Thanks guys. The dealer told me my Vibe is in transit. I should have it early next week. I am lucky they have one in transit. Otherwise factory order will take about 8~10 weeks. I used all of my GM points (worth about $2,900) for the Vibe. In future, I will use Citibank's driver's edge card instead of new GM card. Only get 2% benefit from driver's edge card but you can use it for all kinds of cars--include used cars. I saw Aerio the other day in a mall parking lot. Front looking is cute. Reak looking is a little different. I believe the market for this kind of higher wagon, or sport wagan, or CUV, whatever they call it, will be good. Van is too big for small families and no fun to drive. Most of SUV are too expensive. I almost go for a Saturn Vue this time but my wife prefer Vibe.
mnontanafan : Not sure why these Vibes are so scarce. I wish they would get some numbers out before they start advertising. Very frustrating to see 1 car for testing only.
If my math is correct: 48,000 Vibes (Pontiac said they think they will sell 45,000 and build 50,000, think limit at NUMMI is 55,000). 4,000 per month. 2,800 US dealers/??? Canadian dealers (3,000??). 1.33 per dealer per month. So if Fiore Pontiac has 5 base in stock, it figures that I find 3 without.
Not that many posts here for a new, 'hot' car. Did GM do to much early advertising? I would have expected this thread to be among the top 10. Too bad - this is the best car Pontiac has had in a long, long time.
Checked with my friend - his Celica GTS cost 32K Canadian plus taxes 2 years ago (it has leather, which top Vibe/Matrix doe not). Nevertheles, these cars are competitive in price to the Celica.
There do seem to be many more Matrix owners (myself inc.) than Vibe owners on the forums. I've only seen one confirmed Vibe owner! Also, early on the Vibe forum had many more posts...now the Matrix has taken the lead. Perhaps it's that price gap in the US....along with the warrantly issue there.
Not to mention that historically, at least, Toyotas retain their value (by depreciating less) far better than ANY American car.
Many say the Vibe looks better, but there aren't as many at dealers, and they definitely are more expensive to start with while probably being worth less than the Toy just a few months from now.
Perhaps, as has been said before, the pricing difference is to allow GM room for its traditional incentives, but it may instead push customers to the friendly, local Toyota dealer (or even the unfriendly, local Toyota dealer getting MSRP for Matrices!)
tup : Problem is there is nothing to buy. No supply = no sales.
johnclineii : Nothing depreciates less than a Corvette. Of course most people can't afford one.
I did actually seem my first Vibe on the road. It was a base with aluminum wheels. A 30-35 year old woman was driving it. She was wearing a business suit. Is the Vibe / Matrix a chick car? Everyone I've seen driving these things are women!
I guess with so many Pontiac dealers out there with so many pontiac models...the Vibe doesn't get the attention the Matrix does at the Toyota dealers. Our local dealer has had a silver automatic vibe with power option and alloy wheel option and automatic for over a month now....still sitting there....goes on several test drives. The Toyota dealer has 2 Matrixes (first 2 are gone). One of the new Matrixes is sold leaving one available.
So Where are all the Vibes going? Are they that behind in production compared to the MAtrix?
Matrix supply will be greater than Vibe supply, that is known for sure as the Vibe plant is sending production to Japan. I think Matrix production also began before the Vibe so they are likely a few weeks ahead. Still, I have only seen two Matrix cars on the street so far. Local dealer has none on the lot right now.
It appears for the most part here that people are looking at this car as their main mode of transportation, which is good, but I'd like to offer another view as well.
I have a C5 (summer car) and an LHS (winter car), and my wife drives a leased Expedition (big mistake car - well, at least she got it out of her system now).
The lease on the Expy is up in a couple of months and we have been looking to rectify this mistake on a more reasonable vehicle choice for her. She needs something that can occasionally haul a few Design supplies for her clients.
Minivans are out (enough said), and we don't want something that looks like dad's old estate station wagon. She originally was interested in an Aztek (ouch), and actually managed to drag me to the dealer to look at one when we saw the new Vibe GT sitting in the showroom. We both went right to it, and at the same time said "what a cool car!". Now, we can probably afford most cars out there today, but we don't want to unnecessarily give donations to a car company (ie. Expy mistake) for no good reason. Also, I am very biased against imports, so we just focus on the big 3.
