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Cars That Could Have Been Great, But Missed

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    I think the 59 Merc was one of the most hideous monstrosities ever created in American automotive history...other than that, not bad at all. :P

    image
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yep, just butt ugly and the station wagons were worse!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I trust the designers were put against a wall and shot.

    I hope they have a course in design school called "bad design and how it got that way".

    Styling is an art, and as such has certain basic "principles" that one violates at one's own peril. Perhaps in modern art one can get away with it, but in product design there's the question of functionality harmonizing with form. It is, after all, supposed to be a car underneath that chrome pagan temple to Baal, or Kalesh, whatever form of devil worship the designer of the 59 Mercury was into.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    I don't really like the rear of the '59 Merc at all. It seems like they were trying to put a grille on the rear of the car, as well as up front! IIRC, Lincoln did that, too.

    I think the '59 Merc looks really good from the front, though...
    image

    The front-end is downright clean and graceful, compared to what they did in back!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,822
    edited January 2011
    If you've ever seen what Packard had on the drawing boards for '57-58 prior to the closing of the Detroit plant, you'll see the '58 Merc but with an upright, narrow grille not unlike Edsel.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,243
    I trust the designers were put against a wall and shot.

    Not hardly, for 1960 they came up with this...>

    image

    ...and I still say the Lincolns were worse>

    image

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,822
    I don' t know how a company that built a car like the '60 Ford Starliner could build Mercurys and Lincolns that looked like the above...especially when the '61 Lincoln was drop-dead gorgeous in a simple way.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    For some reason, the 1959-60 Lincoln doesn't bother me that much. It's big and massive and bulky, but I don't find it particularly ugly. Now I didn't care for the 1958, which had the slanty headlights in their own pods separate from the grille. That made the front-end look more swollen to me.

    I think it's amazing what a job they did with the 1960 Mercury. I used to think it was a one-year only design, and that the 1959 was just a continuation of the 1957-58, with a wheelbase stretch. IMO, the '59 looks more like a '57-58 than it does a '60. Still, that doesn't mean the '60 is attractive! I think it's cleaner in style than the '59, and less cluttered, but somehow, more ugly.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    Those slanty headlights are pretty hard to digest and the preposterous fender caps and the bizarre coving are all pretty crazy attempts at styling a car. It looks like a SquareBird gone bad. This car could make a baby jump out of its stroller if you ask me.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Besides their horrible looks, they weren't very good cars either.

    They plowed through corners like a crusie ship and they had a lot of quality problems and electrical glitches.

    Cadillac had little competion from Lincoln.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...in lieu of a Cadillac instead of a Lincoln:

    image
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, that's pretty ugly too don't you think?

    No doubt about it. Cadillac ruled that market in those days!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    No doubt!

    image
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited January 2011
    What a pretty car. just classy although I could do without the wires.

    Why do people put those on Buciks and Cadillacs when they never came with them?

    Besides the classic good looks those were great cars too.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    I always thought the Imperial was pretty handsome looking, up front at least. The fins were a bit much, but at least it was fairly cleanly styled. Actually, there's something about that Imperial's front end that always looked just a bit Cadillac-ish, to me.

    In 1961 though, Imperial really went off the wall, with those free-standing headlights. I guess if nothing else, it was kinda bold, and different. But not exactly gorgeous.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Squished, elongated and exaggerated ... that's kind of what most 59 and 60 styling was - you need a pix of a 59 Dodge to finish up the scrapbook! Got to be honest though, I always kind of liked the 59 Caddy even more than that 60 you're showing. It sort of symbolized the era of America on top and the space age dawning. America was optimistic and reaching for the sky back then, so if you look at some of these vehicles from that perspective, you can kind of understand the styling themes at the time (but the 60 Merc - gotta think it was a designer depressed over Russia and Sputnik or something)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    And, those Imperials weren't very good cars either.

    A Cadillac handled like a sports car compared to an Imp. The Imperials had the ugliest, wierd dashboard and controls and oodles of electrical problems.

