ugly in some areas (nose and trunk) and with respect to the trunk, derivative of BMW's 7 series styling disaster. Plus they have made the car shorter - to me a negative. A car that looks like a Camry is hardly illustrative of leadership in action.

    Take away the SH-AWD and what do you have? A 6 cylinder engine, no rear wheel drive, and traffic updates on your navi screen. That's not much.

    Is the interior the equal of the comparably priced new Audi A6? Nope. Does it come with the free maintenance and loaner cars of the Audi? Nope.

    No, I don't think Acura is leading this niche. Sure, a new gadget this year, but that alone does not make a leader. Overall, it seems more like catch-up rather than catch-me-if-you-can.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You know what I think you're right about the S80, but it seems like it is so much older than everything else in the class, I was actually thinking it was from 1997. VW's main cars aren't really relevant to this discussion, and they're no older than the Volvo S80. But I do see your point and VWOA really does, between the Japanese and Koreans they're having the fight of their life right now.

    The previous A8 debuted in Europe for 1994, but we didn't get it until 1997 and it ran until 2003, that isn't out of line with the previous S-Class or 7-Series really. All three had about a 7 or 8 MY year run.

    legendman,

    I'm shocked. I would have thought you'd come out swinging for the new RL. I think the car will have a good two years before the luster starts to fade. The M45 is the wildcard here, imo.

    M
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >Legendman, I'm shocked. I would have thought you'd come out swinging for the new RL. I think the car will have a good two years before the luster starts to fade. The M45 is the wildcard here, imo.<

    Well, true enough I am a big fan of japanese reliability, and I do think Acura makes a very reliable car. However, in terms of styling, and staying a player in the luxury car competition, I think that they have consistently blown it. The snooty attitude at Acura Client Services doesn't help matters either, by the way.

    Am I glad to see a re-invented RL, yes. But it should have been available 4 or 5 years ago. I was ready to trade up to a new one for all this time, yet all they produced were bland cars, with god awful paint colors, and increasingly cheapened interior appointments. While the car was a good value, it was nothing to get excited about. Meanwhile, look at the buzz the Infiniti G35 has generated.

    Styling is very important to me, and I am not enamored of the new RL "prototype". Had the BMW 740iL had a better reputation service wise, I would have bought one, albeit a CPO model coming back from a two year lease. That car, IMO, is classically handsome and decidedly upscale. It is and was a true flagship automobile.

    My Acura Legend is still, as viewed from the side, a lean and handsome car. But the front and back of the new RL is neither. Moreover, it is apparent to me that Acura has ceded the top dog spot to Lexus's LS430 and Mercedes S class. I had hoped that they would aspire to be better than the E class and Audi 6, and take on the LS 430 or at least the Infiniti Q45 (much maligned as it is, it has many hallmarks of pure luxury).

    Will the new RL be truly deserving of the title "flagship"? Time will tell.

    Meanwhile, what's the consensus on both the current and upcoming Infiniti M35/45? I know little about the car.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    I forgot to ask, do any of guys know if the new RL is to be equipped with an automatic rear sunshade for the back window?

    Pull down sunscreens on rear side passenger windows?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well it might be another 10 or so years before Honda has the guts and makes the business case for a true S-Class/LS430 competitor. Such a car would have to be rwd and V8 powered so they may never do it. It is a very interesting contrast between Honda and Mercedes. One does big very well and arguably sets the standard with each new redesign of their biggest and best cars, but they don't do small and cheap very well. The other does small better than anyone else, at least up until recently, but they don't have inspiration, funds or corporate philosophy to do a truly big or flagship type car.

    Toyota blueprinted the best right down to nuts and bolts to get their start in the upper market and look what they have today. Maybe Honda will do the same with Lexus' LS one day. I just can't see Honda building such a car, it goes against their very being.

    The RL will never be a true "flagship" car marketwise, only Acura's "flagship".

    M
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >It is a very interesting contrast between Honda and Mercedes. One does big very well and arguably sets the standard with each new redesign of their biggest and best cars, but they don't do small and cheap very well. The other does small better than anyone else, at least up until recently, but they don't have inspiration, funds or corporate philosphy to do a truly big or flagship type car<

    Very well said, merc. Insightful and accurate, IMHO.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    That was my best Elmer Fudd -- as in "Cwazy Wabbit" fame. No offense to anyone -- not even Elmer Fudd -- was intended. Does "wong" have some sort of meaning that you would care to share with someone who grew up on Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck, and still finds them funny?
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Perhaps it's his surname?
    Hm...i used to watch those WB cartoons and it didnt come to mind at the time.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    TRUE "...Acura waited 9 years to upgrade the RL. That's hardly leadership, IMHO. They let the RL lanquish, all the while putting larger and larger engines in their less expensive, non-flagship cars. To me this neglect was inexcusable."
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Meanwhile, look at the buzz the Infiniti G35 has generated."

    Have you noticed that this future RL forum has 10x the number of posts as the '06 GS430 and '06 M45? This car is generating A LOT of buzz. Have you seen the interior of the new RL? It beats the pants off the new A6. Quite frankly I think it beats the pants of S and 7 as well. Not quite up to the A8, but that along with the LS has probably the best in the biz inside, and they both will cost alot more.

