What's It Worth in Today's Market

Mr_Shiftright

This is a topic for those of you who may now own
or may be shopping for a "classic" car, and would
like to know what the approximate "real money" Fair
Market Value might be.

If you're think of a particular car rather than
just general curiosity, you might want to refer to
the Guidelines for judging the condition of a
"classic" car, since the actual condition can
drastically affect value.


Guidelines for Judging Condition and Value: Topic
5



By "Fair Market Value", most appraisers, insurance
companies and legal/tax agencies mean this:

"The price paid by a willing and knowledgeable
buyer to a seller who is not under duress"

In other words, the Fair Market Value cannot be
either a distress sale or a price gained by
deception, etc. Also, the Fair Market Value cannot
be determined from asking prices in newspapers or
car magazines, but rather from actual sales.

C13

How about that Morgan I mentioned? Don't remember the name of it. Beautiful little coupe, mid-60's, not at all the traditional Morgan appearance. They did go into production, but nobody bought any. They probably only made it for a year or less.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I'd guess around $25,000 for a decent car, a low #2....the Plus 4 Super Sport roadster is the really valuable Morgan from that era...the coupe is an oddity, and though rare, it would hard to find a buyer that will pony up a good price...probably would be bought by a collector who had to have one of each kind of Morgan, that kind of thing.

I used to own a Morgan, 1957 +4....really fun, and great-looking, but a "crate" through and through...a very primitive car, like it was made in the 1920s. Only for diehards, like Nigel Shiftright. I'd like to drive a Plus 8 sometime, if anybody out there has one.

C13

1. You often mention that a certain car isn't very valuable. The suggestion seems to be that it shouyld therefore not be very valuable to the prospective buyer, investor or enthusiast, but that negates the 'buy low / sell high' concept. The ones that are cheap now may be long shot gambles for appreciation, or they may be an opportunity for somebody to get a car they've wanted since childhood.

2. Are we talking about the same Morgan? Do you understand that the one I refer to has integrated fenders and looks like absolutely no other Morgan before or since? It looks more like an Italian design of the period. In fact, it might be. I guess I'll have to get off my lazy posterior and go loo it up. Jeez, all the other lazy dullards get all kinds of details. What do I get: "Oh, I'd guess around..."

3. Alright, you get another shot. Lancia B20. Current prices, availability, all market data. How many were made, what years, how many imported, etc.

C13

They are cool, aren't they? Successful in rallys too apparently. Lots of nice Lancias from that period.

I see your point about "not worth much". Isn't it true though that virtually anything that outlasts its expected life by a zillion years is destined to appreciate monetarily? I mean, look at Model T's. Never was there a less aesthetically interesting or less esoteric object, but surely a pretty clean, original one is worth a few times what it was 40 yrs ago, which is a few times what it was worth 40 yrs earlier.

I'm not arguing. I'm curious about the concept of value. Obviously an object is worth what someone's willing to pay for it. Another factor for me is that when an object is underappreciated, it actually interests me more. This could work in my favor financially, or it could work against me, though any of the cars I'd buy (if I could buy cars), I'd buy to keep, not to trade, so it might be a moot point.

So you did have the right Morgan in the first place. Beg pardon, Nige. Shoulda known. As far as how the thing looks, I'll have to go look it up and see if I really do think it's pretty. Maybe I was just amazed to see it, and in my memory that surprise turned to a memory of it as a beautiful car.

Mr_Shiftright

It's interesting about styling, C13...sometimes in the photo the car looks attractive and then you see it "live" and it's not so...and vice-versa. There's nothing like 3D...as I recall, the Moggie couple you're referring to looked good at certain angles and not so great at others..so when you do a "walk-around" you get all these contradictory impressions and then they add up into that subjective "yes" or "no".

Now, to me, an Alfa GTV looks good from any angle, and even looks good stripped to bare metal in a wrecking yard, sans trim or tires or anything. The shape is just "right".

