Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

scottc454

Is it just me, or when a GM vehicle has a problem, the dealer always lies to the consumer?? Is that cost-cutting or what??

Yes, but only if the vehicle is under warranty. They'll tell the truth if it means extra revenue.

tblazed

From that "SUV" web site...

"A loophole in the gas guzzler tax provides automakers a free ride to build and market inefficient, polluting vehicles while taxpayers are left holding the bag."

No.1- It's not a "loophole" if it is specifically written into the law. A loophole is when a way has been found to circumvent the intent of a law or rule. The anti-everything folks like to use that "loophole" word to imply there's something unscrupulous about it. Like the over 6000 lb GVW tax write-off for business owners that is a tax LAW. How many times have I heard that referred to as a "loophole"?

No.2- These triplets we have all meet NLEV (National Low Emission Vehicle) standards for low emissions. They do not pollute any more than a similar weight and engine size car.

No.3- As far as taxpayers having to absorb the cost of us "gas guzzling SUV" drivers, for every extra gallon of gas I burn, I pay 40¢ more in state and federal tax. Therefore, for every mile I drive my TrailBlazer, I pay double the taxes someone that drives a 30+ mpg vehicle pays. No guilt here.

scottc454

A loophole is when a way has been found to circumvent the intent of a law or rule.
...
Like the over 6000 lb GVW tax write-off for business owners that is a tax LAW. How many times have I heard that referred to as a "loophole"?


The intent of the law was to make it affordable for farmers and such to own trucks which they need for their livelihood. If I buy a Hummer because I think it's cool and only use it to get groceries, yet still claim a tax deduction, am I not violating the intent of the law? That, my friend, is a loophole.

ficuss

tblazed. there are NO unintentional loopholes to be found in laws. They were put there specifically to let knowing individuals take advantage of them. Do you think for a minute that the gov. would let an real loophole exist for more than a minute if it didn't otherwise benefit a select group of people or organizations. Once a real loophole is exploited by the wrong person or group, it is closed for good, only to reopen with more exclusions written into it.

Frank

tblazed

"If I buy a Hummer because I think it's cool and only use it to get groceries, yet still claim a tax deduction, am I not violating the intent of the law? That, my friend, is a loophole."

No, that would be breaking the law. If you take the claim on your signed tax return that the Hummer is used 100% for business and it's not, and/or you don't actually own a business and are willing to commit fraud against the IRS (lie) you'd be in big trouble if/when they cought up with you. They expanded it to business owners and increased the maximum to $100,000 because some of those heavy-duty trucks cost more than the $25,000 it was. Of course there is always someone there to cheat and abuse rules, but loophole, no.

scottc454

OK, I suppose I'd have to say that I used it for a business. I believe it says "substantially" for business, not 100%. I suppose we could have several definitions of "substantially" as well.

Anyway, it's still a loophole because it was intended for farmers, but never says anything about actually needing a 6000 lb. GVWR vehicle. So if I had my own business selling insurance, I could deduct a Hummer but not a Trailblazer.

tblazed

They have been talking about this tax code 179 rule for over a year here. Here's the rules and qualifications, and some history, boiled down to understand it.

 Tax Code 179

Jerry Reynolds, who wrote this, also has a local radio talk show on every Saturday afternoon, (WBAP 820, on the internet too). He never advertises Fords or his dealerships on the show! Good guy-I have personally dealt with him in the past.

"So if I had my own business selling insurance, I could deduct a Hummer but not a Trailblazer." Get a Trailblazer EXT and you can. Get one with a V8 too!

ficuss

"If I buy a Hummer because I think it's cool and only use it to get groceries, yet still claim a tax deduction, am I not violating the intent of the law? That, my friend, is a loophole."

No, that would be breaking the law. If you take the claim on your signed tax return that the Hummer is used 100% for business and it's not, and/or you don't actually own a business and are willing to commit fraud against the IRS (lie) you'd be in big trouble if/when they cought up with you.

mcafee1

On my 02 TB at about 34K miles I occasionally get the message on the DIC "Check Oil Level". This occurs first thing in the morning. I reported this when going to the dealer for an oil change. It has happened several times since. The service writer has noted this on my record so I will just "wait and see". The oil level has been full each time.

pepper50

rctennis (who previously stated he doesn't own and is not shopping for a GM SUV) asked:
Is it just me, or when a GM vehicle has a problem, the dealer always lies to the consumer?? Is that cost-cutting or what??

Scott replied:

Yes, but only if the vehicle is under warranty. They'll tell the truth if it means extra revenue.

