Oldsmobile Intrigue

oldsman01

Last friday I did about a 2 hour trip on the open road and the outside temp was about 95 degrees. From start up, it took the system at least 30 minutes before the climate control dropped the fan speed any(set at 69) and I don't believe it ever dropped to medium the entire trip. A few times the system would switch to outside air and when it did this there was a noticeable change in the A/C output and in a few minutes it would go back to recirculate until I finally selected recirculate so it would stay there. It's hard for me to say if the A/C system is not working properly or if it just can't keep up with the heat and sun. BTW, I was driving when the sun was at it's peak intensity. The system blows cold air, but it just seems to take it a while to cool the cabin. To me this is a just a system capacity issue. I'll have to look in the service manual again, but I recall seeing a chart in there which gives what the proper A/C output temps should be at various ambient tempertatures and I was surprised at how "warm" some of the spec output temperatures were when the outside temps were high. I don't know about now, but in the past GM cars where known for their excellent A/C cooling capacity.

b4z

My '99 also seemed to take awhile to cool things down.
The 1st setting couldn't keep up if the sun was out. The second setting could but was noisy.

I would have to run it on the 3rd or 4th setting to cool the car down which was very noisy ad seemed to take forever.

My impala cools down quicker than the intrigue. Maybe because of less glass area. I don't know.

You would think they would be identical.

focus

Swagled: Thank you for the info. now i feel more confortable driving and downshifting to 3rd gear; it sure give you more control and no overdrive occured when you are in 3rd, i guess.

redline65

I have tinted windows, and in the summer I keep the temperature set on 72, and in the winter I keep it on 78. On these settings I find that I don't have to keep adjusting it, the system works very well. As far as the outside display, mine stays way off even after the car has been running for a long time. It's reading about 20 degrees too low. I'm going to have it checked out next time I get the oil changed. It doesn't seem to have an effect on the inside cooling, so I don't think the system takes the outside temperature into consideration for cooling - I believe it only measures the inside temperature and the sunlight (which is why the system slows down when clouds are overhead or you pull into a garage).

one2one

Man, you've been thru a lot. I've had dealers tell me "cannot duplicate" so many times it gets my blood boiling. Makes you wonder what they're thinking when they basically tell a guy tall and big enough to be in the WWF or play opposite Lawrence Taylor that he's imagining things :-) Hopefully, they won't pull that stunt with me although I almost expect it since the TSB header indicates that the problem usually occurs when it's cold. In a case like flickering lights, I would think they'd make the repair since not doing so could have devestating consequences. But with the TSBs and symptoms printed out, I don't expect too many problems. Almost every time I write problems down they take me more seriously. I guess they assume if I take the time to write it down I must have investigated it in detail.

lmacmil

Coming off an exit ramp at about 40 but the radius was decreasing faster than I was decelerating. Squealing is the tire's way of saying "you're going too fast for the driving situation." When my tires speak, I usually listen.

sda

While I was browsing on Sunday at the dealership, a man approached me and asked if I had seen any new Intrigues. I replied that because the dealership now only sold Cadillacs, and had dropped the Olds franchise, they had gotten rid of their new stock and the only Olds dealer that I knew of is 25 miles away in a different town. He shook his head in disgust and said, "too bad, I have a '99 Intrigue with 99000 miles and it has been a joy. No problems." He mentioned he had looked at the Dodge Intrepid, but said it didn't measure up to his Intrigue. A Buick Regal is too soft, and he didn't care for the GP or Impala either. He seemed really bummed that a new Intrigue may not be in his future.

likeswheni

Just bought a 1999 Intrigue GLS a few weeks ago with the 3 month GM warranty. Within a few days I noticed what seemed to be something buckling or knocking around as if loose in what seemed to be the steering column, although I can also feel it in the break pedal. I just brought it to the dealer and they said they'd lube the intermediate steering shaft. I don't see how lubing something will stop whatever it is from moving around, but my question is, will the lube job just fix it long enough for the warranty to expire or is it a real repair? Thanks a lot.

one2one

That should fix it. What they used to do was replace the ISS. In some cases the problem never resurfaced but in most it came back (mine included). When the dealer returns the "failed" part they inspect it to find out what may have caused the failure. Apparently, with all the shafts they received, the one thing they must have found consistant is that the shafts were not sufficently lubed. Interestingly enough, I don't recall anyone here who got the shaft lubed having the problem return.

