Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

stever

I think this is the story you saw. MB now requires synthetic oils but there's no such thing as MB branded motor oil, so no tie-in problems.



Steve

Host

SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

2k_impala_ls

Because my TB had the first 300 miles @ 65-70 on the highway (not by choice, dealer swap) you asked about oil usage. I checked the oil and it is 1/2 qt low and my mileage is 1,100. I am going in on Wens. for the airbag recall check, should I mention the oil use?

gam2

Impala,

Did you check the level when you first picked it up? It could have been a quart low at that time and you've used no oil. Check it at another 1000 miles ans see how it looks.

GAM

azshaw

My A/C RANDOMLY go out. It usually will stop working for about 5 or 10 minutes then go back on. The A/C light stays on all while this happens. This weekend, I had it go out on a trip for about 1 hour, but now it's working just fine. Also, the # 4 speed fan blower is out. The dealer ordered parts. Of course everytime I take it to the dealer it works fine. Anyone have any ideas as to what the problem is???

tblazed

I will agree with GAM - just watch the oil usage. You need to get a baseline measurement to start with. You might want to get the dealer to top off the oil and have the dealer keep record of oil usage. That's the process you will have to go through trying to claim any excessive oil use anyway. I drove my TB back from Oklahoma 210 miles and tried to vary the engine speed as much as I could traffic permitting. I went ahead and changed my oil at 1400 miles and it was down btwn 1/4 and 1/2 qt but that was with the factory fill oil I presume was the 5W-30 stuff. Sure seemed thin anyway. I put in QS 10W-30 and now 1800+ mi later it's barely off the full mark. BTW the 10W-30 made the engine a little quieter on cold-start and it is OK to use according to the manual as long as the ambient temp doesn't go below 0°F.

steve_ HOST Thanks for the link to the story. The news media has a tendency to skew stories sometimes. They did say something about a "special Mercedes oil" in the story I heard.

tblazed

Hey Tim
What would really set off the "look" would be a pair of nice Borla exhaust tips exiting out the back! When are you going to do that and give us a review? If I had a neighbor with a lift in his garage I would really be tempted! Buying is one thing but getting installed properly is another matter altogether.

azshaw, what A/C system do you have - manual or automatic? I have the manual system and usually no problem. Cools down quick even in 95-99°F Texas heat and humidity but I aways leave it on recirculate. It always remembers the recirc. setting after stopping and restarting. Only minor "glitch" mine seems to do is after baking in the sun all day and the interior temp is at 122°F or so as measured with my handy pocket digital thermometer stuck into the center air outlet, the temp will get down to maybe 85°F then something will cut out for less than a minute, the temp will go back up maybe 4 or 5° then it will resume cooling 'til it gets down to 45-49°. Maybe the high-pressure cut-out I don't know. It is having to work hard during this cool-down to remove all that heat. But all-in-all one of the best A/C systems I have experienced. Yes I have tried using outside air during the initial cool-down but it simply gets cooler quicker removing heat from the dryer interior air than having to cool down the humid outside air.

jurassic3k

Does anyone know if there are any leather GM handles that would fit on my 02 Envoy?

tlauro

Okay, so I'm putting up images everyday, but hey, I'm happy with the new look

Enjoy.

tim

http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp/ltz_photos

Main Page at http://www.timlauro.com

ylab

Somebody wanted the link to the news article for the Mercedes Oil management class action settlement. I stumbled across a link talking about their extending the warranty to 10 years or 150k miles for their SUV due to not telling owners they must use Synthetic oil when relying on the oil wear sensor. The link is below:

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_3mercedesaug30.story?coll=all-news-hed

Ray

racoonlodge

Scottc454: 70' Chevelle...
Hey Scott, I've been away for a few weeks and trying to catch-up on all messages! Anyone came across your message about the '70 chevelle being the best car GM made...Now I know why part of your name is "454"!. I agree with you on the "best" car scenario, I has a 70 Chevelle (Silver with dual black stripes), it was a 396 (aka 402) equipped with the "cowl induction"!. sorta miss those 375 HP days,
but enjoying my 4500 lbs LTZ now!