Unless they tell you that you need something done or a service performed when you really don't, which can happen with any make of dealer.
That's why it's good to also have an independent mechanic that you trust, especially after the warranty period, or if you want a second opinion in the warranty period.

2k_impala_ls

I got the 02TB back yesterday and the front links were worn again. Only 2300 miles ago they were replaced. I hope I get an improved part this time.

tblazed

Do you drive diagonally across a deep gutter or speed bumps several times a day or??? Something that constantly puts a lot of twist and stress on the sway bar and links? Curious why yours wear out so fast, maybe from something in your daily driving, and most others never have a problem. What is the symptom when they fail? Noise?

envoy_xl_in_pa

I too fought the sway bar link battle with my dealer. At 4900 miles, I had the Front stablizer bar end links replaced. The repair order said "Opcode - E2147 Replace both front stabilzer bar end links". The GM part numbers listed were: 12479075 and 12479076 - both were called "shaft kit" on my repair order. Then, again at 12160 miles, I took the truck back in with the same complaints - the bumping/thumping noise from the front end when going over bumps. This time, my repair order said "Opcode - E2147 Link or bushings, front stabilzer shaft at control arm both R&R or replace". The part numbers on this order were 12479233 and 12479231 - both were called "Link kit" on the order. I have put about 4000 miles on the truck since this second repair, and no further problems. I found it odd that the dealer had the parts in stock both times - usually they have to send out for warranty parts, and I get to make a return trip a week later to get the parts installed. They said that they had these parts on hand, because they had changed "quite a few" sets of these links. Hope the part numbers and the diagnostic text help you get it fixed for good.

2k_impala_ls

I think I drive pretty normally. I do mostly suburb driving 100% on paved roads. Maybe I got the old ones the 1st change and the updated ones this time. Besides that, I have no other problems @ 9700 miles from 7-02.

wesley1der

Any one seen any adds on left over 03 Envoys. Would like to know what the discount is on 03 models?

cparise1

I only posted the suv.org link to reference the cost of ownership (maint) of our trucks. I am not a tree hugging liberal but, I am a democrat who enjoys driving his Envoy XL SLT.

I am surprised that I didn't get more comments about the TSB comparison between the '02 Explorer (207) Vs. the Envoy (33).

Happy New Year to all.

Chris

ficuss

It's hard to comment on the significance of tsb's unless you first agree on what the significance of the tsb is. Does a tsb indicate the existence a problem or the willingness of a manufacturer to address the problem? How many tsb's did the Yugo have? Did Ford ever issue a tsb on the Pinto fuel filler tube? I've owned Fords and Chevys, and I'm not making a statement on either.
 
Happy New Year to all

Frank

quickdtoo

I have to agree with Frank on this after recently making a buying decision for my Dad. Using Consumer Reports buying guide as a reference we bought him a '98 Ford Escort due to it's great/much better than average reliability record. But looking at all the tsbs(187) posted for it, I'd have to say that it is a sign the mfr is working on making improvements on their product, instead of the seemlingly GM service standard of "it's normal" and leaving it at that. JMHO

Y'all have a Happy and SAFE New Year,
 Tim

tblazed

TSBs are issued to aid service technicians. From feedback from the servicer to the manufacturer, changes or improvements are made and a document is issued with instructions and new parts usage if that applies. Been dealing with service bulletins for almost 30 years in the electronics repair business. Every manufacturer we deal with issues TSBs. Sometimes they issue new bulletins to supercede the previous bulletin when a better fix is found. Without service bulletins, the field technicians would be on their own. TSBs help ensure the repair will be done correctly the first time and it won't come back as a repeat repair. TSBs are a GOOD thing.

01_hoe

In SW Ohio some Envoy Dealers are selling '04's to all at GM Employee prices.

jkiser01

I was curious if anyone here has installed 20's on thier Envoy/Trailblazer and if so what size tire did you use. I am hoping 285/50/20's will fit because thats what I bought but haven't installed them yet.

Any comments would be welcome..

01_hoe

I have 265/50/20's on my '03 Envoy. No problems. On another forum the guys have used 275's ok. A poster stated that if you lowered your vehicle you may have a problem with 285's.

elevatorguy

Anyone here using one of these? For those who don't know, they are vehicle specific cell phone holders and look OEM, in my opinion. I'm looking fro real world feedback though.

Thanks

kenym

Why would anybody buy a set of tires if they weren't sure if they would fit????????

Must be nice to have a lot of money........Or perhaps it is a lack of sense....

