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BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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    ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    lol... nope, no gold stars! (i know you aren't trying to contradict, it's my fault for not being able to explain clearly enough)...

    i'm searching for a website with pictures on it to show it... the first person who invents a search engine that actually works should win the nobel prize... :)

    -Chris
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    nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,439
    that's what i was trying to say.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

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    ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    no, making the tire wider will not increase the contact patch bigger, and making it skinnier will not make it smaller...

    f=ma (where force in this case is expressed as weight)

    we don't have to deal with acceleration here, because it's the same for both tires (gravity when standing still, gravity plus some forward vector when moving)... so the determining factor for deflection is mass... ah, but mass is the same as well, the unsprung mass hasn't changed a bit with the different tire on there...

    sooooo....

    the area of deflection HAS to be equal (again, assuming tire pressures being the same)...

    thus...

    the wider tire will have a wider, but not as long contact patch, whereas the skinnier tire will have a narrower, but longer contact patch... but the actual AREA of the contact patch will be the SAME... (of course, you could carry this to a ridiculous end, and end up riding on the rims, which would require a whole bunch of different calculations... :) )

    both narrower and longer are good in the snow, becuase:

    1) narrower will "plow through" better...
    2) longer will allow more "channeled area" (i.e. tread) to suck up and pull snow away....

    the only way to change the area of your contact patch would be to change the inflation pressure of your tires, which would affect the deflection...

    -Chris

    ps. apologies in advance to engineers/physics majors if i screwed up the terms. it's been a long time since high school physics. :)
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    carwatchcarwatch Member Posts: 38
    dave330i: I'll schedule test drives for both. I guess that's the only way to really know how each one performs. I'll continue shopping around and try to offer 1500 over invoice.

    brave1heart: As it stands, you're right. They are not really that very good of a deal but as I was walking out the door, the salesperson made it clear that these figures were not written in stone. That gives me an opening for a bit more room to negotiate but I have a feeling it won't be that much. My gut feel is that I will probably get around $500 more off.

    nyccarguy: the missus and I learned to drive on sticks (I'm aging myself) but about 12 yrs ago when we had our first slush box, the convenience factor just settled in. The kids technically can't drive sticks, although they pretend they can. But I'll take your advice and think it over, test drive it and we might just go for a stick one more time. The Maxima has really spoiled me in terms of speed but I only rev it up when there's some M-r-n who seems to have forgotten the rules of the road. Although speed is important, it's 4 on a scale of 5 for me.

    As for your other questions, the 330Ci is an Executive Car (I don't know how that is vs a CPO). If I use the car daily, it's around 19K a year. I'll keep it until my curiosity for new cars haunts me again (say 3 to 4 years).

    I really appreciate the insights.
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    dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    There's nothing quite like shifting that I6 at 5+k rpm (at least this side of $40k anyway). I've never considered shifting for myself work, and on a fun car like the 3-series, it just pleasure.
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    nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,439
    brave in saying that the asking price for that 330Ci is way too much for a used car. Definitely shop around. There are many dealers in Jersey.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

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    carwatchcarwatch Member Posts: 38
    I hear you...
    I just have to get out of this lard mentality and relive the good old days
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    dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Look at it this way.

    If a car weighs 3000 pounds...

    And its tires are inflated to 25 psi.

    It will take 3000/25 = 120 square inches of contact patch to hold the car up, pretty much regardless of the shape of the tire. So the tires will deform until 120 square inches touch.

    If you inflated the same tires to 100 psi, they'd deform almost none when touching the ground, and only 30 square inches would be contacting.

    If they were almost flat, at 10 psi, you would have 300 square inches touching.

    Wider tires usually are at lower pressure, though. Dragsters usually run at only a few pounds.

    dave
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    twoof1twoof1 Member Posts: 308
    While flying errr... driving on the 57 fwy. north yesterday I noticed a test mule (not uncommon here in so. Cal) convertible driving up ahead with MFGR plates on it. As I pulled up on it it looked strangely familiar. As I passed it by I noticed the infamous Twin kidney's on the grill even though they were blacked out. The car had full black body armour on it so you could not really see all the lines. I dropped back to the guy and rolled down the window to ask the driver what it was. Sure enough it was a '03 Z3 doing some final testing. From what I could tell the new lines looked great definately not as "Bangled up" as the new 7 series.