racoonlodge

Had a problem with my LTZ while on vacation in the mountains Of New York. My LTZ ran fine until one morning we got into it and it was completely dead! No lights, so sound, no nothing!. Of course, I couldn't use Onstar, so I called them!
They had service to me in 20 minutes, jumping my LTZ. Once on, we checked for any items left on,(interior lights, hood lights) but nothing! Even if an interior light was left on, wouldn't it still be on when the battery was jumped?. Took the truck to the nearest Chevy dealer and they ran a "heavy load" test on the battery, alternator, etc., nothing Found there either. Sounds peculiar, but haven't had any problems since. I thought this vehicle has some "battery run down protection"?(maybe that's bad!). Anyway, I do have to say, Onstar was polite and very helpful for us, getting service and directing us to the nearest dealer.

bruser1

Well I just had my first encounter with the sizzler. Yep, I'm talking about the dripping of condensation from the A/C's evaporator. Left home taking some movies back to Blockbuster and noticed an unusual smell, like that of rotten eggs and sewer waste, got back home and when I stepped out I heard all this sizzling and popping. Looked under the vehicle and saw the water (condensation) draining. Is it possible the line or tray has an algae buildup creating a flow restriction in the line? Heck this LTZ has only 6800 miles. Guess I'll try some algaecide on the coils unless someone has had found a diffrent treatment or cause.
Bruce

ralfo

I just brought my Envoy in for an oil change last Friday and had them check the front end 'cause I was feeling a slight thumping through the steering wheel. Turns out the stabilizer bar is worn!

This truck only has 27K miles on it and it's never been off road, how the hell would this wear out this quick? Anyone out there have this problem???

coralreef_nv

I took delivery of '02 bravada on 11/30/01. No problems until June 02. Then the SES light came on, it was revving to about 5000 RPM before shifting, and while driving down a city street at about 30-35, the speedometer was pegged at 95 MPH. i took it to the dealer and they said they solved all problems by reprogramming the PCM.

I then left on a 5500 mile trip from Las Vegas to IN-MN-SD-WY. During the trip the a/c went out 3 times. each time it would work the next day.

When I returned to Vegas it went out 2 more times. the second time i was close to the dealer and their service people felt the hot air blowing thru the vents. they worked on it for 2 days and said there was nothing wrong with the a/c. of course, they weren't the ones driving around in 110 degree temps with no a/c.

After getting it back, it went out 2 more times so i called and they didn't have an appointment for over a week. it went out two more times and i took it in the second time and they offered to take the car even tho the appointment was still 2 days away. on the way to the dealer i called Onstar since that had been mentioned here. Onstar could detect nothing wrong with the vehicle. the dealer evacuated the a/c and refilled it.

I got the car back on thurs and the a/c failed again on fri. they told me to bring it in on monday. This time the service mgr. took it for a drive and the a/c failed for him, so i guess they finally believed me. they finally called the tech line and GM told them that the refrigerant they were using actually expands in high heat (it has routinely been over 110 this summer). the expansion causes the pressure to get high enough to shut off the a/c. they suggested putting in 1/2 lb. less of the coolant. the service report says they recharged the system with 1.4 lbs.

This past weekend we drove down to Phoenix. a 620 mile round trip. the temps were over 105 the whole time. i am happy to report that we had no problems with the a/c.

