Pontiac Bonneville

smfran

In order to keep my lease payments close to what they are now, I think I'll need to use every incentive available. The $750.00 will certainly help; I think it was $500.00 when I switched from the 1997 to the 2000. I also believe there is a $3000.00 rebate.

I've posted before that quality in a vehicle is sometimes luck of the draw combined with personal driving habits. I've been lucky and am a conservative driver that keeps his vehicles maintained. I've had 10 GM vehicles and put high mileage on all of them with no major complaints.
Of course there are certain makes of cars that have a better reputation for quality but meanwhile, if you go to the Toyota and Honda boards, you'll find plenty of complaints there. I'm willing to take a chance with an Envoy. I will however go for the 100,000 mile warrantee for the peace of mind. Plus I have a lot of faith in my dealer's service department.

I'll post my reactions to the test drive.

Stephen

bunky36

Here's another link with several new pics of the Bonneville GXP at the '03 Detroit Auto Show (some mislabeled as Grand Prix GXP). There are both Bonneville and GP GXP photos on the link as well as some of the 2004 GP. Still haven't found any good ones of the Bonneville GXP interior and instrument panel.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/folder/vehicle.asp?car_id=6611

cuda

First time on for me. Got a 2000 SSEI that
I bought new. No warranty left and just
turned 50k miles. I want to know if anyone
can tell me how to take the top speed
restriction off of this thing. I bet the
top speed is close to by old Thunderbird
SC that would hit 150!

montanafan

The $3,000 rebate is for purchases, dosen't apply to leases. I think the Envoy has reduced rates and residual increases for lease incentives. Along with the loyalty, and any GM card rebates you have.

ezrapon

The new GXP at 300 hp! The old 3.8 S/C @ 285. If this is reality, Pontiac has once again brought excitement back to driving....enjoy.
  http://www.pontiac.com/concept/index.jsp

ezrapon

I like the performance aspect and the front end of the new gto, however the back end looks like a Tarus or generic rice grinder. I must say, the GXP looks much better. Looks like a late fall GXP in my driveway. Hopefully this site will generate a little discussion. The grand am with more HP than a SSEi?
I might forgo the extended warranty and sqeeze another few months out of the old SSEi until I can put money down on a V-8 Bonnie!!!

pat

Because of the derogatory ethnic slur from which they are derived, the Town Hall policy does not permit rice terms.

Please do not argue with me here about this. I do not set policy here, nor can I change it. I am charged with enforcing it which is why I point this out.

If you want to engage in a policy discussion, please email our Community Manager, Sylvia, at sylvia@edmunds.com.

Thanks!

theiceman

I agree about the GXP. I have enjoyed my SLE so much that I am very seriously thinking about trading "up" to the GXP next year. 'twould be a waste of money perhaps - the SLE has more than enough power for the kind of driving I do. Nevertheless, it just seems to be an appropriate scratch for an itch I seem to be developing.

ice

ezrapon

The term used has been around so long and aptly describes a particular genre of automobile/motorcycle (many of them built in the US). One tends to overlook or forget where the term originated. No slur or derogatory intent was meant. Where is Vin Diesel when I need him!!