~Ken

redline65

I think s/he knows that the wheels will fit on the hub, but will the car turn without the tires rubbing is the question.

quickdtoo

They would be ~1.25" larger in diameter than OEM tires so there's gonna be a marked reduction in performance. I have 275/60-17s on mine which are almost identical to OEM diameter but quite a bit wider. There's ~1/2" clearance at the upper control arm, so I would think the 285s would hit there making them a no-fit, unless the wheel backspacing moves the wheel out slightly which might make the fit at the fender/wheel well a problem. The wheels will probably make or break a fit in this case, so choose them wisely. I would recommend a test fit before making a final commitment.

quickdtoo

Just got tired of seeing the same post at the top....tim

tidester

Thanks for the change in scenery!

Perhaps many are out enjoying the snow. :-)

tidester, host

kram18

Snow? What snow? It's all rain down here in metro NYC area :-/ Speaking of inclimate weather, anyone have any recommendations for silicone wiper blades for the triplets?

ficuss

Trico has a nice pair of 22" silicone winter wipers. I paid about $16.00 for the 2 pack at Costco. BTW, make sure you turn OFF the auto rain sense each time you turn the ignition off. The wipers may be frozen to the windshield in the morning, and starting the car will cause the wiper motor to grind and possibly self destruct. The engineers at G.M. can tell us if ice is possible, but they can't reset the wiper switch to "off" when you turn the car off.

aldan93

I hear all you people down south talk about 1-4" HA HA HA Check this link!!!!

http://www.weather.com/weather/alerts/?alertId=26047&dbSeq=nu- ll

I'll let you know how the TB is in 3 feet of snow!!!!!!

pepper50

My 2002 Envoy is due for its first state safety and emission inspection here in Texas. The emission test is via OBDII (On Board Diagnostics Generation 2) by plugging into the Envoy's computer and checking the emission controls history and operation. I'm trying to decide whether to go to the dealer for this, or to let my independent mechanic (who works on my two older cars) do it. I'm leaning toward having my mechanic do it; his shop is also an authorized state inspection facility. It would be faster, and he won't try to get me to do a bunch of other things while I'm there. I was curious what most people have done.

By the way, where is the computer located that they plug into? I've never really looked for it. Thanks.

tblazed

"I'm trying to decide whether to go to the dealer for this, or to let my independent mechanic (who works on my two older cars) do it. I'm leaning toward having my mechanic do it; his shop is also an authorized state inspection facility. It would be faster, and he won't try to get me to do a bunch of other things while I'm there. I was curious what most people have done."

I just had mine done, NOT at the dealer, but by a known, trusted state certified tech I have dealt with in the past. He does both my vehicles. I'd almost bet money if you go to the dealer they will present you with a list of wiper blades, filters, fluid changes, and other maintenance items that you "need" to get done, to go along with the inspection, since they don't make much profit from just the inspection. Any shop that has the "Air Check Texas" sign out front is certified to do this test. Mine was done in about 15 min.
 
"By the way, where is the computer located that they plug into? I've never really looked for it."

OBD2 port they plug into is located under the dash, above the gas pedal. (Where my Carchip data recorder stays plugged in). Two "main" computers in these vehicles- PCM itself is under the hood on the engine, BCM is under the L-rear seat. They "talk" to each other via a serial data bus.

envoyenvy

check out message 13160 and 13162 about front end squeak. common problem

redline65

I just let my dealer do it when I'm in for an oil change. That's one thing they can't rip you off for since the state sets the price. Whatever is most convenient I guess.

tblazed

I do my own oil changes. None of my vehicles ever see a dealer or a quickie place for an oil change. I don't trust anyone else. I could tell my story about the routine state inspection 3 years ago on my S-10 that turned into a $775 estimate for a rear main seal leak that didn't exist that was actually valve cover gaskets leaking, at a major quickie oil change place. (I guess I just did!) That's why I stick to a trusted mechanic that's also a state certified inspector. Nice to have choices! Whatever works best for the individual.

ficuss

of course the trusted mechanic. Ed, why would you take the word of a minimum wage quick change oil associate anyway. I've been told the same "rear main seal leak" problem many times. That's what second opinions are for.
 What do they check for in the safety inspection anyway? We don't have a safety inspection in Illinois. I guess we don't have to be told when our cars are not safe to drive.

