BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

tennberg

newtoboston,

I really have no desire to visit Europe at the moment so I think ED is out of the question. Also, I have never driven manual before nor do I plan on buying a $30,000+ car just to learn how to use it. Hopefully, the hell that is Boston driving will be fine once the Big Dig is over (*crosses fingers*).
For the next few months, it will be mostly readnig reviews, pricing out each model, deciding on options, etc...then narrowing it down to 2 or 3 specific models and test-driving those and going from there.
I will keep you informed.

dave330i

What does the price of car have to do with learning to drive a manual? My friend used that excuse in getting an automatic SLK 320.

Of all the things a person can learn to do in a life time, learning how to drive a manual is one of the easier things to learn. Why do people make if sound like performing open heart surgery, when reality all you're doing is coordinating both legs, and an arm? People know how to walk, and walking requires coordinating all your body. How hard can driving a manual be if all it requires is coordinating 3 limbs?

end rant

brave1heart

My take on it is that it's not about being hard to learn or traffic jams or uncoordinated wives or you-name-it excuse. People predominantly shop for cars the same way they shop for appliances (think fridge) - it has to be functional, look good, reliable, and easy to use. Everything else is secondary. If the fridge feels a little sportier, that's a bonus. Cars are increasingly being designed to isolate the driver from the driving experience - just look at the new 100-grand MB's out there - electronic everything (incl. brakes?!?) and a SECOND BATTERY just to keep all the appliance's gadgets going at the same time. It seems like that's what most people want. You and I will soon be considered Neanderthals in a land of cro magnons )

newtoboston

I know this battle has been fought many times on this thread but thought I'd add my 2 cents for the first time.

2 camps of BMW owners:

Luxury over performance buyers: Go with automatic and premium package

Performance over luxury buyers: Go with manual and sport package

Nothing wrong with either choice, just up to individual preference.

Some people prefer to eat/chat on their cell phone more than they like to shift. Not me.

And yeah, I probably can't do 0-60 any faster than someone with steptronic (not yet anyway), but I enjoy the motions to get there more.

seivwrig

I guess that places me in lux over performance. The speed limit in Houston stinks. I have to go to the hill country for twisty roads. Though I drive a manual on two days out of seven, shifting well is a skill. Somedays, my shifts are smooth as butter and other days, I jump through 1st thru 3rd. Seating postion really plays a big part in a good shift. I really think this a U.S. vs. Europe argument. I realize that we have had this discussion many times. I think it is a question of economics. If an automatic was very expensive ($2000 +), more Americans would drive manuals. But at the difference of $1000 and the fact that dealers try to force you into an automatic by keeping no manuals on the lot. The end result is a country of people driving slush boxes. In Germany, an automatic is a luxury like a six-cylinder car. Also, people like to order their cars and take delivery at the factory. The whole car buying experience is different. BMWNA by default has made the BMW a luxury sport versus sport luxury based on dealer inventory and the market. If the Alfa 154, Rover and all versions of the M-B C-class were sold in the U.S., we might see some differences. To be honest, we, as a people are not ready for real cars. Most American drivers are waiting for K.I.T.T. to be invented.

brave1heart

It's economics and infrastructure. In Europe, people drive manuals to save on gas (~$5-6/gallon). Gas is so cheap here that wasting it with automatics doesn't even put a dent into anyone's budget. As far as infrastructure, U.S. roads are wide, straight, and not nearly as congested as European roads, so drivers are not forced to pay nearly as much attention as European drivers. And they don't need the control that a manual gives you (not as much at least). That's why I say that people that drive manuals in the U.S. really love driving as opposed to Europeans who drive manuals mostly for economic reasons.

kominsky

How'd the commute go this morning? We got ripped off... about 2 inches of snow that melted off the roads as soon as the sun came out. Messed up my plans of telecommuting (as in, playing in the snow with my kids ;-)).