I hope the solution to the a/c problem is that simple. Except for the a/c problem, i really enjoy driving this car.

dave

envoy_xl_in_pa

I have an '02 Envoy XL, and I felt a similar clunk/thump in my steering wheel when going over bumps while turning. Turns out that the front end sway bar links are worn. My XL only has 3800 miles on it. I have a friend with one also. He has had these links replaced twice, and a third set is on order. His dealer gave him a little more info. Apparently, most of the front end suspension parts are outsourced (not an uncommon practice among auto makers). However, the General is having a ton of trouble with these sway bar links. I am not very technical when it comes to cars, but maybe the worn links caused your problem too? My friend's dealer tells him that they are changing several sets of these a week.

gam2

Pardon my ranting but.......Good grief! What kind of crap does GM build! Sway bars,air conditioning,
etc,etc,etc. I know many of you have not had problems, but do you think it will stay that way for long? My Bravada has already been in for 9 issues, (7 have been fixed) and is about to go in for 5 more (defective sun visor, wind noise, driver side window doesn't close aove 45 mph, wandering mirrors, and paint flaking off the wheel center caps). Yeah, there are first year problems, but if GM hasn't figured out how to make a sunvisor or how to paint something by now, we are all in serious trouble. GM used to build the best transmissions in the world, but mine sucks, plain and simple, even with the updates.
The design of this vehicle rates a B+, execution get a F! And people wonder why the Honda Pilot is selling over list price.

Thanks, I fell much better.

GAM

cmack4

I also find it hard to believe that the stabilizer bar itself is wearing. Anyone got pictures of the locations? I didn't see any signs of wear on my Bravada, but at least if I had a pic, I'd know what to look for.

On a side note, I noticed that my wheel centers were yellowing/greening on the inner circle as was mentioned here earlier. In fact one actually started flaking the clear coat on the center ring. I think the earlier post attributed the color change to the paint being too thin. This doesn't appear to be the case. It seems that a clear coat is applied just to the center portion and that it is trapping moisture and separating from the paint. The moisture is also trapping dirt in between the surfaces causing the color change. I went to the dealer today, and they offered to replace all 4 under warranty. If anyone wants a picture, I'll gladly take one.

mdey

I have added transmission fluid to my TB LS twice (21,000 miles on it). The first time was shortly before a 5,500-mile trip at about 11,000 miles. It measured to the bottom of the cross-hatch area and I added 4 oz. of Dexron III to bring the level to the top. This weekend I checked it again, about 10,000 miles have passed, and it checked well below the cross-hatch area. It took 8 oz. of fluid to top it off. I can find no sign of fluid leaking, I smell nothing, and the transmission behaves normally. Anyone else losing transmission fluid?

tblazed

I could see possibly the bushings wearing over time, but the whole BAR? Strange.

BTW after seeing that dealer "wish list" of maintenance items I checked with gmpartsdirect.com for the air filter: ACDelco #15036141 A2014C Air Filter ELEMENT "list" $27.02, "dealer cost" $22.65, "your price" $16.18. Plus s/h of course. Still, not too bad.

fznfish

I put my rear seats down so that I can put my dog kennel in the back to carry my Labrador Retriever. Recently, I noticed that my upholstery in the middle seat has a worn spot. It's being caused by the 12V outlet cover on the rear console. It has a raised lip that rubs on the seat. The 2003's have a flat cover. However, the dealer couldn't figure out how to remove the 12V outlet to install a new one. Has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone know how to remove the outlet in order to install a new cover?

tblazed

So it does that on the extended models too, eh? A known problem from several thousand posts back. I also noticed that if CDs are put into the console they fit lengthwise and you can't see the label on the edge! I suggested then to rearrange the CD holder to hold the CD jewel cases vertically so the titles can be read, and shorten the length of the console accordingly to prevent the 12V jack from damaging the seat. Sounds like they "fixed" the problem all us 2002 owners are stuck with by making a different cover on the '03s.

rpols5

I have had the same problem. I could have sworn it was a suspension noise, but after reading some posts I concentrated on the hood. The issue with the hood bumpers is that if you raise them too much it ruins the hood fit. I found a different solution, a little WD40 on the hood latch. Went away months ago and hasnt come back. A heavy grease wold work also.

babyshoes

Cald into northstar. they found a code issue and arrange and appointment for tomorrow.

