Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

sostrouble

Where did you read the story. I have an 02 Envoy and 01 Grand Am GT that I got for my 18 year old daughter. I don't want her having a problem with the accelerator sticking.

01_hoe

try this link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6408966/

ficuss

10759 of 15455 Brake lights by ficuss Apr 01, 2003 (8:17 pm)

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tblazed: where have you been? Haven't heard from you in quite a while. I hope you had the dealer replace the brake light socket too. The bulb wire contact shows obvious signs of arching. That means the socket contacts are also burned and pitted. This can be a problem with wire insulation overheating at the point of connection to the socket, AND, the arching (sparking) can play havoc with the electronic systems. This is possibly a clue when looking for various glitches we've read about. Is the bulb a combo. brake and turn signal bulb?

Frank

ross1962

...only have 6500 miles on my '04 TB and gotta take it in already. :-(

Well, they must be making them better. My '02 was in a few times before 6500 miles.

cameokid

Hi all - LTNP
 
To 2k_impala_ls - I had my 2003 TB in the shop for this 4WD problem at least 5 or 6 times - you might also notice that the 4WD is not operable when this happens. If you turn the ignition off and on, it clears itself until the next time it happens. They replaced my 4WD transfer control module twice but it did not fix the problem. On one occasion I was lucky enough to have it happen and I took it straight to the dealer who hooked it up to their diagnostic thing. The codes were not useful. They were puzzled to find there was no power to the rear grid. I think they replaced my ignition switch next. But the 4WD light kept coming on, and the 4WD would be inoperable until I turned the car off/on again to clear it.
Finally, this last time I brought it in they figured out what the problem is, because it hasn't happened in 7 months now (it was happening about every 2-3 months).

Here's what my service ticket says: Scan system for codes found C0550. Check for bulletins replace transfer case control module (this is my third now) and reprogram per bulletin# 02-04-21-0060

Hope this helps

melsfast

Hey, I'm new! I just bought my 03 TB last month...I love it...however, I did blow I tail light ( I read it would be a problem) and there was a recall on my windshield wiper motor. If anybody has any further problems, I can tell you exactly what the dealer will do or what they are looking for...Has anybody had any major problems with their TB? I got an extended warranty for 4 more years...is it necessary?

raleigh

Does anyone know for sure whether the triplets have a transmission that supposedly adapts to your driving style? Seems to me I read somewhere that they do. Would like to know the particulars if it is true.

hammen2

smokiejoe and texaszeus reported pretty much the same problem we are experiencing with my wife's new 2004 Envoy. For us, it seems to be going up a sizeable/steep hill at 70 mph or so with the cruise on - car seems to buck or surge. It only seems to do this after the car has been driven for 45-60 minutes (i.e. is warm). Wondering if anyone else has:

a) had this problem, and
b) had their dealer fix it.

Of course, I took the assistant service manager along and could not duplicate the problem while he was riding along. On the way home, you guessed it...

*sigh*

Other than this, my wife has 2400 miles on her Envoy, which we've only had for five weeks. She loves it, except it also does an intermittent shudder at idle (tach jumps)...

--Robert

tblazed

It "adapts" to stay within certain operating paramaters programmed into the computer and remain consistent in the way it shifts. Here's the description from the service manual:

ADAPTIVE SHIFT CONTROL
The 4L60-E uses sophisticated electronics to modify shift patterns as conditions dictate. The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) monitors factors such as throttle position, vehicle speed, gear range, temperature and engine load. The PCM also measures changes in the operating condition of the vehicle, which occur naturally over time as components wear. Based on these measurements, shift timing and hydraulic line pressure are adapted to maintain optimum shift feel under different conditions - for example, during heavy hauling or trailering. This results in improved drivability and fuel economy. The PCM also allows the system to self-adjust for minor variations in each new unit, ensuring that every customer experiences consistent performance, and ensuring that the transmission will produce a constant high level of performance for the life of the car.

raleigh

Thanks Tblazed. You're a wealth of information and that is what I was looking for ... I think.

mookie14

Is there anything comparable to a borla im mean a grand is alot of dough to spend i know its worth it. But is there anything close. Lastly the recall on tblazers i got a 03 does that include mine or will gm let me know. Or do i need to call chevy thanks. Or has anyone put anything on their tblazer besides a borla that works good thanks.

