Oldsmobile Intrigue

yurakm

Looks like SLP simply have the part on sale currently, "weekly specials":

http://www.slponline.com/ws.asp

the same discount for 2000-2001 MC SS exhaust, and for some of GP ones.

dionesis

My apologies to anyone I may have offended with my reference to crack pipes - I guess I came off pretty strong. But it seems that a LOT of the problems experienced by owners of the Intrigue are coming from the 98-99 model years. Aren't those the 1st and 2nd years of production for this model? Perhaps the quality control wasn't quite up to snuff at that time.

1415: As far as resale value is concerned, I've already endured the "stress" when I tried to trade in a 98 Chrysler Sebring LXi on my Intrigue - loan payoff was $12K, trade-in off from the dealer was $8.5K. Sale to a private individual was the only thing that saved me. I figure that the Intrigue will probably be about the same in a year or 2. Such is life...

ketch: I agree - i think that the 2001's were constructed with more stringent Quality Control. Perhaps that was in response to the phase out announcement and subsequent 5/60 offer - who knows?

etharmon: Sorry to tell ya this buddy, but my new 2001 is Midnight Blue, neutral leather, PCS, sunroof, etc. The only options no on her are the Gold pkg., engine block heater, and the Bose stereo system (you can get MUCH better sound with aftermarket equipment for the same or less price than the Bose). You will love this car when you get it - the Mid. blue is just plain beautiful...

dionesis

By the way.....for those people having problems with rough ride when their tires start wearing out - I thought that I read that they were having difficulty finding tires that would fit. Something about Eagle LS(?) tires.....

Anyway, my new Intrigue came with Eagle RSA's. I have had previous vehicles that have been shod with the RSA's and never noticed any problems when they aged. Try the RSA's...they are a pretty good tire for the money.

merckx

The 2000Intrigue you saw for$13900-any demo miles on car? Freight extra? "documentation" fee extra? (typically fine print at bottom of ad). I'm looking at a base car,1000 miles on odo-good offer?

b4z

Sorry, but i should have made it clear that these were used cars. I think they had between 12-18,000 miles.
It was a post referring to resale value.

dindak

They are probably rental cars. Those are what help sink re-sale on Intrigues,

ickes

I agree w/ jg28's comment that GM could consider dropping all their divisions as the brand name is nothing more than badge engineering. These are GM cars and trucks not Chevy, Buick or GMC. Its funny, but Honda and Toyota do not seem dependent upon this brand management strategy. In fact, Honda is rather open about the relation between the two product lines. All they do is sell quality product.

Almost all the columnists in the April edition of Car and Driver have devoted their space to the demise of Olds including noting the Intrigue as GM's best car. At this point, I find myself agreeing most with the position of Pat Bedard (scary thought!) who suggests that Olds termination is not due to poor management, bad advertising or other excuses, but emarassingly poor product citing recent experience with 2001 V-6 and V-8 Auroras.

dindak

I've said it before and I'll say it again, that was one man's experience and opinion. Check the Aurora forum and 2001 owners seem happy with their cars. Most reviews of the car I have seen are quite positive on Aurora. Carguide Magazine just wrapped up a L/T test of Aurora and praised it to no end.

I don't agree with ridding GM of brands. Slimming down might be a better idea. Oldsmobile is gone and I think they should get rid of GMC also. There is a lot of heritage to GMs brands and people will simply not buy a GM Seville. They want a Cadillac!

1415

The Aurora looks are not what I would call a winner; its rear end is stubby and for the 4.0 pricing is high.. There is nothing about the car that spells performance or even comes close to a handling option. Its a committee designed car; packaged to facilitate production and inventory side of the assembly cycle. Even a turnpike pkg would be a welcome sight. The PCS doesn't tickle alot of auto buffs.

It competes in a very crowded arena and is thoroughly out classed by both domestic and foreign models.

To be truthful; the original Aurora survived only from the crossover Cadillac traffic and the redesign has no appeal to that segment because it doesn't look like money!!!!!

Spent some time in the lobby this am. waiting for a supplier meeting and I noticed in the Automotive News that during Feb 01 the total Intrigue build was 1729 units.. I didn't say sales, I said total units built. No wonder there are none on dealer lots. According to the Auto Site there were 5,215 sold last month.

