BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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Comments

  • thedeepdarkbluthedeepdarkblu Member Posts: 106
    I think my arms will get a sufficient workout from gripping the steering wheel in complete bliss. My facial muscles will get their share from the monster grin plastered on my mug as I downshift.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    They are all very good cars, with slightly different approaches. Just drive them all and pick what you like best. You really can't go wrong with any of the 3.
  • denrightdenright Member Posts: 285
    Please post a link to the site listing the 0-60 times that you discussed above, with the 5.8 seconds for the 330 and 6.7 for the 325.

    Thanks!
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    peter80 - driven all; own the 325 and my wife has the A4 1.8t. Would vote for the 325 with both hands and feet. Out of the 325, 328, and 330, the 328 was relatively the worst deal because the 330 was only $500-600 more and you know it offers more in performance and standard options. That would also make a used 328 relatively worse deal than a 325.

    brightness - yes, it would be smart to include the opportunity cost of money for fine-tuning. My numbers did not do that. Bottom line is, you should take the difference in price between the two cars and figure out based on YOUR opportunity cost of money how much that translates into on monthly basis. In my case, I should've used a difference of 16 grand (21 for the new car - 6 for the old one) and calculate based on my rate of return how much I could've earned with the 15 grand savings on monthly basis. Maybe $50 safe bucks a month but that's something to consider. This analysis holds true regardless of whether you have invested the 15 grand or borrowed it or both (as in my case) - the only thing that changes is the opportunity cost of the money. One more thing (minor) to consider is that used cars are generally financed at higher rates than new cars. A major thing would also be the risk involved in buying a used car. That Nissan 240SX that we had bought for 5-6 grand for my wife way back when - well, we had to junk in two years b/c it had an engine problem and would have been more expensive to fix it than take the big loss.

    div2 - wrong! Your used Bimmer would likely cost a lot less than 15 grand to maintain over an equivalent period but what makes you think it will depreciate by MUCH less? So you bought a 20-grand 3-year old Bimmer for 15 grand less that what it cost new. How much do you think it will be worth in another 3 years? Probably 10 grand less - unless you think you can get more than 10 grand for a 6-year old Bimmer with some 100K miles on it. Is it likely that you'd have to spend 5 grand on repairing it? I bet it is. That would bring you to 10 depr. + 5 repairs = 15 total cost, or about the same as the depreciation on a new one. Difference is your ownership has a lot more risk to it and a lot more hassle repairing the car. There is no straightforward answer to new vs. old - it all depends on your assumptions. All I'm saying is don't assume that a used car will end up costing you less than a new car over equivalent ownership periods. And even if it does end up costing less - you get what you paid for - a used car.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    go edmunds/new/bmw/select your model/specs (I think it's the second-last page tab) the 330 is at 5.9. keep in mind that only SOME 3-series models had times posted (i think the 330ci) so you mayhave to poke around. good luck
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    a4 still driver's car; just not quite the driver's car the bmw is; only one i'd consider is the 1.8t - it's very close perf-wise to the 2.8 but MUCH cheaper
    "monster grin plastered on my mug as I downshift" - lol..........
  • alpine325ialpine325i Member Posts: 209
    (Johnny Carson) "I did not know this, wild stuff". DUH! I didn't even know that BMW had a 323 or a 328. Do they still make them? I didn't see them on BMW's website. How different are they in price and HP compared to my 2001 325i sedan? I must have been so knocked out by the 325i in the showroom that day, because I didn't even bother to ask about any other models except for the 330 which was too much for my budget at the time. Any info would be appreciated, thanks! :o)
  • denrightdenright Member Posts: 285
    Edmunds has different 0-60 times for the 330Ci and the 330i. 5.9 for the 330ci, 6.7 for the 330i.

    I would be shocked if there was really a .8 second difference between the two. In fact, 6.7 is substantially (.3 seconds) slower than BWM actually has rated the 330i.