I hope they get the A/C fixed. Luckly it was only 78 out.

dragonhead08

This is nonsense. Finally picked up may car after 2 weeks at the dealer for 1.) Tailgate housing 2.) ABS, 4wd service light on 3.) No power at passing speeds. So I finally go to pick up the car yesterday. First the car was so filthy so I couldnt even see the gasket around the housing. I ask the service advisor what they did for the tailgate. He tells me they repainted the entire tailgate and installed a new gasket. I asked about the warning lights and he says it was a glich from me installing aftermarket bulbs and burning out a circuit panel so it tripped out the computer. Thats what I had to pay 180.00 for. Then he says they installed a new module to fix the downshift problem. I say ok, and get in my car. First thing, mechanics with oily hands should wash their hands before driving a customers car with tan interior.The steering wheel was covered in grease . HELLO!!! what kind of moron are you guys? I'm already irritated at this point so I say forget it and decide to clean it when I get home. So half way home I turn on the ac, guess what? the fan isnt working and all of a sudden the ABS, Check 4wd, and parking brake light are ALL ON!! And how convenient that its 5:45 and my dealers already shut down for the day. So, I try to compose myself so I dont get into some sort of road rage on the way home. I'm finally home and I go to clean the tailgate. Theres wax residue EVERYWHERE!!! I take a close look at the gasket and I'm thinking this dosnt look new. I take a closer look and see in the corner where I had applied some touch up paint where the housing had worn the paint thru. Plus, I saw these pinholes that were there from the first time the painted the tailgate back in april. Turns out there was no paint job done, all they did was tweak the gasket a little to cover the area where it wore through, and then gave it a little polish. So after two weeks I get charged $180.00, and I get a polish of the tailgate, and now my vent system dosnt work. Number one, this car blows! 6 months and I have taken it in 5 times. Plus my dealer obviously could care less about fixing my car right. I really want to put the name of this dealer up here but I'm afraind I may be violating some sort of rule here. I need sympathy here. AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! I should have bought a Pathfinder.

stever

Nah, you can tell us who your dealer is. Sounds like you need to call a zone manager or someone higher up the food chain in the dealer network - jeeze!

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

tblazed

Dang, dragonhead! I'd be absolutely demanding 1) my $180 back since their diagnosis did not fix the warning light problem and 2) GM buy back the vehicle with all the problems you have had. Just saw GM's new "0%" financing ad on CNBC and applies to all '03 models except Saturn Hummer and Saab. They ought to make good on your faith that you went into the original deal expecting a reliable, reasonably trouble-free vehicle and exchange yours on a new '03. I notice you are in Calif. doesn't CA have pretty tough lemon laws? Aren't there any other Chevy dealers around you to deal with? I have a choice of at least 5 or 6 here in D-FW within 10 miles of home. And they are generally open 7-7 5 days a week and usually at least part of the day Sat.There is at least one I will never again set foot in from past experiences well prior to buying my TB. BTW still have not had to take my TB in for anything except the fuel filter retainer clip recall, but then again I took care of a few rattles and wind noises myself, realizing that every new car I have ever bought, GM or not, needed a few tweaks. ( I think the worst vehicle I have ever owned was a '83 Nissan King Cab Pickup! An incredibly cheaply built piece of junk in my opinion)

dragonhead08

Now that I have been givin permission. Do not go to this dealership. I'll be fair though and say that they did give me a good price on my TB but what good is this price if the car is unreliable. I put half the blame on the service advisor. Whenever i called to check on my car he would tell me he was going to check and he would always empasize he would call me right back. know what? not once did he ever call back. I actually called once at 8am and waited till 4pm abd he never called. I actually have a dealership closer to home that has its own bodyshop. I'm waiting on my service rep from GM to return my call from this morning. I'll see what happens.

k2rm

I had a feeling their service would be trouble. That is where I bought my Isuzu Axiom. I called several times just to ask about dealer installed options like a roofrack, they said they would call me back with a price shortly, they never did. Luckily I haven't had any problems, but my 7500 mile checkup is coming up and I will go elsewhere. Thanks for the headsup about this dealership's service department, good to know.

mhenderson1

What are the new incnetives and rebates for the 2003 SUVs particularly the Envoy. However, after reading at some the messages lately I may look elswhere.

stever

Message boards tend to attract "problem" posts - not that many people log in just to report that their rig is driving fine as expected. So keep that in the back of your mind as you read about issues - how the dealer takes care of problems is pretty important too, as you can tell from recent posts.