seivwrig

I think you basically hit the nail on the head. We are a country of excess. It would be nice if Drivers Ed was really educational. I have driven both manuals and automatics in Europe. I have only wished to have an automatic on mountain roads. I cannot stand when the automatic starts hunting for gears. I guess with CVT making a strong comeback, this might be one more nail in the coffin for the manual. Personally, my daughter will learn to drive with a manual. I figure that will force her to concentrate on driving instead of drinking a coke or talking on a cell phone. If she becomes proficient at shifting and talking on a cell phone, then kudos. Hopefully, she has learned something from me. If your hands are not on the wheel, they better be holding the gear shifter. I cannot stand people that want to do activities other than driving.

I remember when I went to England after I graduated from FSU, my uncle told me that I would never pass my driver's license exam in England. This was based on the way that I did a three point turn (both hands were not on the wheel). Getting a license in Europe can be quite anal. But I guess it is better to be anal than get your license out of a crackerjack box like in Florida (for any Floridian that wants to take offense, send your emails directly to me.)

newtoboston

Speaking of driving skills, I'm shocked at how many city people have very little ability to parallel park. I understand those who live in suburban/rural areas and don't have the need, but I constantly see people in the city who can't make it into a spot unless there's at least 4 feet of extra space. Oh well, more spots for me!

mg330ci

The availability of a Manual Transmission, no questions about it.

Don't fool yourself. If you believe that driving a manual is a waste of your time and skills, I can assure you, that you will be happier driving a MB or an Audi (nobody is more macho because he drives a "sporty" BMW (Sorry BMW, I know this is the image you are trying to sell )

Trust me, you will be happier with the softer ride of the MB, with the better appointed interior of the Audi, or with the extra isolation and gadgets of the Lexus.

1. Why would somebody want a BMW if their commute is stop and go traffic for 2 hours and the roads are full of holes?

2. Why would you want a BMW if you spent hours with the cruise control on every day for your commute?

However, if you dream about the day that you get out of work, and hit the back roads, then why would you want an automatic for?

Although I like my 330ci a lot, if I were 1 or 2, I'll be driving something else. Who cares about the image, the others are better solutions.

I hate to say this, but to me (JMHO) this is the equivalent of the housewife driving her Ford Excursion to the supermarket (you know, its a jungle out there, and only this massive extravaganza will be able to tackle it)

Yes, the automatic BMW buyer = 5 ton SUV buyer housewife (I think it has to do with pennis envy (I'm referring to the housewife by the way)

And we all know she would do MUCH BETTER with a Minivan (although she won't admit it.

jpnwdc

I appreciate your comments about SUV's. I personally hate them and have visions of being run over by someone driving their 5-ton behemoth that they bought so they could sit up high and "feel safer".
If you need to pull a trailer or transport people on a regular basis (like construction workers or something), then fine you need a Suburban. However, it bothers me that average fuel economy is actually going down in this country because of these vehicles, and no one seems to care. If I had kids and needed more space, I'd get a nice wagon (BMW or maybe Audi).

A minivan is actually a better choice for hauling people since it has more cargo space and is less likely to rollover. The minivan also has lower bumpers which makes it less dangerous to passenger cars.

div2

But driving a minivan will kill you- you'll die from boredom!

nobee

mg330ci, are you serious? There seems to be a myth going around these boards that all BMW drivers are these "sport enthusiasts" that care only about a manual transmission and the thrill of driving the "back roads." I hate to burst your bubble but I know that is not the case. Yes, I'll agree there are some BMW drivers, like Brave, that may do some modifications and run their bimmers on the track, but I think I can safely assess, most people just want a reliable, safe vehicle that's pleasing to the eye. Even if I was stuck in traffic everyday or set cruise control on the highway, I would still take my 3-series over a MB or an Audi any day. I feel bad you feel otherwise.
I've driven my automatic 3-series on Nurburgring in Germany several times and I find it refreshing that it can handle the hairpin turns and accelerate through the straight-aways, however, that's not not the primary reason as to why I bought my 3-series. I bought it because it's reliable, has all the safety features I need for my family and because, plain put, it's a BMW with a rich history and a smooth engine.... I resent any correlation of my automatic BMW to a 5 ton SUV.