    Thoughts? I guess I should check the different weights for the 330i and 330Ci to get a feel for what might explain this huge time difference.
  • bmwagonmasterbmwagonmaster Member Posts: 150
    Brave: If div2 has a CPO, then the BMW warranty is for 6 years/100k, so he shouldn't have any repair expenses. That was one of the reasons I bought used even though I started shopping new.
    The BMW CPO program is very, very thorough. I had an earlier brief post about my CPO experience, and I'd be happy to share more info with anybody interested.
  • denrightdenright Member Posts: 285
    Ok, this makes no sense.

    Edmunds has the 330i listed at 3318 lbs, and the 330Ci at 3351 lbs. That's right, the Ci is 33 lbs heavier.

    Edmunds has the 330Ci listed at 5.9 second in the 0-60, and 120 feet stopping distance 60-0. Meanwhile it lists the LIGHTER 330i with a 0-60 time of 6.7, and 126 feet stopping distance 60-0.

    Am I the only one who thinks Edmunds didn't do a great job conducting these tests? Both cars have the same motor, the same gearing, the same drive train. What am I missing here???
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    33 lbs heavier is my Winter weight :o) and it doesn't make THAT much of a diff, especially in the wrong direction?!? At least on the Bimmer it should not - me is a different story.
  • thedeepdarkbluthedeepdarkblu Member Posts: 106
    Yup. A4 is a great car, but lacks something in the feel-good department. Also, it doesn't feel nearly as taut as the 3. Not nearly as "muscular" either. Definitely more feminine but still a great car.
  • bja104bja104 Member Posts: 26
    I'm thinking of buying a 330Ci. What have people experienced regarding the dealer's negotiations? Are people paying closer to sticker or closer to invoice? Also, I'm told that since I want a manual, I will have to order it (seemingly limiting my negotiating ability). Have people had to order their manuals?

    And has anybody taken delivery in South Carolina? Do you recommend it?

    Thanks.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    I didn't know that - my mistake. Just scrap my analysis (or at least take 5 grand repairs out of it) if the CPO plan states that you will absolutely, positively not have to pay anything repair or maintenance-related for the car for 6 years. I admit I am not familiar with the plan and I was just generalizing about old vs. new. I pointed out, however, that there is no straightforward answer and that your analysis would depend on the assumptions that you are working with. My assumptions in this case were obviously incorrect and I apologize for that.
  • burrsrburrsr Member Posts: 255
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
  • bmwagonmasterbmwagonmaster Member Posts: 150
    no apology necessary. You're generally on target with your posts and I enjoy your writing. Just to be clear, though, the no-cost maintenance is NOT added on, just the regular warranty coverage. The maintenance stops after 3yr/36k like all 3's, so you're then paying that, new or used.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Are you kidding? How is the A4 'feminine'?
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    Manual is standard on BOTH the 330i and 330ci, so that doesn't explain the difference. Oh, get this - the CONVERTIBLE is also rated at 5.9 sec, although it's 3,600+ lbs ?!? I didn't see any times for ANY 325 this time around - I may have mistaken the 6.7 from the 330i for the 325's time. Although based on komisnky's link, that 6.7 time should be doable extrapolating from the 323's 6.5 time.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    The A4's steering is a little lighter even compared to the 3-series' assisted steering; the pedals and especially shifter require less physical effort to drive. The engine sound has less growl and it sounds more refined, quieter at full throttle, less aggressive.
    The biggest difference is in the looks: the A4 has a more voluptuous, rounder shape; all the details are very stylish but cuter. Case in point: look at the cute, roundish side blinker on the A4 and the narrow, long side blinker in the 3-series. There are a lot of subtle differences like this if you look more closely. The interior is a little more elegant, definitely more luxurious IMO but even most controls are smaller size. Just compare the door handle - both inside and outside - the BMW's are sized for a larger person. The doors are also much heavier in the BMW. We parked them both next to each other once and went over the differences - I had not realized how feminine the Audi looks until I compared it to the 3-series.
  • platypusplatypus Member Posts: 192
    Here's what I found based on Edmund's road tests and comparison tests (from fastest to slowest):