    I think I'm almost ready to pull the trigger with and ECIS intake and AA exhaust setup. Anyone have any recent experiences with either since the last time we tossed it around?

    Brave,
    You must be tossin' back some of that single malt a little early today!......Rams will dominate... game over by halftime.
    Enjoy the weekend!
    Peace
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    kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    odyssey; 4500 pounds. ~66% (2970 lbs) on front tires inflated to 29psi... 2970/29 = 102 sq inches on front tires.

    330Ci; 3250 pounds. ~50% (1625 lbs) on front tires inflated to 31psi... 1625/31 = 52 sq inches on front tires.

    so, her Odyssey (according to these calculations), with 205's has a contact area nearly 100% larger on the front tires than my 330Ci with 225's?

    I need pictures!!
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    hgeyerhgeyer Member Posts: 188
    I just discovered that BMWCCA members are eligible for a $500 rebate from BMW on the purchase of a CPO vehicle*. This may be old news to some, but it does make the CPO more attractive.

    Not a bad deal and something to keep in mind.

    * - Have to be a member for 1 year, same as the new car rebate.
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    jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    If you are tired of being just another BMW owner seeing the same car you are driving everywhere. Then take heart, here are some examples of the ultimate driving machine for the ultimate owner.


    http://www.jimmy540i.com/bmwnightmare.htm

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    joeg12joeg12 Member Posts: 5
    I've been shopping a 02 330i (5M/PP/Xenons/Heated Seats). Wide World has offered $1700 over invoice. Any thoughts??

    If I go the lease route they tell me that the Feb money factor is 205 and residual is 63% with 10K miles. Again has anyone seen better numbers?
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    kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    Who knew there was such a wide array of beautiful modifications available?
    LMAO! Thanks for the link!
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    visordocvisordoc Member Posts: 48
    dhanley, a minor clarification. The "psi" pressure that is measured from the tire is a measure of the air pressure acting on per sq. inch *inside* the tire walls, not of the tire on the ground. So your equation doesn't work that way.


    kominsky, you may want to check out this link:

    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/contact.htm

    As I understand it, generally sport tires have a wide and short contact patch to provide rapid transitions and directional changes, wheras snow tires need a narrow and long patch to cut through ice/snow and to provide traction in the direction of rotation especially in low traction situations eg. snow/ice. Of course, side wall height (ie. aspect ratio) plays a significant role also in determining the "shape" of the contact patch.

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    parsonguyparsonguy Member Posts: 7
    OK kids. Fess up. Everybody likes to sound off about their great negotiating skills and their great deal. But hey, be honest. Did anyone pay sticker? I live in St. Paul. There are two dealers here and, while I'm gonna go in there with my best face on, my hunch is neither one of them will move off full retail, especially on the bone stock 325i I want. Would you do it? Would you pay retail for this car? HAS ANYONE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD EVER PAID MSRP FOR THIS CAR? And regarding the single malt question. Novices should start with the friendier, sweeter highland malts then move down to the smokey, peaty, leathery island scotches. That's what I did.
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    abcnycabcnyc Member Posts: 101
    Wow !!! I hope everyone understands contact patch now. It was very educational for me. That Tire Rack link was great. But the bottom line is having tires with a narrow/skinny and long contact patch is best for snow. I think I will be getting narrower tires on a new set of rims. My 330i SP with 225/45-17 and 245/40-17, even with winter tires, may not be the best for handling in snow. I assume unless something dramatic happens (e.g. potholes, curbs, etc.) they will not have to be balanced every year.
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    seivwrigseivwrig Member Posts: 388
    I don't understand why anyone in the world would place these moose racks on the back of their car unless your are a rally car driver. Those wings would even look ugly on a Mitsu Lancer Evo. The only question that continued to run thru my mind was why.