In fact, there are 2 TSBs that relate to this problem for your year:

01-02-32-001A NOV 01 Steering - Clunk Noise While Turning
00-03-06-001 APR 00 Steering/Suspension - Various Noises/Vibration

oldsman01

For the most part, it seems pretty accurate. When idling in traffic is does usually read a little warmer than the actual temperature is, but technically it probably is that hot on the pavement. The only time it is way off is if the car has been parked in the hot sun for several hours and the heat from the pavement and sun will make it read in excess of 100 degress. After driving for a minute or so it will begin to drop and will get to a more accurate reading pretty quickly. I'll have to look in the service manual again, but their is a specific time frame at which the display will show the temp when the engine was turned off and when it will show the actual temperature.

jg28

When I read the a/c full bulletin, it said something like in a few of the cars there wasn't enough of the new gas (not freon r12) in the coils and that the solution was charging it up with another additional pound. Even so, I wonder if the ac is because of the new gas that is required because of environmental concerns. The old was R12 or something like that? And they have a new one I think. Still, it seems like other newer cars seem colder.

likeswheni

Thanks one2one, thats a relief, I'll check those TSB's.

oldsman01

R-12 is the old refrigerant, it's trade name given by Dupont was freon. R-134a is the newer EPA approved ozone freindly stuff. It and R-22 which is used in home systems is often commonly referred to as freon. This has been debated time and time again, but I think R-12 does indeed cool better than the R-134a. My experience with older car A/C systems is they will cool the interior down quicker and the fan does not have to run at as high a speed.

craigcul

Likeswheni, One2one:
Appreciate the comments on lubing the shaft. My 99 developed the knocking at about 28k, and I took it in for warranty just before it expired, they changed the rack and lubed the shaft. So far, 2000 mi later, it is fine. I like the new rack better than the old one, steering seems less stiff, easier to keep it straight on the freeway.
Incidentally, re A/C, I drove through Redding, CA the other day when it was 111, the a/c seemed to be able to handle it fine. But after some heavy acceleration, the "service engine soon" light came on and will not go out. According to my Chilton book, this indicates a fault that is not temporary. I assume it might relate to the intense heat. I'm thinking of buying a scan tool to see what the fault is. Does anyone have any ideas or experience with this?

rjs200240

Well, it was a while ago, but I remember studying the thermo attributes of R-12 vs. R-134a and finding that R-12 is in fact a much better refrigerant. The switch to R-134a was because of environmental concerns and not because R-134a was supposed to be better. R-134a doesn't deplete the ozone layer like R-12 does...

I too have noticed that newer cars don't crank out the cold the way older cars did. I mean, my car cools me down fine, but it puts out lots of cool air as opposed to the older cars I've owned that put out really really cold air. R-134a systems need a bigger condenser to get the same performance, so a condenser of a certain size would cool more with R-12. I think that's why those older cars had such cool air. The condenser is usually about the size of the radiator, and is usually as big as it could be. So since older cars didn't have a small condensor, and new cars aren't any bigger, old cars would have the cooling advantage. That's just opinion, though.

I've wondered (although I have no intention of trying it) if a new car would have better A/C performance if the R-134a was removed and replaced with R-12.

oldsman01

I've read several reports that R-134a is not as efficient as R-12. Older RWD cars in which the radiator cooling fan was driven by the engine were considered problems when being converted to R-134a because if the engine was running at a slow speed(such as idling in traffic) there would not be enough airflow to move heat off the condenser. This was never really a problem with R-12 because it gave it's heat up much easier. Also, A/C components in cars have gotten smaller and lighter in the name of efficiency and packaging. I've noticed that trucks, SUVs, and large cars with R-134a still cool like the old days, it's smaller cars that just don't seem to have the capacity they used to. I go back to my old 89 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight touring sedan. It was dark red with a dark red leather interior and after sitting in the TN summer sun all day it was literally a blast furnace inside. I never tinted the windows or used one of those tacky accordian style windshield shades and I could get in the car, start it up and drive. With the climate control at about 68 it would blast frigid cold air for about twenty minutes and then the car would be cool enough that the system would switch to outside air and the blower would slow down. On my Intrigue, it takes much longer for the system to slow down after the car has sat in the sun and the air from the vents just doesn't seem as cool. However, the Intrigue's fan does blow like a hurricane when on high, something the old car did not do. Trouble with the hurricane fan is that it makes alot more noise when on higher settings.