    330Ci 5-speed: 5.9 sec
    328i 5-speed: 6.3 sec
    328Ci 5-speed: 6.5 sec
    328i step: 6.9 sec
    323Cic 5-speed: 7.9 sec
    323iT step: 8.8 sec

    I saw the specs in the car-specific areas, and they are obviously inaccurate. 5.9 sec. for the 330Cic is absurd! I conclude that if looking at Edmunds data, only the road and comparison tests are accurate.
  • platypusplatypus Member Posts: 192
    The 325Cic 5-speed is rated at 7.7 sec by BMW so it makes sense that the 323Cic is slightly slower.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    I missed the "c" at the end of "cic" - thank you for correcting me. I removed my previous posts because it was not based on correct facts. I think the numbers you found look very reasonable.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    It's different, yes. Feminine, no (how do rounder lights make it feminine?). And I'd bet there's just as much engine growl at WOT as there is in the 325i (no, I don't have exact numbers, but I recall it being about the same when I tested them).

    As for the pedals and shifter, I seem to recall they were about the same, maybe the clutch pedal was a bit heavier in the Bimmer, but both cars have very smooth shifters. I honestly don't remember what the steering on the Bimmer felt like, so I won't comment on that. The interior controls are different on the 2001 A4's than on the one you own. They are not small, petite buttons anymore (they're not big, plasticky GM buttons, either).

    So you're trying to say that only big, brawny men drive Bimmers and only pretty little ladies drive A4's? I'd be willing to bet you that as a percentage, just as many 3 series Bimmers are driven by women as are A4's.

    The cars are very similar in their approach. You'd have us believe that they are worlds apart. They're not...
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    But a rounder, shorter shape is cuter, more feminine and subtle than a narrow, long, more aggressive shape. The shifter and pedals are totally smooth - that wasn't my point. It's just that the BMW's require more physical effort.

    As platypus says, take this for what it is - some guy on the Internet...We do own and love both cars. As a matter of fact, I liked the A4 so much after we bought it that I was almost ready to forget my dreams for a BMW and run buy one for myself too. We do swap cars on regular basis for various reasons and I thoroughly enjoy driving both, OK? They are very similar in their approach and that's why I love both.
  • johneunahjohneunah Member Posts: 4
    I am taking delivery of a 330ci silver/black, sp,xenon,lthr,moonroof,cd for $2k over invoice plus MACO($600). Initially the salesman said $2.5k over. The 330i can be had for $1.5k plus MACO over invoice. eom.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    To me it looked like you guys were saying "Only women drive A4's. The Bimmer is the MAN's car."

    Peter is just trying to buy a car. I'm sure he would have rather heard you say how you love driving both than saying how much of a girlie car you think the A4 is.

    It took you 3 posts of saying how feminine the A4 before you actually said you like (actually you said love) it.
  • bja104bja104 Member Posts: 26
    MACO?? Forgive my ignorance, but what is that?
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    I also paid invoice + (almost) $2K for my 330Ci... no MACO (whatever that is). I think deals closer to $1,500 over invoice are becoming more common recently depending on where you're shopping.

    It's surprising that discounts are growing at the same time that sales are booming. BMW has been setting all kinds of sales records monthly with the 3-series leading the way (for understandable reasons ;-))
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    I guess it will take (at least) one more post for me to explain better. Let me start by saying that I was simply stating my observations and subjective opinion and I'm not backing off from any of them and from any of my A4-related posts today. I also think that you overreacted a little and focused too heavily on the feminine aspect of the car. I also mentioned that the A4's interior is more luxurious but you didn't make a note of it. Ultimately, I have pointed observations about the cars that peter80 or anyone else can check out for themselves next time around. These are observations; not bashing. Yes, I do think it looks more feminine but no, I never said that it's a girlie car. I certainly do not feel uncomfortable AT ALL being seen in it. Percentage-wise, ballpark, in the Boston area, I've seen 70%/30% male/female BMW drivers and around 50/50 for the A4. None of these numbers mean anything at all as far as car selection. But I personally do like the heavier shifter and pedals in the 3-series and my wife thought it was too heavy for her and required more precision (she's far from being a petite skinny girl). When all is said and done, the A4 is more feminine THAN the BMW but not TOO feminine in general. I love both but I'm passionately KRAZY about the 3-series.
  • bmwagonmasterbmwagonmaster Member Posts: 150
    Check out this link for all manufacturers auto sales year to date. BMW is behind only Hyundai and Kia! Any comments on THAT, gang?