blink3

I have a '02 Envoy 2WD. Love it. I will be taking it in for some minor warranty stuff but this rather troubles me. Bare with me, it is hard to explain. Say I am running on the interstate and exit off the ramp and come to the light. I sit there waiting on the light to change so I can turn. the light changes and as I depress the accelerator, lightly, I FEEL something very odd as I just begin to move. It really feels like I am running over one of those rumble strips, you know before stop signs sometimes. I know it is nothing on the ground, it is something in the trans. or the rear end. Like the diff gets play in it on stopping then when you apply pressure to it the ring and pinion are meshing back together. Or something similar within the transmission, gears that are not quite exactly meshing for just a second, causing a vibrating feeling just for a sec. It lasts about 1 second then it is fine. It shifts fine, pulls fine and only does this on occasion.
  Also (may or may not be related) Again on interstate cruising, It feels as if the trans "hiccups". It is like maybe the torque converter is engaging/disengaging. Say you crest a very very slight incline and you let off the gas just a little you can feel it. I seem to notice this happening more and more now.
  Any one felt either of these or had any corrective action for these symptoms???
  Thanks so much!!!

01_hoe

If you bought your TB new and have not changed mailing addresses since purchase, GM should notify you. Guess you also could call GM or maybe the local dealer with your complete VIN number.
Yeah, Borla is good but pricy. Maybe you could check with a custom exhaust shop and they could bend a system to fit your vehicle. Borla is all stainless and has a 1,000,000 mile warranty.
Be ready for more incabin noise with a non OEM exhaust.

wpkelleysr

Yup.. I had the same thing happen to an 02TB and an 02 Envoy. All you have to do is replace the gear oil in the rear differential - and the problem will go away. It always seemed to happen at this same ramp in Manteca, CA when I was crossing the valley. I would have been on the freeway for an hour or so, pulled off to get gas, and after the stop, the rear would shudder on acceleration. Changed the gear oil, no more problem (the change is a little spendy though because the oil's not cheap).

- WPK

mookie14

01 hoe um what can be done if i decide to go with borla to tone down the in cabin noise. Now even though if i go with a non stainless steel exhaust in your opinion how long will i go until i have to buy another exhaust. Um im in ohio crazy weather so. im not part of the recall so i guess gm excluded me huh thanks. whats your opinion of gibson exhaust an any other you might know of thats decent thanks.

rotorguy

I have an 03 TB EXT LT (I6) w/ 18K miles. I too had the rattle in the front end when going over small bumps along with the "squeak". I had to tell the dealer that they needed to replace the front sway bar bushings in the front to get rid of the rattle. This took away all the rattling in the front end. I was left with the "squeak" in the front end which I thought for sure was coming from the suspension before I searched the posts here. I simply lubed the front hood hinges,latch and rubber stops and all the squeak is gone. I do like this SUV except for the gas mileage(only averaging 12.8-13.2 mpg combined city/highway driving. I'm planning a trip to Florida in February from Pennsylvania so I'll see what kind of mileage I get w/ all higway driving.

01_hoe

I have the Borla on my '03 Envoy. Got it from Summit Racing in northern Ohio. I don't have any idea how long the non stainless exhaust would last, probably would depend on how warm the engine gets on each use and quality of the components used. Have no knowledge of quality or sound of the Gibson.
I used sound deadener to quiet my Borla. Put in about 160 sq ft in floor and doors. It was a big job but results were worth it. I live in SW Ohio, weather is not as bad as maybe in your area.

blink3

How can I tell if my '02 Envoy SLT 2wd has the Limited Slip Differential? Is there some code on the sticker in the glove box that will tell me or is there a code on the diff itself? I am going to swap fluid and want to make sure i get the right stuff. My owner's manual makes no ref. to limited slip or not.
  Thanks!

ross1962

How can I tell if my '02 Envoy SLT 2wd has the Limited Slip Differential?

Go out in the mud and floor it. One roostertail: standard differential. Two roostertails: limited slip differential. This works best if you get someone you don't like to stand behind the car to watch. Also, this is when the On Star comes in handy, as you'll likely be calling a tow truck to get pulled out of the mud.
Please take pictures and post here. Thanks.

paulpro

Bill R

Was the reason you added the sound deadner for the Borla or were there other motivating factors. How much quieter did you find the Envoy?

How about the wind noise? Is that a problem on your vehicle? How much did it change your tire noise?