I have a fresh new Aurora waiting at the dealer but I decided as stated before; I have spent enough time and lost enough money on the Olds auto line. Actually I have made out quite well on two Intrigues; so why fall in the sewer with a $38k Aurora even though it can be bought for $32k incl. tax. It's still an immediate $5K+ loss once you take possession. I never ask the Olds dealer whether they wanted the Intrigue trade-in!!!

ketch

Thinks thats nice? Try 96 in second gear no less. And yes, what a sound! The big guy upstairs must love cars, Intrigue esp.

delrick

Have been getting the bug for a new Olds. Driving them for years and now that they are really emerging as exceptional vehicles, GM kills the division.

Anyway, thinking of trading the '99 Intrigue in on a loaded GLS as my Olds swan song.

Great warranty and great incentives......bleep....wrong!

Ya gotta look at that cash invcentive fine print. Here's why.

If you read real close it winds up by saying that if you get any GMAC special financing, no cash.

No problem. I lease. Nothing special about that..wrong again, Shortstar breath....

You see, banks will no longer provide a reasonable lease for any Oldsmobile product. For some reason, they are somewhat leery of commiting to a residual that will result in realistic payments. You know, since the manufacturer is abandoning the model and all.

So the upshoy is if you want an Olds product and you want to lease, you can. But the only lease you will find acceptable is thru GMAC and you will not see the national cash incentives.

I kinda was thinking about looking at the Passat anyway.

j_coleman

delrick: good point about leasing Oldsmobiles now. Never thought of that, but it makes sense. Are you sure you want to move to a small car like the Passat?

dindak

delrick : I'd rather deal with GMAC any day. Better than any bank I've dealt with. Passat is not any more reliable (likely less) and the warranty on VWs is terrible.

vcjumper

Have you checked how much it would cost to buy a warranty extension to 3yrs/36,000M bumper-to-bumper on the Passat? I'm curious if they offer that at a reasonable cost. I like the minor changes they are bringing out with the refreshed Passat.

Have you gone as far as checking how much they would give you in trade for your 99?

delrick

I just discovered the unusually short (2 year) VW warranty. Need to evaluate that. Saw the Passat write-up in the annual car report by CR. The appeal is in the reported driveability.

Re: dealing with GMAC. Have been doing it for years.

You miss my drift. I resent the bait and switch of Olds. They promote the $2000. national cash back. Sorta offsets the uncertainty of buying a car that THEY are retiring.

Now they say no way will we give you a lease on a car WE are destroying and the cash.

It's one or the other, and I am in the process of watching the value of my 2000 Bravada dissolve down the drain as we speak.

Buying Olds at this time is not a proposition that should be done with out a lot of thought.

You may be buried in your vehicles. Big time.

(But you have a long warranty)

j_coleman

Speaking of Bravadas, a dealer here is advertising new 2001 models for $25K. This price includes $3000 GM rebate, $3000 dealer discount, and $1500 Olds loyalty certificate if I remember correctly. What a deal!!

1415

delrick:::::::There are two ways to obtain a car:
rent one (lease, more sophicated), or buy one. GM has low cost leasing for the piece of crap comes back to them in the end; so they are going to take the rap. Why should you care about whether the car is to be phased out????

Now a buyer knows the car is being phased out so GM sweetens the deal so they can wash their hands of the car and they pay us up front for the risk of less value at the end; the end could be anytime in the future.

You expect to be paid to exercise a low rate lease.. You only get the cake; your lease is no risk to you..You are just a renter--GM takes the risk!!!!

b4z

Don't quite understand why you think it is a bait and switch. You have a '99 just like i do. You get the $1500 loyalty rebate. Take the $2000 on the purchase and offer invoice for the car.
That means you can get a $25,500 GL for 20,000.
Seems like a pretty good deal to me.
The only thing you have to worry about is resale. If you keep the car a long time it is not an issue.

b4z

I have the 3.29 gear which one do you have? I ran mine up to 104 in a new subdivision last month. I think it held second to about 90 mph. I was too busy holding on to look.
This car pulls like a freight train at 100 mph. Much more so than my camaro.

htwired

I have lived my entire 49 years plus in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and witnessed the painful demise of Allis Chalmers, where 12,000 lost their jobs. I majored in Finance and Economics and am a true capitalist, but it unnerves me when management makes obscene $$ running a corporation into the ground. Ultimately its the little guy who looses his job that suffers. GM is killing Oldsmobile and with it the Intrigue. Even most of the Intrigue critics agree that the GM 4 speed automatic transmission coupled with the 3.5l shortstar was an exceptional combination. If GM kills the shortstar along with Oldsmobile it screams volumes as to GM's continued mismangement. Will GM ever recover from the effects of Roger Smith. I wish car guys (and gals) ran car companies rather than accountants.

dindak

delrick : I'm lost.. I don't understand your bait and switch comment. Just lease it.. and the car is not your problem at the end, plain and simple.

