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BMW enthusiasts should be glad that Germans of both major parties love to drive. Even their Socialists don't dare completely destroy their beloved autobahn driving experience. (Though the German Greens might.) Would be interesting to see what Chancellor Schroeder drives. BMW? MB? Audi?
Here it is:
http://members.home.net/der-profi/bmw/
To change the subject, does anyone here have actual experience with the Chrsyler LS? It's one of the few American cars I see that at least LOOKS like it might be worth owning.
And speaking of write-ups, hgeyer I'm waiting for yours to get stuck out on a page somewhere, hopefully with pictures! :-)
We all probably read the same magazine articles and/or web pages back in the fall indicating that this option would be coming to the US 325 and 330 at the end of '01 or beginning of '02. Yet it appears that it hasn't even made it to the UK yet, so I have no idea when it will cross the pond.
Seems like an interesting option, but honestly I'm enjoying the 5-speed so much that I can't imagine paying extra to let a computer do my clutch work for me, even if it would mean a faster 0-60 time. Of course, I wouldn't mind going crazy with one on a test drive!
This from a yahoo.com article:
"According to Mikko Puhakka, a venture capitalist, roughly 35 of Finland's 50 richest people made their money from Nokia jobs or stock holdings.
The challenge to the country's traditional values from the disparity between the new wave of millionaires and ordinary Finns came to light most famously last month when a top Nokia executive, Anssa Vanjoki, was fined a staggering $100,000 for a relatively minor speeding offense on his Harley-Davidson motorcycle.
Mr. Vanjoki was traveling at 46 miles an hour in a 30-mile-an-hour zone. The fine, as is customary in Finland, was calculated as a proportion of his most recent audited earnings inflated in this case by the sale of Nokia stock that earned him in excess of $2 million."
Here is the link -
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nyt/20020206/tc_nyt/not_in_finland_anymore__more_like_nokialand
derprofi - Your ED experience was very informative. I probably won't do much touring in Germany unless I go to Autostadt in Wolfburg. Most of my first three days will be spent in Luxembourg and Belgium with a fast run to Nancy (FR). After that I will get on the ferry from Zeebrugge to Dover. Then I will attempt to drive a left hand car on the wrong side for 10 days. I might have to take the mirrors off my car.
Last time I drove in England, I drove a Ford Mondeo Ghia X. Compared to my '96 Altima, it felt great. I had drove a VW Passat the last time I was in Germany. It was comfortable but the 4 banger just could not do much. I was getting passed by small Peugeots as soon as I left the airport in Brussels.
I will try to do a write up but web experience leaves something to be desired. I have 28 days till pick up. I guess when it comes down to seven days from pickup, I will probably lose sleep or my wife will divorce and get the BMW and leave me with the Nissan Altima and the Ford Ranger.
I did find that you need to keep your speed down in snow because of the confidence this kind of performance inspires. Usually I feel when the road is slippery by a lightening of steering force. One time, I started to brake and found the ABS unexpectantly kick-in on the right, front wheel. Another learning experience since my first reaction was to manually pump the brakes but I quickly just pushed them down and let the other three wheels do their job.
You will definitely enjoy your AWD (wagon) in both dry pavement and snow. The wagon's performance in third and forth gear above 3000rpm is incredible (because the rear-end ratio is higher than the sedan); you'll be at 85 before your can look down at the speedometer - and that is with the cargo area full of camping gear (or whatever).
Alan
My experience in driving my 325xiT AWD in snow does not support some your statements in post 13030.
I agree that the Audi does support tail out driving in turns because of it transfers torque front to rear but do not agree that the only thing your can do with the BMW is to slow down. In fact, if I begin to slide in a turn, I find that slight acceleration will stop the slide and get me around the corner. When I did get its tail to slide in a turn, DSC curtailed this action but that can be turned off since it affected only the throttle and not any brakes (in snow).