    People always mention the Q45, which is kind of funny. Why dont they do a car like the Q? You have to realize that the Q has been a FLOP, 15 years in a row. LS430 is untouchable. Acura is smart to back off from that segment. When the current Q45 is retired, I dont think you'll see another.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    yes, well put, except this forum has 10x the # of messages is because us small group of people can't stop talking... ;)

    ksso
  • steveaccordsteveaccord Member Posts: 108
    OK I guess we are doomed to keep going on debating primacy, styling and all but personally I'll wait for my final judgement until I finally see and drive the car.
    Meanwhile the only comments I would like to make is that from a look stand point we need to see the car in the various colors. I keep running across the balck model that is part of the IBM ad campaign on various magazine subscritpion I receive. Tipically there is one of the pictures that details the front of the car and I must say that I find it very attractive. I do not recall having the same reaction looking at the silver model so there is some relevance perhaps to the fact that different colours will 'paint' the look differently!

    My only gripe is eventually caused by the squat appearance the silver model had. We already run this topic and I stressed that there we may be paying a price to ACE constraints.

    Finally my dime on the 'leader' topic is that the vote will be out shortly and given objectively with our wallets, everything else is beyond the point because as in every other advanced area of commerce, research etc. it is only natural that leadership travels from one player to the next!!
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    SUBJECTIVE - "Yes, SH-AWD may be a nifty feature (we will have to watch and wait to know for sure), but that aside, the cosmetics of this car are hardly inspiring or cutting edge? More than uninspiring, the new RL is ugly in some areas (nose and trunk) and with respect to the trunk, derivative of BMW's 7 series styling disaster. Plus they have made the car shorter - to me a negative. A car that looks like a Camry is hardly illustrative of leadership in action.? I personally like the less than "In-your-face" styling of the RL. The frequent comparison to the Camry is tired! Viewed from different angles, the RL is sufficiently distinctive to set it apart from others. As said by many, the RL looks gorgeous in the "flesh"!

    TRITE - "Take away the SH-AWD and what do you have? A 6 cylinder engine, no rear wheel drive, and traffic updates on your navi screen. That's not much." The notion that SH-AWD is revolutionary and vastly superior to RWD renders not having RWD moot. I mean give me a break here - what have other manufacturers introduced that is really novel and new? The RL offerings are quite impressive, noteworthy, and leading edge - IMO

    SUBJECTIVE - "Is the interior the equal of the comparably priced new Audi A6? Nope. Does it come with the free maintenance and loaner cars of the Audi? Nope." IMO the interior is superior to the Audi A6 and let's not forget we've not yet seen the final product?remember the reaction TL interior? As far as loaners are concerned, this too is moot - given the reliability of the Acura RL, loaners will be unnecessary!

    EL TORO PO PO - "No, I don't think Acura is leading this niche. Sure, a new gadget this year, but that alone does not make a leader. Overall, it seems more like catch-up rather than catch-me-if-you-can." Has it ever occurred to you and others that Acura has no desire to play in the super-lux sand box? It seems, they have instead, concentrated their efforts and resources to produce, what promises to be, a world-class, performance oriented, upper-mid level luxury automobile!

    MAYBE - "It is a very interesting contrast between Honda and Mercedes. One does big very well and arguably sets the standard with each new redesign of their biggest and best cars, but they don't do small and cheap very well. The other does small better than anyone else, at least up until recently, but they don't have inspiration, funds or corporate philosophy to do a truly big or flagship type car." The introduction of SH-AWD is indeed "inspirational" and forward thinking! There is nothing wrong with a corporate philosophy that avoids doing a "truly big or flagship type car" - why not focus on producing a much more profitable, best of class, upper-mid level luxury car? Honda/Acura has fairly deep pockets as witnessed by them going into the aircraft jet engine business - so if they really wanted to go the V8-RWD route they could easily do so?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    As another cartoon character, Homer Simpson says "DOH!" -- I was scratching my head trying to figure out why I had apparently raised the ire of a couple of people with my written imitation of Elmer Fudd. I had not made a connection to anyone's name -- if y'all thought I was somehow making fun of someone's name, well I assure you I didn't even notice the w-o-n-g buried in the poster's name. I was just attempting to be "vewy, vewy silwy" since we were talking about "aura" or "aurora" or whatever typo or play on words that had preceded.

    I was born in 1951 and grew up on Warner Brother's cartoons -- especially Bugs Bunny. It is as simple and as complicated as that -- no play on words was even thought of, as in I didn't even notice the connection between Elmer's pronunciation and a proper name.

    I've participated a lot on these forums and on others and although I admit we, or many of us, seem to be quite willing to go off topic, I have rarely (if ever) seen any posts of a disrespectful nature (of course they are probably zapped by the hosts). Even when we "argue" with each other, I have not felt that people said negative things about the other posters -- now if someone says "that's the dumbest thing I have ever heard" -- I have to assume they don't think I'm the dumbest person, but that my remark was in their estimation dumb.

    The essence of these forums I have always assumed is to discuss, debate, agree, disagree and put forth opinions and maybe from time to time, facts!

    Now I get it, I'm so old, that a reference to "Silwy Wabbit" is a disconnect with the youngsters here in the town hall (and that is probably everyone BUT me). Well I've got another one for you, "I remember Eisenhower" even though it was just when I was a kid. You know, Bob Eisenhower, of the Jacksoville Eisenhower's? Just kidding. Of course I mean Ike.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    I thought your "Wong" comment was quite witty and did not interpret it to be insultive in any fashion... I too am from your generation, albeit a little older - and have a great appreation for "Demer Dudd"
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    Thanks for your posting. I've been getting so tired of all the Acurabashing going on in here it was a pleasant change of pace to read your posting. Specifically:

    Subjective.... - I've seen the RL in person, at the NYC auto show. I, and the friends I was with, all fell in love with the styling. Definitely not as stylish or distinctive as some brands, but I really liked it.