My point is that this car appeals to many different types of buyers and I think it will be a big seller. I just hope it drives well. That GT was sold, so we couldn't take it for a test.
Dindak - I wish I could agree with you that Corvettes hold their value well, but these days, I don't think anything is doing very well. I don't even want to know how much the value of my 2001 has dropped in one year. Doesn't matter though, because I never plan to get rid of it anyway. (maybe thats why they hold their value?)
Is it a Chick Car? - hmmmm... I would guess that more women than men are going to buy one. But, I'll definitely still drive it once in while (which is more than I could say if she ever bought an Aztek...).
I don't really care about the chick car thing, more of an observation. I like the Vibe, but my wife is luke warm at best.
As for Corvettes, I love them so I look at the prices all the time. They definitely hold their value well if they are taken care of and depending on the model year. Very collectible. You are right, if/when I get one I will likely never sell it.
Don't want to rain on your parade but if you buy a Vibe, you're essentially buying a Toyota, so don't know how that would fit in with your bias towards imports.
Matrix + Toyota's reputation for quality and reliability. Matrix - Lack of body side molding to protect the beautiful job they did on the sheet work. Matrix - Lack of a roof rack.
Vibe + Side molding. Vibe + Roof rack. Vibe - The left-over Aztec cladding. Vibe - GM's lack of reputation for quality and reliability.
Mike - My biases are more toward the upscale imports - BMW, Mercedes, etc - probably due to the snobbish owners who drive them more than anything else. I don't mind Toyota or Honda at all, I just find their vehicles mostly boring in style. Besides, most all Toys and Hondas are built here anyway. (I don't care for the look of the Matrix either).
Dindak - no order placed yet. With the other two cars in the garage, we have lots of time to wait out the initial rush and let things settle down a bit (as long as it stops snowing by May, so the Vette can come out).
I purchased a base Vibe last Tuesday off of a local dealer's lot. It is Satellite with Graphite interior. Options are ABS, automatic transmission, front side impact air bags, Moon and Tunes, alloy wheels, power and security packages. I have been pleased with the firmness of the ride and the low volume of wind and road noise so far. I agree with some of the other folks that the engine is a bit noisy under acceleration, but it quiets down greatly when the vehicle reaches cruising speed. Another small dislike is that the cruise control indicator in the instrument cluster comes on when the system is turned on rather than when the cruise control is engaged. My Vibe averaged about 28 mpg on the first tank of gas (about half city and half hilly highway).
The Kansas City area dealers had anywhere from 0 to 5 Vibes when I started looking early in March (according to the GM BuyPower web site). About half of the Vibes listed locally were Satellite, and rest were a mix of the rest of the colors (except Envy - no one had that yet). The Vibe that I purchased was listed on GM BuyPower as being in the dealer's inventory about 2 weeks before they actually received it. My dealer had sold another one the same day that I picked mine up, and I know another local dealer that has already sold 4.
The NUMMI plant were the Vibe is manufactured has always had a very good reputation for quality. The Matrix and the Vibe share a lot of components, and I suspect that they will be pretty similar in reliability.
The Prizm and Corolla were virtually identical in both quality and reliability, and many of both were built at NUMMI. Still, a used Prizm commands quite a bit less money than does a Corolla. And, strangely enough, in the last years, a Prizm cost more new than did a comparably equipped Corolla. Until the last couple of years, the Prizm was hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars less. Pricing cars is more of an art than a science.
As for holding value, price a 1 to 2 year old Honda, particularly Accords. I bet you will find the percentage of value retained to be MUCH higher than a Corvette the same age.
dlh3 : Congrats on being the first Vibe owner here! What kind of deal did you get on it (price, finance rate ect.) ?
johnclineii : I've seen 2 year old Corvettes with 10-15K on them selling for about 90-95% of original list. You won't see that on any Accord.
joelis : Vibe is all Toyota mechanicals but the interior and exterior is all Pontiac. There is quite a bit of GM design in the car. It's too bad it doesn't have a GM 2.2L Ecotec power train as the Toyota 1.8L isn't all that great.
What's the big deal about the ecotec engine? It has 10 more Hp and a little more torque but at a gas mileage penalty. Real world driving would not show a huge difference. Besides, part of the Vibe's selling feature is that it uses Toyota mechanicals, thus lure some import buyers into the Pontiac showroom. The Corolla 1.8L engine has had an excellent rep. over the years for reliability.