Frank

tblazed

Below list, what they are supposed to check for. All this for $12.50! I have never had an inspector check all of these however. Would take way too long, more time than $12.50 will pay for. They tend to skip over about half of these items, up to the discretion of the inspector. Obviously some old clunkers need a more detailed inspection than a 2002 Trailblazer with 10,000 miles. Plus in the non-attainment counties, an additional $27 for the emissions test. As far as where to get an inspection done, I prefer to go somewhere that has no pecuniary interest in doing repairs. Either to someone I can trust, or an inspection station that does only inspections.

-Check for broken or burned out turn signals, brake lights, tail Lights, license plate light and reflectors
-Check for missing or broken gas cap & seal
-Check operation and condition of seat belts
-Check parking brake function (does it hold the car)
-Window Tint (1988 or newer only, check too dark/below AS1 line on front windshield)
-Rear view mirror
-Interior high beam indicator, high beam switch, turn signal indicators
-Check wiper blade condition and operation
-EGR, TAC, PCV components (present/working)
-Check operation and condition of power steering and power brakes
-Check EVAP cannister and air pump
-Check operation and condition of headlights
-Exhaust System (including manifold, check for leaks, proper hangers)
-Check catalytic converter function (1984 or newer)
-Check tires (rim condition, tire condition, minimum tire tread, all lug nuts, splits/cracks)
-You must present proof of insurance at the time of inspection. Valid proof of insurance is required per state law.
-During the driving portion of the State Inspection Test, the vehicle will be checked for steering slack or binding, horn operation, brake stopping distance and parking brake function

kpp14

Here’s a good one. Late for a meeting (snow and ice on the road 10*f) I went ripping out of my drive in 4wd and promptly lost the back end in a semi controlled donut (honey ice glazed heart failure kind of donut). The drive selector was not working and randomly making its own selection. Drove straight to the dealer. They scan checked the “ATC” module and received code C0374. The front and rear drive shaft speed sensor was not working. Further investigation found the blue wire to the rear and the yellow wire to the front drive shaft were corroded. Fixed me up and out in a couple hours. Bye the way I was checking out the new Envoys and the dealer has a fellow come in and put Denali looking grills on the trucks which look really good. The cheap overlay ones are $150 Canadian installed and the thicker more rigid ones are $250 Canadian. The clips looked pretty cheap but work well. I was advised that the temperature sensor doesn’t operate properly with the grills and should be moved?
Aldan93, I did go to Rochester over the holidays. If you look at satellite images of the area it snows non stop from Buffalo all down the South side of lake Ontario. You can off road on the road there!

Hope the triplet gang had a good holiday.

tblazed

..of a minimum wage quick change oil associate anyway.."

  They normally do not have the minimum wage guys doing inspections. The inspector has to go though state training, certification, and keep updated, so the inspection personnel are not the bottom rung employees. When the inspector comes out and says your vehicle has a problem, most people probably take that person's word for it.

lurker01

Hi,

I'm having a problem with the wipers on my Envoy. When they are in normal mode, they wipe fine, but if they are in intermittant mode, they seems to 'stick' as the wiper tries to return from a wipe. This is annoying and causes lines of water to stay where it stuck and skipped. It seems as if it does not have enough power to return the wiper to the resting position. I tried cleaning the blades with vinegar and when that didn't work, I replaced them. Still no luck. Could the motor be failing? Could this be a defect in the intermittant mode?
Has anyone seen this before?

thanks,

-John

tblazed

"Could the motor be failing? Could this be a defect in the intermittant mode?
Has anyone seen this before?"

Yes X3. Problems with water getting in the motor cover that also covers the internal pc board that controls the wiper functions. Go get a new wiper motor [non-permissible content removed]'y at the dealer. NHTSA was supposedly studying these and possibly a recall coming.

tblazed

I would personally like to see Texas do away with the safety inspections like a lot of other states have done. Nothing we can do about the emissions inspections, since that comes from the federal EPA. The honest people generally stay honest, but it really encourages a lot of bogus inspection stickers out there, and the inspectors don't do a very complete job anyway for what little the fee is. Then again, the municipalities would loose a lot of revenue not writing tickets for bogus inspection stickers. Very common in these parts. Glad my Trailblazer flew through the whole inspection process in about 15 min, as about 90% of all vehicles will do. Test 100% to catch the 10% that fail. What a deal.

gam2

I wish we had them in Wisconsin. You should see some of the crap people drive. They can't be safe. And with all the rust we see...... Yikes!

GAM

tmarkb2

I have an '03 SLT. Love it except for the auto headlights and DRLs and the TCS (two stories for another time).