-nobee

nobee

;-P

riez

People who want BMWs to remain sport-oriented and to ensure manual transmissions need to do at least four things. First, buy 'em with manual transmissions and Sport Packages. BMW is a business enterprise designed to make money. BMW will build what sells. Dealers will stock what sells. Fortunately the number of BMWs with Sport Packages has been rising significantly the past years. Second, tell others about your positive experiences driving manual BMWs with Sport Packages. Positive word of mouth is invaluable over the long run. Third, join the BMW CCA to ensure there is a long-term viable enthusiast community spreading the word, offering fun events that promote spirited driving, and keeping great older cars alive for decades.

And fourth, keep in mind that there really is NOT a "bad" BMW, regardless of options. Thus, do NOT say anything bad about another BMW ownwer's choice. If that person wanted an automatic with Premium Package then that is the right car for them at the time. (You won't change people's attitudes or buying behavior by insulting them or their car.)

I say the above as a proud 2-BMW-car owner. My 540i6 (standard Sport Package) meets all my needs and my wife's 323iA (Premium Package only) meets her needs. Heck, I even enjoy driving her car. Both are a blast to drive. Way more fun than 95 percent of all the other cars out there.

butmywife1

Hey sievwrig, any more players arrested today? Manual or automatic, the 'Noles are going down tomorrow. Go Gators!
Butmywife1

fomentar

I am considering a 330Xi. Can someone opine as to the capability of the AWD system in snow. I have read a lot of posts between here and the Audi boards extolling the virtues of one system over the other. Simple question is...will the BMW system handle the snow in New England?

bossee2

Maybe it is my age 66 but i love the steptronic.
If ia'm in a sporty mood I go to man.
If ia'm in traffic I go to auto, What could be simpler then that.
It is a lot easier on my left leg.
By the way, my Brother who lives in Germany just bought a 320 D and
yes he is tired of shifting and he went with the steptronic.
Ia'm 100 % sold on the Steptronic.

A.K. Schroeder

seivwrig

I'm not going to watch the game today. The fiasco around the football team is pathetic. Having worked in the athletic dept at FSU, they probably should have got the death penalty after sneakergate 1. If the NCAA finds this player guilty of gambling on football games, FSU is going down. At this point, now is the time to go on the Death Penalty. Miami is probably going to go strong for at least three to four more years. The Gators have not shown any real strength since Sperrier left. Just too bad. Can you say "the end of two football dynasties."

To stay on BMWS, how is yours running? I have over 20K miles and only one problem (the clips broken in my sunroof).

needashave

Ok, I'm comparing a new 2002 325 sedan with basic features (metallic paint, auto, moonroof, heated seats) to a new 2003. The former can be had for roughly 29,800, roughly a $1300 discount. I'm having trouble getting any discount on the 2003, which is also tags on a price increase of $700. The MSRP on a 2003 is 31,795. The dealer has 4 of these new 2002s in stock. What are your thoughts?

dave330i

"And fourth, keep in mind that there really is NOT a "bad" BMW, regardless of options. Thus, do NOT say anything bad about another BMW ownwer's choice. If that person wanted an automatic with Premium Package then that is the right car for them at the time."

Sure there is. It's the ones optioned out to make it feel like a Lexus. If I could do it all over again, I would choose E36 over E46.

joes230

See www.urlizer.com/00/1366/ for a Car and Driver study about AWD.

mg330ci

transmission car (I think it was a 7 series, like 10 years ago or so?

And his answer was.....

