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Comments
As far as the cold idle speed, here again this isn't any surprise. One of the goals when this engine was designed was to produce an engine that would meet federal clean engine standards without the use of an air pump. To meet these standards the engine has to warm up quickly when cold, when the emissions are high. Sounds like the old Quad 4, doesn't it?
Also, the fan noise isn't any real surprise. Have you looked at the fan? It's huge, driven off the engine (not electric), and of course clutch controlled. It needs to be, since the 4.2 is all aluminum, and heat is the #1 enemy. Adding any electric fans would take up more space, and put more load on the already highly taxed electrical system. When you complain to the dealer about the fan noise, all they do is re-program the PCM to lower the shift points. The fan is no more noisy than on the 4.3L V6 that's in the S10 chassis.
I have to tell you, I'm more than happy with the TB, it's performing as expected, it outpulls my V8 Suburban anytime, and is quiet and smooth on the highway.
As far as the trade in, that's pretty much normal now. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal recently about this very issue. With the incentives on new purchases, the market is flooded with used cars now, and resales are falling on all makes and models accordingly.
http://service.gm.com/techlink/html_en/pdf/200207-en.pdf#dst01
about how the clutch works. Shift points sound about the same as I have BTW.
I really tried to notice any driveline vibration this morning at anywhere from 55-65 MPH in "D"- NOTHING. Smooth all the way through the range. TB 2WD 3.42:1 gears. So it IS possible....
The tranny in my Bravada just hangs on to gears forever before it shifts, even with very little throttle. No other vehicle I have shifts like this. The electronics need to be modified for lower part throttle shifts.
The fan problem people have is full engagement at start-up. Sounds like a 747. Mine does it on rare occasions.
Resale? Depreciation is bad, period. Yeah, the big 3 are in a sales bind, but 0% will bite them in the end as everyone will expect it all the time. That's why you see the decontenting on '03's. I'm sure that's why GM is balking at buying my Bravada back (currently at 27 days in the shop since March). Not only would they have to give me all of my money back, they would also have to sell it for FAR less than what I paid. If it were a Honda Pilot, they could probably get near list for it, even with 6000 miles.
GAM
Besides, now they are regularly advertising 7k off MSRP in my area. That means your bravada for '03 is about 28,0 29,0ish brand spankin new. so 24k is good on a trade, that means "realistically" you have only lost 4g in a year... thats about par for the course... Honda Pilot and MDX have rediculous resale values... I don't think the Pilot will hold a great resale in comparison to the MDX, though... Oddysey is another one... simply rediculous that a 3yo oddy is going for only a few g's less than they were brand new... (ave 19k resale EX)
BTW... checked your value on the blackbook, and its high 23,0's on a trade in good cond for a AWD w/ ent center, and polished wheels.. RETAIL on it is about the high 27,0's also your miles were tall for the year(02 17k?)... also its an OLDS which isn't getting very good press by being killed around '04 timeframe... that killed your value also... my TB LS w/ 11k is blackbooked around the high 21's... which isn't too bad...
Hope this isn't an issue for a possible safety recall .. that would be bad. Darn plastic tanks.
The tranny in my Bravada just hangs on to gears forever before it shifts, even with very little throttle. No other vehicle I have shifts like this. The electronics need to be modified for lower part throttle shifts."
Actually, IMHO, this is exactly how an inline twin cam engine should be setup, so you have good throttle response without waiting for a downshift when you put a demand on it for power. My 6 cyl. inline twin cam Mercedes is set up the very same way. If this isn't acceptable then stick with a V6 or V8 which have more low end power, will shift at lower rpm's, but will most likely not have the top end power.
GAM2
I received my MO pp tax bill today; only thing listed was the 2002 Bravada; tax bill $759.00!!!!!!!!!!!
My previous year tax bill was only $450 for a 2001 Ford SuperCrew 4x4 Truck that I traded in for the Bravada (I loved that truck but had to get rid of it...my mother did not like it...long story).
The state must value the Bravada as a luxury vehicle.
Anyway, I have sold it off...not a worry for next year taxes.
There's a whole mess of other factors involved, but low end power is almost always in opposition to high end power. This engine is quite remarkable in it's flat torque curve. It has good low end and high end power.
An I-6 is better in most ways than a V-6. A lot of V-6's have balance shafts which use up some power. The main reason we see so few I-6's is that they're long and hard to fit in vehicles.
Steve, Host
And that's bad because....?
