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Postwar Studebakers

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    1964 Gran Turismo Hawk
    Factory photo of a '64 Hawk, most likely taken out at the Proving Ground on Rte. 2 about fifteen miles west of South Bend. Oval badge near bottom of front fender indicates Avanti power, either R1 or R2.

    '64 Hawks started at only $2,958, pretty reasonable for that type of car.

    The trim styling wouldn't make one think so, but at 120.5 inches of wheelbase, the wheelbase is an inch and half longer than a 1964 full-size Chevrolet.

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  • thebeanthebean Member Posts: 1,266
    Wonder what she’s looking at/for? 😄
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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I remember that air vent behind the front wheel on our '54 or so Studebaker.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023

    Easy to see a fair amount of the ‘53 in this ‘64, but supposedly only a handful of part nos. are shared between the two. The ‘64 Hawk is my favorite Studebaker, although Stude knew it was an old design. They usually used the term ‘classic’ in its advertising. 😀

    Could be had with disc brakes, blower and three-speed automatic that could be held manually in second.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I know uplanderguy has a thing for the broadcloth interior option on 60s Studes, and with the MB link, there is a parallel. This untouched 10K mile car recently came out of the woodwork in Germany, a top of the line W112 300SE LWB (10cm in the rear doors) fintail with the wool cloth interior option - I believe this early version of velour perhaps was a no cost option in lieu of leather:





    More of MB and Stude kind of existing in parallel universes in terms of some styling and trim elements. Technically, this W112 fintail was in its own world, with air suspension and an engine derived from the unit in the 300SL. A few of these were probably sold stateside via Stude dealers, but not many - production over 2 years totaled around 1500 units for worldwide consumption, not sure how many made it to the US with an original MSRP probably close to 10K. Due to complexity, not many survive in roadworthy condition today. Seller wants around 80K USD for it, which even as a rare MB, is optimistic.



  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I love broadcloth! Looking good!
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited April 2023



    Ausgezeichnet.

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  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,197

    Ausgezeichnet.

    Bless you! :smiley:

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415

    I love broadcloth! Looking good!

    If only it had a Skytop :)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Really!
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited April 2023
    Stumbled onto the prelude to Pigeon Forge's rod run 2023 this TH, FR, SA. We got here on Monday and
    there are cars lined up along the 3 lane boulevard in the parking in front of businesses and motels along the main strip.

    Likely a thousand classics, junk, customs, modified, all types in the parking in 2 miles each side of the blvd. These are folks who apparently spend the week or drive in daily to show their car and trade.


    We made two slow runs in the curb lane spectatoring. I'll give a free year's subscription to Postwar Studebaker forum here on Edmunds if you can guess what vehicle brand I did not see a single example of among the many cars and pickups.

    Its name starts with "S."

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415

    Really!

    There were aftermarket options available, astoundingly rare:


  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Ironically, just came across this car for sale on FB. It's a black '63 Cruiser, not many photos and the photos posted aren't great; decent paint it looks like; emblems could need replacing (readily available), sagging a bit in front. But it has the 50/50 broadcloth interior with factory headrests! It's not that Skytop car I've posted before.


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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861


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  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,580
    Looks like it has a manual transmission based on the position of the shift lever. I like that red/maroon color interior.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023

    Yes, 3 speed with overdrive. That chrome handle on the left is the overdrive handle.

    I always hate the steering wheel covers as that tells me the wheel is crappy underneath, but they can be painted.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Was Studebaker's success somewhat regional? I was thinking while driving today that maybe there
    weren't any Studebakers at the Pigeon Forge rally because Studebaker did not sell well in those states.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    I remember that near the end, their biggest market penetration was in Indiana, Pennsylvania, and California. Seemed like they had a fair amount of small-town representation, for whatever reason.

    I was told that the DM of my hometown Stude dealer told them that their market penetration in our area was greater than Stude's penetration nationwide. Probably due to a one-family dealership there for forty years.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Headrests - another period MB option, but I am sure others did it too.

    I wonder if Stude marketing to the kind of European size and sometimes spec of the cars helped sales in CA.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    RE.: Headrests--I can't swear to this, but I seem to remember that headrests in Big Three cars looked like tack-on affairs, instead of integrated as when equipped on Studebakers.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    New '64 Daytona convertible at the Proving Ground


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  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,283
    Thanks for pointing out that there is an automobile in that picture, as I was distracted. :p

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023

    Fin, re.: California market share—I’m reminded that considering that only 4,647 Studebaker Avantis were built, a number of celebrities in film, TV, music, and literature seemed to have owned them. Of course most of that was centered in Cali.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Thanks for pointing out that there is an automobile in that picture, as I was distracted.