If somebody wanted him to do the work and shift by himself, that person would have to pay him for doing it! (or something like that)

So Berger, a very good F1 driver, agreed with you. However, note that he is driving a luxury oriented and not a sports oriented car (within the BMW spectrum)

If you watch F1 in car cameras, lately, I really have a hard time detecting the finger movement to shift, and I wonder if they are using the automatic programs during racing?

However, (and this is MHO), I would drive something else if I wanted an automatic.

You must realize the significant (and I drove both) performance loss of the slushbox and the amount of control it takes away from you. The automanual would never give you the control you have with a true manual.

On the other hand, I strongly believe that the SMG transmission is a happy medium. The lack of clutch might be compensated by the efficiency and performance of the transmission shifts, and the automatic mode will be there if you want it.

seivwrig

I can agree with the power loss of the torque converter on an automatic. The control issue with a manual really comes down to driver skill. I Drive both a manual and an automatic on a weekly basis. I like the takeoff that I get with a manual, but the rowing of gears in non-highway driving gets tedious. Driving a manual is a learned skill unless you have driven a auto all your life. Knowing when and what gear to downshift can cost seconds on a track. Personally, I don't feel that I am an excellent driver. If I had to do an autocross with someone that is new to a manual, i think I might blow his doors off with the slushbox. He will spend more time considering shift points while I'm considering the line. This is no different that the manual versus SMG II issue. A competent manual driver will beat the SMG II driver but this does not apply to everyone. I believe that F1 has gone to the SMG to get consistent shifts but no power loss to a torque converter.

nerd

I just wonder what percentage of 3-series BMWs sold in the USA are manual trans. I have read that only ten percent of all cars (all makes) sold in the USA are manual.

nobee

mg330ci, I tend to agree with you for the most part. Like I said in my previous post, if I was single, I too would of purchased a manual, but I had no regrets with my STEP. I guess, your line about comparing my auto bimmer to a 5-ton suv got me going. 8-) fwiw, I dislike suv's and what it actually stands for..a gas-guzzling, pollutant. From 1lb hotdogs to super big gulps to grande lattes, we Americans are infamous for gluttony.

-nobee

tt1067

Just wonder is that ok to buy use winter tire for my 320i(canadian model-Toronto)im on tight buget now any tips/advice more than appericate.
How long the winter tire last 5-6 yrs?
is that ok to buy 3 seasons old winter tires?
anything i have to look for if i want to buy?
Thanks

pianoman2

Hi,

I'm new to BMWs. I'm thinking about getting a CPO 2001 330i, 5sp. Does anyone have any experience with CPO program and things that are covered/not covered, etc..The dealer claims it costs 2K to certify a car? Is it worth it spending extra money up front or buy cheaper and worry about extended coverage later?
Thanks in advance!

dolivette

Hi-

On the topic of manual trans - I just picked up my new 2003 325 xi. I noticed that the clutch takes some getting used to. I also found that it gives off a burning smell when I ride the clutch for just a few seconds (like backing out of my driveway). Is this just a normal break in?

Thanks.

bmw323is

needashave - IMO, if you are buying a new 2002 from a dealer, you shouldn't be paying more than $1,000 over invoice. The minute you drive it off the lot, the value will decrease substantially. If you keep the car for 5 years, it will make little difference. Try for a better deal on the 2002 if you are happy with the options.

nerd - I once read that about 30% of 3 series were sold with a stick, nationally. Don't know if that counted M3's. I've asked the two dealer's here in Denver that same question, and both have told me that they sell 10% max (325's and 330's) with a 5 speed. That's too bad. I had a step loaner today and it feels way slower than the 5 speed, and not nearly as fun to drive.

dolivette - the only time I smelled my cluth burning is when I revved the engine pretty high and rode the clutch of a second or two. You should try to keep the clutch all the way in or all the way out as much as possible. Letting the clutch "slip" by holding it part way is not good. You shouldn't smell a clutch during break-in.

riez

pianoman2... BMW has been selling around 40,000 CPO units annually in USA for past couple years. Numbers have really taken off since the program came out. Both Bimmer and Roundel magazines have had detailed articles within past 6 months on BMW CPO program.