    Trite.... - I live in the DC area. We get very wet, slick snow in the winter, which, combined with many hilly roads, makes wintertime driving hazardous. I would NOT own an RWD car. A friend has a BMW5 series. He has to leave it sitting when it snows because it won't move in the snow. I can hardly wait for the AWD RL - I'm sure it'll take care of the few problems I have with FWD.

    SUBJECTIVE... - what I've seen of the interior of the RL, I think I'm going to really like it. Of course, I'll have to sit in it to be sure. However, I'm sure it'll be comparable, but better, than the TL and I liked it when I test drove it. As far as reliability, I've owned Acuras since 1990. I've had problems here and there, but absolutely none of the problems rendered either of them undriveable. That's more than I can say about friends' BMWs and Mercs.

    EL TORO PO PO... - hear, hear. I totally second that!!

    MAYBE... - amen!

    Over the last 15 years, I've walked into Mercedes dealerships a half dozen times, with the intention of seriously considering one. Each time, I've walked out having been totally ignored by each and every salesman. I guess they didn't consider me good enough to drive one of their products. A friend has owned BMWs for the past 10 years. He does nothing but complain about the superior attitude of everyone at his dealership, down to, and including, the service personnel. Other than one sour service manager, who was replaced shortly after I and a friend both complained about him to the owner, I've been shown nothing but respect and courtesy from everyone at my Acura dealership. That has engendered loyalty that will keep me an Acura owner for many years to come.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I agree with your post, except the part about it HAS to be RWD -- I am coming to believe more and more that either FWD or RWD eventually will be seen as a handicap in the premium market. Remember, "our" love for SUV's is "driven" in no small measure by our desire for go anywhere, anytime under any condition prowess (and as we keep being told, 96% of all SUV's never go off road, so the value of AWD must be for the soccer moms and dads to "buy" a measure of control and safety that TWD just doesn't have).

    The fact that all the major big premium players are moving to offer some or line wide AWD is also a clue about the future of AWD, FWD and RWD -- that is ultimately TWD has a limited future with the possible exception of "lower cost" (but hardly Premium) class cars.

    The subject of V8 I agree with completely, but then all this hybrid stuff makes me even wonder if it's not how you make the power but how much power you have without regard to the number of moving parts under the bonnet.

    Or perhaps put another way to say it: it's not the HP or torque figures that can be touted but the performance figures -- period. In other words, if your "vehicle" can accelerate "on demand" to your minimum standard/acceptable level -- say 0 - 60mph in 5 seconds, why would you care if the number of cylinders under the hood is 2, 4, 5, 8, 10 or 16?) You would care only if you had performance with low economy, probably. But if you had decent performance and economy -- I'll wager the engine or engines (plural) configuration will be of little concern. Today V8 = "something." However, when the Acrua 3.5L V6 puts out 300HP and a reasonable amount of torque and when this level of performance extends beyond Acura and Audi (to name just two) -- AND can provide the performance and economy you demand, no one will even care about the number of cylinders (clearly we aren't there yet, but this Acura and the new FSI V6 from Audi are indications that engines will be evaluated more on performance than on just cubic inches and # of cylinders.)

    The phrase, "there's no replacement for displacement" really has given way, somewhat, to the phrase, "there's no replacement for volumetric efficiency" (of course assuming one in talking about internal combustion engines, which if the car is internal combustion + electric motor driven may even be no longer relevant).
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    I thought your "Wong" comment was quite witty and did not interpret it to be insultive in any fashion... I too am from your generation, albeit a little older - and have a great appreation for "Demer Dudd"
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    What Acura bashing are we talking about? Even lexusguy and I (my name could be audiguy) don't seem to bash Acura THAT much.

    The only thing I can think to say about the RL is that the line needed to be refreshed a few years ago. Bygones.

    I have all the order guides now for the new A6 (no prices, yet) and I can't wait to get them for the RL. These two vehicles (if they both come in under $50K and have attractive lease offerings) will (or should be) the ones to beat "this year."

    Lots of positive and anticipatory comments pepper this thread, but the few negs hardly make me feel this is the Acura bashing site.

    I'd love to do two 24 hour test drives of the Acura RL and the Audi A6 3.2FSI, equipped as close as possible to each other (in content and $$$$ that is).

    I am keen to try them both and think, to this day, that both of these are in the Premium class (or really close anyway) but are not priced as high as many that are also in that rarified price sector.

    Bargain? Well maybe too strong of a word for a $45 - $55K car, but how about value? I have said it before, with respect to the Audi, price out a 6cylinder 5 Series Bimmer and an A6 -- the Audi, generally, will have a V8 and AWD for the same money as the Bimmer.

    That is at least part of my definition of "value" -- welcome Acura to the same class. Price out a new STS with AWD -- can you say NORTH of $60 large? Price out a new 5 series with a 6 cylinder -- try north of $54K equipped as it would seem the RL will be equipped (or as close as is reasonable) -- and the Bimmer is still two wheel drive.

    I watch the BMW's on I275 around our fair city, Cincinnapolis, whenever there is "weather" -- I just keep humming the tune by Paul Simon "Slip Slidin' Away" as I pass them going up a slight grade while they sit and spin and fishtail. . .

    The Acura RL is -- Audi shake just a little bit -- the Japanese Audi (wannabe for sure and maybe challenger for sure, too).

    And all this "love" and most of us have never even seen one in "the flesh" so to speak.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Mark - well said!

