Cars That Could Have Been Great, But Missed

fintail

That's a very ambitious goal. The A5/6/8 cars are super nice, the new A4 is a big step up, and the R8 is awesome...but the competition keeps improving too. I think the next 5-10 years will be the test. I think since then the cars have been improved. When a 10 year old Audi is no worse than any similarly aged German, they will have made it. Today...I'd easily take a 10 year old MB or BMW before its Audi counterpart.

texases

I'm not sure what you mean by 'truck-based 4wd', but the Eagle was full time awd, no low range. Not from any existing truck. First in the US, I understand.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes it had a relatively advanced 4WD full-time system, but the platform was stone-age Concord (debut in 1970!) and the engines were the old "Iron Duke" and the AMC 6---not exactly paragons of thrift or performance.

hpmctorque

Exactly. Seeing old examples of a brand on the road, proportionate to the numbers sold, of course, inspires confidence. Not seeing them does just the opposite.

Now, it's possible that Audi has achieved MB and BMW-like reliability in their 2010 models. Even if that were true, it would take several years for the perception to catch up with the reality. But, why not strive for Acura and Lexus reliability? Well, okay, Lexus has been tarnished recently, but I think much of the adverse publicity is overblown.

For me and others, the German luxury brands have their Asian counterparts beat in driving dynamics and styling. They also seem to age better, from an appearance standpoint. Now, if they could only close the gap on maintenance and repair they'd have it all. I want to believe this is the goal internally.

It seems as though the Asian luxury brands are trying mightily to catch the Germans in the areas where they excel, but can't quite do it. For example, the Infiniti G matches and even exceeds the 3-series and C-Class in most performance measures, but falls short on refinement. The G puts up the numbers, but lacks a certain subjective quality that's difficult for me to describe. All I know is that I don't lust for one.

texases

Oh, I'm no Eagle fan. I bought an '84 Cherokee when the downsized ones first came out (old fashioned 4wd w/transfer, 'iron duke' 4-cyl), a friend got an Eagle. No comparison in the amount of room, I could barely fit in the Eagle.

fintail

I don't believe the Germans will ever approach that level of reliability, for many reasons. A big part of it is a German fixation with a machine being complex as possible, just for the sake of being complex. This will make a vehicle inherently more high maintenance. There almost always seems to be an inverse relationship between driving pleasure and frequency of maintenance too (although some unreliable cars can be terrible to drive, and a few reliable vehicles can be good to drive). European consumers are also much more tolerant of high demand vehicles than those in NA...Lexus barely sells there, that says a lot. I don't think we'll ever see the Euros equal the Lexus reliability standard, but they are improving as time goes on.

Mr_Shiftright

The Germans have a tendency toward complacency, born of their tremendous success in the automobile industry.

Mercedes was asleep at the wheel when the 1990 Lexus came out, and they ended up giving away a huge piece of the luxury car pie to the Japanese.

The Brits did the same thing with motorcycles---they didn't take the Japanese seriously enough. Just like The Germans thought their "territory" (high end luxury) was invincible to the Japanese, so the British thought that their turf (powerful big displacement road bikes) was untouchable by the makers of mopeds and lawn mowers.

And then came the Honda 750-4. :surprise:

Japan is a formidable opponent. You can't let up on innovation for a moment or they'll wipe you out.

fintail

The Germans gave some away in the US, but pretty much nowhere else. BMW and MB still utterly dominate the global luxury market, with no downturn in sight. What hurt Germans 20 years ago was aging overpriced products. The Germans aren't going to do much to specifically cater to American demands - it's their way or nothing, take it or leave it, where on the other hand Lexus exists to cater to tastes on this continent. It was a brilliant move by the Japanese, but time will tell if it works anywhere else.

The British pretty much lost every part of the motor industry. Even Morgans have BMW engines now.

hpmctorque

What you say about "my way or the highway is mostly true, but the Germans did give in on cup holders, for example, even though few Germans use them. Also, I've read that the new family-size car VW will produce in Chattanooga, TN, to replace or supplement the Passat, is being designed for NA tastes.

Mr_Shiftright

Well true, but the Germans also lost prestige and bragging rights worldwide. US may be a fading market, but Asia certainly isn't.

lemko

It's worse than that! Even the ubiquitous black London taxis are powered by Nissan engines!

fintail

I don't know, the Chinese LOVE MB and BMWs. I think most of the prestige still exists in that market.

fintail

Well, cupholders are a pretty small feature...and I think in German cars they still pretty much suck, I know the ones in my E55 won't hold the average American 90 oz drink :shades: . If anything, the greatest German catering to American demand was the development of poser SUVs like the X5 and ML - and they ran to the bank with those.

lemmer

How about the X6? Ain't that great? A monstrously heavy SUV that can't really go offroad, can't really tow, and has no space inside. I thought it was surely the answer to the question nobody asked, but there are a few of them in my neighborhood. One even has the personalized license plate "X6" as if it is the greatest thing on earth. Anyway, I digress...

fintail

Yeah, the X6 is something all its own...at least the X5 and ML can do a few practical tasks if you ask them hard enough, the X6 is all about conspicuous consumption. Top Gear had a hilarious test drive of one.

Mr_Shiftright

They also love Buicks, so maybe it's more about pent-up demand than anything else.

jlflemmons

When I got my new Elantra Touring I noticed one of the console cup holders seemed different. Then found that it holds a Sonic Route44 perfectly.

I think Hyundai has been doing market studies. :shades:

fintail

Oh, we all know the Buick link - prewar Chinese royalty had Buicks, back when Buick made some high end products.