Basically there are some great deals out there on Oldsmobiles. If you want the car short term lease it, if you want to hold on.. buy it. It's no different for any other car. Sure Oldsmobile re-sales aren't the best, but they aren't the worst either. If your primary concern is re-sale, buy a Honda and blend in with the accountant population.

mar1997

Hello all! I own a 2000 Intrigue with 5600 miles on it. I have been having brake problems since about 1800 miles. Could those of you with the 2000 Intrigue be kind enough to offer some input as to what brake problems you have had, if any, and what GM has done to remedy the problem. My rear brakes seem to be slipping, or not gripping the rotor/tire firmly enough to allow me to stop correctly. I know its not just ABS, since I own and have owned other cars with ABS. The dealer here in unwilling to help. Thanks a bunch for any input you can offer!!!

etharmon

Come on guys, lets get some good Intrigue talk going again! I know they are going away and GM is making some dumb assed decisions, but that doesn't detract the Intrigue from being a great driving car. I'm still seriously considering one to replace my 98 when the lease is up this summer. I will buy because frankly, the purchase incentives and deals are better than the lease deals which wasn't the case in 1998. And I have a decent down payment as well. The 5 year 60,000 mile warranty is also a factor. Where else can one get a well equipped, great looking, and fun to drive car priced in the mid 20s with a long warranty and financed at a very low rate? It's either a brand new loaded Intrigue or a 2-3 year old Aurora or Cadillac. And with the warranty and finance deals, I'm leaning toward the new Intrigue. As much as I love luxury, the idea of having a car covered under warranty for nearly the entire time I'm paying on it, sure is an attractive idea. Especially if the interest rate is 0.9%. Word to Olds, want to sell an Intrigue? Offer 0.9% for 60 months again and it's pretty much a done deal. Just make mine a Midnight blue GLS with the Precision Control package. Even at 3.9 for 60 months it a decent deal, although I'm going to hold out for 0.9 later in the year. Either way, you come out ahead much more than with a typical 7.9% rate on a 60 month loan. A local Honda dealer was boasting 3.9% for 36 months on 4 cylinder Accords only. I'm not sure why they were boasting, thats nothing special. Heck, an Intrigue with a "real" engine can be had for 36 months at 0.9%. I'd hate to see what the "special" rates on a V6 Accord are.

limadelta

Hello fellow 2000 Intrigue owners.
My 2000 GLS just turned 14,500 miles today and I put 1500 miles on it in less than a week. To date the only reason that the dealer has seen my car is for the new alternator. NO brake problems and I should know about brake problems with an Intrigue since I owned a '98 Autobahn version.

This midnight blue GLS is averaging between 28 to 30 mpg and I usually set the cruise between 70-80 mph. I'd love to get another one because the 3.5 engine likes going fast and sounds great when you put your foot in it.

The dealer that mar1997 is going through may not have a clue about what to look for. Is there another 'competent' dealer out there you can go to. The Intrigue is a great car that deserves better from GM and maybe the dealers are just tired of dealing with an idiot manufacturer.

My local dealer's GM told me that the General was offering him a whopping $.18 on the dollar for his dealership. If that is GM's attitude, you can imagine what the dealer must feel like.

1415

Hope you have another dealer nearby because the rear brakes on the two Intrigues Ive owned were replaced along with the pads.. They were noisy and squeaky, suffering the worst if the car was left outside overnight.

There has to be a Technical Service Bulletin..My lastest model is a 99 with a build date of 4/99. I have had probably more brake problems than most owners on this forum so this posting will bring on some comments; but you asked so I telling you not to let the dealer off the hook.