I don't mind the weight penalty of AWD. I'm not looking to race anyone but certainly use the BMW's power to position myself when entering freeways, get me out of hazardous situations or get around left-lane hogs. And it sure feels like RWD.
I also challenge you that RWD outperforms AWD on dry pavement. Under accelerating in a turn, I can feel the front being pulled around a corner rather than being pushed deeper into it. This kind of feel extends to my daughter's 330xi.
I suspect that differences in our driving styles have created different impressions. I don't try to slide before a turn but rather induce a slide after the turn's start. With the 'right' driving style, BMW AWD will oversteer but not without proding.
Alan
Regarding dry performance, AWD 3's come with 10% more weight, increased drive friction, higher center of gravity and no performance tires with SP. I seriously doubt driving the front wheels could overcome all of these handicaps to performance.
-Murray
Thank you for your comment on ED Invoice price.
Let's say I want to add Premium Package, do I add the invoice price or the sticker price of that option?
As for the Chrysler 300M -- well, I don't like the styling, and would never consider one for that reason alone, but it seems to have a huge following based on the number of posts on it here in Town Hall.
1) Get the drive-out price of the car -- the "out-the-door price"
2) Subtract from that ONLY government fees and taxes (Doc fee is NOT a government fee!)
3) What remains, however it is listed by the dealer on his forms, is the money going to the dealer
4) Subtract from the dealer's money the invoice price of the car -- now this is the tricky part because the invoice price may include an advertising fee or it may not, and sometimes dealers add their own advertising fee. If the advertising fee shows on the window sticker, it is a manufacturer's advertising fee and should be included in the invoice (that is, added to the invoice price that you've calculated from the figures you've gotten off of Eurobuyers)
The difference of 3 minus 4 is the amount over invoice you are paying.
And, of course, even if you drive a hard bargain and get a great deal over invoice, the dealer can still take advantage of you on your trade-in, leasing fees, or the interest rate, whether buying or leasing, insurance, extended warranty, and the price you pay for an alarm or homelink, etc.
I believe there is too much of a tendency to evaluate a car's performance based only on metrics: weight, HP, CG and other parameters. I've been fooled enough over the years that I would not make a summary statement without driving the cars.
For example to preserve acceleration, a manufacturer can change the rear end ratio on a heavier car to give it more torque at the rear wheels than a lighter car. During acceleration in a turn, the amount of friction (and thus drag) by the front tires that goes into converting the extra forward drive of the rear wheels into turning motion may be equal to the extra friction of the AWD-train where the front tires now pull the car around the corner. A higher CG may be compensated for in the suspension geometry to keep the same amount of tire patch on the road as a car with lower CG.
And I never said anything about snow tires.
Alan
I have a different view of advertising fees, I think it is absurd to assume you should pay for their costs of doing business as some sort of supplement. Of course, you are paying for them, but following that logic, the next thing you know they'll be asking you for an electricity supplement to pay for their lights. True, it is an actual cost to them, but so is their building, their payroll, etc. Advertising fees IMO are just another way to ring a couple hundred bucks out of the deal without you thinking you're being screwed.
My advice on bargaining is to shop around several dealers with an invoice+$x deal (in my case $1500). I did a statewide search via emails and came up with only a few that would do business with my offer. I then talked to my local dealer knowing what he could do if he wanted. As far as people on this board know, an ED deal doesn't come out of the dealers allocation so there is not the added factor of the dealer trying to make a certain overall profit. I decided beforehand how much it would be worth to me to save a few hundred dollars. And keep in mind, the difference can be upwards of $1k. It's usually the case that car dealers will give you a better deal if you come in prepared and are willing to leave if they don't meet your price. They know that odds are you will find a better deal somewhere else (even if it's only a couple hundred dollars) and will buy the better deal. Hence, the incessant, "...if you do the deal today..." barrage. I'm not sure if BMW dealers feel the same way about this because of the allocation issue, but I think the odds turn in your favor when you bargain over the internet because you can really spread out your search and never have to respond to dealer bs. I found $2k difference for the same car across Ohio, so it pays to shop around.