    http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories0604/sales604.htm
  • platypusplatypus Member Posts: 192
    I cannot offer an opinion on the A4's gender image, but I can say this: the RS4 is one of the best looking cars out there. I saw two of them during my recent trip to Europe and was left drooling.

    mmcbride1 - is the RS4 available in the land down under?

    Unfortunately we here in the states are not privileged enough to even have the opportunity to own one. Audi doesn't see a market for it.

    This could be my dream car:

    - 380hp
    - 0-100 km/h in 4.9 sec
    - AWD
    - 6-speed manual tranny
    - 18" wheels
    - 14" brakes in the front and 12" in the rear
    - wagon utility
    - German craftsmanship
    - impeccable Audi interior

    Imagine this: Pull up to a stoplight with your family in the car. Corvette driver with trophy girlfriend pulls up next to you. Looks at you and smirks. Revs engine. You return the glance. You, wife, and two kids in back don racing helmets and four-point harnesses. Light turns green. Quattro gives you virtually no slippage and you're off to the races. Corvette is left behind in a cloud of smoke enveloped with the smell of burnt rubber from excessive wheel spin. Trophy wife gives Corvette driver a slap in the face. Family enjoys a good hearty laugh while removing helmets. We're goin' to Disneyland!

    Not that I would ever do this, but it would sure be fun. (BTW, credit goes to another source for this story.)

    Anyway, it's just a pipe dream for now, although I have heard that there is a slight chance that Audi is contemplating bringing the RS6 to the US. And that BMW is rumored to have an M3 Touring in the works...
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    c'mon - fess up, buddy. i didn't dare say anything gender-specific before that and now that you empowered me, you're bailing out... kidding, all right.........
  • bmwagonmasterbmwagonmaster Member Posts: 150
    Does this Board have anything to do with BMW's sales increase? If so, can we posters expect BMW refund checks in the mail, along the lines of our Fed tax refunds? And will they scale it like the Feds, with Frank (M3) getting a bigger check than me (323)?
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    ...owners of wimpy 325's should be getting as big a refund check as the m3 owners

    great link - there's a lot you can read into it
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    When I read your post, I thought you were talking total units sold... I was wondering what happened to Honda, Toyota, "the big three", etc. But after checking the page, I see you meant growth rate...

    I think the explanation is two-fold; 1) a great car and 2) a lot of people are financially secure enough to spend the necessary money for #1.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    I live in Colorado. So no RS4 here, either.

    And braveheart, I know you're crazy and hard-headed and that you'll never back down from anything...cause you've always got to be right.
  • platypusplatypus Member Posts: 192
    Platypus is a diplomat. Always has been - always will be.

    max93 posed the questions about gender specific colors and I gave him my opinions, donned my flamesuit, and was prepared to defend myself. No one seemed to disagree or attack me though.

    Little did I know it would start a war between the US and Australia.

    I guess it's all in the delivery... ;-)
  • platypusplatypus Member Posts: 192
    The flag flying next to your name threw me off...
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    I can't wipe the smile off my face after reading your "borrowed" scenario above. I can't shake the image of my wife and kids donning helmets and harnesses... :-)
  • veekay1veekay1 Member Posts: 180
    Great story Platypus!!
    I would even do it!!! (if such a vehicle was available)
    veekay1
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    mmcbride1 - You can call me thick-headed instead of hard-headed, I could care less. Yes, I like to be right - don't we all? I argue passionately but I do change my opinion if you convince me and I do back down - I did it just this afternoon when I realized I didn't know the CPO program. You'd sound less like a sorry loser and more convincing if you used facts or particular items (shapes, pedals, shifter, whatever) than going on a tangent with "brawny men drive Bimmers and only pretty little ladies drive A4's".

    platypus, thank you for being diplomatic and especially being the one that always has his sense of humor around. I fight enough battles around me during the day that exhaust my diplomatic skills and I feel like taking some liberties on the Net helps me blow steam off. It's fine if the steam goes both ways - makes for more interesting discussions.