    The ate ball joints and other front end parts too.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don' t know how a company that built a car like the '60 Ford Starliner

    The Starliner roof line was nice and the front end wasn't bad, but overall I don't think the 60 Ford was really a big styling success as evidenced by its short, one year lifespan. The lower lines like the base Fairlane had a bulbous rear window and the rear end looked like an aborted 59 Chevy. While Chevy did some heavy updating in '60, Ford pretty much just replaced their '60 in '61.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Imperial's heavy "eyebrow fenders" are really heinous bits of body sculpturing IMO. I can hardly think of a worse thing to do to any car---give it fender overhang. This certainly doesn't work in architecture either:

    image

    ugly house, ugly car, methinks. It has no grace, no flow to it. It's a botch.

    The Cadillac is "okay" except for the silly fins and the wire wheels--but the body line at least flows and doesn't confuse the eye. The grill was supposed to convey the 1960s idea of "rich" with lots of jewels---which is probably why many of us regard designs like this somewhat vital and outrageously bold, but at the end of it---garish.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,243
    I could do without the wires.

    Why do people put those on Buciks and Cadillacs when they never came with them?


    Actually they did, Kelsey-Hayes Wires were a rare and expensive option offered on many upper-end 50s cars including T-Birds, Caddies, Chrysler 300s etc. IIRC they were standard on the '53 and '54 Skylarks optional on some other Buicks. They are actual wire wheels, not the wheel covers often seen in the '60s.

    For the most part I think they look good but they must be hell to maintain.
    It's one of those things that are seen far more often on restored examples than they ever were originally like side pipes in a Sting Ray or exhaust splitters on a GTO.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    For some reason, it seems those Kelsey-Hayes wires were common on '53-54 Mopars. I've even seen plenty of pics (well, "plenty" in a relative sense) of Plymouths sporting them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They seem pimpy on a car of that type. It's the automotive equivalent, to me, of a fat guy wearing gold chains around his neck.

    One gets the impression that rather than having the light wires "lift" the car, as they do in graceful sports cars, in a heavy 50s American car the body seems to want to crush the wheels. You expect to hear spokes popping as it drives past.

    Elvis would have loved them.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It's the automotive equivalent, to me, of a fat guy wearing gold chains around his neck.

    So would vinyl roofs then be like the fat guys chest hair sticking out behind the all that gold jewelry around his neck?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,546
    I guess KHs were theoretically available on a number of cars, but I'll bet 90% or more of the ones with them today didn't have them originally, just like 'Continental kits', or, for that matter, the sport wheels on early Mustangs. But those look better than KHs, and way way better than the Conti kits.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It's the automotive equivalent, to me, of a fat guy wearing gold chains around his neck.

    So would vinyl roofs then be like the fat guys chest hair sticking out behind the all that gold jewelry around his neck?


    They need a facebook style "like" button for some of these comments.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,822
    I think the '61 was basically a heavy facelift (think '81 Monte Carlo vs. '80) on the '60. AFAIK, rooflines stayed the same, instrument panel stayed the same. I do prefer a '61 Starliner to a '60. In fact, in any color but that oh-so-typical Ford tomato red, inside and out, they used back then, I'd love a '61 Starliner.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    edited January 2011
    I dunno...I think a 1953 DeSoto wears them really well.

    I think one reason a '53 DeSoto comes to my mind quickly with these types of wheels is that there's a pic that pops up in several of my old car books, of a pale yellow '53 Firedome convertible with Kelsey-Hayes wheels.

    Now, I don't think they'd look very good on my '57. Here's a '57 Adventurer with them.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    Yeah, my understanding was that the '60-64 Ford was essentially the same platform, although the '61 was a very heavy facelift, enough to make it look almost all-new. And they would do more than just change the quickie bolt-on stuff, but make changes in sheetmetal, and perhaps even some of the body structure. For instance, the '61 didn't have the wrap around windshield that the '60 did. That must have been a pretty big waste of money, to offer that particular wrap around windshield only for 1960 and then have to ditch it the next year.