    MOST RELEVANT & INTELLIGENT RECENT PARAGRAPH POSTED "Or perhaps put another way to say it: it's not the HP or torque figures that can be touted but the performance figures -- period. In other words, if your "vehicle" can accelerate "on demand" to your minimum standard/acceptable level -- say 0 - 60mph in 5 seconds, why would you care if the number of cylinders under the hood is 2, 4, 5, 8, 10 or 16?) You would care only if you had performance with low economy, probably. But if you had decent performance and economy -- I'll wager the engine or engines (plural) configuration will be of little concern. Today V8 = "something." However, when the Acrua 3.5L V6 puts out 300HP and a reasonable amount of torque and when this level of performance extends beyond Acura and Audi (to name just two) -- AND can provide the performance and economy you demand, no one will even care about the number of cylinders (clearly we aren't there yet, but this Acura and the new FSI V6 from Audi are indications that engines will be evaluated more on performance than on just cubic inches and # of cylinders.)"
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    >>What Acura bashing are we talking about?

    Ok, maybe Acura bashing is too strong a statement. How about condescension towards Acura, i.e., since it isn't RWD, V8, or doesn't have fantastic styling like BMW, then it will never be a 'real' luxury car. That seems to be the gist of a number of posts on here. Oh well, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >Lots of positive and anticipatory comments pepper this thread, but the few negs hardly make me feel this is the Acura bashing site.<

    Gee, I guess I gored somebody's ox today.

    As I recall, this particular volley derived from another gent's questioning of Acura's leadership. Shotgun, you yourself concurred on the point about how Acura allowed the RL to wither on the vine, all the while tending to it's lesser bretheren, forsaking the RL for nine years.

    While it's true, that I have not seen the car in person, nor sat within it, my comments must therefore derive from the photographs I have seen. What I have seen and how I react to that is, as Shotgun points out, subjective.

    While some you gearheads (or performance enhusiasts, if you prefer) are apparently enthralled and enraptured over the SH-AWD feature, I will stick to my guns and assert that the addition and development of this one feature is not in and of itself enough for me to spontaneously start drooling over the car. That's assuming that it in fact delivers on what is promised. Have any of you actually driven the car?

    I am not one to buy a car because it has one nifty feature. Be it a larger engine, a 7 speed tranny over a 6 speed, or the new SH-AWD. I have lived in Chicago for many years and know winter driving as well as anybody. Front wheel drive was a boon to winter traction. While I would imagine the AWD would be even more sure footed, it's not an issue for me because I left those cold and icy winters behind when I moved to California. For me, a front or rear wheel drive car would be fine.

    I enjoy driving a well built, road hugging performance sedan, with good looks and enough muscle. Until I can actually drive the new RL I won't know about the former; and as to the latter, again, what I have seen in photos doesn't impress me -- obviously a subjective opinion, but nonetheless one that I'm entitled to hold until I see it for myself up close and personal. Maybe the paint colors will indeed make a big difference,as one of you gents have pointed out.

    As to the "bashing" (more a critique, in my view), Acura deserves a little bashing in light of it's prolonged neglect of its Legend and RL customers. We were left without a viable replacement car to buy for a good many years. As an Acura owner (and Honda before that), I have earned the right to pontificate on my beefs with the parent company -- a company that is notorious for its secrecy, and, IMO, from it's aloof disconnect from it's customers who have long been saying, but not getting, what they wanted in a new RL. If anyone is condescending, hold a mirror up to Acura's ivory tower! (and watch out for the moat)
    Let us not forget that many people, some of you included, had been hoping for a V-8 and rear while drive. Acura did not give you what you wanted, did they? Did they give you something better? Only time will tell for sure.

    So, for those of you who are wet with anticipation -- - I say great, count the days and enjoy! For those of us who were less than enthralled we too have the right to free speech, lawful assembly and peaceful grousing ... would be customers ponying up $50,000 are entitled to a little bit of condescension and verbalized critique.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    >>>number of moving parts under the bonnet.<<<
    haven't heard bonnet in a while now...
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    >>"there's no replacement for volumetric efficiency"<<<

    you are expecting too much of the general masses... that's too difficult to say, forget write, type or spell...

    ;)
    ksso
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "she's gotta have an 8" is a relic of a statement left over from 30 years ago when a six cylinder meant somebody settled for the absolute base engine, and the only way to performance was 400+ ci, and 5 gallons to the mile. There are several replacements for displacement. The Lancer Evo MR displaces 2.0L, which is enough for it to produce 280hp, run mid 4 second 0-60s, and SCHOOL a very large number of V8 cars. Turbos, Superchargers, and hybrid "electric turbo" engines make a V8 no longer necessary. Those of you that follow WRC will know of the WRX STi 22b, a legendary 4-banger that could show Dodge Viper a thing or too.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Well said. Acura is going a different route than the standard luxury RWD, v8.

    To some, a good v6 with SH-AWD is great b/c they were never going to get a v8 anyway and they live in climates where AWD is useful.

    Overall, I think Acura going a different route is a good thing. If one must HAVE a RWD v8, then there is plenty of choices out there from other manufacturers.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    While I agree with you that a V8 is NOT a must in any sedan now that 300HP v6 are a reality, I have to disagree that there are adequate replacements for displacement.

    IMHO, there is no replacement for displacement. The turbo lag from high powered superchargers make it much less useful for normal everyday driving (racing is different story) and they can also blow up an engine.

    High revving, low displacement engines burn up a lot of gas at those high revs and have no thrust at lower rpms. Plus running an engine at such high revs constantly will wear it out real fast.

    The IMA assist solution sounds great because it provides a low end power boost (which is where low displacement engines are weakest), but now there are 2 motors to build, repair and fix. I'll pass until I see how IMA motors perform over time.

    IMO, the best fuel saving technology available at this time is GM's DoD (Displacement on Demand) and DC's MDS (Multi-Displacement System) which shuts off half the cylinders when power is not needed.