    Peace - I'm going to see how the Shtroumpf is doing.
  • veekay1veekay1 Member Posts: 180
    Brave: where did u get this phrase "Shtroumpf Muscle" and what does it mean?
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    I was looking for a name for my car and I wanted something related to the smurfs (playful, fun, lovable). My wife told me that the original cartoonist was Belgian and that the smurfs are really called Shtroumpf. I think she actually said it was Shlumpf in German and Shtroumpf in French - I don't remember but I liked Shtroumpf better. Then I wanted to add something that emphasizes the sporty character of the car and I added Muscle. Well, it was reminding me too much of Muscle cars and I decided to pronounce it "muus-kleh" or however it sounds in French because it is cuter. That's how I ended up with Shtroumpf Muscle which really would mean "Muscly Smurf". Stupid, I know but it puts a smile on my face...
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Now I remember why I stopped talking to you. Goodbye.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    Whatever... Your refreshing "brawny men drive Bimmers and only pretty little ladies drive A4's" comments will be sorely missed. Good thing your memory is better than your emotional intelligence :o)
  • veekay1veekay1 Member Posts: 180
    very interesting, brave!
    very interesting indeed.hmmmm...
  • uge123uge123 Member Posts: 100
    I know what you mean about the RS4. I was in Monte Carlo during the Grand Prix and saw a ton of incredible machinery there, from Ferrari's to a street legal M-B LeMann's racer (what model is that?). But the RS4 still stopped me in my tracks. It's a beauty. Having driven an S4, I can imagine what a sub-5.0 sec 0-60 would be like.

    My dream car: The M3 running gear in a 3-wagon body. Then I could run with my buddy's S4 and still have space for luggage.

    My personal bias, though, is that even with all the sports modifications the S4 carries, I feel that the 325i with SP is still sharper and flatter in transition and in sweepers. The shorter Audi chassis makes it feel a bit darty in comparison.
  • uge123uge123 Member Posts: 100
    To add some fuel to the fire, when my wife and I were looking at cars, she loved the A4 Avant and I loved the 325iT. On further reflection, the A4 leans more toward the soft and luxurious while the Bimmer leans toward the sporting. Also, the Audi's styling is more subltly muscular while the Bimmer, with it's sharply chiseled lines, is more overt, more obviously buff, tastefully, of course.

    But more feminine or masculine? That, I would think, is in the eye of the beholder, whatever statistics may be.
  • burrsrburrsr Member Posts: 255
    I think that models can be more masculine or feminine depending on what configurations and packages one has. Take the 3er for example. From feminine (top) to masculine (bottom), here's how I'd classify, based solely on aesthetics:

    CONFIGURATION
    325/330Cic (non SP)
    325/330Ci (non SP)
    325/330i (non SP)
    325/330Cic (SP)
    325/330Ci (SP)
    325i (SP)
    330i (SP)

    Notice that, TO ME (note pseudo-disclaimer in CAPS), the SP carries a heavier weighting toward the masculine than does body configuration. Further, the ultimately intimidating looks of the 330i SP, with its M-style alloys, staggered, wide tires, and oval fog lights (some may say borders on cheesy, but nevertheless) says "don't mess with me" like nothing except the M3. I think it's all in the wheel design, and the 325i SP's are a close second due to the large diameter and strength that the design conveys.

    While we're on the topic, while I do find the design of the A4 very attractive, I've NEVER looked at one and thought, "don't mess with that," and that goes for the S4 as well. Interested to see what the 2002 design does for the masculine/feminine connotations...
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