"...I also challenge you that RWD outperforms AWD on dry pavement..." The extra 200-250 lbs make the car slower (although 0-60 may actually be quicker for the xi if you abuse the clutch), increase braking distance, and carry more curb weight into the corner. The higher ground clearance and lack of SP don't help either... I remember reading that when they started running the S4 in the Speedvision series, they could get it to exit corners about 5 mph faster than RWD cars but they could never get its weight down significantly so it could win races.
I noticed in your profile that you live in Mass as well - maybe we can get together for a back-to-back comparo ;o)
With DSC on, it takes a noticeable, although not huge, swing of the tail before it cuts the accelerator (at least with AWD). I have been able accelerate in turns and feel a transition to slight (not tail-out) oversteer without DSC intervention.
With DSC off, I don't know yet if any automatic braking will come into play provided you don't intentionally try to spin wheels in a turn. I do agree with you that the BMW will not voluntarily spin its wheels in a turn but it will accelerate with really fine traction.
Using the accelerator to regain traction in a (non-wheel-spinning) slide is also directed to the type of slide you might get when going downhill and then attempt to turn (understeer or push). I have consistently stopped an understeer slide by applying power and DSC never came on under those circumstances. It is a real confidence booster.
Alan
And as for the advertising fee, in particular, it doesn't matter either, except when you post here after the deal, and want to tell us the deal you got in relation to invoice. The manufacturer's advertising fee IS part of the invoice.
For example, suppose your out-the-door price on a car is $32,000 and $2,500 (made up number) is government taxes and fees. That means you paid the dealer $29,500 for the car. Now, suppose the base invoice is $28,100 and there's an additional $400 advertising fee. The true invoice is, therefore, $28,500 and you paid $1,000 over invoice. If you don't want to count the advertising fee as part of the invoice, then you paid $1,400 over invoice. But whether you count it as part of the invoice or not, your drive-out-price of $32,000 remains the same.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
In this case, we are talking about a difference of couple of hundred dollars only. As a goodwill, I would offer the dealer to split the difference with me. If they do not want to do that, I would notify BMWNA that I have a purchase order and the dealer is changing the price that we negotiated. If that doesn't help, I am walking out of the deal even if it a matter of $100 only. Good luck!
thanx.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Any product recommendations? and how to apply? I hear Lexol can leave a shiny greasy layer. Do these products rob the leather of that great leather smell?
Thanks All
I use meguiar's gold class leather care. It's one step, so it' behind lexol in that area, but it's very easy and i felt it did the best job of the things i tried, and it's pretty cheap at target, and i like how it smells.
dave
BTW: As a policy (written on their website) my dealer (the BMW Store, Cincinnati, OH) includes floor mats on EVERY deal, not just the ED deals (for which they come with the car).
I've done deals this way in other dealerships as well and have found salesmen to say, okay we'll go $Y over invoice but you forgot to add the advertising fee. To which I would reply, "Do you want me to cover the costs of your lights too? I am willing to pay $Y over invoice, which I calculate to be $Z." There is no point in getting into the discussion on what makes up dealer cost, some places even put the cost of a tank of gas on their invoice! Tell them to call it what they want, but this is the price you're willing to pay. You can always walk if you are at the dealership and you don't like the deal. But I'm convinced that the internet makes the dealing process so much easier now, you can do your deal over a long distance, sign FedEx'd papers and show up only to pick up your car.