I love that sound!
Since I have about 17K on the odometer and owe slightly less than $29,000, I think that I may try to list it on the internet myself to get rid of it. Since I have access to a second vehicle, I am not in a big hurry to sell my Envoy, hence I can advertise in different cities/states. Ideally, I am thinking that once I sell my Envoy, then I will place an order for an 03 Denali or Escalade and hopefully once it arrives, GM may run a special slightly better than 3.9% for 60 months? Who knows.. maybe an x-mas special or something? Plus, with a much heftier price tag, I want to put down some major dough on the new one to keep the payment comparable to what I am currently paying for my Envoy.
Why choose a Denali/Escalade? My father has an 02 Denali with 10k on it and it has been absolutely FLAWLESS! The vehicle has a wonderful ride and with 300 hp under the hood, the gas mileage is equivalent to what I am averaging with my Envoy. Also, for 03 the Denali/Escalade comes with a redesigned interior sporting ALL of the Envoy's high tech features (driver's info center, steering wheel, tri-zone climate control, Touch Screen Navigational system) in addition to Stabilitrak, Power outside folding mirrors, power adjustable pedals, HID Headlamps (Cadillac model) and much more. Oddly enough when my Envoy is parked next to my father's Denali, they seem about the same in length, but the Denali is MUCH taller. But conversely, it seems as if the Denali is much easier to drive?
I do recognize that this is a tough decision, but I am just worried about long term reliability as well and thinking that if I can cut my losses and attempt to break even, then why not give it a shot.
I welcome any comments, questions or concerns that you all may have. Additionally, I must say "Thank Goodness for GM Employee Discount!" If it weren't for that, there is absolutely no way that I would even consider a Denali or Escalade! Whohoo!!
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
Go to the link in post #8084. Scroll down to page 3 and read the 1st 2 paragraphs under the heading "Other Diagnostic Tips". It explains how to "unlock" the fan. If you follow the procedure as stated and the fan does not disengage, then the clutch is truly bad.
This tax is always the highest when a vehicle is brand new. It drops dramatically each year for a few years, and then kind of stabilizes.
Yet another GOOD GOOD reason to purchase a used car.
Before I would buy A Denali, I would also take a close look at a top end Suburban. I like the Denali, but with that astronomical price tag I think you could do better. Again just MHO.
The second row is a bench, correct? Does it seat 3 across?
I'd like to find an SUV which seats 3 in front, and 3 in second row, with a spacious back cargo area.
No, the center console shifter/handbrake eliminates any possibility of a bench.
My neighbor has a 2002 yukon and 2003 Envoy extented model. I can tell you flat out that access to the rear seat of the Envoy is MUCH better than the Yukon... the Yukon's rear door opening is SMALL... down at foot level it is about a foot wide.
Look, I love them both, really, but we've had not a SINGLE PROBLEM with either. As a daily driver, I take the Trailblazer and leave the monster for my better half for short drives. Even last week when we went to the home depot, my wife took the Trailblazer because the rear lift height was to high in the tahoe. To each his own, but you're going to take a loss on the Envoy because NOBODY will pay retail for yours when they can buy a new one with all of the financing specials going on now. The Used car market is taking a big hit nowadays and trade-in prices are LOW. Either way, I hope you enjoy your vehicle. Remember, too, you can save a LOT of money with the tahoe over the denali if you're willing to give up a few goodies... that's where the money is made.
Or a station wagon with 4WD!
As far as MPG is concerned, the Denali has a different engine setup than the regular Yukon does and it does produce 320 hp (correction to my previous posting listing 300 hp), but I do know for a fact that my dad has been averaging around the same (or close) MPG on the freeway that I have been seeing with my Envoy. I know this for a fact because I filled the Denali up this past weekend and went on a 200 plus mile trip (resetting the computer) and I average ~ 17 mpg with the tach running under 2,000 rpms.. It's very smooth off the line and makes the bulk of its power and a much lower RPM then the Envoy. Also, passing power is a breeze!
Also, the steering and suspension setup on the Denali does outperform the Envoy IMOP! It's easier to drive, smoother riding and has excellent handling characteristics! I can take a corner in confidence! I honestly can say that you absolutely cannot compare a regular Yukon to the Yukon Denali. They are completely different animals.