I'm showing some incentives for my zipcode for the Envoy on our Incentives and Rebates page. Good luck shopping!



Steve

Host

SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

envoy2002

Can you tell us what the code is/was that they found? I'm taking my Envoy into the shop tomorrow for various items and would like to include that info if possible. When my A/C went out (chronic "service department un-reproducible" problem for me), I myself called into On Star and they said they could not find anything wrong. Hmmm. I wonder what gives if they found a code for you. Thanks!

gam2

Hey dragonhead,

Maybe we should share lawyers and cut our costs
in trying to get GM to buy our vehicles back. I'm up to 14 different problems in the first 6 months!

GAM

dva10

After three trips to the dealer for rattles in the front end and the dealer telling me there was nothing wrong, i got under the car and removed the stabilizer links . The noise went away. They did replace them and the car is quiet.11000 miles on my Envoy,I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

mpovey

Can anyone tell me where to find the paint number on 2002 Trailblazer. I have a Summit White LTZ. Have checked the sticker on the inside of glove box and also the window sticker. No luck on finding part number.

richardcoulson

The hood latch behind the grill is adjustable up and down. Just loosen the three bolts and tap it down a bit and then re-tighten the bolts. Adjusting the both the two side hood bumpers and the latch will ensure a tight well aligned hood.

tblazed

Don't know where it is located on the vehicle but the code for Summit White is 50U.

mhenderson1

I understand that the majority of people post messages because they are having problems with their vehicle. However, it seems to me that GM has really botched the job on this one. When I read the posts on the Toyota 4-runner, pathfinder and MDX, hardly ever do I read of a person or persons expressing deep resentment towards a vehicle. Personally I feel that these SUVS are top notched designed vehicle, and I'm sure the first prototype put together is really still running today with probably 200K mile on it. I went to a couple of dealers in 2001 when the Envoy first came out and I remember both of them telling me that GM had taken their time to design and produce this vehicle to make sure that the quality was job #1 for the customer the first time around. Now, when I read this board there seems to be one gripe after another ever since it came out. Why would I want to pay over $30K for this vehicle. I feel that GM needs to crack down heavily on their plant workers with production quality (I'm sure Mercedes, Honda, Nissan and BMW do it), repair quality and customer service with area dealerships, and i feel that contract work (special parts and accesories) needs to be revaluated as well. I don't mean to be too harsh with GM vehicles, but come one people this is ridiculous.
On question though, has GM made any statement at all a s to how they are correcting these persistent breakdowns and problems, or do we have to wait until the following model year and spend $30k and find out for ourselves. I have a family, a house, and I work very hard for a living, and I feel do not have the time or money to purchase a brand new vehicle to have it go in for repair work in the first few months of purchase and be substantially charged for the repair work because the warranty did not cover it, and then turn around and discover that the mechanic did not do their job.

I'm sorry about the venting, but things need to change. The american auto industry can do better than this.

paisan

When GM sees posts (as I've seen tons in here) about people complaining for 2 or 3 paragraphs about how the build was bad, service was bad, etc. but then in their final paragraph go on to say "But I love this vehicle and would buy another in a heartbeat"

That last line, tells GM in essence "You can build crappy vehicles, and we'll still buy em, so don't bother making them better cause that will only hurt your bottom line"

It's a shame, but the auto-industry is just a money making venture, and they'll try to soak as much cash with as little outlay as possible.