    I have a little more than a month before heading to Munich. The wait is killing me. I think I have read all the BMW lit that I can care to read. I just want to drive. At least I know that car has been finish as far as the building goes. Now my car waits for me.
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    mschukarmschukar Member Posts: 351
    The "psi" pressure that is measured from the tire is a measure of the air pressure acting on per sq. inch *inside* the tire walls, not of the tire on the ground. So your equation doesn't work that way.

    I beg to differ. If the pressure on the inside of the tire isn't supporting the weight of the car, what is?

    Lets look at a small sized piece of tire that is in contact with the ground, say 1 square inch, in the center of the tire. In a previous example, the total area of contact was 120 square inches which supports 3000 lbs. Our little square inch has to support 1/120 of the weight of the car, or 25 lbs. Without an opposing force, that square inch would move away from the force, but it doesn't. What creates the opposing force? Auto tires do have reinforcement that translates some of the force to the sidewalls, but beyond that, it's all air pressure inside the tire.

    Next time your at the tire store, try pushing on 1 square inch of unmounted tire with 25 lbs of force. I'll bet you get quite a bit of deflection.

    -Murray
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    mschukarmschukar Member Posts: 351
    Which is more efficient (takes less energy to drive), a narrow or wide tire at the same air pressure and outside diameter?

    A bicycle tire manufacturer did a study that found that wider tires are actually more efficient. The narrow tire has to deflect more of it's circumference to make the longer contact patch. That deflection generates friction and heat loss with each rotation which takes more energy to drive.

    Let the flames begin!

    -Murray
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    bmw323isbmw323is Member Posts: 410
    I paid about $1,300 under sticker but I don't live in the midwest anymore. I would hate to pay sticker, but certainly people do. Would it be worth $1,000 or more to expand your search to Wisconsin? If not, you'll pay sticker and forget about it in a few months after the purchase. There are buyers that fly 1,000 miles. It's a matter of what it is worth to you.
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    bmw323isbmw323is Member Posts: 410
    This morning I noticed my left rear tire was flat. By the way, with the Z rated low profile tires, even a totally flat tire doesn't really look flat. Had I driven on it I would have ruined the tire. From now on I'm going to watch the tires very closely. Anyway, tomorrow I'll take the wheel off and get the tire repaired. I don't have a torque wrench. Is it that big of a deal to have to buy a $75 torque wrench, or can I just use the lug wrench and make sure not to over tighten the bolts?

    Second question - if the tire can't be repaired what are my options? I have 11,000 miles on my Conti Sports. They still have good tread. Should I buy one new tire? Would it handle ok? Should I use the new spare tire and just put a cheap (or used) tire in the trunk for a spare? I don't want to buy Conti's for my next tires, but I'm not crazy about buying all new tires now. Thanks.
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    gurumikegurumike Member Posts: 442
    Yes. Many, many, many, many people pay MSRP for E46 3 series cars in all bodystyles all the time. Be it from areas where there are fewer BMW dealers who are going to sell every 3er they can get, or big, metropolitan dealers who might sell two same spec cars, one for "$1500 over" and the next for sticker. And how much mark up is there in a strippy 325i anyway? With the new pricing, I doubt the store makes $2000 before they've paid the salesman etc.
    Perhaps now, more than ever, one of my favorite expressions applies....

    "Why dicker? - Just pay sticker!"

    It's not like anyone in any other area is likely to buy a 3er retail and save more than a few hundred $$s than you.

    If anyone is interested, my pride & joy can currently be seen at

    http://www.autotrader.com

    If you use zip code 93109, you'll find it easily. I think I'm making a big mistake, as at 9700 miles, it's just now beginning to get good. But an '02 M3 might just be do-able. HHhhhhmmmmmm.
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    mschukarmschukar Member Posts: 351
    Take a look in your trunk. I think there is a full sized spare in there and it's likely the same tire. (I'd check my trunk but my 325 is still in Germany :-(

    Let me know what you find.

    -Murray
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    riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Think the question might be re-phrased to have people discuss what 3 Series they bought and whether they paid sticker or not. Guessing there is nothing wrong paying sticker (or more?) for hard to get models like AWD, convertible, or M3. But don't think anyone would, who can negotiate, for the much easier to find "vanilla" 325i and 330i cars.