    You're getting v8 power when you need it and v4 fuel economy when you don't need v8 power. It averages out to v8 power and v6 fuel economy, which is pretty good.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Quite to the contrary Legendman, you didn't gore anyone's ox. You simply once again provided a thought provoking post that evoked some good emotions and counterpoints. Now regarding your statement:

    "As I recall, this particular volley derived from another gent's questioning of Acura's leadership. Shotgun, you yourself concurred on the point about how Acura allowed the RL to wither on the vine, all the while tending to it's lesser bretheren, forsaking the RL for nine years."

    In my haste to post my message I experienced a brain fart and inadvertently posted the message prematurely before it was complete - below is the post as originally intended.

    TRUE "...Acura waited 9 years to upgrade the RL. That's hardly leadership, IMHO. They let the RL languish, all the while putting larger and larger engines in their less expensive, non-flagship cars. To me this neglect was inexcusable." Whereas I concur with this statement I also realize that few, if any, individuals or corporations are perfect - so Acura screwed up by letting "their" flagship get a little long in the tooth, so what?! Look at the Germans, French, Italians, and Americans, they too had and currently have their "inexcusables". But to Acura's credit, when they did finally wake up and smelled the coffee, they responded - and I might add, responded in spades with the likes of the MDX, TL, TSX, and now RL. It took Renault to kick a little butt with Nissan for them to smell the coffee and look how far and fast they've come - so much so, that I have a 03' FX in my garage. Let's face it guys - things tend to be cyclical and accordingly, Acura is now approaching the apex (or shall we say, apogee)! They will not be denied...they shall have their moment in the sun!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    A point of slight correction, there is no turbo (or super) lag in a supercharged engine.

    Moreover, while it certainly is possible that "blowing" an engine via super or turbo charging may "blow up" the engine, well that is pretty remote, so much so that it is probably not likely to be considered a weakness anymore.

    And, as far as power goes, the main benefit of blowing (say turbocharging for the sake of argument) is bags of torque at low, low RPM's.

    Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding, I do agree that running an engine a super high RPM's will shorten its lifespan. But today with the combination of turbocharging and direct injection it is possible for a lowly 2.0L engine to have plenty of torque and horsepower and not be required to run at anywhere near redline to march on down the highway at speeds above 70mph and still have plenty of juice for the wide open spaces where it is possible to run at average speeds of 80+mph even though these speeds are almost universally illegal in most states.

    While it may be difficult to spell or type volumetric efficiency, this (air charging someway, either turbo or super), along with ultra high compression (12:1) -- for a gasoline engine -- permits more power, less pollution, and higher milage. Both Mercedes and Audi, to name but two, have FSI (fuel stratified or direct injection, take your pick) engines that appear to have been made ready for prime time.

    You can bet, just as some companies have done with turbo diesels, that the advent of ever cleaner fuels (both gas and diesel) and ever higher technologies such as FSI+blowing will push the size of engines smaller, their power and economy higher and even their reliability north.

    Not to suggest gloom and doom, but this is apparently what we will need as we head toward higher and higher cost fuel. $5 (or higher) a gallon gasoline, unfortunately, could be one of the consequences of some pretty nasty happenings in the middle east. All will not cease on the automotive front, there will be pushes, still for more power but with more and more efficiency. Shortages of gasoline due to political reasons should only exacerbate the situation. Likewise the buying public will in effect "force" carmakers to figure out better and better ways to make their engines breathe ("forced induction" yuk yuk, I crack myself up).

    Improvements in engine efficiencies keep happening and generally what happens with each step in this direction is the realization that there IS, after all, a replacement for displacement.

    Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

    Acura and Audi, this upcoming year, at least, suggest, however, that I might be right -- maybe.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    RL's 3.5/V6 can be expected to have 260-265 lb.-ft of peak torque, with 90% or more of it available for much of the rev range, may I dare to say, from 2000 rpm to somewhere around 6500 rpm. If RL were just a front driver, we would be able to predict massive torque steer. Thankfully, it will have AWD.

    RL, for all practical purposes will have more than enough grunt that is needed for the leadfooted, and for the softfooted. So much for "no replacement for displacement logic". While this engine displaces the same 3.5/V6 that it did in 2000 Odyssey pumping only 210 HP/229 lb.-ft hauling a 4400 lb minivan, technology has answered the call.

    And for the sake of it, hybrid powertrain would make up for "not following the herd" logic (yes, the "V8 thing"). Electric motors have less moving parts, and are far more sturdier than a comparable ICE. In case of Civic Hybrid, the DC motor basically looks like an enlarged version of the motor that runs the ceiling fan.
  • keitaroukeitarou Member Posts: 45
  • cericceric Member Posts: 1,092
    Hi, Mark,
    Who am I to argue with you about your comment about "wong"?
    I have no relationship with dcwong1. It just seems to me that his/her last name might be "Wong", and I, somehow, never learn to appreciate joke or "witty comment" associated with someone's last name.
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    I'm wondering if that 3.5L V6 in the Odyssey, that you "think" will be in the RL, was of the SHOC type? However, if the engine in the new RL is a 3.5L V6 DOHC - that would actually make it the "new and our most powerful engine yet" crowed about by Acura's Dick Colliver. On a side note and as a general rule of thumb, are DOHC engines more powerful and torquey than the SOHC variety? Exactly what is the benefit of the DOHC vs SOHC design?
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    I hear you Ceric and read you loud and clear - surnames should not be joked about...it's insensitive! Allow to apologize for hinting it was a "witty comment"...
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    As far as I'm concerned your torque #s on the RL are pie in the sky.

    The 3.5L SOHC v6 in the MDX, which is what the RL engine will probably be based on, gets 253 ft. lb. torque @ 3,500 to 5,000 rpm, which is quite high to get max torque. In contrast, GM's 3.9L OHV v6 gets 245 ft. lb. @ 2,8000 rpm.