You should check out BMW NA's web site CPO locator. If you bargain hard, you can get a good price on a CPO unit. Don't fall for the dealer's talk, but you will pay more for a CPO unit than a non-CPO unit, which is as it should be.

bossee2

nobee Bossee is this your name?
The name Bossee has a special meaning to me.
Would you please let me know.
ymax1@frontiernet.net Thanks

nobee

mg330ci was actually directing his comments to the both of us.

-nobee

idletask

Never, ever had a smell from the clutch here, even though I own the torquiest of all 3 series (330d). The only defect I could find is an abrupt engagement, and if I missed a few gears, the pedal would generate some vibrations for a time but then go back to normal behavior...

Well, OK, I've always driven manuals, so I'm a little more used to it...

butmywife1

I agree with your assessment. I think they booted him to avoid an investigation of point fixing and gambling. You are right, it just ain't like it used to be. What a great run, though, huh?

The 325'r is running great. Just passed 10K and not a lick of problem (aside from being keyed after I had it here in the States 2 weeks!). No regrets--I love the manual and I'm glad I got the tape deck. I've since added a cd 6-changer so I'm set for music and books on tape. It hasn't snowed here yet so I haven't had the opportunity to put the 38/62% to the test but I'm sure it will do well. I'm not planning on changing the tires out for winter. What tire pressures to you use?
Butmywife

djolley

While the Audi has a very capable awd system it is still a fwd based system and therefor is not going to drive like a real sports car should. And either you are looking at BMWs because you want a sports car or you are a yuppie. If you are a yuppie I would recommend the Audi, your friends will still think you are cool and just like you, they will not know the difference. Plus you will save $3,000 to $4,000 new or better yet go used and save $8,000 to $10,000 because their resale sucks. Now if you are a driving enthuist like myself or my wife. You will want the BMW. I live in eastern Washington where we get plenty of snow and my wife's is very capable in the winter and better yet I have a real sports car in the other 8 months of the year. I hope this helps you with your decision

kdshapiro

How about a third nother reason for wanted a BMW? Because you do.

djolley

While the Audi has a very capable awd system it is still a fwd based system and therefor is not going to drive like a real sports car should. And either you are looking at BMWs because you want a sports car or you are a yuppie. If you are a yuppie I would recommend the Audi, your friends will still think you are cool and just like you, they will not know the difference. Plus you will save $3,000 to $4,000 new or better yet go used and save $8,000 to $10,000 because their resale sucks. Now if you are a driving enthuist like myself or my wife. You will want the BMW. I live in eastern Washington where we get plenty of snow and my wife's is very capable in the winter and better yet I have a real sports car in the other 8 months of the year. I hope this helps you with your decision

abcnyc

Is there anything that should or could be done for alloy wheels dings/scratches as a result from unfortunate encounters with curbs ? I didn't know if they should be touched up or anything.

jean7of9

The Dealer called on Thursday confirming that my car arrived. It is a 03 330xi, Midnight Blue, Montana Sand leather,Myrtle Wood, SP, PP, Steptronic, DVD Nav, PDC and everything else except the phone. My excitement lasted about ten minutes until the dealer's second call. The car came with manual transmission because he forgot to punch the AT number on BMW order. After ten weeks of waiting and tracking the car step by step I am back to square one. After reconsidering all the new comers including 03 E-Class, I decided to re-order the fun-to-drive 330xi with the same configuration except for Birch Wood instead of Myrtle. Next ETD is February-03 and making sure it is assembled at BMW "after" Xmas holidays.
Jean

soverypoornow

Sometimes, you just do. Right on, kdshapiro!