oldsman01

Anybody use zaino products on their car? I've been looking at their website and they seem to have some good products but I've got a wax question. Zaino says theirs is a synthetic and not carnuba. Is one better than the other? Seems I read somewhere that carnuba is better because it is natural.

one2one

No prob :-)

When it comes to steering, I tend to like the stiffer feel my '98 had. It made aggressive driving incredibly fun. The trade-off was that it tended to feel a little heavy. My '01 has lighter steering but tends to make the car feel more like a "regular" car than the performance sedan Olds billed it as. But that's the beauty of individuality. I guess it all lies in what one is used to whether they like it light or not. Either way, it's still a fun car to drive.

racer_x_9

I've used Zaino since I first purchased my 1999 Intrigue and could not be happier with it.

Once you do the initial prep work (it's a polish with no abrasives so you need to really clean the car before the first coat) it's very easy to use.

Goes on and comes off far easier than wax. Lasts MUCH longer.

Also the owner (Sal) is very responsive when it comes to customer service. You can email him and get a response within an hour most of the time. He is happy to answer any questions you may have about his products.

You could probably find out everything you wanted to know in the Repair and Maintenance board. They have a long Zaino thread.

This is an old link but has usful FAQ stuff on it.

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/6021/zainofaq.html

jg28

I've sent off for some of their stuff and look forward to using it. I haven't given the customarily weekly wash to my Intrigue until I can wash it with Dawn and wax it with this new stuff. I hope I have as good an experience as you have racer. What of their products have you used? Have you used everything like the glass cleaner and tire cleaner? I'd be interested to find out.

TSchramm

I, too, had the steering "clunk" surface in my '98 at 68K miles (have 71K now). Dealer lubed it, and there hasn't been a problem since. They knew exactly what the problem was, and even asked if I wanted to wait, as it wouldn't take more than an hour and a half to fix. So I did, and they fixed it in just over an hour! $118 total, not bad, and that has been the only "non-standard" (tires, battery, wiper blades, brakes, etc.) repair this car has ever had.

No problems with the A/C either, and I live where it gets above 90 every day in the summer. It is annoyingly loud above the second fan position, though. But still nice and cold.

lmacmil

If you have an Autozone near you, they will scan the codes for free and tell you what they mean. I believe virtually all check engine codes are emissions related. The scanners are pretty pricey ($200 plus) so I'd look for a free alternative first.

swagled

I remember there have been a couple of posts here about Intrigues locking themselves unintentionally. (I've wondered if this might be a keyless remote frequency problem... if somebody/something in the neighborhood uses the same frequency, then.... BING!!)

Yesterday I had something odd happen while I was driving. The doors started locking, and re-locking, again and again every few seconds. I could hold the button in either the UNLOCK or LOCK position to "shut them up" but it would continue when I released the button.

I put the car into "P" at a light, then back into "D", and the problem went away.

Weird. Well, from now on, if I walk away from my Intrigue while it is idling, I will be sure to leave the door ajar. Just in case!

white6

Filling a system designed for R134a with R12 would create a danger as the R134a systems operate at higher pressures. This, along with larger condensors, allow these new systems to cool as good as the old systems; however, there are many factors involved in cooling your car's interior. Everything from the interior/exterior color to window area to vent location and size affect how quickly the car cools down. The vent outlet air temperature spec has not changed, as far as I know, with the switch from R12 to R134a. The air coming from the vent should be about 45 degrees F, regardless of medium used in the system.
Here's a tip for Intrigue owners with the passenger compartment air filter... change that puppy! I let mine go two years; pulled it out the other evening and, wow, I can't believe any air was flowing through at all! Dirt literally poured out of the filter element. I can well imagine that this would have a significant effect on cooling down a hot car as the air can't enter the ventilation system with this much restriction.
I have Zaino on all three of my vehicles. It is most appreciated on black or very dark colored paint. My black Intrigue is like a mirror (when it's clean). You can actually see vivid colors in the reflection in the paint. The stuff is pretty darn good.....