The brakes and the rattling struts are the Intrigues signature items.

etharmon:::::::I really don't think you will see the low-ball lease rates on Intrigues because GM doesn't want to get caught getting Intrigues back off lease three years after they stop making the car..

teo:::::::::The Impala has overtaken the LeSabre as the mainstay for retirees. In the latest issue of AARP mag."Modern Maturity" the Impala has the inside cover pages and GM is offering an additional $500 for the AARPers.. Isn't that nice of the General!!!!

dindak

mar1997 : No brake problems on my 2000. Not a squeak. Talk it to another dealer if your's won't help you out and you think something is wrong.

1415 : Look out below. The markets are going to TANK today. Limit down on S&P and Nasdaq
futures. Scary!

b4z

If your brakes are making a growling or gurgling sound, there was TSB to fix that. Not sure what you mean by slipping, the rear brakes only do about 12% of the stopping. It is mostly the front brakes that stop the car. If you are having a vibration then the rotors are warped. Ask for new rotors in that case.

b4z

It is depressing. I too am seriously considering a 2002 GL. 1415 reported that only 1700 Intrigues were built last month. If that keeps up there may not even be any 2002's. So do i wait and see if they will be built, or do i buy now and order one?
Pickings are slim on the lots here in SC. I understand inventory is better up north.
Our options are getting smaller by the day.
Let's hope the General will give the go ahead for 2002. A lot can happen over the summer.
Have a completely depressed you now?

mar1997

I wish we could take it to another dealership, but the nearest one is a two hour drive from where we live. Unfortunately, the brakes are not the only problem we have been having. The car seems to guzzle oil. Last week, just 1500 miles since my last oil change, my oil light came on and I was two quarts low. This caught me off guard since it is a NEW car and I called the dealer. His reply was "GM allows its vehicles to use 1 quart of oil every 900-1000 miles, no need to worry, just add a couple of quarts to top it off." Now, I am a woman and I don't claim to know much about cars, but this seemed like a galactically stupid reply and when I pushed him for more details, he told me there was nothing he could do. We are also having problems with a rattle in the front, driver's side of the car, the car will stall when shifted from reverse to drive, the alternator is going bad because my dash lights and blower almost quit when I accelerate . . . did I mention it only has 5600 miles on it. I know there is a TSB on the alternator, but LAWLEY (the dealership) refuses to even check the alternator since it has "nothing" to do with the dash lights or blower's ability to function properly. Every time I try to get a problem fixed, I am told that Oldsmobile "designed the car to perform that way." I must admit, though this car has more problems than it should, it does have pretty good acceleration . . . .the only plus side to this car that I can find.

b4z

Call Oldsmobile Customer Assistance and they will start a file number on your car. They will also call your service manager while you are on the phone with them. They are clearly taking advantage of you. Push them until your car is fixed or they have bought it back from you.
2 quarts in 1500 miles. No way!

white6

Look in your owners manual, find the number for Oldsmobile, and call it NOW. Your dealer is absolutely worthless. The problems you are describing are DEFECTS in parts or manufacturing. This is what a warranty is for. You state the engine used 2 quarts of oil in 1500 miles. I'm no math wiz, but that is in excess of 1 quart every 900-1000 miles. If you go back through this thread, you will find a poor soul that had an oil consumption problem similar to yours; they eventually replaced his entire engine. There is a TSB on the alternator; the symptoms of which you describe perfectly. Call Oldsmobile and ask them to educate your dealership service manager.

vcjumper

One possibility is they shortchanged you on oil on your last change, the Intrigue motor takes a quart more than most 6 cylinders. Another reason to go to a different dealer if possible.

dindak

My guess is you got shortchanged at your last oil change also. 3.5L would not burn that much.

1415

Do what b4z said to do; call Customer Assistance and get the file started. They will call the service manager; but don't give them an inch for I have been down the path.. Your dealer is a joke and their service people are a disgrace.

They can fix the alternator and the brakes; but the front end noise you will get stonewalled on.

The oil consumption is high for a 3.5; for my experience is a qt./1500.. I am at 38kmiles and it is driven fast; but not abused!!! Check it after the next oil change to make sure it's full.
Also check where you park it to see if there are any puddles of oil..

What other car line does this dealer handle????

j_coleman

Front end noise on driver's side might be the intermediate steering shaft. Replacement cleared up the racket for me. Stalling problem could be the crankshaft sensor, has your "Service Engine Soon" light come on?