soverypoornow

That's horrible. I remember the excitement of waiting, watching it through production, getting on the Wallenius site to track it across the ocean, finding a webcam on the Panama Canal so I could maybe see my ship go through the canal, running various scenarios through my head of how quickly my car would go through the VPC, etc. To think I would have done all of that and then got the wrong car? Sucks. On the bright side, I guess it would've given me another 10 weeks or so to get around to selling my old car.

jean7of9

I already arranged the selling of my Millenia S and had to re-negotiate its return. The dealer is now stuck with a very expensive E46 which is difficult to sell with the Nav System and all other options. On the bright side, I got an additional healthy discount and got to change the wood to my liking. They will also loan me a Z4 for two days next spring. This BMW dealer turned a mistake into an opportunity. Unlike the MB dealer who ordered my 99 E320 4matic without HID lights and was arrogant enough to tell me if I do not take possession of my car he has customers in the waiting lounge. The pathetic part is that both orders were in writing with the appropriate BMW (or MB) detailed part numbers. If only they could read it...
Jean

nevcool

We've finally gotten some snow in the Northeast. I'm curious to see how 325i's with snow tires are hacking it. Does the 325xi make more sense if you live where it's hilly and it snows?

locke2c

jean,

maybe someone is trying to tell you that you should be driving a manual transmission.

;-)

-Colin

leenelsonmd

Most BMW wheels are coated alloy wheels and can be refurbished to look like new for a fee. Your BMW dealer will do it for about $150 per wheel, but a wheel specialty shop will probably be between $70 and $130 per wheel.

If you are one of the rare ones with polished chrome BMW wheels then the nicks can frequently be buffed out for less.

jean7of9: sorry to hear about the car. I am glad the dealership was good about the mistake, but I am so sorry to hear that you have to wait longer. They would have had to put me on an inpatient psyche ward if something like that had happened to my new car.

jean7of9

Colin: I drove manual transmission a good part of my life. I owned VW, Peugeot, Citroen, Sunbeam, MB and Ferrari Dino,(and ten others) all with manual transmission. I find the new Steptronic as good as manual and certainly better in heavy traffic.

Lee: Thanks. Luckily I am still driving a wonderful E320 4matic which is fairing perfectly well in this snowy period. Hence I should not complain really.
Jean

jean7of9

The 03 330xi with SP comes with 4Seasons Run-Flat tires and Tire Pressure+Flat Tire Monitoring. This kind of Tires is mounted on the special wheel by BMW. This wheel does not come with OEM Winter tires yet and the dealer will not mount winter tires on this wheel to avoid messing the sensors. It is possible though to procure a Winter Kit which consists of 4 winter tires on wheels. The car will run fine all winter with this kit except that the Tire Monitoring System will not work for winter because BMW Winter kit does not include sensors. Consider it a kind of system hibernation.
One more remark about this system. It does not identify which wheel is losing pressure. You still have to pressure-test each tire. Last month, I drove for 1000 miles in France a 02 Renault Laguna equipped with the Tire Pressure/Flat monitoring. The Renault computer pictogram identifies each faulty tire separately.
Jean

bossee2

Hallo Hobee
I took the name from a very small lake in Germany
and I thought nobody would think of that name.
It is a small world after all.

mg330ci

The BMW sportier suspension (standard on the 330) might be uncomfortable, stiff and bumpy for some people (my wife, used to the softer suspension of our Honda Odyssey, complained about it the other day).

The BMW telepathic steering wheel might be to hard for others.

Yes, the Audi interior is MUCH nicer than BMW.

So perhaps, you might be happier with the Audi.

P.S. BMW, don't you dare to make the suspension nor the steering softer.

One more thing, the BMW is the most difficult car to drive out there with a cup of coffee in your hand, or while applying lipstick, or while holding a cell-phone in your ear, even with the automatic transmission, so beware.

I love the Honda S2000, but even for a hardcore car enthusiast like me, this little beast was too much (although I'm still savoring the idea). If you like the BMW (after extensive test-drives) you will never look back.

If somebody wants a BMW because he wants one, then why ask for advice?