    Given that the RL and MDX engine will be very similar (maybe even the SAME engine), it seems likely that the MDX is tuned for greater torque while the RL is tuned for greater HP, probably at higher RPMs.

    If anything, the torque #s on the RL will be lower than the 253 ft.lb. torque in the MDX engine.

    I'm curious as to where you derive your numbers because IMO they seem overly optimistic.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Incorrect. As mark stated, superchargers dont lag. Take a drive in a C32 AMG. The power is all there, all at once, right away. OEM application turbos and superchargers are VERY tame, they arent even remotely using the "stage V" levels of psi that will blow an engine. As for turbo lag, it depends on the car. The WRX has some lag yes. The A6 2.7T on the other hand, has pretty much none. Also, I dont believe anyone has complained about the Porsche 911 Turbo having only a 3.6L flat six.

    As for hybrids, Toyota and Honda have 100K warranties on their electric parts, so there reallly isnt much to worry about.
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    I never imagine that my last name would create a such a stir. After reading all the posts, there seems to be a lot of passion with Acuras and/or the RL. The true test is to test drive the RL when it comes out this fall. Numbers like hp and torque can be deceiving and as far as I know, nobody has experienced the new RL so it's pure speculation on how the new car will turn out. We certainly do not know what Honda / Acura is thinking. Maybe the "flagship" montage is not to compete with cars costing $10-20K more than the RL but to compete with cars similar to its price range but offer them a superior driving automobile plus the legendary reliability. Let's hope the old Acura motto of "Precision Crafted Performance" still stands true.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    It's most likely that Honda's 3.5L v6 in the RL will be SOHC b/c Honda makes a 3.0L SOHC v6 for the Accord, a 3.2L SOHC v6 for the TL (which is a bored-out, high compression version of the Accord v6) and a 3.5L SOHC v6 for the Odyssey and Pilot, and a bored out, high compression version of the 3.5L SOHC v6 for the MDX.

    IMO, the RL's 3.5L SOHC v6 will probably be the same engine as in the MDX, just tuned for more HP and less torque. There's no definite info. yet so we'll wait and see.

    As for the differences between SOHC and DOHC, SOHC stands for Single Overhead Cam and DOHC for Double Overhead Cam. In an inline configuration, an SOHC has 1 cam and a DOHC has 2 cams. In a V configuration, SOHC has 2 cams (one for each wing of the V, and DOHC has 4 cams (2 for each wing of the V).

    DOHC should theoretically be better because having 2 cams means you can have better cam profiles for different rpm ranges, plus there are tricks on intake and exhaust that are possible with double cams. The disadvantage, especially in the V configuration, is that the extra cams makes the engine bigger, more expensive and harder to mod and repair.

    Honda's SOHC engines do just fine against even the best DOHCs so I don't see any reason for Honda to deviate from its winning formula.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Incorrect. As mark stated, superchargers dont lag. Take a drive in a C32 AMG. The power is all there, all at once, right away. OEM application turbos and superchargers are VERY tame, they arent even remotely using the "stage V" levels of psi that will blow an engine. As for turbo lag, it depends on the car. The WRX has some lag yes. The A6 2.7T on the other hand, has pretty much none. Also, I dont believe anyone has complained about the Porsche 911 Turbo having only a 3.6L flat six.

    Huh, maybe I'm off on OEM superchargers. My exp. with superchargers is when racing my bro's drag racer with nitrous and cold forced air induction, and in that application, there is a definite lag.

    We've both blown that engine every once in a while so I'm leery of superchargers.

    I also have friends with superchargers on street legal cars and when I ride in 'em, it seems to me like that it takes a second or two for the supercharger to kick in. However, these are aftermarkets and maybe more powerful and not as integrated to the engine as OEM superchargers.
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    >Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong<

    Hey Mark, I already borrowed that line from Dennis Miller. Steal your own!

    ;-)

    LEGENDMAN
  • legendmanlegendman Member Posts: 362
    I was poking around a few of the car websites tonight scouting for any additional photos I hadn't seen. One photo revealed the tire pressure and load capacity of the car, and the factory installed tire size: 255/50R/17

    There are only a handful of tires that size -- per the Tire Rack web site. My guess is that following Honda/Acura tradition, the new RL will be shod in Michelins. The only Michelins in this size apparently are:

    Michelin Pilot Sport A/S (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
    Size: 245/50WR17 Blackwall
    WR Speed Rated
    Price: $205

    Over $800 bucks boys for a replacement set of tires! Believe it or not, these tires have a layer of KEVLAR built in. I wonder if that makes them bulletproof? Tough, anyway.

    Oh well, to balance that costly news I did find out something else about the car's warranty that's really good news. Apparently there will be a power train warranty of 60 months/100,000 miles. This is in addition to the bumper to bumper warranty.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    >>IMHO, there is no replacement for displacement. The turbo lag from high powered superchargers make it much less useful for normal everyday driving (racing is different story) and they can also blow up an engine.<<

    True

    >>High revving, low displacement engines burn up a lot of gas at those high revs and have no thrust at lower rpms. Plus running an engine at such high revs constantly will wear it out real fast.<<

    Ummm, not necessarily true. We are talking 2004 engines, not 1904. Man and materials have moved a long long way. Half the new aluminium components in today's aluminium cars are glued, not rivetted or welded and yet they have better structural stuff together... just for example... there's plenty of materials out there that will take your high compression, high rev engines to work for 400-500 thousand miles.