Take an Alero or a Saturn L-series for a drive and you will see. The 2.2L Ecotec only has 10 hp more, but it has 150 ft lb of torque. It also runs much more quietly than the 1.8L in the Matrix/Vibe. It's not the best 4 banger in the world, but it's definitely one of the better ones. It was co-developed by GM and Lotus and will be in most GM small cars within the next few years.
>The highest VIN I have seen so far is ~6500. Assuming that is a reliable way of determining production.
That's not quite accurate....
Also, as said above, the Corolla and Vibe are running down the same production line. Same machines and people are doing the production. Quality is a very big deal.
The 1.8L used in the Vibe and Matrix is the same motor used in the Corolla... the Corolla is an extremely quiet car. Probably better insulated. The 1.8L is a proven, reliable motor. Dindak is only repeating was said by Jim Kenzie in the Toronto Star. It is no secret that Mr. Kenzie does like Toyota Corp. The feud between them has been on for some time. Please take his (Kenzie's) comments in this review (concerning the engine) with a grain of salt. Before reading the article, I wondered if GM's Vibe would get a fair shake. The bottom line is, there is nothing wrong with the 1.8L in the Vibe. I would rather have it than the 2.2L and obviously so does GM.
I have no idea what Mr. Kenzie said, I never saw his review of the Matrix.. My comments are from driving the car, and my wife made the comment after her test also that the engine was a bit loud.
No doubt the engine is reliable and the noise is certainly at an acceptable level, it just more noise than I'm used to. I think many younger buyers will probably like that a lot. Maybe I'm just getting old huh?
Last two Matrix buyers on the Matrix Board were Scott31 in #911 and Tomkist in #921. Scott31 ordered a XR with MSRP of $21,059, comparable Vibe would be $21,090 (without Auto Dimming Mirror n/a on Vibe). Tomkist bought a XR with MSRP of $19,642, comparable Vibe would be $20,075 (With Cruise Control and 6-Speaker Sound System $390 for XR would total $20,032 if Tomkist got them.
it would be helpful to have an additional discussion on the Hatchbacks or Wagons board for both Matrix and Vibe enthusiasts combined.
I realize you can also compare notes with each other in the separate Matrix and Vibe discussions, but I also thought creating a combined discussion specifically for this purpose might be helpful.... Let me know what you think.
Also, if you do like the idea, any suggestions for a title... "Matrix & Vibe comparison" or on a more friendly note "Matrix & Vibe Enthusiasts (Shared info.)" Thanks for your input.
My buying experience won't be much help to anyone. I was able to use GMS pricing, a trade-in, GM Card earnings and an Oldsmobile Owner loyalty certificate to bring the final cost down to a level where I could just write a check for the remainder rather than financing it.
I wonder if the combination of a relatively open cargo area and the hard cargo floor finish (rather than carpet) might be the source of the noise complaints.
Stephen who's half deaf anyway, drives a 12-year-old 240sx, and probably would think a diesel Ram 3500 Dually pulling a trailer is quiet enough.
Here is a March 20, 2002 review by Greg Wilson on his experience of driving the AWD Vibe from Calgary to Vancouver going through the snow, sand and rocks.
But the important thing is that even though the MSRP of the Matrix was $21,059, and the MSRP of a comparable Vibe would be $21,090. I paid only $19,000ish for the Matrix, whereas the Vibe would be $1300 more after discounting.
Does anybody know why the Vibe cost more than the Matrix, around $1700 more? Each model as the same features and options but the Vibe for some reason is quite a bit more.
I didn't think it was even possible to compare a Vibe and Matrix that have EXACTLY the same equipment. For instance: roof rack, single colour, differing audio equipment, etc.
And this answer is not meant to be sarcastic. The prices are different because different companies set them--companies that have different costs, different incentive programs (if any), and different profit expectations.
Let's look at that. Toyota and its dealers have a reputation for not dealing off MSRP that much. The cars sell as soon as they are put on the lot, typically. So the Toyota retail price is much closer to the final transaction price. GM, on the other hand, runs incentives frequently. It is the company that started (and drug Ford and Chrysler with them kicking and screaming) the $2002 Keep America Rolling Rebates (which I don't think apply to Vibe). It also has a large credit card incentive program. All this must be factored into the prices. Plenty of room to deal is normally built into GM's retail prices, as a rule.