Oh, Model Ts...well, I think it works like this...if the car were something special when it was made, it increases in value and is treasured...if the car was just pedestrian or utilitarian, it will grow in value slowly as it ages, sort of keeping up with inflation. So a Model T goes up 15 times in value in 90 years but a Mercedes Benz Gullwing goes up 40 times in value in 40 years. And a Delorean is worth, at best, about what you paid for it, 17 years later...so with inflation, you've actually lost quite a bit on it. Some cars, like Ferrari Testarossas from the late 80s and 90s, haven't hit bottom yet, still dropping from their list prices.

Why the various results....I think because only one of those cars mentioned was all three of the follwing a) low production, b)exceptional in its day, either in engineering and stylng c)always revered and admired since the day it was built.

So, Model T is b only, sometimes c, sometimes not c.

Delorean is kind of a, a little touch of b for ten minutes.

Gullwing is a solid a, b and c.

So that's how I think it works, more or less, regarding the idea of "value"....beyond the hype and the prejudice of the mind, there is some demonstrable beauty or characteristic...another example, a beautiful and intricate wooden ship model, perhaps worth less today than the most collectible plastic Barbie doll, will be worth lots more someday.

C13

Went and stole a peek at the Plus 4 Plus Coupe at the bookstore. I do like it. Very derivative of several other cars of the day, yet they seem in these photos at least, to pull it off. It's got some Aston, some 50's Pininfarina, some other influences. An odd bubble top. I think somebody could write a good sociology thesis on the simultaneous emergence of that car and the Beatles, and the parallels between the two (both utilizing new/old attributes, as well as British/cosmoplitan, pop/esoteric, etc.).

They say that 23 of the 26 made are known to still exist, most of em in the states.

You're right, the Plus 4 Super Sport is very nice.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So how about a nice TVR Tuscan: Cost? Availability?

Mr_Shiftright

TVR? Just saw one today at a swap meet! Don't know too much about them...UK glas coupe, looked like a Triumph TR6 motor in this one, didn't see anything exceptional about it other than it might be fun to drive....I'll have to research value but I know it's not a big bucks car by any means. Reasonably styled, passably attractive I thought.

ajvdh

Some TVRs from the 60s and early 70s had Ford V8s in them. If a car could ever be said to be hazerdous, that would be it. Went like a scalded dog in a straight line, but you had to bring a friend along to turn the steering wheel. Vicous understeer and a frame that flexed so much that windshields would spontaneously crack complete the picture. A guy down the street had one when I was a kid. He sold it after deciding it was "too dangerous" for street use. This from a man who also owned a Norton Commando.

The 4 and 6 cyl versions were supposedly better balanced, but they weren't cheap and didn't really offer anything over a Triumph. A Lotus Elan would beat one like a gong for about the same money. Then again, the only reason the Lotus had mirrors was so you could watch parts fall off (not that I'd kick one out of my garage, mind you).

jome

my nan wants to sell her 1963 buick special with 47,000 original miles on it. It has a v-8 engine & has always been garage kept. does anyone have a clue as to what we should ask for it???

Mr_Shiftright

Depends a lot, jome, on the model and the condition, but as a rough rule, if it were a nice 4 door sedan maybe $2,500, a nice coupe, $3,000-3,500 and a convertible up to $7K...maybe add a little for those low miles, but low miles isn't always an asset, as it often indicates hard seals and frozen parts.

Mr_Shiftright

Dear yohadji,

If it were extremely nice and totally original (no repaint or an extremely professional repaint in the same color) and if it were NOT a European model, asking would be about $25K and selling anywhere from $18-25K depending on where you live, time of year, color of car, etc.

Exceptional cost-no-object restorations can bring $30K...the average good driver, with a few door dings and minimal wear and tear bring $16K-18.

I hope that helps.

Mr. Shiftright

caddy3

Hi!!