ab348

R134 is a markedly inferior refrigerant to R12 in many ways, not just cooling capacity. The old R12 systems would put out outlet temps in the mid to high 30s all day long. I haven't seen a R134 system come close to doing that. Interesting point about R12 and ozone depletion is that there is now some body of evidence that it makes no difference anyway. If it did, we could all be in big trouble because I read in a magazine recently that the WTC collapse caused some massive quantity of R12 to vent into the atmosphere (I want to say several hundred thousand tons, but I may be mistaken since I don't have the article here - it may be that many pounds).

oldsman01

According to the service manual, the Intrigue's A/C output temperature is never anywhere near as low as 45 degrees. Even in cool low hunidity weather. I'll have to post the specs sometime. I'd love to see what the A/C output specs were on my 89 Olds.

ab348, I'm no tree hugger, but am pretty convinced with what I've studied that CFC-12(R-12) does have serious ozone depleting potential. It's depletion factor is about 100 times greater than that of R-22 which is used in home systems. Couple that with the fact that auto A/C systems are the single largest source of it being vented into the atmosphere. As for the WTC collapse, this sent many contaminants into the air and atmosphere. However, the only R-12 would have been from small portable refrigeration systems like refrigerators, water fountains, and coke machines. The A/C system used in the building would have used a commercial type refrigerant such as R-502 or possibly even ammonia. Halon fire supression systems used in computer labs also used to use "halon" which is very similar to R-12 in make-up and in ozone depleting potential.

likeswheni

Not the most exciting issue, but does anyone have an opinion on buying an extended warranty plan? My Intrigue has two months left on the GM certified used warranty. so far I've had a few things fixed, and my car seems to have a number of the common Intrigue problems (brake rotors, steering shaft, etc). A 2 year warranty is about 1200 or more, depending on the deductible, and I'm leaning towards it. But then, I'd hate to pay the 1200 and only encounter $300 of repairs in 2 years.
By the way, does the lumbar support on the driver seat (leather) hurt anyone else's back? The lower portrusion is a lot more severe than I thought at first. Guess I'll get a pad or something.
Nevertheless, I do love my new car.

yurakm

Aftermarket extended warranties are substantially less expensive.

In summer 2000 I bought a warranty for my 98 Malibu build in summer 97. Valid till year 2006 or 100k miles. Zero deductible, bumper to bumper. Paid $1204.

The company name is Warranty Gold. Found them on Internet, by link from Edmunds, and paid by credit card by phone. There is a lot of other warranty companies. The are discussed here: /direct/view/.ee9203c

Any case, no extended warranty cover brake rotors. Nor struts, pads, etc. They are considered maintenance items. I doubt also about ISS lube.

redline65

I've got a Warranty Gold contract, and it says they cover Macpherson struts. But when my dealer called them to get the OK on replacing a bad strut they told my dealer that they don't cover struts. Better watch out with them, you will probably have less hassles buying the extended warranty from the dealer.

craigcul

Imacmil:
Thanks for that advice on Autozone. I checked up and found one about 50 mi. from here. But meanwhile, the service engine light went out after about the third day. I think it was a heat-related problem and it might have corrected itself. I read somewhere on the web that some of these warnings are programmed to stop lighting the light after a certain number of engine startups. I didn't realize the OBDII scanners were so expensive, cheapest one I have seen so far is $150. Next time I will take it to Autozone.
One2one: on those steering shaft TSBs, are they accessible on the Web?

rjs200240

What about all the R-12 from the old cars in the WTC garage?

oldsman01

Seems Olds/GM and the big 3 aren't the only ones heavily discounting cars right now. Was looking through the classifieds section in the paper and noticed that Nissan is discounting Maximas $5000 and Altimas $2500. They are also running low rate financing. Toyota is offering $3500 off Avalons, $3000 off V6 Camrys and $2000 off 4 cylinder Camrys. Even Lexus is offering a 4.9% APR on the RX300. But the kicker was Mazda. $9000 off Millenia. The example had a Millenia listing for $29K and selling for $20K or leasing for $299 a month with little down. Now the Millenia wouldn't be my first choice in a luxury or "near luxury" sedan, but at $20K it's a pretty darn nice car. Local Olds dealer(not the one I bought from) has just taken over an aging stand alone Buick dealer in the area so their advetising is going toward Buicks and GMCs. Not one mention of Olds in their ads, but we all know that they too are offering 0% APR for 60 months or $3000 rebate.

dindak

Anyone here have a power washer and if so what type (gas / electric) and brand? I got a Karcher 1400 psi electric as a gift, but I'm wondering if I should trade it in for a gas model or another brand? Any comments would be much appreciated.