    >>>The IMA assist solution sounds great because it provides a low end power boost (which is where low displacement engines are weakest), but now there are 2 motors to build, repair and fix. I'll pass until I see how IMA motors perform over time.<<<

    To some extent true, but maybe not, but its not new spanking technology, its just new application of a very old technology. Electric motors have been around for a century or more.. Again, today's marriage of the two is only possible because of advancement in materials to make elec-motors lighter and power storage options (batteries) feasible. I have a friend who bought maybe one of the first 10 honda insights, have not heard him complain once, except for how impractical the 2 seat car is for his real life... He has had it for over the typical 4 years now, i think...

    >>>IMO, the best fuel saving technology available at this time is GM's DoD (Displacement on Demand) and DC's MDS (Multi-Displacement System) which shuts off half the cylinders when power is not needed.<<<
    Again, had it not being for electronics and computer management of engines, this would not have been such a great idea... i've heard of mechanical variants of this same concept from couple of decades ago where they just didn't work...

    >>>You're getting v8 power when you need it and v4 fuel economy when you don't need v8 power. It averages out to v8 power and v6 fuel economy, which is pretty good.<<<
    Agreed.

    Ok, i'm going to drive out to Rhode Islands in the wife's 3. Is it convertible weather today? we'll see...
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    Any word if Acura will offer a free maintenance schedule like the Germans for the RL? How about long service intervals like every 15K for oil changes, etc?
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    Good news indeed if true! What, may I ask, is your source?

    "Oh well, to balance that costly news I did find out something else about the car's warranty that's really good news. Apparently there will be a power train warranty of 60 months/100,000 miles. This is in addition to the bumper to bumper warranty"
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Hey if you're gonna steal, you might as well steal from the best! And, just like George Harrison, I'll take the route that says "the theft was unintentional" (and at the time I didn't even connect it), but I won't lose any sleep over it.

    And, similarly (in terms of intention), since my attempt to -- in print -- imitate Edmer Fudd apparently ticked off people who are more observant than I (in that I didn't connect the poster's name to Elmer Fudd, unobservant buffoon that I apparently have become in my old age), I could hardly say I've been "wong, Silwy Wabbit," anymore.

    Back to the HP and torque war issue, hopefully I won't get sideways with anybody on this subject other than in the discussion and debate sense of the word.

    What little additional homework I have done here on the Internet leads me to repeat: there is no "lag" on a supercharged engine. It is impossible (and I guess I better say virtually impossible since I am not an internal combustion engineer). The blower (impeller) of a supercharger is driven by a belt that is driven in turn by a pulley attached to the engine -- the supercharger "instantaneously" increases the "volumetric efficiency" of the engine. A turbo charger can have some very pronounced lag since its impellers are driven by the flow of exhaust gasses. Smaller turbos and "bi-turbos" do a great job of reducing turbo lag to almost nothing (the Audi 2.7T and the 4.2T are such examples). The torque of most turbo engines comes on early and sticks around for a long time -- the 2.7T engine [may it rest in peace] produces either 258 or 280 foot pounds of torque from south of 2,000 rpm to north of 5,000 rpm with horsepower of 250 or 265 respectively. The normally aspirated 4.2 engine produces 280 0r 295 (and in higher output versions much higher) foot pounds but it comes on ~ 3,500 rpm and begins to fade less than 2,000 rpm later.

    Blowing engines generally beefs up the absolute torque and fattens the curve (torque is "broadly" available throughout the range, i.e.)

    It is very difficult for me to imagine the RL's 3.5 engine as having its usable torque come on anywhere in the vicinity of 2,000 RPMs. Moreover, it probably will have a somewhat narrow curve (hopefully from 3,000 rpms to 5,000 rpms, at least) compared with a similar engine that had forced induction. The engine has been, apparently, tuned for "bragging" rights (300hp) rather than accelerative performance, since the 3.5 is of a rather conventional design(and this is NOT to say that is a bad thing). To improve its acceleration, assuming my guess that the torque ratings will be "OK" or "good" but not "oh wow, impressive," Acura may have elected to lower the final drive ratio (which means it would be higher numerically) and made 5th gear a bit taller "overdrive" (in an effort to raise its combined MPG). This latter approach, with a 5 speed, however has at least one drawback and that is the possibility that the car will at certain speeds and on relatively mild grades appear to "hunt" between 4th and 5th gear as the computer sends signals to the transmission in an attempt to keep the engine revs within the (possibly) narrow torque curve that such an approach "might" engender.

    A six speed transmission with both 5th and 6th being overdriven, but 5th only mildly so, would somewhat counter and "mask" the hunting that could have been engineered in if such an approach (short final drive with relatively tall 5th gear overdrive) is actually taken.

    My limited experience with Acuras is that they are generally smooth and do not do much hunting with respect to their automatics. The new engine and the possible limitations that may arise from a combination of high HP and relatively narrow and less robust torque are, however, unknown (and unknowable) to us all until we drive it for ourselves and read multiple journalists takes on the car (and probably a comparo or two, too).

    Finally, my hope is for a 6 speed direct or constant velocity automatic transmission (and, hope against hope, a 6 speed manual), and while I'm wishing upon a star, two tiny turbos or direct injection to raise both the power and the economy (and broaden it somewhat in the process).

    My impression of Honda (Acura) is they are up to all of these engineering challenges.

    And, while I'm wishing, I wish they at the very least make the transmission have no worse than a 50 50 torque split rather than the reported 90 10 split f&r (what were they thinking if this is true?)
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    markcincinnati, you mentioned that the torque ratio is a 90:10 split f&r. Are you saying it is a fixed ratio or can it vary the torque between f&r if it detects one of the axle is losing traction?