Let me try this again. Earlier this week I posted this inquiry and then the system forgot my password and I could not log on to see any responses. I recently inherited my father's pride and joy. A 1978 Cadillac Seville four door sedan, red with red leather interior, fully loaded including the A/M-F/M 8-TRACK/CB radio. The car has been pampered since new, has been garage kept and fussed over constantly. It has 17,000 original miles on it and still has most of the original tune-up parts in the engine. I just last month replaced the factory battery. The car looks, runs and drives like it rolled off the showroom floor this morning.
Any idea what it would be worth on today's market should I decide to sell?

Mr_Shiftright

Dear Caddy3,

This car really doesn't have any collector car value so I think the best approach would be to view it as an exceptionally nice used car that would probably bring a premium over high "book". If we presume a book value of around $3,500,it is possible you might get 10-20% over that from that very special buyer.

The problem with extremely low mileage cars is that if the person pays an extra premium for the low miles, then he/she can't drive it or the miles will build up and their investment goes down. And if it isn't a collector car, they won't find many opporunities or invitations to display it. So the only real alternative is to drive it, and then of course why pay extra for the low mileage? So you see the problem.

A further difficulty is that often such low miles are not a mechanical asset, since seals dry out and internal mechanical parts deteriorate from lack of use.

So if someone offered anywhere from $3,500 to 5,000 for it, I'd take it...there's really no more money than that in the car, and it's not likely to increase in value.

I hope this answers your question, and sorry about the difficulty you had last week logging on!

Mr. Shiftright

kate13

Hi,

I have a '66 Mustang fastback 2+2, 4 speed on the floor, in very good condition (maybe a low #2). Several years ago I had it appraised by a Mustang specialist. Before I tell you the amount he appraised it for, I'd be interested in knowing if there is a range for this car.

Just wondering,

Kate

GTRocks

There's a huge range for Mustangs. Go to www.autotrader.com and do a search for your car. You'll see that the value of these cars ranges widely.

Mr_Shiftright

I've found that appraiser's estimates tend to be too high, because they are trying to protect their clients for insurance purposes; also, appraisal prices are not selling prices...so keeping those caveats in mind, and also that I haven't seem the car, I'd say around $10K-$12K should be able to buy a very very nice 2+2 in today's market. A #2 car is a trophy car in a local show, so I'm assuming yours is pretty darn tasty.

Mr_Shiftright

Those prices reflect the shipping costs and those damn VAT taxes to get the cars over there. You won't get rich shipping American cars to Europe, because the governments get all your profit. Once you factor all that in, the cars cost almost the same here and there....think about it...give at least $1,500-$2,700 for shipping (depending on how many pieces you want it in when you open the container), another 10& import tax, 38% VAT tax, inland transportation cost ($350 or so) and European registration ($600).

yohadji

Mr. Shiftright:

Thanks for the info on the 70 Benz. I am curious, is it more valuable to have a European version of this car or the American? I believe it is an American version, and it has been repainted - but it has a great paint job. At least from the laymans point of view.

Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright

The American version is definitely more valuable and desirable in the U.S....the only possible exception would be a 280SL with the very rare European 5-speed transmission.

A repaint could also devalue the car, depending on how it was done. A color change would be a major decrease in value, unless perhaps the car were a ground-up restoration.

Generally, the top prices for most German roadsters go only to the very best cars...there's a big gap between #2 and #3 cars.

C13

What do you think of Peugeot 505 Turbos?

Also tell us more about Alfa 164s and Milanos. Here's a chance to boost the value of your investment.

PS
Why doesn't Edmunds' print version list Alfa, Lancia, Peugeot, Bertone (X1/9), Fiat, Renault, and other cars that were sold here in the years that the book covers?

Mr_Shiftright

What do I think of Peugeot 505 Turbos...not much!

However, I like the older 504....good sturdy car of proven technology...I had a diesel 504 that could not be killed.... STILL running 8 years after I sold it to someone, although it has acquired a series of bulletholes in the hood, I've noticed.

Alfa 164s and Milano sedans...not for the weak and timid...you'd better know how to use every tool in your toolbox (to give you an idea, my stackable toolbox is literally 4 inches taller than I am, and I am 6' 2").