    Easy Greg; assuming that pic was probably taken in August '63, that lady woud be AT LEAST 80 I bet, assuming she hasn't shuffled off this mortal coil by now! :)
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    Rear side view of the car, showing the gold-colored "Cruiser" nameplate. '64 and later reverted to plain ol' chrome nameplates, LOL.



    Lady who posted these pics isn't selling the car, but wanted opinions as to worth. She's interested in buying. Seller is asking $15K and has the original (new) sale documents with the car. At first blush that seems a bit high to me, but I'm an old guy. It's really probably not a bad price.
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited April 2023
    The Pigeon Forge Rod Run has even more cars along the boulevard now on Wednesday than were here on Monday.
    AND

    I do see ONE Studebaker. Anyone interested?
    "352" area code is Gainesville FL. No license plates so likely trucked in like
    many others I saw on Monday and earlier today.








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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415

    Rear side view of the car, showing the gold-colored "Cruiser" nameplate. '64 and later reverted to plain ol' chrome nameplates, LOL.

    Lady who posted these pics isn't selling the car, but wanted opinions as to worth. She's interested in buying. Seller is asking $15K and has the original (new) sale documents with the car. At first blush that seems a bit high to me, but I'm an old guy. It's really probably not a bad price.

    To me gold nameplates are either very 1957 or very 1993.

    15K isn't what it used to be, if it is a sound car and the buyer loves it, probably no harm done - cheaper to buy one with no real needs than to fix up a basket case.

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    That wagon is a '62, not often seen. I like how people display wagons with stickers on the rearmost windows and with luggage displayed!

    I always liked how Stude integrated 1962's round taillights into the styling of the wagon.

    1962 was the last year Studebaker sold over 100K cars, not counting trucks.

    That metallic brown, I remember, on at least a couple of '62's in town when I was a kid.

    The lack of a V8 emblem on the tailgate indicates a six-cylinder car.

    Beautiful '63 Wagonaire on BaT now, already bid to $10K with six days to go:

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-studebaker-lark-daytona-wagonaire/
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Funny, the production order (build sheet) shows the individual front reclining seats, but there's only a bench seat in the car now.
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  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,580
    The rear design reminds me of an early Jeep Wagoneer. Nice looking wagon.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Brooks Stevens designed both the Wagonaire and Wagoneer.

    '62-64 Studebaker cars, besides the Avanti, were primarily styled by Stevens, with details worked out by Studebaker's in-house team.

    There's not a separate link to it, but if you go to the ad here and page down, the short video is pretty entertaining. It's a walk-around of the car, with audio of a '63 Wagonaire commercial playing in the background.

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-studebaker-lark-daytona-wagonaire/
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited April 2023

    @uplanderguy
    The 62 wagon has 46000 mi.
    It's an automatic.
    Owner left window down today so I stuck my head in to see.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Wagon with some "Mercedes Bends" in that grille design B)

    Was there any upkick in sales after the Avanti was launched?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    '62 was a good year, and sales were up despite a 40-day strike. The Avanti was a sales dud, honestly. Studebaker made a lot of pre-introduction interest in the car, and then production problems (MFG-built bodies, mostly) caused delays in production which resulted in some orders being cancelled. I've heard of some six-month wait times.

    But it surely added interest to the '63-64 model years IMHO, which were my favorites of all.

    The Avanti was introduced still in the 'regular' '62 model year, but at that point were few and far between.

    This is a special that was shown on PBS in 1983 about Studebaker. At about 27:15 the Manager of Industrial Relations, Cliff MacMillen, spoke about the Avanti's initial production problems. Note that shortly after MacMillen spoke, the narrator says that "only the Hawk was selling". Not true at all, LOL.

    fin, there's Egbert in the back of a fintail at 25:34 crossing the strike picket line. He was taken to the police station for getting out of the car and threatening to fight a picketer!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW0YllnHFqI
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Interesting clip, in that he would be driven around in a MB and not a Stude - while that higher line (but not top of the line) fintail was a nice car in terms of price, it was priced maybe like a nice Buick or Olds, and it wasn't a large car especially relative to the market then. And probably a good thing he wasn't allowed to fight lol.

    Funny about the Avanti wait time, as today a 6 month wait for what I assume was a special order would be considered fast.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Egbert was known to personally drive Avantis, but the strike was in Jan. '62, before the Avanti was out. It's reasonable to think he would be driven in a 'Benz, since they were selling the cars in the U.S., but using one to cross a picket line was probably in part 'tweaking' the union help.