    I spoke with a doctor friend of mine yesterday. He loves my 540i 6-speed and my wife's 323iA. He wants a 325Xi but says there are none on lots and he'd have to order. Plus they won't budge much off sticker. (I told him, if he really wants AWD, just buy it! He can afford it.)
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    orkwisorkwis Member Posts: 82
    IMHO, knowledge is power. Spend a day or three sending out a few email messages asking deals within the next 5-600 miles if they will take an $X over invoice deal. Show them the numbers (go to eurobuyers.com) and see what each will do. Then go to your dealer knowing what price others are willing to sell you the SAME car. You can then decide how much it is worth to you, i.e., $/mi. You also want to know if your local dealer is going to give you something the others wont, a loaner car or the like. I was fortunate to have learned my local dealer will give the loaner with service for anyone so it wasn't an issue. For me it's principle and what's the worst that happens, you pay MSRP? I'd admit, calling all those dealers would be annoying and involve a little expense. I also didn't have luck with any dealers cold calling them (coincidence?) when talking about ED invoice. But hey, you could always donate the difference to a good cause! Good luck.
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    twoof1twoof1 Member Posts: 308
    What are you thinkin'?
    You above most posters here should know you are going to take a huge hit.
    BTW, didn't you install the ECIS intake? I did not see it listed in your ad. Are you selling seperately?
    Do you know if it will fit the E46 325 sedan?
    Maybe we can make a deal!
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    mitchs3mitchs3 Member Posts: 68
    Has anyone noticed that it takes the brake pedal to go fairly far down to activate the brake lights and to de-activate cruise control. I noticed this on my 2002 330i when de-activating the cruise control it takes more than a light tap to cut the cruise off. Also brake light doen't come on till pedal is about 25% down. Took to my dealer, he put a new switch in but it seems the same...
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    brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    Great tire discussion - learning something new every day!!!

    parsonguy - In addition to the models that riez mentioned, it is also more common for buyers to pay MSRP for new models that just came out, i.e. you are more likely to pay MSRP in September and a lot less likely to have to do it now. I think you are a prime candidate for ED. You will save 2 grand, plus you'll get another $1,000 off MSRP if you buy it from Passport BMW in MD. You will have to pay $500 to have your car trucked from there to your local dealership but it is well worth doing it for total savings of $2,500.

    bmw323is - you should get a torque wrench!! When my tire's sidewall was damaged a few months back, I put on the full size spare Conti and I am still driving with it. I could tell very minor vibrations when cornering aggressively from mixing a new tire with older tires but it all disappeared after a couple of hundred miles. I am also planning on getting a different set of performance tires when I burn through the Contis but at 11K miles, you still have at least 10K miles left on yours. Don't forget to get another spare tire, though - I'd get a donut to save money and weight in the car or a cheap used tire if you prefer to have a full-size spare.

    mitchs3 - I think I've only used my cruise control once - just to make sure that it works. Someone I know just got into an accident the other day - she had the cruise control on as she hit a snow bank on the highway and by the time she figured out how to switch it off (I know, we all make mistakes), she had spun 180 degrees and hit the guard rail...

    twoof1 - I wasn't drinking when I wrote that about the Pats and the Rams but when I got home last night, I did finish the remainder of the Glenlivet bottle that I had open. Time to renew my supplies. I can't believe the bookies are giving a 14 1/2 point advantage to the Rams - this will be easy money for Patriots' fans :o)
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    bmw323isbmw323is Member Posts: 410
    Murray - yes there is a full size spare tire on an allowy wheel, just like the other 4. Problem is - one new tire and the other 3 tires with 11,000 miles? It doesn't make a difference for me now since my old tire was fixable. I did decide to buy a torque wrench especially since I will someday buy snows and a separate set of wheels. I found an inexpensive Craftsman torque wrench at Sears for $25 and it seemed to work just fine. I want to plug Discount Tire. They fixed my flat, washed the whole wheel and carried it back and forth to my truck. And they do it all for free, even though I didn't buy the tires from them.