    GM had a knack for that, as well. The 1959-64 Chevy were all the same basic thing underneath, and so were the '65-70.

    And I like the example you used...1980 Monte Carlo versus 1981. That sounds like the type of example I would use. ;-)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,822
    My parents bought a dark green metallic with gold pinstripe '80 Monte Carlo V6, Rally Wheels, belt moldings, the wide rocker moldings, and it looked pretty nice. The four headlights looked better than the '78-79 Monte I think, and the door panels were carpeted at the bottom, instead of exposed hard plastic like those earlier years. However, I detested the crappy woodgrain inside on the '80-82...I like the black panels of the '78 and '79 better. I had an '81 Monte, which I thought looked infinitely better outside than an '80. My folks had an '84 and I liked the dark, flat woodgrain trim inside, with gold-colored outlines, a lot.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...w/o the wire wheels:

    image

    Personally, I prefer the Cadillac Sabre-spoke wheels from the 1950s over the wire wheels:

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think wire wheels belong on sports cars, motorcycles and bicycles, period.

    That Desoto screams to me: "Grandma won the lottery!"

    I will admit, though, that wire wheels on this big barges occasionally is de rigeur on some cars, like the 50s Buick Skylark. But that's a collector/market preference, not necessarily a good aesthetic decision for the car.

    There are so many handsome wheels and wheel covers out there, that I see no reason to go through the expense and hassle of wire wheels on these big cars---they are hard to clean, expensive to buy and/or restore, and to my eye, are pretentious and non-functional.

    After all the whole idea of wire wheels was to make the car lighter (unsprung weight). Putting them on a 2-ton cruiser seems pointless and does not follow function.

    It's "automotive jewelry" in other words, like conti kits, mudflaps, chrome exhaust tips, furry dice, steer horns and silver-dollar door panels.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,546
    Re: the DeSoto ad:
    "Amazingly, the Firedome engine, working through a Tip-Toe Shift with Fluid Torque Drive, hurled the DeSoto down the quarter mile in 19.7 seconds at 69 miles per hour - according to the testers at Motor Trend."

    "hurled...19.7 seconds at 69 miles per hour"...That's 0-60 in about 15 seconds or so... things sure have changed!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, no, "hurled" is a very good term to convey that sense of random ballistics associated with a speeding 50s American car. We know it's going, but we're not sure where. :P

    To be fair to the car, that Fluid Drive was very inefficient and ate up lots of HP just to get the car moving.

    "Pigs CAN fly given sufficient velocity"
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,243
    After all the whole idea of wire wheels was to make the car lighter (unsprung weight).

    I thought a wire wheel was almost always heavier than the equivalent stamped steel disc wheel.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Maybe in modern times but not back when the wire wheel was developed from the bicycle. And really we get the "sports car" concept from small lightweight British cars of the 1930s.

    Wires also served the function of aesthetics, in that you were able to see through the wire wheel (they were quite large way back when) which made the car very graceful.

    Those 50s wires are too small, is the point---the cars look too big on top of them.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    edited January 2011
    "hurled...19.7 seconds at 69 miles per hour"...That's 0-60 in about 15 seconds or so... things sure have changed!

    I think I've seen that test, and I want to say that 0-60 came up in something like 17.3 seconds?

    Also, keep in mind, this was a two ton monster, and that tiny 276.1 Hemi was just a 2-bbl putting out 160 hp gross. That's about 120 net. Lotta cars back then struggled to break 20 seconds in the 0-60 run. The DeSoto 6-cyl, a 250.6 CID unit that put out around 116 hp, was good for around 21.6 seconds, IIRC.

    I think the early 50's Saratoga, which was basically a smaller Windsor with the big 331 New Yorker Hemi, was good for 0-60 in about 10-11 seconds, which was probably about as good as it got in those days unless you went for something truly exotic.