Aside from the obvious value of pre-war Alfas and certain rare postwar speciality cars, most Alfas from the 60s & 70s are still undervalued, I feel. Compared to most collectible cars of the 60s and 70s, Alfas are a kick to drive, and much better a car than the public believes. Problem is that they never got the proper care from knowledgable service people and owners, but if you buy one right and treat it right, the 60s-70s Alfa can be very reliable, for less than the price of a beater Miata.

bcathcart

MR Shiftright.A few notes on response 20.UK.registration costs only $150. VAT is 17.5%at present.These taxes apply to any car.Treating a trip to the US to buy a car as a vacation,driving it to the shippers,collect at UK docks and drive home still represents an exellent buy.Thanks for your interest

Mr_Shiftright

thank you, bcath! I was quoting Europe in general, based on friend's business experience and type of cars he ships, so I can see where there are possible differences.

From Mr. Tomasetti of Sports Car Market:

Austin Healey BN7, US price........$22,000
inland shipping to US port..........$350
container shipping (stuffing).......$2,750
inland trans from Euro port..........$350
10% import tax (negotiable).........$3,086
38% VAT over two liters (negot.)....$11,728
Euro country licensing and regist.....$600

Total ............................. $40,764


Price of same car in UK............ $30,213 USD
Italy ..........$34,969 USD
Germany $32,950


Anyway, even taking into account regional differences and all sorts of good luck with customs, you can see that there are many hidden expenses in the business of shipping cars overseas.

Thanks for your numbers...i've never shipped to UK, so can't say, but to Switzerland I did find the above numbers pretty accurate except i never found out the cost to register and license a TR8 in Geneva.....

Mr Shiftright

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, using bcath's numbers and numbers I know for sure on this end, the $22,000 Austin Healey still comes out the other end at around $32,450 (bcath didn't mention about this 10% import tax on European Market Value of the car, so that's a $3,000 difference right there)...

Anyway, it looks to me like it isn't worth it to ship such a car to the UK, or barely worth it, unless you picked a car that was worth way more in the UK than it is here.

isellhondas

That 78 Seville just might be worth a few bucks more than Mr. Shiftright thinks.

There are lots of folks who really like these cars.

They were a nice size and weren't a barge like a Sedan De Ville.

I would advertise it in Hemmings along with a photo. I'll bet it'll bring 6-7000 dollars ?

Mr_Shiftright

Well, we always wish that people will get the very price price when they sell....I sort of feel obligated to bring an average realistic price to the table...you know how it goes in used cars....8 out of 10 will hit the going market rate, one will sell for less than it's worth and one will sell for more...but I don't know, for $7,000 you can find decent Eldorado convertibles from the 70s, so it would have to be a rare buyer that will pay such premium for a 4-door...but as you say, it's possible given the miles.

I think I interpreted the poster's request as 'what price will this vehicle sell at" more than "what's the highest price I'm likely to get"...those can be two different prices, depending on whether you want to sell in a month or a year. Of course, isell, I'm preaching to the choir here, you know all this!

C13

Hey I got one for ya, Shriftight. And it's not even old:

Lancia Thema -

Mid-80's sedan, Ferrari V8. Waddya think?

Mr_Shiftright

God, I haven't a clue...never saw one in the U.S....I'd imagine nobody would want one anyhow, or that demand would be so low as to not command a very good price...best to part it out for that Ferrari engine, I'd guess! Can you imagine...Lancia parts availability and Ferrari maintenance costs in a boxy sedan package...what a combo! Not a car for America, I fear.....now, the Lancia Stratos, that's the car you want.

ajvdh

Never sold on the US side of the big pond. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it shared the basic floorpan with the Saab 9000, some Fiat that never made it over here either and the big FWD Alfa they sold in the US in the 80s. Which means it was a front wheel drive transverse mounted Ferrari V8. Yeesh!