    Also got a recall notice in the mail today from BMW for emissions. It inlcudes the thermostat replacement, but it also sounds like some other stuff is included. I thought the thermostat problem was on 2001 cars? This recall if for 1999 and 2000 cars. Oh well, I'll make the appointment for two or three weeks and see what kind of loaner I can get. I'd love a 330. Eventually I'll trade up to one. Last time I got a 323 wagon automatic, and it was pretty beat up.
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    325i87325i87 Member Posts: 15
    Orkwis, thanks for the reference on unit conversion. The handbook I referred to is 20 years old. The 550 lb-ft/s at Grenwich (745.7 W) was the most common definition at the time for automotive use.

    In my handbook, the metric HP was a unit of energy rather than power (=2512 BTU = 735.5 watt-hour), so a metric HP per hour would be 735.5 W as in your reference). The boiler (aka thermal) HP is so much greater (there are two definitions 9810 or 9803 W) than the standard 745.7W value that it is out of the question. In boiler HP units, the 325i would have 14 HP only. Using these units would not be a good marketing move.

    BTW, both the variation of gravitational acceleration and the earth eccentricity are due to the earth's rotation (centrifugal force). At the sea level, the earth's attraction is 0.5% more at the poles than at the equator. The earth radius at the sea level is about 1 in 300 less at the poles than at the equator.
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    orkwisorkwis Member Posts: 82
    Interesting, 0.5% would explain a difference in the thrid digit. However, as you pointed out before, none of the definitions would explain the hp difference noted between US and Europe. I would still bet on emission system differences rather than derating through electronic engine control, but maybe there's some other good explanation?

    The term horsepower has always confused me. It's clearly not got anything to do with the power output of a horse!
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    325i87325i87 Member Posts: 15
    I could not find any reference for it, but I seem to remember that it was originally meant to be the sustained power of an average horse measured by the time taken to lift a weight to a given height with a cable and pulley apparatus. I would think the peak power of a horse for just a few seconds is quite a bit more than 1 HP.

    (I should probably change my ID to something like 330i02 if I knew how)
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    visordocvisordoc Member Posts: 48
    http://www.howstuffworks.com/horsepower1.htm
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    orkwisorkwis Member Posts: 82
    I stand corrected, great link!
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    gurumikegurumike Member Posts: 442
    ... my ECIS CAI seperately, but it won't fit a 325i. The 323/328 have the same throttle body, the one on the 325 differs slightly in design, preventing the 323/328 part from working on it. But the 3.0 engine has a larger diameter throttle inlet which required ECIS to design a new pipe for it. They also spec'd a bigger K 'n' N filter than the others'.
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    cnorthrupcnorthrup Member Posts: 74
    I have a '02 330i step which had the same problem as yours...

    Others have complained of the same on bimmer.org...

    The dealer fixed mine by bending a tab that is part of the brake light switch assembly under the dash. I told them that was the fix by showing them a posting from bimmer.org explaining about the tab, so they did not try the replacing the switch, just bent the tab and I was all set.

    My brake lights now come on with a very slight movement of the brake pedal and cruise will shut off a soon as you touch the brake too.

    Chuckn
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    cnorthrupcnorthrup Member Posts: 74
    See my previous post...

    This is the note I gave my dealer when I brought my car in for the brake light, cruise control problem. If I can find the other post from bimmer.org I will post it...

    '02 330i step, steel blue

    The brake lights do come on until the brake pedal is depressed a couple of inches. If you are slowing down gradually the brake lights may not be on.

    If you sit at a light and do not have your foot firmly on the brake pedal the brake lights may not be lit.

    This is BIG SAFETY ISSUE.