As far as taking a loss for my Envoy? $10 says that I won't. You see, I have played this game over and over again, especially within the past two years. My job requires me to travel quite a bit, therefore my second vehicle racks up miles quickly, but with a little creative advertising (marketing to areas where GM plants/discounts are non-existent) I have been able to get rid of every last vehicle that I have owned without taking a loss (including the two 2001's that I owned and one 2002 vehicle as well.) I am not worried about selling my Envoy.. it may take some time, but it will happen. Additionally, I forgot to mention, IF someone does buy it, they will get the full 5 year /75,000 mile GMPP extended warranty that I purchased! OR.. if they don't want it, then GM will issue a refund for the warranty (yes.. I have done this before in the past) and I can sell the vehicle much cheaper. Heck.. I sold my 2000 Ford Explorer V-8 Limited without taking a loss and this was during the "rollover Beethoven" times! Trust me.. if there's a will, there's a way!
Burdawg: thanks for your input about the Escalade. I really didn't check to see just how well they are selling, but now that I am living in a "GM Town" here in Michigan, I must say that there is an Escalade on every corner just as well as Envoy's, Trailblazers and Bravadas! Ha, ha. BUT.. I do notice that whenever I return back to Columbus, Ohio, the lack of triplets and Denali/Escalades are noticeable. I am beginning to lean more and more towards the Denali just because of the $$$ saved, but the unfortunate thing is that my dad has the color (Dark Garnet Red) that I want! I would hate to duplicate his color, therefore I would have no other choice but to go with the White or Polo Green. I think the the black is cool, but this is a big beast and black would be somewhat hard to keep up on this beauty.
Wish Me Luck!
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
When the Denali gets all of the technological goodies of the Trailblazer and Envoy, will the Denali board read like the TB and Envoy boards at Edmunds? The bugs tend to follow the goodies.
Frank
Since purchase 2/02, I have had one 'dead panel' which occurred in May. Until today, when it came up 'dead' again. Tried the same fix as last time--turn it off and restart, but no luck on fixing the problem. I then stopped, parked for 10 min. and tried it again. That fixed it.
Does any one know of a TSB or permanent fix?
I would follow the owners manual on Envoy Oil Change as oppose to dealer advice. The manual is a written document and will hold up better if there is a dispute. 7500 miles is a good time also (in case the DIC got reset by accident). Just be sure to check the oil level every couple of weeks.
GAM
1/2 2400 - 2600
2/3 2300 - 2500
3/4 2000
torque conv lock at 40 - 45mph.
This was under moderate acceleration. Being a little more aggressive resulted in shift points about 200rpm higher. I affected lower shift points by letting off the accelerator slightly when a couple of hundred rpms below the regular shift points as expected. All this was at normal operating temperature.
I believe if you modified the valve timing to produce more low end power the by product would be more vibration (like a Quad 4) and harshness.
The torque curve is almost flat from 1K to 6K rpm, with max at 3600rpm. To get to decent HP though you need 2000 to 2200 (100HP or so) which is probably why GM engineers opted to set the shift points where they did.
Now you wonder why I post this?
I have read your folks posts for weeks now since I am looking at an Envoy XL or TB EXT purchase in mid 2003.
You folks are a great source of info. Fuel mileage really interests me with a 37 mile commute one way. Yet I have a trailer to tow several times a year.
I must admit I am interested in the 5.3 powered Envoy rather than the I-6. GM says the release for the 5.3 motor in the TB or Envoy is this fall which means March or April 2003.
I chatted with a young sales rep in Tempe AZ 2 weeks ago and asked about the 5.3 motor release. He starts telling me about the World class I-6 is the only engine availible, blah, blah.
I told him he needed to check his info and another rep agreed with me.....
My normal mix of driving on my Silverado gives me mid 17 mpg. I am not a slow driver, although I was flipped off last month by a guy. I was driving 72 in a 55 mph car pool lane in the Phx area.
Tony
Next time try the Advanced Search on the left sidebar and save your scrolling elbow, LOL.
Steve, Host
I tried bumper tsb and loose bumper and came up with no matches on the advanced search.
GAM
Steve, Host
Try our own Edmunds Maintenance Guide or
AllData
tidester, host
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
I know it's stuck/broke because when I shut the engine off the fan stops immediately, with the rest of the timing belt. Most clutches will allow the fan to spin some revolutions after the engine is shut off and then stop. How could the garage not know when a fan clutch is froze? Is this going to be one of those issues like the exploding fuel tanks on the older Chevy trucks? I have read alot about this issue in here. What is anyone doing about this??
Frank