smfran

but what am I so afraid of.
Sorry to bring back memories of The Partridge Family
Seriously, the test drive of the Envoy XL is impressing me. I picked it up last night and made the typical highway (yet bumper to bumper) 30 mile ride home. The perimeter vision will take some getting used to as it has tinted windows where the Bonneville does not. I also know I will miss the "Heads Up Display".
The ride is smooth and almost sedan like. The power from the standard 6 cylinder is adequate. I don't think I need the 8 even though I'm used to the supercharged 3800. I do carry a lot of weight when I'm on the road seeing customers, but I don't tow anything and am a little concerned about the reduced gas mileage anyway. The inline 6 is rated at 15/20. As I've mentioned in the past, I am usually a conservative driver and always got aprox. 22 MPG with each tank full in mixed driving with the Bonneville. I am going to take the idea from the iceman and never reset the average MPG meter in my next vehicle.
An SUV is a totally different driving experience than the Bonneville which always afforded me the ability to merge in to fast moving highway traffic effortlessly and with authority. tpken is probably familiar with the uphill merge from 95N coming from Providence, RI on to 93N (128) in Canton, MA. Having the power of the Bonneville made it a breeze.
I did expect more front storage area in the Envoy than what it has. Two small individual cupholders are an improvement over the Bonnie but still aren't large enough for the oversized travel mugs. The glove compartment is easier to access although it is not any bigger. The combination storage area/CD holder is similar in that if you have CD's in it, you really can't keep anything else in it.
After I got home with it, I took my wife (who is out driving it now and loves it - she hated all my Bonnevilles), my two kids, and their two friends out for pizza. All were comfortable and impressed. They know there is an optional DVD player available and are urging me to negotiate for it.
The dealer wants it back by noon because he needs the plates for an expected busy Presidents Day sale. He told me there are additional incentives to buy/lease now which I am prepared to do. I have mentioned the $3000.00 rebate which he has acknowledged even though he knows I am a leaser not a buyer. Montanafan has me a bit concerned because I'm trying to get the Envoy XL loaded for a maximum of $10.00 more per month than my Bonneville. I guess I'll find out soon!

pat

understood, thanks.

smfran

montanafan is correct regarding the $3000.00 rebate; not applicable to a lease. The Envoy XL I want is out of my price range so alterations will need to be made. The dealer wants $500.00 over invoice which I don't think is unreasonable considering my long term relationship with him and the exceptional service and treatment I get. It's nice to be treated like a valuable customer with no pressure in a professional way. I'm willing to extend the term beyond 36 months but don't want the extended warranty to expire before the lease is over. I'll have to find out how that works. My current warranty is 3 years/100,000 miles which is close to what I do; 30,000/year. I'll probably have to give up the 4WD and DVD player to make this work for me.

1badsidekick

Hi all, I hope someone may be able to assist here. I've also posted under the bonneville "problems" forum. My parents have a '93 SSEi, and the CD player will not play CDs, unless it is really hot. If the car has been sitting in the sun, and the temp inside is at least 80 degrees, it will usually play. Otherwise, when you put the CD in, it sits there for a while, and spits the CD back out, with "ERR" on the display. Anyone had this problem, and better yet, know how to fix it? The car has 106k on it, and I'm expecting my dad to trade it off sometime, but he and my mom would like to listen to CDs once in a while, since the radio doesn't pick up very well around here. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!

montanafan

Good to read nice things about a dealer/customer relationship. You are lucky. Depending on your needs and what you and your wife can accept, perhaps your dealer has something else that could work. The Buick Rendevous would have AWD, 3 seats and DVD. The Pontiac Aztek would have AWD, 2 seats and the DVD. The Buick has a higher residual value then the Envoy and Aztek and $1000 lease cap cost reduction as would the Aztek. They both would have the same warranty cost as the 4WD Envoy. With the snow the northeast is getting today, they should have time to search and figure two lease payments for you. Also I think I heard somewhere that GMAC dosen't write leases with the mileage allownace over 100,000 up front, so you may not have the option to go 48 months. Good luck and keep us updated.

smfran

Thanks for the info. Both my wife and I aren't fans of the Rendevous or the Aztec styling. My dealer already suggested the Aztec but it's just not for me. I'm really going to try and make the Envoy XL work. I'm still waiting for him to call me. In light of the weather conditions, maybe they closed. I'd be willing to go with 2WD, no DVD, and a 40 month (or longer)term. If necessary, I'd even forgo the extended warrantee and take a chance.

Where are you located in MA. I figured you were either from Montana, had a Pontiac Montana or a fan of Joe?!

montanafan

Drive the Aztek/Rendevous to see what they are. Then look at the numbers. Then you can judge if it is worth giving up something on the Envoy or trying the others. Plus it is only a three year lease, be up in no time.
 
 Need to have all the numbers to make your choice a wise one. If the dealer is closed, I think you can get lease payments off GM Buypower. I think they might use MSRP, but it will give clues to the difference betweeen the Rendevous, Aztek, and Envoy XL.