-mike

cmack4

For what it's worth, my neighbor is leasing a 2002 MDX and can't wait to dump it! She's had several small issues and one major with it. The major one was the rear hatch randomly releases while driving. One time she was coming back from Home Depot and had 4 gallons of new paint fall out the back and spill all over the road! Some got on a new bimmer as well =( The road is still stained a nice yellow color where it happened and it's been a good 5-6 months! The dealer was finally able to fix the problem (on the third try), after a long drawn out argument where she finally convinced them that it wasn't user error. I'm not slamming the MDX, just pointing out that there are no guarantees with new vehicles. Granted, there is a lot of griping going on in this forum, but there are also a lot of happy owners out there! I myself have had several small issues with my 2002 Bravada, and gripe from time to time, but nothing that's compromised the safety of my vehicle. All of my issues were also readily taken care of by my dealer as well.

paisan

the BMW X5 self igniting vehicles or some such thing like that?

-mike

cmack4

I totally agree with what you have to say, but I'm even more of a cynic! It's not just GM. It's all auto manufacturers going after the almighty $. You see 100's of posts about Toyota sludge issues, but does it deter the Toyota zealots from going out and buying a new Toyota? Honda makes wafer thin body panels that dent when you break wind in the vicinity of them... but the same families that I know complain about them trade their current model in for the new model year. The Exploder is still the #1 selling SUV despite all the tire safety issues they've had. Personally, I don't think it's possible to change this widespread pattern, because all auto makers try to cut corners to raise profits. It really doesn't matter if we take our business elsewhere, because chances are, we'll still find something to gripe about, and someone else will just pick up our slack by buying the brand that we left. Welcome to the capitalist dream that is America!

paisan

You do have a point there.

I've found that subaru and isuzu have been pretty good with not cutting corners as well as several other "up and coming" brands that are trying to get over a bad rep in the past and gain marketshare. Hyundai and Kia I think have excellent reliability in recent years as well.

-mike

cmack4

I think with Isuzu and Subaru, they have niche markets with less competition than the mainstream, so they can afford to sacrifice a little profit because competion isn't as tight. Kia and Hyundai (and other up and coming foreign manufacturers) are probably getting their labor dirt cheap, so that's where their savings are coming from... As market share goes up and they start selling more units and depending more on local assembly, their prices will probably rise or their quality will go down. Personally, I try to buy vehicles without taking into consideration the brand or reliability factor, because I obviously think it's overhyped anyway. I look at the parts that go into the vehicle, how it drives/rides, and how well it's capabilities fit what my intentions are. Lastly I try and evaluate how long I'll have the vehicle and what the warranty is. Although it sucks to have your car in the shop, at least if you have good warranty service, you'll have a temp driver and your problems will get fixed at no cost.

fznfish

The heading should read, "2002 Trailblazer LT", not "XT". #7352 mentioned that this was a well-documented problem from several thousand messages ago. Can anyone tell me what earlier message nos. address the 12V outlet/upholstery problem?
Thanks.

paisan

You make good points. For me I need my car to be able to drive 50-2000 miles at a moments notice (I do a lot of consulting as a 2nd job) so for me reliability factor is high on the priority list.

-mike

cmack4

If edmunds would switch over to the UBB style format that a lot of other forums use, we would be able to find individual threads with a simple search. You hear me edmunds! Right now, the search functionality is pretty horrible though, and I don't have it bookmarked... hopefully someone else does, I think it was in the 3xxx's somewhere. Anyone have any luck getting their '02 models retrofitted with the new lip. I've just been using a piece of foam, so it doesn't leave the indentation on my leather. Should be a pretty simple fix!