---------------

oldsman : Deals are good all over. Up here, 0% for 48 months on almost every 02 GM vehicle. We did about the same on our Alero purchase, but we had a coupon from the Auto Show.

jpnmass

For some reason I never thought my Intrigue had that passenger air filter. Somehow I lost my sticker from when I bought the car. Anyway, today I decided to take a look. Sure enough I followed the instructions and to my surprise there was a very blackened filter in there. I have a 98 with 75,731 miles on and just changed this thing!! Oh well, live and learn. Found the filter at Aid Auto Store and paid 19.99 for it. Sounded a little pricey, but it was the third store I had been to and the first to have it. Took 10-15 minutes, not nearly as long as I thought when I first started reading the instructions.

Car just turned 4 years old (drove it home on 7/11/98). Build date of 5/98. Still loving it. Especially since May 7 when we bought an 02 Olds Silhouette that my wife now drives. That leaves the Intrigue for me. Didn't spring for an extended warranty and so far I am glad. The power windows went at about 68K and that cost about $175 if I remember correctly. That's it so far.

beach15

Zaino is one of, if not the best product to protect and beautify your car's paint. Here's the deal about synthetics vs. carnuba.

Carnuba is a natural wax that usually goes on and comes off easy, produces a terrific look, and protects somewhat. But, because it's a wax, it melts in the sun and easily wears off the surface, as it starts to melt at 180 degrees. Most likely, it's not best for winter time in snowy areas, as it wouldn't protect too long.

Zaino, on the other hand, is a synthetic. Much like synthetic oil, it's formulated to offer the best of all worlds. Goes on and comes off easy, produces an unbeatable shine, protects for many months on end, and doesn't react to temperature changes. Many still prefer the carnuba "look", but Zaino and other synthetics like Klasse, Platinum, Blackfire, etc., offer a lot more protection, great durbaility, and a terrific look.

If you have black and the paint has some swirls, I'd most recommend getting some Z-5, for swirls and scratches, usually rather minor ones. If they're worse, it's best to have them electrically buffed and then Dawn wash the paint before Zaino.

moonshadow

sounds like your park/drive switch is sticking.

It is used to unlock in park and lock in drive, depending on how your car is programed.

The fact that the prob. went away when you cycled your gear shift is good sign. Also holding the lock/unlock button should override this switch and this is what you did.

This switch is located under the shift lever. Maybe a faulty/intermittent switch, loose or bad plug contact, pinched wire or the mechanism needs a quick lube spray.

If it persists,you can first try programing the door locks to do nothing when shifting in and out of park, and this should override the switch, contacts bouncing etc.. If the gremlins occur with this setup it may be a module or wiring harness to the module. However, that is the worst case scenario, it is my Experience in elelectronic servicing over 20 years is KISS( Keep It Simple Stupid). No offence.

In electronics and computers, the simplest problem can cause devesating and misleading symptoms

what year is your car. If your car is under warranty, then the dealer may help. However most intermittants get the usual can not duplicate, unless they have had the problem with someone else or if there is a tech. bulletin. Good luck and keep us all up to date

one2one

Follow this link: http://www.alldata.com/recalls/index.html

From here, you will be able to search for your year Intrigue (or any other car built that year) and see all the TSBs for your car.

Keep in mind that you will see a ton of TSBs. This doesn't mean that your car is a lemon; simply that if you have one of the problems, there is a documented fix for it. There are things they have in there like references to tools technicians use that the average driver knows nothing about and wouldn't change anything if they did.

lrush

I have a '99 GLS with automatic HVAC controls. With the AC on my car is now blowing normal cold air out of the passenger side vents and warm out of the driver side vents. I know this car has adjustments for altering the passenger side temperature but this is not the problem. No matter what temperature setting with auto or manual settings the temperature is warmer on the passenger side. I suspect there is some type of air diverter that directs the air over the AC or a heater core. I find it odd that there would be that much of temperature difference and adjusting the passenger controls does not appear to change the temperature. Anyone out there have any ideas before taking it to the dealer?

swagled

Haven't had it repeat... I'm assuming it's just one of those rare flaky things. But I'm still not gonna shut the door anymore while the car is idling and I walk away, just in case! ;-)

I agree about "Keep it Simple". Gizmo electric locks are a cool thing, but I could live without, if I had to reprogram them to stay off. Every previous car I've driven didn't have them.