Different costs? Matrices are built in Canada, where the Canadian dollar is at all time lows against the US dollar. So, in the US, there is a currency advantage on the Toyota. In Canada, shipping costs would be less on the Toy. Also, more Matrices can be built than can Vibes, as the Vibe plant, NUMMI, in Fremont, California, also builds pickups (or at least their beds), Corollas and Japan-bound Matrix/Vibes (actually Vibes) called Toyota Voltz. Less supply, assuming demand is constant (which it is not), means a higher retail cost and more profit for the sellers.
Too, the Matrix assumes a cameo performance at many Toyota dealers, whereas most Pontiac dealers are dual lined with other GM products and the new Vibe is nowhere near as important to the average dealer. It must share the limelight with anything from Cadillacs to Impalas to Grand Prixs to, not for long, Oldsmobiles.
And initial pricing for the Vibe in the USA was set before the Matrix, I believe. GM may at some point either not raise prices as quickly as Toyota, or change equipment levels, or if the car doesn't sell rapidly, increase incentives or have lease deals. I doubt that happens any time soon.
Many Pontiac customers would NOT shop for a Toyota (I don't want no furrn car...), and many Toyota customers would not shop a Vibe even if they know the car is virtually identical (I want Toyota quality, not GM junk). So, cross shopping is not a major factor. Many customers at this point probably do not even realise the cars share so much in common.
Finally, Toyota doesn't have the advantage of traffic coming into the dealership to see the Toyota Aztek!
"As for holding value, price a 1 to 2 year old Honda, particularly Accords. I bet you will find the percentage of value retained to be MUCH higher than a Corvette the same age."
Talk about opposite sides of the spectrum! Anyway, not that anyone probably cares what you think, but you are wrong regardless. The most fair way to look at this is by ALG Residual values, who are the driving force in setting lease residuals each quarter.
2 year residual on a 2002 Corvette Z06 = 63% 2 year res on a 2002 Honda Accord 4dr EX = 61%
There are very few vehicles that are better than 63% (like Porsche 911, MB SLK320, BMW Z8), but all of these are in the $100k range.
The only Honda better than 63% is the S2000 (70% - WOW).
And remember that these are Average Year Round percentages, meaning that if you tried to buy a 2 year old Accord now or 6 months from now, it will probably be the same, whereas, the value of a Corvette goes up considerably at this time of the year.
Also, demand is a big factor too. You can find an Accord on every street corner, but its hard to find the exact corvette that you might be looking for (with an owner who is actually willing to sell).
joelis : I love Corvettes. Can't wait till I can afford one (used of course).
turban1 : There are more standard options on the Vibe and Pontiac has more of a dealer markup than Toyota does. It's very difficult to compare exactly as some things are even available on Matrix (ex. ABS or power windows on base car).
Thanks. Still, I doubt anyone is cross shopping a Corvette and a Vibe. And, the point is still that the Vibe is apt to depreciate more quickly than will the Matrix. Only time will tell!
I agree on the title: " Vibe and Matrix Enthusiasts " as most of the post are about both cars, not only the Vibe. Personaly, it is more a Wagon than a hatchback but then...
Hi theduke- Thanks for the feedback. Any other opinions? I will go ahead and start up new this "Vibe and Matrix..." in the next day, or so, and we'll see how it goes....
Btw, just curious. Do most of the people here consider this vehicle to be a more of a wagon than a hatchback? In other words, what board are you entering this discussion from? This will help me determine which board to start this new discussion on. Depending on how it takes off, we can eventually link it to both boards. Thanks.
I know these will change during the next quarter adjustment to be more similar to each other, but for right now, anyone caring about resale or a better initial lease payment should go with a Matrix:
2 year residual on 2003 Vibe GT = 55% 2 year residual on 2003 Matrix XRS = 63%
Geez, does Pontiac have a bad reputation or what?
Bottom line is that I wouldn't lease a Vibe until at least the beginning of next month when the numbers adjust again. Even then it might be iffy.
If that is correct Toyota's is too high and Pontiacs is too low.