How about source you used for the deadner. 160 ft can get pretty pricey

thanks

Paul P

n7don

Look for "G80" in the list of codes on the glovebox door. Your owners manual will have the info on what gear oil to use HOWEVER be advised tblazed & I have looked hi & lo for commonly available synthetic gear oil meeting the GM spec listed. We've found none that specifically references the spec. Emails to Mobil1 and Castrol have received negative responses. If you find any please post the results.

blink3

Thanks for the info. I do have the "G80 code, I thought the G80 code was for the actual gear ratio of the rear end? I may be mistaken. Where might I find a list of what all those codes mean??? Also, I was going to use a redline or royal purple synthetic rear end oil. If it is good enough for a C5 corvette it should be good enough for this. I work in a shop and the redline is what we have been putting in all the vettes lately. Supposedly the GM fluid was garbage. ???

poles

this might sound stupid, but what is the difference between having limited slip differential and not having it?
and, what are the benefits and downsides to having it?
thank you poles

blink3

I found it after diggin a while. You are right G80 is Positraction Limited Slip, and the other code I was thinking of was the GT4 code which I have the 3.73 gear ratio. Reason I am checking into this is the "slop" I feel that I believe is coming from the rear end. If you haven't already, could you read my post earlier and tell me what you think?
  Thanks!

twinrotts

I may be wrong here but I believe Amsoil has a synthetic that will work in this application. Let's say at least I had a dealer recommend an Amsoil product

blink3

I have used Amsoil in lots of vehicles too. I will research that!

blink3

I am sure someone will correct me or add more to this but the main idea is that BOTH rear wheels are supplied power versus just the typical ONE rear wheel getting the power. The rear differential in a limited slip actually has a little clutch pack in it that will allow for the wheels to turn at different RPM's while cornering, thus limited slip. A limited slip diff. will take a different lube or at least need an additive added to it versus a standard diff.

scottc454

I am sure someone will correct me or add more to this but the main idea is that BOTH rear wheels are supplied power versus just the typical ONE rear wheel getting the power.

Both real wheels get power on any differential most of the time. An open differential allows the wheels to turn at different rates to faciliate turning. The flaw is that if one wheel spins, it ends up getting all the power. That is not the intent! If you saw the innards of one you'd see quickly how this happens, but it can't explained without pictures.

With a limited slip, the wheels can turn at different rates up to a point. Then the cluthes engage holding and the axle is partially locked up. The wheels will turn at basically the same rate.

Anyway, no triplet has a limited slip.
The third type of differential is the locker. Too much slip = the axles lock together and the wheels turn at exactly the same rate. Different technology - same basic goal.

Also, there is a common misconception out there that if you have a limited slip or a locker, you've got twice the traction. That is false because as I stated, an open differential is truly 2 wheel drive. It's only if one wheel breaks loose that it goes to hell.

poles

you say no triplet has limited slip, how can that be?

tblazed

Triplets have locking differentials, not limited slip.

I would add that in some cases yes you do get almost twice the traction, for example on a wet street. With an open dif, it is easy to spin one wheel, the right rear, and go nowhere. With a limited slip, you will still spin the rt rear, but torque will transfer to the other side through the clutch pack in the dif, and if you spin the left wheel too, you will still have more forward drive traction from friction of two tires against the wet street. Happens easily with my S-10 that I put an Auburn Limited slip in back in '89.

The Eaton G80 locker used in the Triplets adds a centrifugal mechanism to only engage the clutch pack when one wheel spins faster than the other and forward movement less than 20 mph. And they don’t simply "lock together", the two axles are then coupled together through a clutch pack. Otherwise if you spun a wheel taking off from a stop making a turn, there would be no “give”, there is with the clutches.

This locker mechanism is desirable because No.1, the clutches are disengaged all the time unless wheel spin engages the mechanism. With a limited slip, the clutches are always engaged and work every time you go around a corner. That’s why you have to maintain a limited slip periodically, and why they do eventually wear out the clutches and get less effective. But a locking dif really doesn’t have a maintenance schedule except to check the oil level every 7500 mi .