    The times really changed fast back then though. By 1955, Consumer Reports tested a Fireflite with the 291 Hemi, 4-bbl, 200 hp, and 2-speed Powerglide, and got 0-60 in something like 13.3 seconds. I think the '56, with a 330.4 Hemi and 255 hp, was good for around 11.4. And I've seen a test for a '57 Firedome convertible, 341 2-bbl Hemi, 270 hp, and the 3-speed torqueflite, 0-60 in 9.7 seconds. The Fireflite, with a 4-bbl and 295 hp, was quicker, and the 1-hp/inch 345 hp Adventurer, quicker still.

    It's amazing, to think that in just four short years, they were cutting the 0-60 times in half on many cars, and really bringing the power to the people.

    Edit: wanna hear something really sad? Motortrend tested a 1980 New Yorker 5th Ave with a 318-2bbl. quarter mile in 19.8 seconds. :blush: So, 27 years later, and with the benefit of the relatively fast-shifting torqueflite (those old Mopar semi-automatics were really sluggish), 42 more cubic inches, similar hp (the 318-2bbl put out 120 hp that year), probably similar weight (~2 tons), and you end up with a slower car!

    The 80 NYer managed to get to 60 mph in 14.1 seconds though, so I guess it was a bit better off the line than the DeSoto, but then just ran out of steam after that? The NYer would've been stuck with a sluggish 2.45:1 axle. I have no idea what a '53 DeSoto would've used. My '57 has a 3.36:1 axle, and the 2-speed automatics used a 3.54:1, so I guess a '53 might have something even shorter?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I totally agree with you on the wire wheels!

    At an old car meet I attended last summer tehre were two 55 Buicks that had the wire wheels. These came on the 53-54 Skylarks but not anyu other Buicks. They MAY have been available as an option but I never saw any.

    Another thing that bothers me are wide whitewalls on cars that didn't come with them. The one inch whitewalls came out in 1962 at least on GM cars.

    I saw a '64 Impala with 3 inch wide whites and they ruined the looks of the car at least for me.

    And what is with those "blue dot" tailight lenses that seem to be on so many old cars. I don't remember EVER seeing a car with those.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Some cars look good with a correct vinyl roof.

    I had a yellow 1965 Buick Riviera with a factory black vinyl roof and it really looked sharp. One day I saw one just like mine without the roof and it just didn't look right.

    Now a pimped out padded vinyl top on a Cadillac, that is another story!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,758
    edited January 2011
    The wide whites bug me too. The 68 Fairlane my dad had in the 90s had 2.5" whitewalls - the old man he bought it from put them on, I thought it looked silly, but he actually liked it. This was a fairly lowline car too - small hubcaps, no PS or PB, 3 on the tree, etc (but it did have a V8). White on white with wide whites, what?

    MB used wide whites through 64, when my fintail gets new tires I am going to seek a correct looking set.

    Regarding vinyl tops, they are either hot or cold. I actually like 79-85 Eldos and bustleback Sevilles - but only with a metal top. Not often seen.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Here again, the vinyl roof comes from carriage days, when the most expensive carriages were leather-roofed. So too, the landau bars.

    But once you take these same very formal and very conservative styling elements and attempt to translate them to a modern mass-produced car, especially ones with no formal lines---- before you know it the leather becomes vinyl and the landau bars are glue-ons made of plastic.

    And thus the whole thing becomes a travesty.

    If the top doesn't drop and the landau bars don't landau, then don't put it on the car. It's no different than fake air vents, and those fake continental tire humps in trunk lids.

    How can one be proud of a totally phony car? Doesn't make sense to me.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    When I was in the tool business, thre was a Cadillac Dealer in Oakland that had one bay dedicated for the installation of dealer installed accessories.

    They would install thick padded vinyl tops on new Cadillacs. they put on ugly Vogue tires with chrome and gold wire wheels. Thy stuck on landau bars and trunk straps. Gaudy and ugly gold grilles and hood ornaments.

    I watched them pimp out a Sedan De Ville one day and the installer told me the guy had spent over 5000.00 just for that junk!