tblazer503

The thing I wish I could have is a engine by honda, or toyota, a chevy transmission, the list goes on... I think that all automakers have their niches, and they milk them for all they can. Honda jacks their prices because they have a higher resale value, Toyota overprices because they have loyal customers. The "Big 3" have their good and bad.
There are some Acura TL owners that have had their tranny changed out 3-4x in 1-2 years, I have seen many MDX posts that are unhappy. We all should have known that there would be problems with a "clean slate" design. New engine, new frame, new suspension, new brake system, new everything, I think the only parts these things share with anything else is the Tranny and Xfer case. But then they have different mods on them too. About the only new slate vehicle I haven't heard bad things about is the Highlander, but its largely a Avalon, so it not really completely new. I personally think that the Trailblazer/Envoy/Bravada for '02 and newer beat the living crap out of the older models that they are replacing. Albeit they have their share of problems, its nothing compared to the old Blazer/Jimmy/Bravada/S-10's.
Someone once told me that no matter what a manufacturer says, they only have a limited amount of testing that can be done. They can't find all the problems with a vehicle before it is released, period. They test maybe 10-15 before they release, compared to the tens of thousands they sell now, so they watch and listen(i think). Its the price we pay for having the newest, coolest toy on the market =o). Already, they have made improvements on the '03 to make the fuel economy more stable, quiet the engine more, get 5 more hp, help the engine last longer, etc. I'll bet that the 2nd gen of the Triplets will have much more improvements....
I hope it does anyway =o)

mhenderson1

It seems to me that a large number of complaints involve taking the vehicle back a number of times to either fix the same problems or new ones occuring right after the previous one was supposedly fixed. When I look at the foreign SUV board, I guess i dont' see message after after message of the same numerous repair complaint. I also guess you can say "Welcome to the capitalist dream that is America", but this American can say, "I'm not taking this crap and will look elsewhere with my American money". We should have more pride with the product that we are putting out, just as much as the European and Japanese manufacturers are. All in all, I guess I'm just fed up with people not doing their job, not living up to their promises and trying to make it up by selling illusions. These illusions are seen on the TV advertisements and in the vehicle brochure. For some reason GM is not recognizing that we are living in an age of increased competition so they have to step it up a notch to succeed. When i look at their products now, I envision myself as my father when he bought his Buick Electra 225 in the 70's and had to constantly take it to the repair shop after the first year. In this time and age, we the consumers shouldn't have to take this. When I look at the Acura MDX, I asked myself how in the world could Acura charge dollars above MSRP for their first year MDX (and still are) and GM already giving massive rebates for their trucks (now 2003 SUVs, in which a few dealers don't even have) just to get rid of them. I guess I see GM saying "OOPS! we're sorry, we made a mistake for giving you junk".

Again, I am just venting and I guess it would be American to say that "We can agree to disagree".

cmack4

mhenderson, you are right there are definitely several reoccuring posts on the same problems here. To me that sounds like more of a dealer problem though, because GM has actually been pretty good about making fixes available for any problems that do pop up! My answer to them would be, "If you're not getting your problems solved, go elsewhere!" Many people don't realize that just because you buy a car at one dealer, doesn't mean you can't go to another for service! In many instances, that other dealer will actually fight for your service, because dealers typically make more money on the average customer through service than they do in initial profit from selling them a vehicle!

As far as the foreign versus american argument goes... For the most part, I would say that the American cars are living up to and sometimes even surpassing the foreign segment. Despite what some would have you believe, no automaker puts out a perfect car. Even Honda's number one seller, the Accord, has around 75 TSB's in the 2002 model year, with no major changes! If you think by buying foreign your escaping the problem, I've got news for you!

ficuss

From some of the first posts on this board, one theme has been repeated over and over. Repair included reseting the PCM, Reloading the software, rebooting the system etc. With the overly heavy dependence on software driven controls, transfer case motors, DIC displays and drive by wire accelerator to name a few, Why don't the triplets have a reset button? If Bill Gates had anything to do with the design they certainly would have one. If the software is as dependable as Windows 95 and crashes as often, we need a reset button. Think of all the saved trips to the dealer. When your car dies out on the freeway going 75MPH, no problemo, push the reset button and away you go. When your gauges go dead, no problemo. When your air doesn't work... you get the point. These cars were pushed out of the factory doors before being thoroughly tested. They expected us to be the BETA testers. WE have reported all the problems we found and they have indeed found fixes for some of them. As new problems arise they will also find fixes for them. One thing cannot be denied, WE FOUND THE PROBLEMS, not GM. Now GM is not a newcomer to building cars, They have just found a newer, cheaper way to final test a product.

Frank