Choose "montanafan" as two of my brothers have them and would be the first look if I had to replace the Voyager.

smfran

You are right. I should drive the Aztec just to check it out. However, the styling is just not right for me. You are also right about three years flying by; I can't believe I've had the Bonnie almost that long.
I assume lease calculations through GMAC are "cut and dried". The dealer wants $500.00 over invoice. I assume the monthly payment is figured on that amount taking into account term, miles allowed, and any money put down. All dealers would come up with the same figure. Correct?

Are you (and your brothers) in MA? What dealers do they use for their Pontiacs?

montanafan

Bridgewater & Weymouth.

Yes, I understand the GMAC incentive leases to be set so that each dealer should deliver the same price for the same equipment. Again, check the numbers, could keep AWD and DVD and probably be more then $100@ month less with Rendevous/Aztek.

smfran

Thanks for your input. I am from the same area. I'll keep the board posted on my experience. Hopefully after losing Presidents day to the weather, the dealer will be more inclined to make things work for me; possibly reducing the $500.00 over invoice that he is figuring.

smfran

Well it's gone. I picked up my 2003 Envoy XL Friday night and waved good bye to the SSEi. It was bitter sweet due to my long term relationship with Bonnevilles; 5 since 1988. I really liked all of them.
The good news is, so far I love the Envoy. Plus, I'm with the same dealer that has always treated me well.
The Envoy appears to be just what I wanted. I'm thinking of it as a Bonneville SUV

theiceman

Bittersweet for us to Stephen. Congrats on your new ride - it's definitely a sweet one.

Don't be a stranger!

Dan

mlm4

The May 2003 issue of GM High-Tech Performance surmises that the 2004 Bonneville GXP will have a de-stroked L37 Northstar producing 285 horsepower and 290 lb-ft of torque. The thinking here is that GM would not allow the GXP to have a 300 HP motor which would compete with the Cadillac XLR (although to me it seems the cars are different enough already). However, the stronger 4T80E tranny will, along with other modifications to handle the newfound power, add significant weight to the Bonnie. GMHTP also reports that although much of what was shown on the GXP at the SEMA show will be the same, the brakes will be OEM, the interior will get carbon-fiber accents on the IP, and the front and rear facias will be slightly different. The car will also come with 17- or 18-inch wheels and be lowered. I suppose the Corsa exhausts will not make it either. Big surprise for me is that the GXP will replace (not complement) the SSEi. Maybe the supercharged 3800 will be available in the SLE?

The article further arouses my suspicions that, contrary to what was announced, there may not be 10 colors to choose from. But there are still a lot of details yet to be confirmed. GMHTP estimates prices between $38K and $43K.

theiceman

Thanks for the update Michael. At those prices - even at invoice - I'd be expanding my search somewhat...

Now, if it included the Corsa exhaust and beefier calipers and all the other goodies, maybe...

mfahey1

I agree with Dan. That's pretty heady country when you get up to those price points. I would love to see the horsepower and torque curves for the L67 and the new V-8.. More torque down low won't do much except let you spin the tires even more but if it comes in the upper range, more passing power is always a good thing. If memory serves, the L67 has 280 ft.lbs of torque in stock form so the V-8 isn't much more at all. My guess is the 32 valve setup will let it breathe better and make its power at a higher rpm than the V-6.

montanafan

Almost 25% of Bonnevilles are SSEis and they list out at almost $37,000 with Sunroof & Chromed Wheels. You think Pontiac would have a hard time getting $3,000 more for a V8 that is better looking? With Oldsmobile going away, my guess is Pontiac sells more GXPs then SSEis.

boonie80mph

Am I the only Bonneville buyer who is experiencing trouble when opening the trunk in/or after a rain? We have a 2002 Bonneville and last month had our first rain storm. I use my trunk a lot;I opened it and it was Niagra Falls from the lid to the interior! The dealership says it's a design defect and nothing can be done. Does anyone else have this problem??

montanafan

The last two generations of Bonnevilles (96-99, and 2000+) have light panels on the trunk lid. Water has been known to get trapped behind the panels and then drip down in to the trunk when the lid is full up. After you open the lid, just hold is 1/4 open and the water will come out from behind the panel.

theiceman

Good point Montanafan - I was simply doing a 50% exchange conversion and calculating the GXP price from $US 40k to be $CAN 60k. I momentarily forgot that prices don't work that way. For example, an '03 SSEi lists for about $US 35k now vs. $CAN 44k. At that rate, a $US 40k car could be about $CAN 50k - which is a lot more tolerable than the $CAN 60k I leapt to concluding.