I would recommend a book called "Getting to Yes" when it comes to negotiation. It is filled with anecdotes about car dealership practices and the psychological ploys they will try on you. I went to one Ford dealership in North Carolina and had them throw everything at us. It was amusing to be able to anticipate their next move. Ever have the salesman ask you your name and then get it slightly wrong a few minutes later? Or force you to sit across from him with the window to his back? Try pulling your chair next to him and see what he does. I had one salesman move my wife and I three times to different offices and then put a wastepaper basket between us, before I told him that I was going to sit next to him no matter what he does so let's stop playing this game. The most common ploy is asking you to agree to a price and then have to go to the sales manager to get approval. If he says that, tell him that you want to talk to someone with real power to make a decision on a deal and not to waste your time, or tell him to bring his boss back if he says no. There are thick binder type training manuals for each situation a salesman might encounter. Your best bet is to find their best salesman and make it clear that you won't play games. If he's as good as advertised he will recognize quickly that the best way to make a sale with you is to get to the point, get the deal done and find the next sucker coming into his dealership.
Sorry for the rant. I paid too much for my first new car and swore it would never happen again!
BTW, what do you all think the fair invoice price for a trunk mounted 6CD changer (part+labor) is?
Get real.
Obviously, there are some bad dealerships where you will have a problem, but its a bell curve, like anything else.
Think of it this way: dealerships are small businesses. No kidding. Usually, under 50 employees. You aren't buying a car from the manufacturer, you're buying it from a franchise owner. Often, that even means a family business. Would you go into Mom and Pop's hardware store and bully them on the price of a power drill?
Dealership owners are entreprenuers. They have a right to make a profit, and they have to cover costs somehow. If you want to complain about having to pay the "advertising cost," go ahead, but try to accept the fact that a car dealership is the only place in America where a customer gets to go inside and demand to pay the invoice price of the product. If they sold every car for $100 over invoice, they would go out of business.
tenet1 - "fair invoice price"? Get over yourself. If it makes you happy, shop around. Call several dealers in different places. Buy the parts where they are the least expensive and take them to the dealership with the lowest labor to get it installed. Don't bother trying to negotiate aftersales installs.
You're right. Debating the driving characteristics without getting in both cars doesn't mean much. That said, BMW simply doesn't equip their AWD 3's as sports machines like they do with the 330 with SP (tires, CG, etc).
A higher CG may be compensated for in the suspension geometry to keep the same amount of tire patch on the road as a car with lower CG.
I don't see how a suspension can overcome a higher CG. A suspension may keep all the tires on the ground, but a higher CG will always result in more weight on the outside tires during cornering than a lower CG.
My comments on winter tires were intended for the general discussion, not you in particular. It's my contention that most people would be better served/safer with winter tires instead of AWD. No one is out marketing "the safety of" winter tires like Subaru markets AWD. Of course, AWD with winter tires would be the ultimate, but mostly overkill here in Wisconsin.
-Murray
In fact, invoice is defined as the price the dealer paid for the vehicle. You have a good point about holdbacks, but they don't exist on most vehicles.
I don't know anything about destination charges in South Carolina. The BMW dealership I used to work at is in New York. I was a service advisor.
Dealerships have not squelched internet car sales. In fact, they love them. Imagine a salesperson who gets to answer a phone call or an e-mail with a price and makes a sale. The customer has taken the time-consuming sales process and sold themselves the car, leaving human salespeople free to take other customers. This is a good thing.
I don't know what your point was about dealerships' clout in legislature. Can you rephrase it?
The dealership I worked at saw maybe one or two new people in sales each year, and lost no more than that.
You're right about car dealers not being poor. If they aren't raking it in, they're going out of business. But there is a reason for that. Automobile sales requires a huge investment. Not only on the vehicles, but the equipment. A dynamometer costs $50,000. No dealer will ever recoup the cost of that charging $35 for a state emissions inspection. Not to mention insurance, mortgage, electricity, etc. It isn't an easy business to be in.
And then, of course, there is the fact that 9 out of 10 people through the door assume they're going to be screwed, so they're unfriendly to start with. Lots of people are under the assumption that the car business is about machines -- it isn't. Its about people.
I know that I am paying for the advertising the lights and everything else, but when it comes to negotiation I won't let them use them as ploys to wring out a few extra bucks from me. Call me cheap, but hey, it's my money not theirs. Who can't use an extra $1k? You'll notice that most everyone here talks about $1000-1500 deals over invoice. No one's trying to eat the dealer's lunch, but no one wants their's eaten either.