I am sure I have told this story, but when I was at the AMG facility, there was a group of Chinese visitors (I assume rich "businessmen") visiting and taking a fleet oars on a test drive . The AMG people even put the red Chinese flag on the cars. Go to HK or Vancouver, and the Chinese population there with money loves the S-class like it is the greatest car ever.

fintail

The thought of spilling something like that in my car makes me want to cry. I have a fear of a big drink spilling on the center console, where MB has conveniently stashed a bunch of electonics, and causing untold sums of damage. The fintail could be a good dining car though...rubber floors, nothing electronic to ruin...also, no cupholders.

jlflemmons

Never understood the purpose of a huge drink in a car. Bladder capacity should be tied to fuel economy.

Mr_Shiftright

Old tradition. Mao had a 600 Pullman. (no, really, he did).

fintail

Or better yet, wait until at your destination, or take a 10 minute pit stop to stretch your legs and get a drink. I guess I am never in a big enough hurry :shades:

fintail

I think Brezhnev also had one of those, along with an SLC.

Here's the contingent of Chinese test-drivers...note the little flags attached to the cars...I suspect AMG made some good money that day.

andre1969

Never understood the purpose of a huge drink in a car. Bladder capacity should be tied to fuel economy.

Actually, I kinda liked the Intrepid's cupholders. They would hold a 40 Big Gulp with ease.

The Park Ave's cupholders are smaller, but then, older people tend to have weaker bladders, don't they? :P

hpmctorque

Mao and 600 Pullman is an oxymoron, if there ever was one. Well, okay, given that Mao was just a dictator by another title, maybe it was consistent. A real man of the people, eh?

Mr_Shiftright

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Never fails....never.

lemko

Not just Chinese royalty. The British Royal family had a few pre-war Buick Limiteds as transportation.

lemmer

Yeah, you know the pigs seemed like really good guys in the beginning of Animal Farm.

lemko

Mao had a 600 Pullman?!??! What a hypocrite! He should've been driving around in a dumptruck made by the glorious Chinese worker!

lemko

Heck, this Buick Electra 225 once belonged to Nicolai Ceaucescu - the mad Stalinist dictator of Romania:

lemko

Oh, he ALSO had a Mercedes 600! What is it with foreign dictators and the 600?

fintail

The 600 is the postwar embodiment of the old 770 cars - which were ultimate dictator-mobiles. Especially in pictured form, the landaulet - perfect for parades and photo shoots.

Lenin owned several Rolls over his career...a real man of the people, with the best interests of the masses at heart.

lemko

Heck, Stalin had his own pseudo-Packard, the ZIS 110. The "S" stands for "Stalin." This is Stalin's personal 1949 ZIS 110B:

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, you can't go running over peasants in the street in a Trabant. You might bog down in the crowd.

The dictator, of course, is almost god-like, so what kind of car would god drive in the 1960s. Exactly. A huge, powerful, bullet-proof Benz.

Studebaker made a model called a "Dictator" in the 1930s but I don't think any dictators bought them. It would be rather sad for a dictator to be driven around in a Stude. Well maybe if he ruled over a very small country. :P

lemko

...here is the ultimate dictatormobile:

fintail

Studebaker Dictator is a name kind of like a Chevy Celebrity. We can be pretty safe in assuming that none of their namesakes actually drove those cars. Neither had a chance of great cars either.

Mr_Shiftright

Did you know that no photo exists of Hitler driving a car?

fintail

Fast forward 30 years, and the 600 is the replacement for that insane locomotive on tires.

andre1969

Did you know that no photo exists of Hitler driving a car?

Well, I did notice that the one Lemko posted has a high-chair in the back for him! Actually, I'd heard that Hitler didn't know how to drive.

fintail

I think I read he drove at one time, but never had a license, and stopped driving when it became risky because of his political position. Many large prewar MB will claim to have a similar connection, but it is rarely proven.

lemmer

Mazda is discontinuing the RX-8. It is a great handling car that is mucho fun to drive, but it sucks gas and had enormous teething problems at its introduction.

texases

I heard...that RX-8 seemed kinda neither/nor (sports car/coupe). It just seemed odd to take that low-torque engine and add the weight of a rear seat and extra door(s?). I'd think light=better for a Wankel.

lemmer

Yeah, why not a Miata coupe with a rotary? That sounds a lot better to me. You'd have a Cayman fighter for less than half the price.

fintail

I've read there will be a new RX-7 as a replacement...maybe it will have a better chance at greatness

jlflemmons

Run? Oh, YEAH!

Gas mileage, eh, who cares?

lilengineerboy

Mazda is discontinuing the RX-8. It is a great handling car that is mucho fun to drive, but it sucks gas and had enormous teething problems at its introduction.

British fan-boy cite gossip: It can't meet more stringent emissions requirements

93-95 RX7s had 60-70k apex seals
'03+ RX8 reliability issues with the motor and engine program

berri

I don't know much about the RX-8. Does it still have a Wankel type engine? If so, the gossip may be true because those engines always had U.S. emission problems.

oregonboy

For those who aren't familiar with the RX-8, or who just want to see a fun BBC, Top Gear video review... may I recommend:

Top Gear: RX-8

jlflemmons

Yes, emission problems would be an understatement. Not a slam on Mazda there, they actually did get the Wankel design to pass, but wow, what they had to do to get it there. I know early on they use some sort of "afterburner" chamber between the engine and catalytic to get rid of some of the unburned fuel. This was years ago.

I also know that the early versions were prone to rotor seal wear from high rpm use. The beast would scream past 10Krpm like it was coming off idle! Problem was if you did that long enough, one day you would come down to idle and it wouldn't. It would just stall out from loss of compression.

But the two things that I remember most about the Wankel; runs like stink, burns through fuel like no other small displacement street engine I have seen.

lemmer

A well respected sourcesays you pretty much need to multiply a rotary's stated displacement by three. It makes sense to me.