    I don't see the 6 speed auto coming for at least a year or two. I'm sure money has a lot to do with developing a 6 speed auto for only 1 car but why not have this on their "flagship" car and then filter it down to the TL, MDX, etc.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I had exactly these tires in exactly this size on my 2003 Audi allroad -- the tires @ 19,000 miles were so noisy that my Bose audio system could hardly compete. I had purchased the tires on day one of ownership of my then brand new Audi. These tires are underwhelming in EVERY sense of the word, beyond 15,000 miles -- and yes they cost, ON LINE $820 plus shipping plus mounting and balancing. Hopefully Acrua will

    #1 go with 18" rims
    #2 go with a tire size that permits some consumer choice, for, if they offer Summer only tires, it needs to be stated that only the very lucky will get 20,000 miles out of UHP or MAX performance Summer tires.

    #2a Hopefully there will be an A/S option (UHP) and a Summer option (UPH or MAX) with choices from the big names and the second tier names (I have used Yokohama, Falken and Cooper tires -- UHP Z or higher rated -- with great results and somewhat lower prices).
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The torque split, according to published (but not from Acura) reports is initially 90% front 10% rear. It is variable from front to rear (and SH AWD can even direct an extra 5% torque to the outside rear wheel when cornering). The current AWD bashers -- and boy there sure are a lot of them -- point out (with merit) that RWD biased AWD offers "the best of RWD and the best of AWD" but that AWD that is wildly FWD biased (such as the Acrua and Volvo systems appear to be) is only "posing" at the high performance AWD game. Audi, long an AWD leader has begrudgingly stated its intention to address the RWD AWD camp in the following way (Audi's bias is, at this point in history, a 50% 50% split): move the front wheels foward, improving the weight balance (step one the new A6) and then bias the torque split to something less than 50% 50% (my "guess" 40% 60%). Audis method of achieving at least a mitigation of the criticisms that FWD biased AWD is "just posing" has been to be 50% 50% split with a torque sensing (TORSEN) center differential that allows "mechanically" instantaneous transfer of motive force to the wheel(s) with the most traction. Other systems use electronic methods to "brake" slipping wheels -- using the sensors in the ABS/ESP system to tell them where the traction "isn't." The advocates of RWD bias (as I said, "with merit") correctly argue that the load shift upon acceleration favors a set-up that doesn't have to shift ("instantaneously" it is felt -- and I must agree -- is not the same as "already being RWD biased in the first place") from front to rear.

    Moreover, the willingness of a car that is purring along -- 90% being pulled and 10% being pushed -- to "wag its tail" in aggressive cornering situations is, shall we say, potentially diminished.

    Ideally, so advocates, drivers and engineers say, you would want the car to be as weight-balanced as possible (50 50 would be nice) and equipped with [somewhat] rear biased AWD. BMW and Mercedes (and soon Chrysler) are or have already biased their AWD cars 40% 60% or 32% 68%in the name of keeping the [RWD] faith.

    The funny thing, for me -- a "proper" AWD set up is always superior to virtually any RWD guy -- is to watch BMW, especially, morph apparently painfully into product wide AWD. Oh how it must have galled certain folks to see the iDrive campaigns with the four flying "traction angels" -- and worse the "wet tongue, frozen pole" campaign must've caused some to run for the rubber rooms. For, you see, the BMW mantra used to be so anti-anything-Audi and anti-AWD that you could taste it, [even] in the US BMW dealerships. Now, there are two Sport Activity Vehicles, two 3 series and this upcoming year the 5 series that are moving to All Wheel Drive (either standard or optional).

    The recent executive's moves from BMW to Audi, in Germany, must also gall the RWD stalwarts, too -- as Audi is quickly (compared to other's apparent moves kicking and screaming) moving to more neutral weight distribution and the engineering changes needed to embrace slightly RWD biased AWD.

    It has taken others (from all corners of the globe) almost 20 years to "stop fighting [AWD] and switch." Audi's Dr. Piech some 20+ years ago prophesized that "someday all high performance cars would be AWD" -- he was, from time to time, shall we say "dis'd" for this "theory." Yet, when all the other guys start encroaching on Audi's "differentiator" -- quattro -- Audi quickly has responded.

    As one who has watched and sometimes [even] wondered if Piech perhaps was a bit "off" (for twenty years) it is now amazing and gratifying to see virtually all Premium Performance cars announcing their plans to move rapidly into AWD (as if it was their idea all along.) You hold your head up Dr. P!

    Acura, despite the 90% 10% (IF this is indeed accurate) initial split with the RL's SH AWD, has, as I have been arguing since 1984, just put another nail in the coffin of RWD (insofar as Premium High Performance cars that mere mortals drive on public roadways drive).

    So, finally, my "prediction" is that Acura will, ultimately, make its FWD biased AWD a non-issue (by completely ignoring it or by engineering a slight RWD bias, within the first update [no more than 2 year, perhaps] of the new RL).

    I love choices -- and despite the fact that Audi will soon no longer be unique (along with Subaru) in its AWD offerings, the choices for 2005 and beyond are exciting.

    Drive it like you live.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Most of the supercharged cars I've driven that have the perception of some lag are mostly from the transmition, and not the actual blower itself. My own XKR is a good example. Even with all the sport shift buttons on, its pretty much impossible to make the Jag spin its wheels. Jag does this on purpose, the S-type R is the same way. They feel a "tire squealin" Jag would be somewhat undignified, and not inline with the image of the brand, so Jags have very tall 1st gears, and the real power really doesnt hit until the engine is north of 4500 rpm in 1st gear.

    The Mustang Cobra, which uses the same Eaton blower, is not that way. Mercedes blown E55, even with only a 5-speed, is a MONSTER.
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