1415

After 1094 miles it is almost full; maybe they overfilled it????

It's difficult to be happy; so let's say by 2,000 miles the oil is tired and will be down 1qt..

Took a little 300 mile jaunt today through the Michigan thumb area for a business meeting and found gas priced at $1.25/gal.; and I am sure by June they will find a way to get back to $1.50..

Couldn't resist the low price so stopped--25.45mpgs; excellent the way I drive..All country two lane roads today with lots of chuck holes and forced to run over the 55mph limit.

Got to get the house in shape for the other half comes back from Flordia tomorrow..Why did I ever sell the condo; for I didn't realize how good life was for 4 months/yr..

tpken

1415 - That's a terrific price for gas. Our cheapest is $1.32 at BJs wholesale club but most are around $1.45 for regular.

Why'd you give up your 4 months of peace and quiet? Got to love those tranquil periods that make the heart grow fonder!

Ken

pat

I would like to ask you folks a question....

Would you be interested in having your own space in our Owner's Club section?

What this means is that you would have your own space to have multiple discussions related to your Intrigues. This discussion would be part of it (yet remain here on the Sedans Board), and you will also eventually have the opportunity to have scheduled owners' chats.

Take a look at this link to see what is there already: Owner's Clubs. This will give you an idea of the possibilities.

Let me know what you think. If you are interested, I'll ask KarenS, the Owner's Clubs host, to set up your own Club for you.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

oscarz2

Alternator came in finally and was replaced today. Paperwork says:
CHECK HEADLIGHTS WILL FLICKER SPECIAL ORDERED PART IN FOUND INTERNAL DAMAGE TO ALTERNATOR REPLACE ALTERNATOR
QTY: FP-NUMBER: DESCRIPTION:
1 10464395 GENER REM 2.275
1 10464395 CORE RETURN
1 12346290 COOLANT 8.800

I was surprised at the part number because someone earlier said their new alternator was part number 10464469 (I assume the newer one).

So, I called the parts dept to inquire about the difference between the two. He looked it up and said it appears that the 10464469 is for the newer model Intrigues. Is this correct? I have a 99. Do any 99 owners have a 10464469? I thought I was supposed to get a redesigned alternator. I'm confused here. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if the lights flicker on a cold night with the heater on.

dindak

Sounds good to me!

mar1997

We have actually initiated a complaint with Oldsmobile and they have schedule us for arbitration on the 28th of this month since the dealer refuses to service the car. Have any of you been through this process to try to get GM to buy back your vehicle when they refuse to service it correctly??

mar1997

The sad thing about this dealership that I am dealing with, they sell Nissan, all GM products, Honda, Hyundai, everything but Ford and Chrysler. It's a small town and he is his own little monopoly.

etharmon

The low rates I am hoping for are finance, not lease rates. I don't plan to lease again, unless I'm getting a new Cadillac or something like that. So, with the place in Florida sold, does that mean your stuck in MI in winters now? Bummer. Although, I'm sure you could volunteer to help count dimples in FL as I believe that is STILL going on in some places.

mar1997, your dealer is full of BS. The altenator has everything to do with the dash lights and the blower's ability to function as it generates the juice they run on!! Think of the California power crisis. What happens when the grid gets overloaded during peak times and there is not enough power? Brownouts and blackouts. Well, if the alternator is not working right, then it is not generating enough power to run things like the blower, thus it will slow down and the lights will get dim when the current level drops. That is sad your dealer has such a bad service department. According to many here, there is a problem and a TSB on alternators of some Intrigues and there is a replacement. As for that rattle you hear, is it right after the car is first started? If so, it may be the ABS system doing a self test.

dindak

I used to live in a small town and it's hard when the local dealer yields monopoly type power. Perhaps it's worth a day trip to the next town though as I'm sure you want your brakes fixed right.

white6

My Intrigue had the alternator replaced with the 10464469 and it is a '99 GL 3.5... sounds like one of us got shafted. So far, I've heard no complaints from the better half, but the old-design replacement worked for about 6 weeks before flickering reappeared. It has now been about that long since the "correct" replacement; we'll see how it goes.