BTW: You can bargain almost anywhere if you are persistent. I had a Russian immigrant neighbor would go to Wal-Mart and bargain with the manager for a discount over big ticket items. She was successful most of the time too! It's what people do all over the world, we American's just get a little too complacent and accept things the way they are. Besides it's fun to test your negotiating skills.
In fact, invoice is defined as the price the dealer paid for the vehicle. You have a good point about holdbacks, but they don't exist on most vehicles.
I don't know anything about destination charges in South Carolina. The BMW dealership I used to work at is in New York. I was a service advisor.
Dealerships have not squelched internet car sales. In fact, they love them. Imagine a salesperson who gets to answer a phone call or an e-mail with a price and makes a sale. The customer has taken the time-consuming sales process and sold themselves the car, leaving human salespeople free to take other customers. This is a good thing.
I don't know what your point was about dealerships' clout in legislature. Can you rephrase it?
The dealership I worked at saw maybe one or two new people in sales each year, and lost no more than that.
You're right about car dealers not being poor. If they aren't raking it in, they're going out of business. But there is a reason for that. Automobile sales requires a huge investment. Not only on the vehicles, but the equipment. A dynamometer costs $50,000. No dealer will ever recoup the cost of that charging $35 for a state emissions inspection. Not to mention insurance, mortgage, electricity, etc. It isn't an easy business to be in.
And then, of course, there is the fact that 9 out of 10 people through the door assume they're going to be screwed, so they're unfriendly to start with. Lots of people are under the assumption that the car business is about machines -- it isn't. Its about people.
I can attest anecdotealy to the fact that dealerships are making money. I sent my oldest to the "best" school in town for preschool. The parents night was rather surprising, pro-football and baseball players, corporate executives and owners of all the major car dealerships. I could pay for the school but couldn't keep up with that crowd so I moved my kid before peer pressure became an issue. The point being there's real money in that business and no one to feel sorry for.
Thank you for the advise. I find it very smart and informative. Appreciate it a lot.
In fact, invoice is defined as the price the dealer paid for the vehicle. You have a good point about holdbacks, but they don't exist on most vehicles.
I don't know anything about destination charges in South Carolina. The BMW dealership I used to work at is in New York. I was a service advisor.
Dealerships have not squelched internet car sales. In fact, they love them. Imagine a salesperson who gets to answer a phone call or an e-mail with a price and makes a sale. The customer has taken the time-consuming sales process and sold themselves the car, leaving human salespeople free to take other customers. This is a good thing.
I don't know what your point was about dealerships' clout in legislature. Can you rephrase it?
The dealership I worked at saw maybe one or two new people in sales each year, and lost no more than that.
You're right about car dealers not being poor. If they aren't raking it in, they're going out of business. But there is a reason for that. Automobile sales requires a huge investment. Not only on the vehicles, but the equipment. A dynamometer costs $50,000. No dealer will ever recoup the cost of that charging $35 for a state emissions inspection. Not to mention insurance, mortgage, electricity, etc. It isn't an easy business to be in.
And then, of course, there is the fact that 9 out of 10 people through the door assume they're going to be screwed, so they're unfriendly to start with. Lots of people are under the assumption that the car business is about machines -- it isn't. Its about people.
I know for a fact that dealers don't pay the invoice price. My Aunt just got a 2001 Lexus RX300 last Nov. and she paid $1,000 less than invoice price. It was too good of a deal I almost went for it myself!
I also work for a company that sell items to major retailers around the country. We usually have a price list. Depending on how big the customer is in terms of volume, we sell the items at a certain discount to them, say 15% or 25% off.
As an example, we have an item listed on our list @ $7.50. We would sell it to the retailer @ $5.00. By the time the average joe sees it on the shelf the price is $19.99.
I strongly believe that even if the car dealership sells you a car at invoice price, they still make some profit.