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The article visits Sean Kane's site and includes this quote:
"Toyota has had indications — at least since 2003 — that its new Electronic Throttle Control System - Intelligent (ETCS-i) could and did malfunction and that its electronic fault detection strategy has gaps," said the updated report by Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a Massachusetts-based firm that has studied the Toyota recalls and provided congressional testimony. "The Engine Control Module (ECM) does not always catch the errors it is designed to catch. This deficiency takes on a greater significance with a multiroot-cause problem like SUA [sudden unintended acceleration]. If the ECM doesn't catch the discrepancy between driver commands and vehicle behavior, the system cannot fail safely. Compounding these issues are ergonomic factors and the lack of overarching safety backstops that make it difficult for Toyota drivers to control a vehicle that experiences unintended acceleration."
The more they protest, the more it looks like they really are hiding something.
And, to be honest, would it really shock anyone that computer controls and 4000lb moving objects make for a bad combination?
Absolutely no evidence of any problem with Toyota computers. None. Zippo. Hundreds if not thousands of accidents analyzed with no one finding fault with Toyota.
Now I can better understand why so many innocent people were burned as witches in the past. The cause of those crashed has been determined...panic and poor driving skills for some and lying and trying to cash in for others. That's it in a nutshell. Now where is my million dollars?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Well, isn't *everything*, in relation to an accident in a modern car? They could have thrown in weather and the kitchen sink.
You know, when Challenger blew up, they figured out what caused it. It wasn't a "might have been" of design, astronaut training, weather, safety overrides, etc. It was this *thing*, this seal.
It's a far cry from the type of careful programming that NASA and the military uses. They have fail-safes in place, redundancy, and multiple people checking and re-checking the code for errors. Automotive makers simply don't have this level of resources, though, which is entirely understandable. So the problem is... should they be doing it at all? If they can't make it truly fail-safe, shouldn't they go back to manual controls instead?
Tens of millions of people are running around the world currently in their vehicles (from dozens of makers) that (now) use software to control it. There are no standards, there is no independent process to verify that it works properly, no true fail-safe modes (so far - I've not seen one, though maybe there is one in the works) , and the programmers are a tiny section of the entire process of making the vehicle. In essence, they are in a corner and all but forgotten by management(probably out-sourced or done by a contractor, at that). I'm convinced that this is the tip of the iceberg and we'll see things get a whole lot worse as these drive-by-wire vehicles start to age.
Let me be clear - I am not saying it IS the software or electronics, only that some black box which cannot be opened can neither be condemned nor exonerated.
This is like having an eye witness to everything fleeing the country and can't be extradited, but would be critical to the outcome of the trial.
I'm amazed that the other error is made - because they can't know anything about it, it can't possibly be the problem.
And as I've pointed out we don't even know the path length of any of the mechanisms - e.g. does the brake go directly into the cut-off circuit, or does it go through software, or is it a CAN message?
You know nothing except "it can't be that" - though you have no knowledge of what "that" is.
So that leaves 3 possibilities
1. There is nothing to fix
2. There is something to fix but Toyota can't find it.
3. Toyota knows all about it but is hiding the truth
Analysis:
#1-- very possible but it's premature, and perhaps arrogant, to say that.
#2 -- doubtful, but certainly possible
#3 -- waste of time pursuing that possibility and illogical on the face of it.
But the thing is, as vehicles become more and more pieces of software, management needs to start to devote a significant part of their resources to this.(essentially becoming a software company as well) As it is, it's a couple of percent of their attention and virtually nothing in the overall budget. The project managers are focused upon building cars and trucks and usually don't have a clue about programming. ie - they see it as mysterious crap that someone else does and when they turn the button on, pretty lights show up. So you get idiocy like "make the lights understand voice commands"(and literally thinking it can be done in a few days) without any understanding of what's involved.
In this case, I think Toyota's problem isn't the only the lawsuit but also what admitting to a mistake would mean - that their entire work and business plan is fundamentally flawed in Japan(which any normal person would probably say is so if they looked at it - there's plenty online to find about this topic). ie - There's a social and work-place culture issue here as well that is essentially forbidden to discuss in Japan that's also driving their response.
In other words, those software ECU problems are the programmer's fault, and sometimes our customer's crappy driving habits, and none of our own. And the Toyota CEO is absolved of all blame and guilt. No committing hari-kari required.
And in spite of that very idea we are going to just act like nothings going on at all, fix some faulty accelerator pedals and floor mat configurations and continue blaming the dumb drivers who buy our cars, and in some models retrofit a brake override system?