I'm considering a JET chip or programmable module, a throttle body spacer, cold air intake kit and an exhaust (Borla, Corsa, JBA). Have any of you guys noticed significant performance improvement by going with these bits? I'm looking to dramatically improve throttle response, shift points and shift crispness.

BTW, last April I put on Eibach springs (1-3 inches lower and 25+% stiffer than stock) and BF Goodrich Comp T/A HR4s. They practically made the Envoy a 4,400 lb go-kart! The much-improved handling and straight-line tracking (highway speeds in particular) is amazing! Worth every penny and then some.

01_hoe

tmarkb2: Sounds like you are satisfied with the Eibach springs. Does your SLT have the Load Leveling Suspension? How do the Eibach's work with this if you have it also? Did you install the Eibach's yourself? How long did it take?

I just received a Volant cold induction system for my 03 Envoy today. I will install this week. Already have the Borla system. Did not notice a significant increase in throttle response with the Borla. Looks nice though.

From my understanding from other forums, the computer in the Envoy will over ride the jet chip or other programmable module after a period of time. I would like to get a Westers module if and when it becomes available.

What rear end ratio do you have?

aldan93

we only got around 10-12" but it is still snowing south of us they got 3 to 4' FEET!!!!! And its still snowing!!!!!!!! The lake is still a little warm with no ice so the 10F temps and 40MPH winds are something!!!

The drive home last night I went thru several snow drifts that went over the hood!!! Its not that bad, trust me I've seen it worse!!! When you see the national guard out, its about as bad as it gets!!!!!

scottc454

I have the K&N cold air intake. I suppose on some dyno it might have 5-10 more HP, but it doesn't feel any faster at all.

I don't think there's too much to be gained on the exhaust side either, since they're all cat-backs and don't have a header.

As for the chips, I suppose they adjust timing and air/fuel ratio and probably are pretty good,
but I don't have one (yet). I refuse to believe anyone who says that the computer overrides them over time. Come on! It's not Skynet that's in these things.

tblazed

"I wish we had them in Wisconsin. You should see some of the crap people drive. They can't be safe. And with all the rust we see...... Yikes!"

Problem with it here is, the vehicles that get the legitimate inspections are the ones that will likely pass. The scofflaws that drive the old clunkers I see every day buy these bogus stickers thinking they will get away with it. Makes a big underground market for bogus stickers. Then when a police officer pulls 'em over and runs the serial number on the sticker and it comes back invalid, then either the driver gets a $240 ticket, or goes to jail for outstanding warrants, and makes doing the needed repairs and getting a real inspection seem cheap by comparison, I am sure.

tblazed

But... these things do have complex computer system controls that will in time readjust to the programmed parameters. That's what several people have reported - that happening with the modules that plug in between the PCM and the sensors to trick it, and having to reset the computer by disconnecting the battery to get the "gains" back temporarily. Only way to do it correctly would be with a Hypertech-type programmer that they don't make yet.

From the August 2000 Technical Description:

"The main processor operates at 24 MHz with 1 MB of memory. The electronic throttle processor operates at 22 MHz with 48 KB of memory. The controller monitors 11 engine sensors including crank and cam timing sensors, manifold absolute pressure sensor, oxygen sensors, and coolant sensors, as well as transmission sensors. The PCM manages all engine and transmission functions, as well as communicates with other vehicle Electronic Control Modules. Fueling is controlled by a speed density algorithm. This eliminates the requirement for a mass air flow meter. Additional key functions the PCM controls on the engine include the electronic throttle body, cam phaser adjustment, ignition system timing and starter engagement/disengagement. The PCM manages the electronic throttle, considering data such as drive-wheel slip and transmission gear. It controls throttle progression for maximum driveability and ease of operation. In conjunction with the cam phaser, the PCM optimizes valve overlap and allows sufficient
exhaust gas recirculation without a separate system."

And part of what these aftermarket add-on modules do is change the transmission shift points and firmness. This description is how the PCM monitors and actively adapts to changes with the transmission:

"The 4L60-E uses sophisticated electronics to modify shift patterns as conditions dictate. The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) monitors factors such as throttle position, vehicle speed, gear range, temperature and engine load. The PCM also measures changes in the operating condition of the vehicle, which occur naturally over time as components wear. Based on these measurements, shift timing and hydraulic line pressure are adapted to maintain optimum shift feel under different conditions - for example, during heavy hauling or trailering. This results in improved drivability and fuel economy. The PCM also allows the system to self-adjust for variations in each new unit, ensuring that every customer experiences consistent performance, and ensuring that the transmission will produce a constant high level of performance for the life of the car."