    He probably devalued it more than that in the process.

    Just the thing to cruise down San Pablo Avenue in, huh?
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,243
    than a vinyl roof is one of those half-vinyl deals where they only do the rear,

    What's that about?

    My Pop bought a DeVille with the half roof and Conti kit and I told him all he needed was the Landau Irons for the "Full Florida". I don't think he appreciated it but his current DV has none of that stuff.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    than a vinyl roof is one of those half-vinyl deals where they only do the rear,

    What's that about?


    I think that look actually works on some cars. My '76 LeMans has a landau roof. I'd prefer that it didn't, but I still think it wears it well.

    One reason I think those vinyl roofs became so popular in the 1970's is that they could charge extra for the option, but the cars were actually cheaper to build because they didn't have to finish off the area under the vinyl. Some of those 70's cars, if you pull the vinyl off, you'll find exposed, unfinished seams, exposed rivets and bolts and such, and unpainted areas.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I had the top replaced with a factory type on my Riviera and it was fine underneath.

    Sometimes they would trap water and cause rust. This happened a lot on the '65 Impalas for some reason. Back below the rear window.

    I knew a guy who was selling a car that had rust bubbles under the vinyl. He "solved" the problem with a rubber mallet.

    Nice, huh?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    Yeah, in the 60's it wasn't so bad. My '69 Dart had a vinyl roof that was tearing at the seams, and getting water and rust. I pulled the whole roof off, and thankfully, it was finished underneath. Getting all that glue off was a pain, though! I cheaped out in fixing the roof, though...put Bondo on it and smoothed it out the best I could, and then it just got painted over when the car was painted. But it held. The car was painted in April of 1990. Totaled on March 23, 1992 (I hate the way some dates stick in my mind). Sent to the junkyard in late 1994, and in late 1995, the last time I saw it, the junkyard still had it. And that spot I bondo'ed was still looking good! So I must have done something right.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I never met a postwar American car that looked better with vinyl roof and landau bars than without them.

    Or to put it another way---if any car aspired to greatness, and was teetering on the brink of becoming great, the fake roof and bars would knock them back into the also-rans.

    If one looks at the most admired postwar American classics today, you don't see any of them with this stuff on them, except the "second-tier" car under $10K or so. And even if you do see them, they still aren't our "great" cars.

    I wish I could do Photoshop better, I think it would be interesting to put landau bars on a '67 Corvette 427 :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    If one looks at the most admired postwar American classics today, you don't see any of them with this stuff on them, except the "second-tier" car under $10K or so. And even if you do see them, they still aren't our "great" cars.

    But you also have to remember, that vinyl roofs really didn't start making a comeback until the 1960's, and pretty much had their peak in the 1970's and early 80's. Now many "classics" were built in the 60's, 70's, and 80's? Well, okay, my grandparents 1982 Malibu was a Classic, and I gotta admit, my '76 LeMans is Grand. And even my old '89 Fury was pretty Gran, itself! :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You may have liked my '65 Riviera. No laudau bars, just a black vinyl top that seemed like it belonged there for some reason.

    I miss that Buick. I think it had every option that was available that year.

    It had Reverb (remember?) cruise control, A/C power vent windows and even an Autronic eye.

    It would burn rubber for a half block and if you drove it VERY carefully, it would get 10 MPG on premimum.

    Anyone know what a Autronic eye was?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,554
    ou may have liked my '65 Riviera. No laudau bars, just a black vinyl top that seemed like it belonged there for some reason.

    I think cars like a '65 Riviera could pull off a vinyl roof pretty well because there was a definite division between the C-pillar and the quarter panel. I think that's key. On cars where the C-pillar blends into the quarter panel a vinyl roof doesn't work as well.

    I don't think a vinyl roof works as well on the 1966 and later Rivs, even though you're more likely to find one of them with a vinyl roof.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,758
    Wasn't the Autronic eye an automatic headlight dimmer? A little pod on the top of the dash I think.
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