Reason No.2, with a limited slip on a wet street, making a corner, it is very easy to break both wheels loose equally because one breaks loose, transfers power/torque to the other wheel through the always engaged clutch pack, and in an instant both tires are spinning and you’ve just done a 360° in the intersection! I speak from experience. Above 20 mph a locker will act just like an open dif and you can’t break both rear tires loose under power on a slick spot.

blink3

I am not getting it. I have read numerous publications stating Envoy's LIMITED SLIP DIFF option. Pull up the GM RPO for G80, it specifically states "positraction, limited slip" Where are you getting the info that it is a "locking diff"?? I am not saying you are wrong and please do not take it that way. I am just wondering where you are getting your info.

mookie14

01 hoe um tell me this; im going to buy the borla like today or tomorrow depending when you read this. If i do not put the dynamat in my tblazer or sound deadener materials will i wish i did. Or can i get by without it in the meantime. lastly will i be able tell a big difference from the stock to the borla thanks man.

scottc454

http://www.traction.eaton.com/prod2.htm

It refers to it as the "Eaton G80 locking rear differential." Eaton has to be considered the correct source.
 
Also, from GMC, the option has always been "locking rear differential."

Those RPO codes are different year to year. Do a query on GMC Envoy RPO G80.

I'm sure there are articles out there that refer to it as a limited slip differential. Some people simply use the terms incorrectly, thinking a limited slip and a locker are the same thing. To the non car nut, they basically are the same.

n7don

"Where might I find a list of what all those codes mean???"

This link is a gateway for several model years.

http://gm-trucks.com/RPO_03_GMC.shtml

blink3

Ok, cool. So it is like a hybrid of a true locking diff and the limited slip. So, could you guys look above and see where I wrote about that slight vibration, I think I titled it "anyone felt this". Is this common with this rear end or perhaps are the dogs worn and it is not engaging as it should. The more I think of it, it always happened when I was turning, low speed.
  Also, calling amsoil today to see if their new gear oil is compatible. I am assuming since there are still clutches in there that you would still need fluid compatible with limited slip?
Thanks for all the great info!!!!!

tblazed

To answer your first question, no, I have felt no vibration or anything unusual rounding corners with my locking dif. If you do might want to take it in and get it checked.

As far as Amsoil, I did email them and they replied back their gear oil would work fine, then at the bottom of the response there was this disclaimer:
"Every attempt has been made to ensure that the information provided in this e-mail correspondence is accurate and reliable. However, AMSOIL Inc. makes no warranty, guaranty or promise (express or implied) concerning the
accuracy of our e-mail response as it is based solely on the information provided to us by the e-mail originator."

Also emailed Royal Purple. Their response was:
 "Our Max Gear 75w90 meets and exceeds that GM spec.

Thanks
Patrick Burris
Technical Advisor
Royal Purple Ltd."

And no disclaimers. My dif now has two quarts of fresh Royal Purple 75W-90 in it. This oil is readily available in a lot of auto supply stores too, unlike Amsoil.

The "Genuine GM" gear oil is $20-30 a quart compared to less than $9 a qt for Royal Purple, and the RP already has the friction modifier additive for limited slip in it.

aldan

Yes TB's, Envoy's all have the option of the Limited Slip rear, but you are all wrong Eaton supplies only a small portion of this assembly, American Axle builds and assembles all the rear ends for our trucks, forgings/spider gears to the end brake rotor is all 100% American axle, except Timken Bearings.

tblazed

"TB's, Envoy's all have the option of the Limited Slip rear"

You might want to check your service manual. NO "limited slip" - only the Eaton locker is shown.

01_hoe

Your tolerance for noise may be much different than mine. You may find you don't want or need any sound deadener. Some people like loud music, some don't. Where I noticed the noise problem was at 1500 to 2000 rpm in high gear. A lot of droning or resonance. The area around the rear wheels is one big echo chamber, and can readily be seen when the inside trim is removed. This area is where a lot of the noise comes from.

I did not notice a big performance gain from the Borla. I do like the visual gain.

If you go ahead with the Borla, make sure you keep your old system for a while to make sure you are satisfied with the Borla. That way you can reinstall the OEM and sell the Borla if it is not what you want. The GM OEM parts are expensive to replace when you have to buy them from GM.

funits

I have a 2002 GMC Envoy, 4WD with the G80 differential. When new, it made noises starting up from a stop and turning left. After a couple of complaints to service, they replaced the rear-end gear oil (under warranty). That did the trick, no noise in 40,000+ miles.