Re-sale is a supply-demand game and if Pontiac's production numbers are low (which they seem to be) and demand is as high or higher than Matrix, Vibe's re-sale will be better.
Sadly, the vibe will be judged with other Pontiacs, not the Toyota it is. They should be the same but won't be. John, I think you are wrong. Lots of people will cross shop these 2 cars - one would have to be brain dead not to see all the Toyo emblems on the engine etc. I think prices will converge later this year.
But, most people did NOT cross shop Corolla and Prizm. GM and Toyota customers are far different from each other than most of us would think.
I do not see the prices converging. The difference in incentive levels alone will keep the Pontiac's nominal prices higher than the Toyota. Not to mention the current currency advantage Toyota has, since its Matrices are built in Canada, where the US Dollar is strong indeed!
Where they are built is irrelevant. The Camry's built in the U.S. and sold here cheaper than in the U.S. more than offset any gains just like the Impalas built here offset Vibe sales. It's a zero sum game.
I agree, I don't think there will be much cross shopping. The cars look very different and many people may be unaware they are even related.
I've yet to read a review of either the vibe or matrix that didn't explain they are virtually identical under their skins. I think people will be aware of it. Don't know if they'll care though.
Comments
The dealer told me my Vibe is in transit. I should have it early next week. I am lucky they have one in transit. Otherwise factory order will take about 8~10 weeks. I used all of my GM points (worth about $2,900) for the Vibe. In future, I will use Citibank's driver's edge card instead of new GM card. Only get 2% benefit from driver's edge card but you can use it for all kinds of cars--include used cars.
I saw Aerio the other day in a mall parking lot. Front looking is cute. Reak looking is a little different. I believe the market for this kind of higher wagon, or sport wagan, or CUV, whatever they call it, will be good. Van is too big for small families and no fun to drive. Most of SUV are too expensive. I almost go for a Saturn Vue this time but my wife prefer Vibe.
Alden said they have one of each. Will try Fiore this afternoon.
mnontanafan : Not sure why these Vibes are so scarce. I wish they would get some numbers out before they start advertising. Very frustrating to see 1 car for testing only.
Checked with my friend - his Celica GTS cost 32K Canadian plus taxes 2 years ago (it has leather, which top Vibe/Matrix doe not). Nevertheles, these cars are competitive in price to the Celica.
Many say the Vibe looks better, but there aren't as many at dealers, and they definitely are more expensive to start with while probably being worth less than the Toy just a few months from now.
Perhaps, as has been said before, the pricing difference is to allow GM room for its traditional incentives, but it may instead push customers to the friendly, local Toyota dealer (or even the unfriendly, local Toyota dealer getting MSRP for Matrices!)
johnclineii : Nothing depreciates less than a Corvette. Of course most people can't afford one.
I did actually seem my first Vibe on the road. It was a base with aluminum wheels. A 30-35 year old woman was driving it. She was wearing a business suit. Is the Vibe / Matrix a chick car? Everyone I've seen driving these things are women!
So Where are all the Vibes going? Are they that behind in production compared to the MAtrix?
I have a C5 (summer car) and an LHS (winter car), and my wife drives a leased Expedition (big mistake car - well, at least she got it out of her system now).
The lease on the Expy is up in a couple of months and we have been looking to rectify this mistake on a more reasonable vehicle choice for her. She needs something that can occasionally haul a few Design supplies for her clients.
Minivans are out (enough said), and we don't want something that looks like dad's old estate station wagon. She originally was interested in an Aztek (ouch), and actually managed to drag me to the dealer to look at one when we saw the new Vibe GT sitting in the showroom. We both went right to it, and at the same time said "what a cool car!". Now, we can probably afford most cars out there today, but we don't want to unnecessarily give donations to a car company (ie. Expy mistake) for no good reason. Also, I am very biased against imports, so we just focus on the big 3.
My point is that this car appeals to many different types of buyers and I think it will be a big seller. I just hope it drives well. That GT was sold, so we couldn't take it for a test.
Dindak - I wish I could agree with you that Corvettes hold their value well, but these days, I don't think anything is doing very well. I don't even want to know how much the value of my 2001 has dropped in one year. Doesn't matter though, because I never plan to get rid of it anyway. (maybe thats why they hold their value?)