My bad.

Still is a lot of $$$

twobrowns

I too had the same problem. I fixed it myself. The bolt holes for the spoiler were not sealed. I backed the bolts off and applied silicon and retightened the bolts. End of problem.I never heard of it being a design issue!

montanafan

Yes, its hard sharing the boards with neighbors to the north. Got to always reread posts. Don't think I will ever get use to seeing prices in Canadian dollars. Atleast there aren't many gas mileage posts to recalculate.

smfran

the only thing I miss about the Bonneville is the driving style. Driving the Envoy is a different experience. I truly enjoy it but can't "make a move" in traffic like I used to. It's turning out to be a great vehicle for me; kind of like a Bonnie SUV. One other thing I miss.... 22 MPG

theiceman

Are you finding the engine smoother, quieter?

smfran

It may be unfair to compare a brand new engine to one with 80,000 miles, but I must say the Envoy is very smooth. The main thing I notice is the transmission shifts much less abruptly.

ice,isn't it you that has never reset the average MPG/KPL meter?

Where's tpken?

mlm4

Being a software engineer I would be very interested to see the actual algorithm that the DIC uses to calculate average mileage. I think I read in the service manual that it has a limited history (some number of miles) that are used in the calculation. My guess is that it takes the current value and averages it with the instantaneous MPG over the past 20 miles of driving. In any event, I find that when I reset mine it eventually settles down to the same number. As the engine has broken in, the economy has improved by about 2 MPG.

tpken

Stephen - Congrats to you on the Envoy XL. I'll be very interested in your experience there since as a sort of 'mini Suburban', it has a lot of attraction for me.

My '00 Bonneville passed the 70K mile marker this morning. Still runs smoothly although there are a few rattles here and there now and I occasionally think there may be an intermediate steering shaft issue. But it is an intermittent problem so I haven't been able to have the dealer observe it yet.

mlm4

My '00 SSEi only has about 10,700 miles on it, although I've been driving it more often recently -- the weather has been good for that. It's a toss-up when it comes to gas prices; my Tahoe gets 16.5 MPG and the Bonnie about 20.2 (according to the DIC) on my urban cycle. 87 octane is running about $1.69 and high-test (for the supercharged motor) about $1.84. When I fill up the Tahoe, it's now over $40 for a tank, but with a 30-gallon tank I fill it less often than I would if I drove the Bonnie just as much. I haven't worked out the numbers, but I don't think driving the car will save me all that much (my commute is only about 10 miles each way). I still take the Tahoe on long trips because it is more comfortable for my 6'2" frame, it is more rugged and durable, and it has my XM Satellite Radio receiver. I still have the vibration problem with the Bonnie that drives me nuts on the highway, and I think I've narrowed the problem down to the tires. But with less than 11K on them, it's hard to swallow the cost of new ones. I think I'll do it anyway...someday!

bunky36

The article on the Bonneville GXP in GMHTP magazine mentioned by mlm4 is on their website:
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/0305GM_Sudden/ Pretty nice article. There's also a small photo there of the interior of the SEMA car that shows the white-faced gauges in the IP. If you go to the GM Powertrain site and look at HP and torque curves for the L37, L47 (Aurora), and L67, and then try to imagine where the curves on this new destroked L37 would fall (obviously somewhere in between the L37 and L47), the L67 isn't going to be just blown completely away. This new engine is going to be hauling a much heavier 3900 pound car around, and pushing it through a tranny that has more driveline loss than the SSEI's, while it will surely outperform the SSEi, probably not by much until you get to the upper end of the power band.

smfran

I would assume the computer just takes the instant MPG as it occurs and averages it over time until it is reset and then starts over again. The limited history is for the Fuel Range. It is an average of recent MPG, I believe the last 25 miles, to give an approximation of miles remaining before fuel runs out.