Does anyone else look at this tip-toeing around by Toyota as slightly suspect? Or, do you feel like it's not their programmer's fault and it is driver's making stuff up and making driving pedal selection errors? Shifting blame only works for a chunk of months then we want real answers to munch down on. Right now our meal is not real tasty and we feel like we're paying too much for what we are getting in an automotive purchase. Or at least I do.
I have pretty much dropped my pursuit of the 2012 Toyota/Scion FT-86 FR-S, not completely because of Toyota SUA issues but certainly partially so. I'm looking at Italian sports cars right now, at least until I find out how much Alfa Romeo is going to want for a 2011 Giulietta.
This Toyota SUA remains an interest of mine, though, as enthusiasts everywhere demand answers from the Japanese automaking behemoth. Come on, Toyota, if you know something splash it out in to the open and subject it to the masses
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If there's a problem in the design that might cause a fault in rare instances, well, it won't get mentioned. No Japanese worker is going to tell management that they need take several months to redesign the entire system to be properly fail-safe in case that rare problem surfaces. They will do what is expected of them and say nothing. Now, to be fair, this isn't that different than in the U.S., either(we tend to also throw whistle-blowers under the bus) , but our culture prides itself on individuality so there's a *slightly* larger chance that someone might speak up or make waves.
As for management, admitting you were in error just doesn't happen unless something caught on fire or blew up. In your office. With your signature on it. In any case, it's not the lousy workplace culture and completely vertical power structure. That would be calling the entire society into question...
I find it interesting that so many people are brainwashed into blindly believing what they see on TV and in the news when it comes from a large company(or The Government). "Show me and then I'll believe you" should be the first response to any claim by them.
Whether or not it's actually Toyota's fault isn't the main issue, though. It's that they don't appear to come clean and the fact that it's physically impossible for much simpler mechanical designs to fail in such a manner(and it's a lot cheaper to put in a simple cable, so why spend the extra money?). We had a nice and reliable design already and the first time a brand new technology to replace it that's supposedly "better" is having problems, they take this stance.
That's not going to happen. And besides, Toyota may genuinely believe that there is no defect.
Someone has yet to prove them wrong.
It isn't just in the corporate world...
Check out your auto insurance policy guidelines... Its a safe bet thet you'll find a clause stating that under no circumstances are you to admit fault in an accident at the scene, even if its clear you are the one at fault. Some companies don't even want their client to say he's sorry in an accident, as that can be conmstrued as an admission of fault.
Its the double edged sword of legality nowadays.
The judge said he will issue a final ruling on the matter by Thanksgiving Day.
The tentative ruling means that Toyota could be liable for damages down the road."
Judge Won't Dismiss Toyota Acceleration Lawsuits (Inside Line)
Note that the "final ruling" is just a decision on whether to let the plaintiffs go forward or throw out the suit. Nothing to do with the merits (although the decision considers whether there's enough smoke in the allegations to consider them).
Oh, its been done before, so its definitely possible. Usually you hear about it in criminal cases, where the DA hid evidence from the defense team. Alabama and Mississippi used to be great states to win "jackpot justice".
For example...http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/oct/04/20031004-123030-2013r/-
These cases generally get over-turned by higher courts, where the influence of emotions are much less evident.
Unfortunately, I suspect anyone reading this posting will be dead before all the legal wrangling is over as it relates to Toyota and UA...
that when she used her cell phone to call her husband, "God Intervened" and car
slowed to 35mph- Question s/b did the numbers you punched in contain 3 & 5 ?
NO ONE ASKED did they? Either congress has NO COMMON SENSE or its a
cover up- who would buy a car if you can't use your cell phone- no one- means US
has to bail out another car company- 2nd CLUE is when you dial 911 you also do
international distress signal of 112. When 7" FM antenna we call TURN SIGNAL
picks up these signals, Fuzzy Logic of Cruise Control CPU ignores 911mph but it
can do 112mph- its why San Diego cop lost control when his brother dialed 911
Cell Phone frequency generates a 14" wave length that interacts with any halfwave
wire length protruding into the cockpit- (can we say TURN SIGNAL?) Problem is
Cell Phone has to be TUNED to that particular cars exact wire lengths and thats
why it only happens on occasion when Murphy's Law has right Cell Phone with
right wave length exactly tuned to the right wire length to make the connection
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-11-30/toyota-review-still-finishing-loose-- ends-u-s-says.html
excerpts
Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) -- A review of unintended acceleration incidents in Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles by two U.S. agencies may not be released this fall in the U.S., as the top auto- safety regulator said he’d wanted.
“We want to get it right,” National Highway Traffic Safety Administrator David Strickland told reporters today in Washington. “I’m not going to get hung up on a date if we need to tie up loose ends.”