Is it a Chick Car? - hmmmm... I would guess that more women than men are going to buy one. But, I'll definitely still drive it once in while (which is more than I could say if she ever bought an Aztek...).
Later...
I don't really care about the chick car thing, more of an observation. I like the Vibe, but my wife is luke warm at best.
As for Corvettes, I love them so I look at the prices all the time. They definitely hold their value well if they are taken care of and depending on the model year. Very collectible. You are right, if/when I get one I will likely never sell it.
Matrix + Toyota's reputation for quality and reliability.
Matrix - Lack of body side molding to protect the beautiful job they did on the sheet work.
Matrix - Lack of a roof rack.
Vibe + Side molding.
Vibe + Roof rack.
Vibe - The left-over Aztec cladding.
Vibe - GM's lack of reputation for quality and
reliability.
Dindak - no order placed yet. With the other two cars in the garage, we have lots of time to wait out the initial rush and let things settle down a bit (as long as it stops snowing by May, so the Vette can come out).
The Kansas City area dealers had anywhere from 0 to 5 Vibes when I started looking early in March (according to the GM BuyPower web site). About half of the Vibes listed locally were Satellite, and rest were a mix of the rest of the colors (except Envy - no one had that yet). The Vibe that I purchased was listed on GM BuyPower as being in the dealer's inventory about 2 weeks before they actually received it. My dealer had sold another one the same day that I picked mine up, and I know another local dealer that has already sold 4.
The NUMMI plant were the Vibe is manufactured has always had a very good reputation for quality. The Matrix and the Vibe share a lot of components, and I suspect that they will be pretty similar in reliability.
As for holding value, price a 1 to 2 year old Honda, particularly Accords. I bet you will find the percentage of value retained to be MUCH higher than a Corvette the same age.
johnclineii : I've seen 2 year old Corvettes with 10-15K on them selling for about 90-95% of original list. You won't see that on any Accord.
joelis : Vibe is all Toyota mechanicals but the interior and exterior is all Pontiac. There is quite a bit of GM design in the car. It's too bad it doesn't have a GM 2.2L Ecotec power train as the Toyota 1.8L isn't all that great.
I wonder if part of the appeal to Toyota customers is that the Matrix has a Pontiac interior!
That's not quite accurate....
Also, as said above, the Corolla and Vibe are running down the same production line. Same machines and people are doing the production. Quality is a very big deal.
No doubt the engine is reliable and the noise is certainly at an acceptable level, it just more noise than I'm used to. I think many younger buyers will probably like that a lot. Maybe I'm just getting old huh?
;-)
dongdong- Congrats as well! Sorry, I missed your previous message... otherwise I would have spoken sooner. Have you taken delivery yet?
Happy motoring everyone!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
I've already seen 3 new Corollas and 2 or 3 new Matrices...
But no Vibes. What gives?
Maybe the pricing!
I realize you can also compare notes with each other in the separate Matrix and Vibe discussions, but I also thought creating a combined discussion specifically for this purpose might be helpful.... Let me know what you think.
Also, if you do like the idea, any suggestions for a title... "Matrix & Vibe comparison" or on a more friendly note "Matrix & Vibe Enthusiasts (Shared info.)" Thanks for your input.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
Stephen
who's half deaf anyway, drives a 12-year-old 240sx, and probably would think a diesel Ram 3500 Dually pulling a trailer is quiet enough.
Here is a March 20, 2002 review by Greg Wilson on his experience of driving the AWD Vibe from Calgary to Vancouver going through the snow, sand and rocks.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/drivethevibe.htm
And this answer is not meant to be sarcastic. The prices are different because different companies set them--companies that have different costs, different incentive programs (if any), and different profit expectations.
Let's look at that. Toyota and its dealers have a reputation for not dealing off MSRP that much. The cars sell as soon as they are put on the lot, typically. So the Toyota retail price is much closer to the final transaction price. GM, on the other hand, runs incentives frequently. It is the company that started (and drug Ford and Chrysler with them kicking and screaming) the $2002 Keep America Rolling Rebates (which I don't think apply to Vibe). It also has a large credit card incentive program. All this must be factored into the prices. Plenty of room to deal is normally built into GM's retail prices, as a rule.