    Please adjust my brake pedal switch so the brake lights come on as soon as I touch the brakes or at least after the pedal is moved only a ½ inch or so.
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    mitchs3mitchs3 Member Posts: 68
    Thanks for the info. I have to go back anyway to the dealer for new door to storage box(the one below the climate control). This past time my wife dropped the car off with my list and I did not talk directly with the service advisor. Given that there are real safety concerns here dont you think there should be a TSB on this? It seems crazy to put fast acting LED high brake lights on and then have them set so they dont activate till the pedal is 2-2.5 inches down. My last lease was a 99 Volvo s70 GLT and lights activated with light touch and they stressed the fast acting LED high (third) brake light as much faster than regular bulbs.
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    jmochel1jmochel1 Member Posts: 8
    I'm trying to do the math on new vs used. I can buy a new 2002 325i for $30,500 (auto, moonroof, heated seats, metallic). According to Edmunds, the trade-in value for a 2000 323i with 40k miles is $19,600. Difference after 2 years = $10,900.

    The TMV value of a CPO 2000 323i (15k miles) is $26,600. A 1998 328i (55k miles) has a trade-in value of $19,000 and a 318i (55k miles) has a trade-in value of $15,000. Splitting the difference I get a cost after two years of $9,600.

    If I'm looking at this correctly, the real difference in ownership after two years and 40k miles is only $1,300 (10,900-9,600) plus the difference in sales tax between $30,500 and $26,600.

    Am I looking at this correctly?

    Jim
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    dl7265dl7265 Member Posts: 1,381
    The biggest hit is the first three years,as youve pointed out.The only flaw in your math is that fact that there were major remodels from 98-99 and there might be a larger hit on a 323i , even though the 325i is the same car.

    Id say find a low mile , well kept 1999 (had the best steering )and enjoy the 10k savings.then when your ready to sale, there may be a new 3er out.

    Happy Hunting,
    DL
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I just checked the brake light activation on my 1999 328i, which turns out to be about 1/2 inch until light activation. As for cruise control de-activation, I have never checked, I use either the clutch de-activation (1/2 inch of clutch pedal movement will disengage the system) or the steering wheel controls.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    cnorthrupcnorthrup Member Posts: 74
    From what I have read on the "boards" it seems to be mostly the '02's. If memory serves me it might only be the 330i's that have complained (or noticed).

    Everyone with a MY 2002 should check this out... It could be dangerous.

    I feel a travel of more than a 1/4 to 1/2 before the brake lights activate is excessive.

    CNorthrup
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    wrjohnsonpghpawrjohnsonpghpa Member Posts: 53
    Greetings:

    I enjoy these postings immensely and thought that I would chime in with a few thoughts. I'd be interested in anyone elses reaction/opinions/thoughts regarding these or any other matters. Everyones entitled.

    By way of introduction, a week-and-a-half ago I ordered a 2002 325i. My dealer tells me that it is currently "in production;" (the Owners Circles section of the BMW USA web-site says that it is "scheduled for production"). I expect to take delivery sometime in March. The only options that I ordered were metallic paint (Steel Blue) and Steptronic Automatic transmission. I currently own a 1997 Nissan Maxima SE which has every available option (sun roof, leather, climate control, Bose stereo, ABS, power and heated seats), and which I will be keeping. My thoughts below are based largely on my experience with the Maxima, which still a heck of a car.

    I didn't get leather because the leatherette is virtually indistinguishable from the leather and not only is it cheaper, it's easier to clean and is more durable. Leather dries out and cracks, gets dirtier easier, and requires a great deal more attention. And lets face it, BMW leather isn't exactly glove soft.

    I didn't order heated seats because: (1) they're cold when you first sit on them and by the time they warm up your body heat has warmed them, (2) in cold weather you wear a heavy coat and you can't feel the heat through it any way, (3) "high" is too hot and you end up turning them down or off after about five or ten minutes anyway.

    Regarding a sun roof, they don't let any air in (come on, admit it!) so what's the point in opening it? As to letting light in, sometimes/many times the sun shines right in your eyes forcing you to close the shade. I hear all of you who say that it adds to resale value, but I believe that anyone who has had one, won't see the need for another one (like me). (BTW, the only problem that I've had with my Maxima was that the sun roof came off its track three days before my warranty was up. You know what they say, timing is everything.)

    Regarding the Harmon Kardon sound system, I admit that I haven't heard it, but the standard system sounded fine to me, at least as good as the Bose system in my Maxmia, which has never impressed me. You know what they say, "no highs, no lows, must be Bose."