NASA, the U.S. space agency, began a review eight months ago of reports of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. The world’s largest automaker, based in Toyota City, Japan, recalled more than 8 million cars and trucks worldwide for defects in the largest such move by an automaker. It underwent a series of U.S. congressional hearings on how the flaws occurred.....
...NASA is studying whether electromagnetic interference may cause unintended acceleration, which may be linked to 89 deaths in 71 crashes since 2000, according to the auto-safety agency. NASA investigators are using Chrysler Group LLC’s test facility in Auburn Hills, Michigan, for its vehicle testing work, according an Aug. 10 NHTSA report to U.S. lawmakers.
The most simple explanation is usually the best....THEY AIN'T FINDING NUTHIN !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree. If it is a transient, odds are it will never be found.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
GOD INTERVENED to drop her speed to 35mph, but whats more likely is SIMPLE-
She probably dialed digits 3 & 5 in sequence with her RF transponder that we call a
CELL PHONE- D U H Did anyone ask what number she dialed- NADA'
Can anyone guess why? Last thing gov't needs is TRUTH and another car company
to BAIL OUT for who in their right mind would buy a TOYOTA if you can't use your
ever so important CELL PHONE that operates at a frequency of 14" wavelength to
be picked up by any 7" FM antenna in the vicinity- Can we say Turn Signal and is
it connected to a CRUISE CONTROL? More BIG BIG DUHS for everyone involved-
Talk about DUMBING DOWN a whole nation- how dumb is our national IQ = ~50
Let me know when they find intelligent life on Earth- can't belied no one sees this
Or is my brother right when he said
Let me sum it up for you brother-
"AMERICA is a big damn LIE" all the stoopid coruptness & greed going on
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=9950797
http://www.oregonsae.org/Meetings/misra_C.pps
saw this upcoming report
http://middleeastturbo.tamu.edu/uploads/files/METS-Mini-Program.pdf
141697
Detecting Memory Leaks in Acquisition Software F. Zhang, Schlumberger
No more calls, please.... We have a winner!
The allmighty doesn't design EM energy to prefer "disturbing" toyotas....
If that is the cause, its clear that toyota's cars are highly PRONE to such interference.
Remember, one can't blame factors that affect everybody. You can only see who can build systems that can withstand such factors much better than the other guys.
Best way out of this uncertainty folks, follow Warren Buffett " We will rather AVOID dragons than try to slay them ".
Why bother with toyota's still unsolved mystery when you can buy a Nissan, a Hyundai, a Ford, etc and you don't even have to bother with final results of these toyota SUA investigations ?
Better be safe than SORRY.
At least you came right out and said it. No proof, but avoid them anyway. Toyota is the best selling car in the world but no one should buy one. Very funny.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I love companies that do their business honorably. Whats the use of being jealous of big companies ? There is zero chance in my lifetime that I will accumulate wealth even close to 1% of toyota or other big companies net worth. Jealous is FUTILE !
But I sure do like taking shots at dishonourable companies and hope they will go bust one day. They don't deserve to get rich. Look at what Wikileaks have exposed. Corrupt guys hate them and want to kill the founder but I feel they at least show the world whats going on. The latest news : " Afghan vice-president landed in Dubai with $52m in cash ".
Do you think Wikileaks founder is jealous of this Afghan vice-president's wealth ? Hell no ! He, like me, just wants to expose these crooks for what they are and hope they get their deserved retribution. I sure hope Wikileaks will do some work on toyota. Will be more interesting than the facts already exposed so far.
And no proof just means NASA themselves does not know what's going on. BUT this does NOT mean that those toyota problems don't exist. This is the worse kind of problem : Even those rocket scientists at NASA can't find the needle in toyota's haystack. Small wonder, and chances are toyota's people may not even find it either.
This news makes toyotas even SCARIER !!! What man in his right mind will buy a product with hidden problems that could surface anytime AND NASA with all their wired brainpower, can't even find the needle and solve ?
All the more reason to avoid toyota !! Gosh ! If even NASA can't find the hidden problem, then God help all toyota drivers !!
Absence of a finding DOES NOT mean there is No problem ! And this is made worse by the fact that toyota so far has demonstrated greed and callous disregard for their consumers wellbeing.
Think abt this triple combination of greed, ruthlessness AND inability to solve their SUA problems. I say this is a RECIPE for future DISASTER !!
As Warren Buffett again says it well " You want to deal with people with 3 qualities : Brains, Energy and Honesty / Decency. If factor no 3 is not present, the other two will KILL you ! ".
Pretty much describes toyota and is the worse scenario of all " Got brains and energy but not very decent way of doing business. Double Trouble !! And yes, it sure kills people like Buffett says.