Different costs? Matrices are built in Canada, where the Canadian dollar is at all time lows against the US dollar. So, in the US, there is a currency advantage on the Toyota. In Canada, shipping costs would be less on the Toy. Also, more Matrices can be built than can Vibes, as the Vibe plant, NUMMI, in Fremont, California, also builds pickups (or at least their beds), Corollas and Japan-bound Matrix/Vibes (actually Vibes) called Toyota Voltz. Less supply, assuming demand is constant (which it is not), means a higher retail cost and more profit for the sellers.
Too, the Matrix assumes a cameo performance at many Toyota dealers, whereas most Pontiac dealers are dual lined with other GM products and the new Vibe is nowhere near as important to the average dealer. It must share the limelight with anything from Cadillacs to Impalas to Grand Prixs to, not for long, Oldsmobiles.
And initial pricing for the Vibe in the USA was set before the Matrix, I believe. GM may at some point either not raise prices as quickly as Toyota, or change equipment levels, or if the car doesn't sell rapidly, increase incentives or have lease deals. I doubt that happens any time soon.
Many Pontiac customers would NOT shop for a Toyota (I don't want no furrn car...), and many Toyota customers would not shop a Vibe even if they know the car is virtually identical (I want Toyota quality, not GM junk). So, cross shopping is not a major factor. Many customers at this point probably do not even realise the cars share so much in common.
Finally, Toyota doesn't have the advantage of traffic coming into the dealership to see the Toyota Aztek!
What is Standard Equipment in the wags for the Vibe GT vs the Matrix XRS
Roof Rack
Rear Seat Heater Ducts
Block Heater
Side Airbags
ABS (the Base model for Toyota does not have this)
Cladding (?)
Other differences:
I think both of them have the same Monsoon Stereo System which is from Delco (?). Toyota does not specify the name of it's stereo on its brochure.
As for the cargo space..hmmm, how come Vibe has 19.2 cubic feet (the website has 24.6) vs Matrix's 15.1 cubic feet.
Vibe has a height of 62.2 vs Matrix which is 61. And I think the Vibe has a higher ground clearance ?
For the security system, it's standard for the XRS but not for the Vibe GT...right ?
Talk about opposite sides of the spectrum! Anyway, not that anyone probably cares what you think, but you are wrong regardless. The most fair way to look at this is by ALG Residual values, who are the driving force in setting lease residuals each quarter.
2 year residual on a 2002 Corvette Z06 = 63%
2 year res on a 2002 Honda Accord 4dr EX = 61%
There are very few vehicles that are better than 63% (like Porsche 911, MB SLK320, BMW Z8), but all of these are in the $100k range.
The only Honda better than 63% is the S2000 (70% - WOW).
And remember that these are Average Year Round percentages, meaning that if you tried to buy a 2 year old Accord now or 6 months from now, it will probably be the same, whereas, the value of a Corvette goes up considerably at this time of the year.
Also, demand is a big factor too. You can find an Accord on every street corner, but its hard to find the exact corvette that you might be looking for (with an owner who is actually willing to sell).
turban1 : There are more standard options on the Vibe and Pontiac has more of a dealer markup than Toyota does. It's very difficult to compare exactly as some things are even available on Matrix (ex. ABS or power windows on base car).
Personaly, it is more a Wagon than a hatchback but then...
Btw, just curious. Do most of the people here consider this vehicle to be a more of a wagon than a hatchback? In other words, what board are you entering this discussion from? This will help me determine which board to start this new discussion on. Depending on how it takes off, we can eventually link it to both boards. Thanks.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
2 year residual on 2003 Vibe GT = 55%
2 year residual on 2003 Matrix XRS = 63%
Geez, does Pontiac have a bad reputation or what?
Bottom line is that I wouldn't lease a Vibe until at least the beginning of next month when the numbers adjust again. Even then it might be iffy.
Re-sale is a supply-demand game and if Pontiac's production numbers are low (which they seem to be) and demand is as high or higher than Matrix, Vibe's re-sale will be better.
Like John said, time will tell.
I do not see the prices converging. The difference in incentive levels alone will keep the Pontiac's nominal prices higher than the Toyota. Not to mention the current currency advantage Toyota has, since its Matrices are built in Canada, where the US Dollar is strong indeed!
I agree, I don't think there will be much cross shopping. The cars look very different and many people may be unaware they are even related.