    The memory seats are a slick option and would have been nice, but power seats are really unnecessary, just something else to break. I just couldn't justify the price for the memory when it will be rare that someone else drives it.

    Finally, although I didn't have a choice, I wouldn't have ordered the climate control. Not only does my Maxima have one, my 2001 Honda Odyssey EX, has one too. These systems are not set and forget. You're constantly adjusting the temperature (why doesn't 72 always feel the same?) and turning the air conditioning and front defroster on and off. They're not worth it, IMHO.

    So my 325i won't have what almost everyone elses has. But for $28,605 (without tax and license) ($1,500 over invoice; $890 under MSRP), it will still be the "Ultimate Driving Machine," and isn't that what it's all about anyway.
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    messydeskmessydesk Member Posts: 4
    I'll be in the position about a year from now to replace a 1985 Toyota with something nice for me (but that my wife can drive, too). A 325 is on the short list, as is the Audi A4. The A4 has a price advantage until you consider that I am usually in the Munich area 2 or 3 times a year on business, in which case picking up a Euro Delivery car would cost me nothing if I time it right.

    For those that have done the ED thing, what is the maximum time you can say, "I'll be right there" before someone starts socking you with "why the hell haven't you taken delivery yet" fees? Also, I've read that some have and some haven't had good luck getting ED cards for $x off of MSRP. Are there metropolitan areas and/or times of the year that are better than others for being able to catch a break? I'm in the Chicago area where there seem to be plenty of BMW dealers.

    One other thing I've noticed is that BMWCCA members can get a $500 rebate on a 3 if they've been members for over a year. If I decide in the very near future that a 3 is for me, would it be a good idea to join now in the hopes of the rebate being there next spring on the 2003 models, or is the rebate not something that you can count on?
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    6444064440 Member Posts: 2
    I've been talking to dealerships about finding this car but they tell me it's going to be difficult. I'm looking for a titanium silver with gray interior, premium package. Any ideas on where I should look?

    Thanks.
    D. Habr
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    div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Congratulations! Don't let some of the pinheads around here get you down if they tell you that you MUST HAVE option ______. All that matters is that YOU are happy. Enjoy your 3er.
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    hgeyerhgeyer Member Posts: 188
    The ED program is fairly well suited for you:

    1) You can keep the car in Europe for up to 6 months. BMW provides insurance for only the first 30 days; you're on your own after that.

    Alternatively, you can drive the car from the pick-up location to the drop-off location and fly home. Timing should be easy as long as you have 30-45 days of advance notice.

    2) I also am in the Chicago area and became frustrated that none of the dealers would do a $1500 over invoice deal on ED, which based on earlier posts, is a better deal for them than an outright sale.

    I did not try Patrick BMW and understand that they may be reasonable. In any event, you should be able to get $1,000-$1,500 over ED invoice (go to www.eurobuyers.com for ED invoice pricing) with a little work.

    3) I cannot speak to the rebate. I think I read that it was renewed for all of this year, but I wasn't a BMWCCA member long enough to qualify.

    Good luck and email me if you have any questions.
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    shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I too do not believe in telling folks what options they NEED, however, I feel inclined to pick a small bone with you over the "Set and forget climate control". In my case, is just that, I set it at 64 and forget it. The only time I have to "Fiddle" with it is when I Engage or Disengage the A/C or if I need to direct more airflow over the windshield than full Auto mode provides.

    Good luck with your new car, I suspect you will love it.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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    whichone1whichone1 Member Posts: 11
    I enjoyed reading your post as I have been trying to make the same decisions myself. If you look back about 100 posts or so you will see where I asked if a moonroof was worth the $$$. Of all the people I have asked that question, I have gotten a 50/50 response for and against the moonroof. I guess it just depends on what is important to you. I finally settled the moonroof question by asking myself why I wanted it. The answer was simply because I thought people would wonder why a car of this level would be without one. It had nothing to do my enjoyment of the "Ultimate Driving Machine", it was about image. Needless to say I am not getting the moonroof.

    I think what makes a BMW a BMW is not so much about the options but more about the driving experience and heritage.

    Just IMHO of course.
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