Replacement Tire Question: My original equipment Michelin Cross Terrain tires should be replaced before another Northeast winter. The Michelin tires have been great, but are expensive. I was wondering if anyone has any experience/comments on Pirelli Scorpion STR A tires? The Pirellis are less expensive than the Michelins, but seem to have good write-ups.

01_hoe

The OEM Michelin Cross Terrain tires are sometimes available on Ebay for a good savings. Do a search on Envoy in Ebay sometime. It is a hit or miss situation though.

blink3

I just got off the phone with Amsoil's tech. He pulled something up and said YES without a doubt, their new Severe Gear Synthetic Meets the specifications for the differential. I also told him it may or may not be an Eaton unit, he said it is good for either. I will be ordering some up today!!!

tblazed

Yep it may NOT be an Eaton but it definitely is a locking differential. My carrier housing has "AAM Powerlite" cast into it meaning it is an American Axle & Mfg. product, and that it has an aluminum carrier. They make a locking differential too.

A lot of the confusion sets in because regardless of the application, GM refers to it as "G80". On trucks that usually means a locking differential, on cars that means a limited slip or "Positraction" which is a GM name.

mookie14

Last question i promise if you had to say 1 reason why you bought the borla what would it be. Besides not knowing what i like even though why have about the same auto would say on whim i will like it thanks.

02envoyowner

Hi All:
A follow-up to earlier posts of the surge-clunk with my 2002 Envoy SLT. In a nutshell, the same scenario that has been described in several posts by a number of us: start the car; drive a short distance; come to a stop; the car surges forward (ie, the 'have I just been hit' lurch).

After 3 trips to the dealer, the first 2 sending me off with the "unable to duplicate" response, I now have an open case with General Motors as there is no known fix for this problem. My dealership states that they have seen this in 1 other car and they think it has something to do with the air suspension and the rear drive axle {?}. So, I have a car with a problem and no cure.

I have been going round for round with GM customer service. Their "solution" is to offer me a 5 yr, 50,000k GMPP at n/c. It's worth noting that this additional coverage started from day 1, 0 miles...translating into 2 yrs, 24,000k.

After enduring the endless minutia that was my latest conversation with the 'customer service manager' (who, btw, was not empowered to negotiate nor 'allowed' to disclose his supervisor's name, I called it a day. But, I have not accepted this.

I'm interested to hear from others who may be in similar 'unsolvable' situations and what the majority would feel equitable. The bottom line for me seems that I have a broken (expensive)car, problem and any related damage unknown, and what I would consider a weak proposal for resolution.

Thanks so much for any feedback, guidance!

01_hoe

I like the looks. I really don't like that rear resonator that the TB/Envoys have. Kinda like a moose nose. I also got some minor increase in performance, and has the 1000000 mile warranty.

01_hoe

My '03 Envoy (build date 8-6-02) has the same problem. Will feel it upon first starting up and come to stop. If I am at the stop for about 20 seconds, I will feel the problem. Have actually felt it more than once at the same stop. Dealer never had anyone mention problem before (they said). Service tech really brushed it off.
Mine has the air suspension, G80 and 4.10 rear axle ratio.
5/50 seems cheap to me. Now a 100,000 bumper to bumper would be nice, or that 100,000 mile GMPP at a really killer reduced price.
Let us know how you make out.

tjcishere1

This is the second time this has happen once with 17,000 miles now with 31,000 first it was the power window behind the driver now the passenger side window wont go up or down last time it was a cable that snapped its at the dealer now to see what it is this time sounds like the same thing to me anyone have this problem yet?

seiford

Our '03 has has this problem. We went through GM Customer Service and they admitted it's a known problem, but won't admit if there is a fix in the works or not.

They sent us a letter upping our trasmission warranty to 100,000 and they consider the case closed.

BBB arbitration was a waste of time.

Keep us posted if you find a solution.

hardhawk

My 2002 Envoy SLT 4X4 with 4.10 rear axle and ECAS has the same issue. It does not happen all the time. I am up to almost 40,000 miles now, but before I hit 36,000 I bought the GMPP for an additional 3 years and 36,000 miles. I have not been offered anything by GM, perhaps because I did not complain enough. It looks to me like a wait and see situation. Will we have a serious problem develop later or will it remain just the annoyance that it is today? Right now, I have to admit that it is more of an annoyance than anything else, but one that I would not expect for a $38,000 vehicle.