Take your chances with toyota if you want. Count me out. I'll take a Nissan, Hyundai, Honda or Ford anyday ! They are smarter than what jd power and CR says and sure much more decent when it comes to business.
And anyway, do you have absolute proof that toyota's quality is the best ? What jd power and CR says does not constitute strong proof. In fact, I can say, nobody will EVER know whose quality is the best. How do you know ? Do you have access to the service records of tens / hundreds of millions of cars around the world ?
Well, maybe, the OLD toyota, under old management, do make sensible cars. But today's toyota ? Forget it. Like AIG in the old days, admired for their size and profitability. But it turns out that they screwed up in the end too.
toyota today is the AIG of the car industry. Admired in the past, but today, they screwed up bad and worse, they are not even guilty about it. Even blame drivers for SUA problems !
Besides, there is other evidence. Who, even after 8 years, has made a better hybrid than Toyota? Nobody.
I'm not sure what you might require to prove an automaker as "honorable". Maybe ritual suicide of the top executives? :P
But seriously----my view is that no automaker, or any large corporation, is capable of being "honorable", because they are all into group-think, and morality really isn't on the radar. It's more about public image, PR, spin, and settling up for mistakes while admitting no guilt whatsoever.
I really don't see how it could be any other way. Big business is, by definition, somewhat rapacious and pathological. That's how it "grows"---not by being nice to each other.
As for recalls, some are voluntary (many, actually), some are based on odds so long that you wonder why they do it, and some are very necessary.
So quoting large numbers of recalls really doesn't tell us much. Think of all the defects in so many automaker's products, that, not being safety-related, don't ever get recalled, but rather just buried in endless lists of TSBs.
I'd be more inclined to judge a company on its TSB list than its recall list.
All that did not happen by accident. For years and years they have made crappy cars and had idiots running the company. Then, after going broke they got taxpayer money to make a fresh start for their union and government owners.
So if you want to rant, rant on someone who deserves it based on the facts, not on your imagination.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So much for "honorable"...
http://www.businessinsider.com/moodys-ceo-dumped-stock-sec-wells-notice-2010-5
From the link...
We suspect Moody's investors will also be interested to know that CEO Raymond McDaniel dumped 100,000 shares of stock at $29 a share the day the Wells Notice arrived. And that Berkshire Hathaway (BRK) sold ~678,000 shares that day and another ~300,000 or so in the week that followed.
LOL!!!
If the latter we have a software bug that shows it's ugly head so rarely that it is so far totally unpredictable in the actual real-time working environment. Pay is good provided it comes with a guaranteed fix.
We have had several top level, world class, programmers scratching their heads for weeks trying their best to replicate the failure in a laboratory environment.
I guess you have to have years and years of experience to understand that sometimes it's simpler or easier to just start rewriting the code from scratch in hopes the new source code doesn't inadvertently incorporate the same flaw.
One of the more current Intel processors has a known bug in that in certain circumstances it will execute specific instructions out of order. If the programmer/coder is aware of the "bug" it can be compensated for but absence the ERRATA knowledge it can lead to EXTREMELY rare programing sequence failures.
On the other hand NipponDenso is not very likely to employ commonly used, widely used, microprocessors which results in lowering the likelihood of even having an ERRATA sheet.
Right now I don't know of anyone outside of Toyota (NASA Included!) that even knows the complete signal path from whatever they are using as a brake sensor to whatever mechanism is supposed to limit or cut off the engine. There may not even be anyone inside of Toyota, but I would assume after this time someone has done some kind of system analysis or the authors would be available.
But even rewriting the code doesn't fix anything - you don't understand the failure yet (assuming it is software - I'm still agnostic). If the same methods and procedures led to the original bug, why do you expect it not to simply lead to a similar bug? If the flaw is in the design, or the requirements, then it needs to be fixed at that level, not have a reimplementation of a bad design.
Someone who understands the causation cannot replicate the failure either,for very,very specific reasons.
But we CAN explain how to fix all of these glitches.
It takes money Buddy! To Me.
I am the only one with my training that has the balls to snitch.
It's exactly like being asked what's wrong with a computer but being unable to log into it or open the case. Maybe we get lucky and it's something painfully obvious like a dead power supply. But otherwise, it's just us guessing with no hope of proving anything.
It's exactly like being asked what's wrong with a computer but being unable to log into it or open the case. Maybe we get lucky and it's something painfully obvious like a dead power supply. But otherwise, it's just us guessing with no hope of proving anything.
Unfortunately, with organizations out there such as WikiLeaks, its highly doubtful that Toyota (or any other company, for that matter) would be willing to release copies of source code to any government or private investigative agency. No guarantee of privacy would be sufficient.
So, if that possibility ever existed, its a given that its no longer on the table...