C13

Lancia Stratos is indeed the car I want. Tell us about price, availability, mechanical strengths and weaknesses, etc.

Mr_Shiftright

An interesting and rare car, made from 73-75, first developed with prototypes (1972) using 2.4 litre Ferrari V-6 engines, mid-engine, on a steel monocoque frame with glas body...two seat coupe...designed by Bertone.

Apparently Lancia loved the Bertone concept car and decided to homologate it so that the car could officially rallye. About 500 were made, but of course the works rallye cars were more powerful than the homologated cars needed to meet the street production rules.

The Stratos works cars won the World Rally Championship in 1975 & 76.

The standard production cars had 190hp engine, and the car's stats are 143 mph and 0-60 in 6.8 seconds.

In today's market, if you could find one, you'd be paying $45K-65K, depending on condition. I've never driven one or even sat in one, but did see one in Europe and it looked great but seemed really cramped inside.

As for weaknesses, I can't say, probably no better or worse than a Fiat Dino Coupe...the saying is that "Lancia never made a bad car", but i don't know who said it, so.......

marku

I have a 1962 Gran Prix, 389 4barrel, auto, power windows, 8 lugs. The car is all there, with the only known replacement parts being tires, raidator, and battery. I would rate it a 3 minus or 4 plus. No rust, but the paint is faded. Interior is pretty good--white naugahyde buckets, but the carpet is a little threadbare in spots. I'm debating whether to rebuild the motor or sell it. Any idea what this is worth?

angus3

I have a 1967 Pontiac Firebird I am the original owner. Equipment, 3.8 L overhead cam, 3 speed stick, no power steering or brakes, I did not have much money in 1967. This car is in good to very good condition, 86,000 miles

Mr_Shiftright

Dear Marku,

The GP is not the big-buck Pontiac for that year, that would be the Bonneville Convert...but it still has value, although probably not enough to warrant restoration (unless you just love the car and don't care if you don't recover your investment). Probably in the condition you describe about $4,000 is top dollar.

Dar Angus3--I presume this is a hardtop with the single barrel carb on the 6 cylinder OHC engine.
As you know, the V-8 is worth more, the bigger the better, so given the condition you describe about $5,000 would be a fair price, IMO.

darkangel

I have recently taken ownership of a 1976 fleetwood limo. I do not want the car (gas hog)
the car is in good to very good condition. Could
anyone assist me with a value on this car.

Mr_Shiftright

Dear Darkangel,

If it were really quite decent, $2,500-$4,000 is probably where it will sell. If it were like new, $5K might be tops...if a bit shabby, start at $2,500 and go down until someone bites.

isellhondas

Come to your senses! Lancias are referred to as "Lawn Chairs" by the people who work on them. they are called this since they sit around, not running most of the time.

They are JUNK! Like a Fiat ( Fix it Again, Tony)
only much worse!

Mr_Shiftright

Funny, but not true...Lancias are pretty darn good cars, if we're talking about the older ones (which we probably are, since this is the conference about old iron, of course). Fiats, too, can be very good cars...most Americans' exposure to Fiat and Lancia have only been clapped-out pieces of junk driven by owners who couldn't afford to buy gas, much less the proper parts and service, or to late-model 128s and the like. Lancia is a better built car than a Fiat (which is, after all, built to a price)and many 50s and 60s models of Lancia are highly prized today. And in Europe, a nicely restored Fiat 124 roadster will set you back $10,000 easy. And really, Fiat never made a car worse than a Pinto or Vega.

ralph124c

I wouldlike to know if the ALFA 164 would ever be a collectable car-saw one recently, and it is quite a good-looking car. Other than the obvious problems of servicing an orphan, is this car especially difficult to maintain? One black mark-the guy who's trying to sell it told me that the battery was $350.00-does'nt sound right to me.