In other things, now that I've seen a couple of CTS Caddys on the road, I've made up my mind... that... the car is NOT attractive, and I couldn't get used to it!

The headlights are kinda cool looking, and I don't mind the angular lines. But that high side beltline, thick grille, slab-sided rear, just make the car look ungainly from every angle.

CTS seems to be selling well, but I think people are buying it "despite" the way it looks.

vcjumper

I'm still not sold on the CTS styling either. Its not classically handsome like a 3-series coupe or the new E-Series, thats for sure. To me there is just appears to be too much sheet metal above the wheel wells. Does drive very well though.

I'm a sucker for the "innie" type wheels on the current 5 series w/sport package. They just fit the wheel wells so well.

oldsman01

To borrow from an old Infiniti tag line; "drive one and you'll understand." If you guys think your Intrigues handles the road well, your in for a treat with the CTS. Smooth Caddy ride with BMW like roadholding ability.

winter9

My wife's 99 GL, 46k mi. 3.8L, experienced it's first (major?) problem. When attempting to start it, it turns over about 1/4 turn and stops. Thinking it could possibly be a dead battery, I tried jumping it and got the same results. I remember reading a number of posts about crankshaft sensors and my next thought was that could be the culprit. For those of you that have had the no-start condition, has it been the crank sensor? If memory serves me well, there was another sensor that could cause a no-start.
Would an Autozone be able to diagnose this for no charge? Is the repair job fairly straight-forward so I could do it myself? If not, would I be better off taking it in to my dealer or go private?
Thanks much.

00zx3

Disclaimer: I'm not a mechanic. A bad crankshaft position sensor shouldn't prevent a car from turning over. I would start with the cheapest/easiest check by removing the battery and taking it to Autozone to test. You also might want to do a quick check to make sure the battery terminals are clean and the cables are making good contact.

fgriff1

Hello,
I have a 00 GLS that lately has been hard to start. Sometimes it kicks over only to stall a few seconds later. Other times it seems to struggle to start. But must times it starts right away. I took it to the dealer, and after a day of "Diagnostic" tested I got the famous " could not duplicate". They said no codes in history. Any ideas? Could the starter be going bad?
Thanks
Frank

dindak

Love the styling and I think that is a big selling point. People are getting tired of the 3-series look and it's far too common. Good looking yes, interesting.. not. Assuming all goes well with the career, the CTS is a good candidate for my next sedan in a few years.

fgriff1

Hello,
I have a 00 GLS that lately has been hard to start. Sometimes it kicks over only to stall a few seconds later. Other times it seems to struggle to start. But must times it starts right away. I took it to the dealer, and after a day of "Diagnostic" tested I got the famous " could not duplicate". They said no codes in history. Any ideas? Could the starter be going bad?
Thanks
Frank

b4z

Its one of your crankshaft sensors.

racer_x_9

Zainoed the Intrigue this weekend.
Daily driver approaching its 4th birthday

fgriff1

B4z,
Yeah I told them that. dealer claimed a "code" would have shown up if that was it. I'm going to bring it back if it continues in the next week.

ab348

I don't care how well the CTS drives, I couldn't stand seeing that thing in my driveway every day, much less being seen behind the wheel. Not a good design.

I spent some time at an Olds dealer this week just for interest's sake (where they also carry Cad; a black CTS demo was running around and did nothing for me). They had a white GLS parked out front, a very nice car in a very dull color. A perky young sales rep appeared (daughter of the dealership owner) who really knew the product and who I enjoyed talking to. I told her if she could locate an Indigo blue GL with neutral interior I might be interested.

Off she went to search. When she returned some time later she apologized, saying that there were no neutrals in the entire region (damn gray interiors!!!) except for one in Sandstone metallic. She had worked up some lease prices. $511/mo on a 48 mo. term, or (get this) $811/mo on a 24! That even includes my $2600 in GM Card money too! There is just no residual being offered; she said they were using 35%. OTOH, there are $4200 in incentives being offered on a purchase right now. No sale obviously.

I told her I might be back to look at a Silverado when they have some incentives on those. She said that it is being restyled next year to look more like the Avalanche. I winced. After I got home I saw a picture of it on the net though, and it is not so bad. Doesn't look nearly as bad as I thought it might based on her comment.