    Studebaker hourly employees were supposedly spoiled, in that management was known to bend over on almost any demand to keep a strike from happening. They were actually paid a bit more than Big Three workers, which is insane when one thinks about it. Egbert tried to get their contract down to what Big Three workers were making, which caused a strike. Sales were up in '62, but less than two years after the strike, no more cars or trucks were coming out of the plant. Sigh.

    He was a big guy, 6'4", ex-Marine and someone who came from poverty and worked his way to the top at a younger age than most anyone else in the industry, becoming President of Studebaker at age 40.

    I met his secretary twice, charming lady but definitely a 'gatekeeper' type. She told me his wife would call most every day before 5, asking when he'd be home (they lived in the 'mansion' out at the Proving Ground, 15 miles west of downtown South Bend), and asking her what kind of mood he was in.

    My friend Bob Palma saw him at the counter of the Toasty Shop half a block from the Administration Building, his Avanti cooling off in the parking lot. He was drinking coffee and reading a paper. Bob said, "Believe it or not, at 17 I was too shy to approach him".
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I didn't know that about the hourly/assembly/union demands, I guess they got a little drunk from Lark success.

    Fintail back seats aren't huge compared to American cars of the era either (although are pretty space-efficient, definitely not cramped, seats positioned so a man keep his hat on) - not usually a chauffeur car. I wonder if even by then in the eyes of the passerby, a MB had some prestige and arrogance with the stately grille.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,283
    I have read that Studebaker's labor costs were significantly higher than the big three manufacturers, not just in the hourly rate paid but also lower productivity due to their ancient plant and it's lack of modern production tech.

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  • thebeanthebean Member Posts: 1,266

    From what I remember reading in a couple of books, Stude management had acquiesced to labor for quite a long time. I guess they didn’t have the stomach for a long strike, being such a small manufacturer. But, in the long run, it really hurt the company, IMO.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited April 2023
    If I've got the history right, this is an Avanti for
    model year 1963 from the one year that Studebaker actually
    built the Avanti.
    Maybe I'll see this one at a show near Indy this summer
    if I'm lucky.


    Wheels are different and the mirrors are not authentic?



    Here's a photo from Wiki of 1963 Avanti in same color.



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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023

    Stude built the Avanti for 18 months in total, although production got started very slowly. There were 1963 and 1964 model years. Here's a nice, gold example ('63) from the 'net, which I'm nearly sure was restored by the fellows who did my '63 Lark Daytona Skytop: 1963 Studebaker Avanti R2


    I wished they'd have put an emblem on the front fenders on the R1 model, as they did on R2 (supercharged) models, like the pic I just posted here. My eyes are always drawn right to that area.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    Nice interior shot from the 'net:


    Instrument were lit up in red, and over the windshield were three toggle switches.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    Greg, Stude buildings in South Bend were indeed old. In the entire corridor, which was the SW part of town, the newest Studebaker building I ever saw had a cornerstone with "1945" on it. Ironically, where they built big trucks, in a separate facility a few miles south of downtown, that plant was newer than where they built cars.

    Some of the buildings were from the 1880's. Production started in South Bend by them in 1852!

    When I first started going to meets there in 1988, the Newman and Altman NOS parts place was in this building in the background. Very cool. You could still faintly see painted between the floors outside, 'STUDEBAKER", 'Harness' and 'Saddlery' wording! That building was torn down in around 2000 I think and the county jail is there now.

    The guy in the pic is Arnold Altman, who owned Avanti II in the late '70's. The building to the right is where Avanti II's were built, by some of the old hands. Studebaker Avanti construction had been across the street but this building had been the final "doll up" line.

    Arnold Altman with Avantis<

    When I think of how much asbestos was probably in those buildings, that late.....


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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2023
    I don't recommend actually doing this....but it is fun to watch and hear.

    https://www.facebook.com/33007855/videos/181718454696551?idorvanity=2209016075
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Sherwood Egbert's '64 Avanti (note 'E2' license plate).


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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Were personalized plates possible then, or was it a case of having the right friends?

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Good question, I don't know. First I thought it could be a manufacturer's plate, but that doesn't look to be the case. The '71' is St. Joseph County, Indiana, which is South Bend.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Note no key hole in an Avanti trunk. Can only be opened from inside the car.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I am sure many have read about the 200+ car "barnfind" coming up for auction in the Netherlands Auction link here

    In the mix I spy a couple Studes:


  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I see the Avanti, and the '58.

    I could probably enjoy a '58 two-door hardtop, with the glassy roofline, but a sedan, not so much.
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