Ken - I'm loving the Envoy XL. I kept the 2000 Bonneville until it turned 80,000. It was still in great shape but I got the early lease termination deal from GM and couldn't resist. What are your plans?

theiceman

Yeah, Stephen, that was me - I actually did reset it about 6 months after I bought the car but the average mpg has settled back to where it was 2 years ago when I last (and first) reset it.

The DIC reads 23.1 mpg but it reads fuel consumed at 5% than real consumption and doesn't vary much season to season any more - as one would expect the longer you go without resetting it.

smfran

Dan - Does that translate to 24.25 MPG for you?

tpken

Stephen What color combo is the Envoy? Cloth or leather??? What are your impressions of interior quality and driver's seating comfort vs the Bonnevilles you've had?

I have no plans to do anything with my Bonneville other than keep driving it. I'm always kinda looking around though - when you buy preowned like I do you just never know when something just grabs your attention and says 'Take me home'!

smfran

The Envoy XL with SLT trim line is Onyx Black with leather Medium Pewter interior. It is very comfortable so far although I have not yet taken one of my extended sales trips. The fit and finish are typical GM. The leather is not the best quality but certainly acceptable. The parts seem good quality and put together well. I'm bringing it in tomorrow for a rattling rear window, excessive wind noise from the driver's window, and a realignment of the hood. These minor things don't bother me because they are all repairable and my dealer accommodates me very nicely. I am however going to buy an extended warrantee; probably a 100,00 mile/48 month from GE @ $1800.00. It is substantially less than the GM warrantee and can be financed for 18 months at 0% with 10% down. I don't think I used the warrantee to it's full extent with the Bonneville but I did enjoy the peace of mind and no major outlays of cash, like when my heated seat needed replacement.

theiceman

I wish Stephen - it goes the other way. I just chop 1 mpg off what the DIC reads and use that as a barometer.

Actually, it's more confusing than that - we measure fuel economy up here in "Litres per 100 kilometres" so I'm running around the 10.2 L/100km mark. For those of us old enough to remember when gas was sold here in Canada by the gallon, we have to remember that the DIC shows mileage in US gallons - our old and familiar Imperial gallon was significantly larger and I think the US to Imperial mpg conversion factor is somewhere around +20-25%.
ice

evandro

FWIW, I got a 100000mls/5yr extension from GM for just $500 and rolled into the car financing... It started at $1500. Just keep in mind that it's subject to haggling as everything else when one buys a car. ;-)

smfran

Thanks evandro but I already bought the 100,000 mile/48mo. deal from GE. with a $100.00 deductible.

$180.00 down and $90.00/mo. for 18 months.
I guess I got screwed as it is over triple what you got and it is not an extension; 48 months total.

FWIW the dealer quoted me $2200.00 for the GM plan.

evandro

I'm sorry you didn't know about how low it can get sooner.

BTW, I did say it was a warranty extension, but it actually starts from day 1...

ezrapon

As I filled up today, with premium @ 20 cents over regular, it jogged my memory about something I read about the next generation of S/C 3.8 engines. They produce more HP and only require regular gas. I wonder if thet actually made an engine modification to accomodate regular octane or just changed the wording in the manual. Cadilac dropped their premium requirement about 2 years ago as well. I'm fairly certain thses engines would actually run better on premium, but did they actually change compression or the computer program to componsate.

smfran

I always ran my 2000 SSEi on 87 octane and got 80,000 trouble free miles averaging 22MPG. I don't think premium is worth the expense in these cars.

mfahey1

There was a discussion in the Chicago paper today about the GTP. The new L67 is rated at 260hp on premium and 240hp on regular. Our engines can take regular and there is probably a similar drop in hp. due to the knock sensor.

1badsidekick

When we first got the SSEi in '96, we ran the premium fuel in it for quite some time. Then, we started downgrading to mid, and then to regular 87. One thing I have noticed is that the engine misses more on '87, and runs smoother on premium. Has anyone else out there noticed the supercharger only working when it wants to? We finally figured out a while back that you have to put oil in it, it wasn't in the manual that it is required. The thing was bone dry, and we're afraid it may have messed it up.