1415

Its a shame you have to go through the arbitration
process just to get the dealer to do simple warranty work.. I have always found Olds dealers more than happy to perform warranty covered by TSBs.

I cancelled an arbitration date on my 99 due to conflict scheduling and mainly its not my choice of settlement.. You have a dealer that refuses to do anything so it sounds like they are trying to send a message to GM; for they probably don't like the settlement terms of the Olds phase-out..

Personally, I think the Olds dealers are sick and tired of the Intrigue; many having been burned by the factory disallowing warranty claims with the dealers picking up the bill..

The dealer will only do what the factory tells them to replace; so maybe thats the game..

You want to impress the arbitrator/panel that in your case; the dealer will do nothing, so how will you ever get the simplest thing fixed if the dealer is totally wacked ????

I had a 98 GLS once and GM got it back after 26k miles. Took the check and bought a 99 GLS so I have experienced problems in duplicate and triplicate manner.

Neither car had an engine problem 3.8 or 3.5
; but the crankshaft sensor is common on the 3.5 and the alternator is a known weaky. I haven't used the rear window defroster and the engine has not suffered the stalling bit.

The front end rattling/ banging over small bumps at low speeds is bad problem and the factory will stonewall for they don't have fix due to the strut design so its easy to tell us "We designed it that way; nature of the beast". I am cancelling my extended warranty since there is no TSB to cover, and they will not replace under a warranty claim. I will buy an aftermarket strut.

Make Olds throw in a 100k mile warranty "0" ded for its a easy/cheap way out for them. Your car is not a "Lemon" quite yet for they haven't fixed anything. They will tell you these are simple fixable warranty repairs so don't worry; let them assure you that they are now on your side.

Your problem is the dealer!!!!!!

Did you buy or lease?????

oscarz2

My paperwork says "internal damage found in alternator". Was that the case with yours, or did they just replace it? What did the paperwork say the second time around? I can't find a TSB regarding this (not to say there isn't one).

I assumed that all replacements would be via #10464469. I really don't care as long as it works but I'm wondering if GM is just trying to deplete inventory of #10464395 despite known problems. I mean, why was the alternator redesigned to begin with?

1415

That assumption is real life; they use the parts in the pipeline and it doesn't matter if it isn't the latest change. Nothing is scrapped; it is installed and if there is a later revision you will get that if you have trouble again or just complain loud..

They are called running changes.. I've been down that path before; the latest with the old 98 Intrigue when the steering gear was replaced twice within a couple thousand miles. It also went through a intermediate shaft.

teo

I spent the last few days up in Washington D.C. for business....saw lots of Impalas. Most of the "Upgrade" Impala LS models were driven by the U.S. Secret service and the "base" models were Taxi cabs with "Police Package" upgrades...cars are holding pretty well for what I have been told.....And yes, there was one Impala "Base" sedan parked in front of the AARP building...I guess the retirees like the *zest* of the 3800 V6 engine...

Wanted to catch a glimpse of Bush or Alan Greenspan, but I guess they were hidding somewhere in the White House.....

Oh, by the way, I just saw a handful of Intrigues with Virginia and Maryland plates....

When I came back from my trip, I received an invitation from GM for their "GM AutoShow In Motion" test drive event. Basically this is a test drive event where you can drive every new GM car and truck your heart desires for as long as you want on a closed circuit test track....should be mighty fun!!!!!

They will also have new cars from competitors so you can compare them against the new GM models.

Free food the whole entire day and also the Brand Managers for each GM model line will be present as well as the engineers....I plan to have a good long chat with some of these people.

I plan to drive most every Cadillac, Corvette, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe, Pontiac Bonneville SSE-i, Buick Regal GS, Buick Park Avenue, Chevy Impala LS and of course the car that is subject in this forum, the Intrigue!

Can't wait I already confirmed my reservation...I'll post my experiences....

The event will take place in Hallandale Beach, FL at the end of the month.

yurakm

You wrote:
QTY: FP-NUMBER: DESCRIPTION:
1 10464395 GENER REM 2.275
1 10464395 CORE RETURN
1 12346290 COOLANT 8.800


To the best of my understanding, the "REM" in the first line means "remanufactured". The dealership is also returning the core of the same part ("CORE RETURN" with the same number) - most probably, for rebuilding.

If this interpretaion is right, the replacement alternator must be of old design.