Mr_Shiftright

Alfa 164s are really great to drive...the most fun larger 4-door sedan I've ever driven BUT they are very problematic and basically a nightmare except for the brave and knowledgable. If you aren't a good wrench yourself or very tight with a great Alfa shop, pass, pass, pass at any price. The only way to come out on a car like this is to buy a pristine one and have it maintained with religious fervor. Automatics are to be avoided at all costs.

C13

Good of you to try to rescue me from the Italian demons, but alas, I am already a lost soul. They captured me long ago, when I received my first model car for my 10th birthday - an odd, 1/18th-scale Lancia-Ferrari D50, a copy of the very car che ha vinto il campione del mondo solamente cinque anni prima alle mani del magnifico Juan Manuel Fangio se stesso - ogni altra macchina mi ha sembrato un' imitazione debole e pietosa.

This addiction is not without its good points. For one thing, I've found a lot of interesting memorabilia on the side of the road while working underneath cars, and also, I have acquired a chicken cacciatore recipe that'll make the best sashimi in Little Tokyo taste like cat food.

PS
At least I haven't gone over to The Dark Side - English cars.

isellhondas

Well, Mr. S.

I guess my limited exposure to Lancias has been TOTALLY different than yours.

I usually agree with you but not this time!

BTW, do you like Le Cars too?

sagarnatha

I have a '59 VW Transporter with double doors that open up on both sides. It's fitted out as a camper with European hardwoods inside - table, bench seat that folds down into a bed, lots of cabinets and a closet, classic old iron low pressure propane stove, conversion to 12 volts and a 1600 cc engine. Folks seem to get pretty excited when I drive it around. Requests to buy it get left on my windshield farely often. It's in fair condition and has a lot of sentimental value to me. It knew a part of it's life as an old hippy van. Any ideas on what a lovely old vehicle like this is worth?

Mr_Shiftright

I'd have to see it...these old VW vans are valued according to condition and originality more than anything, so the price differences can be enormous. You only get big money for perfect ones, and if it isn't a factory camper that also affects value of course...sorry, haven't a clue on this one, not enough details.

Dear Isell....Le Cars...no, I don't like them,although the concept was good. But it would be most unfair to lump Lancias in with them. Lancias are sporting and touring machines, a Le Car is just a cheap car for the masses. Big diff.

Just to give you an idea of Lancia's strength in the collectible car market, the 60s & 70s Flaminias and Fulvias are pulling $10 to $20K now, so far outstripping BMW 2002s and right up there with Mercedes SLs....you've probably been exposed to Betas and Scorpions, which aren't worth much....again, you have to know and pick the right ones, just like anything else one collects or restores.

bobw777

I have a 1970 Mustang, Mach 1. It has a 351 Cleveland motor. It has been in the family since new and has never been in an accident. It has the "shaker hood" functional hood scoop. It is in good shape but is not restored. Mileage is ~150,000 mi. It had a engine rebuild and a transmission rebuild at ~100,00 mi. I'm wondering an approximate value.

Mr_Shiftright

well, a very nice one should sell for around $10-12K, so you can deduct accordingly the amount to get your car into very clean condition inside and out. As you no doubt know, the Mach 351 was made in large quantities, about 113,500 of them, so they are not as valuable as the 428s or the Boss 302s or Boss 351s...but still, a car worth keeping, although maybe not worth restoring just now.

walt66

My brother in Arkansas has a 1964 Chevrolet 3/4T
v-8 with stearing-post shift. It's sitting in his
pole barn with a spray-can paint job peeling off.
It was running pretty good and used daily until
replaced by a newer model about 3 yrs ago. Any
particular value?

C13

What's a pole barn?

queenmastr

Just recently purchased a 1961 International Scout 4x4 in fair condition needs a paint job.
how do I find out what it is worth I have checked everywhere? Help........

Mr_Shiftright

Both of these are really just old trucks and have value only for their utility...potentially, the old Chevy would have some value, but it sounds like it would take more to restore it than a restored one is worth (at least just now). The Scout basically has no value except for the work it can do, and I doubt it will ever have much value, except of course to the person who likes it and uses it.