Postwar Studebakers

fintail

Packard to Edsel to Stude, what are the odds? That building and the fonts used have a very 40s look to me, I could see the new slab sided models or bullet noses in front of it. The styling of the Larks has me looking for a fintail hiding somewhere

berri

I see some MB in the Lark styling, but to me I probably see more French in the greenhouse even though I'm not sure Loewy was still involved.

uplanderguy

Nate Altman, father of the Avanti II, said once that he never enjoyed the retail automotive business as much as his years with Studebaker; as a local dealer he was often invited into the Corporate office to give his opinion on product decisions. Supposedly, when he went there to discuss continuing the Avanti as a separate company--when Studebaker was still building cars in Canada--he was actually ordered out of Gene Hardig's office (Hardig was the Chief Engineer). Hardig thought he was nuts. Hardig ended up working for Altman at Avanti II for a number of years.

By the early sixties, those one-ton trucks as in the pic were quite unusual. The basic cab was still the '49 styling but of course it had the white fiberglass, vertical-tooth grille instituted with the '57 models. I could like owning one today. You could get them with a diesel from '62-64; the only one-ton diesels in the industry.

uplanderguy

The '62 Lark 4-door greenhouse was designed by Brooks Stevens. I'm not a fan of the rear door styling, but the '62's sales were up a lot from '61, even with a forty-day strike.

berri

Brooks Stevens is an interesting designer. I believe AMC used him too. At one time there was a small Brooks Stevens museum a bit north of Milwaukee. It had several next gen 67 Studebaker prototypes on display, as well as a lot of his other work. The guy could sure do magic on a shoestring!

uplanderguy

I know he did the Jeep Wagoneer too. I'm not familiar with AMC history much so not aware that he was used there; he may well have been.

ab348

Here's a fascinating article on how much of the Stevens Wagoneer design was found even in the final versions built in the 1990s.

https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinatingly-cheap-way-jeep-restyled-the-jeep-wago-1826931827

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Nate Altman, father of the Avanti II, said once that he never enjoyed the retail automotive business as much as his years with Studebaker; as a local dealer he was often invited into the Corporate office to give his opinion on product decisions. Supposedly, when he went there to discuss continuing the Avanti as a separate company--when Studebaker was still building cars in Canada--he was actually ordered out of Gene Hardig's office (Hardig was the Chief Engineer). Hardig thought he was nuts. Hardig ended up working for Altman at Avanti II for a number of years.

By the early sixties, those one-ton trucks as in the pic were quite unusual. The basic cab was still the '49 styling but of course it had the white fiberglass, vertical-tooth grille instituted with the '57 models. I could like owning one today. You could get them with a diesel from '62-64; the only one-ton diesels in the industry.

Hardig was right, though. Altman was nuts to do that. However, Altman had the last laugh, as he produced an Avanti that was superior to the original in both styling (got rid of the front rake, which few people liked), and he eventually chose Corvette power, which was most powerful than the old R2.

uplanderguy

I strongly dislike the reduced-radius front wheel openings and lack of rake, both he had to do to get the Chevy engine to fit. As I usually think, styling revisions often aren't as good as the original. Values seem to substantiate this on Avantis as well.

uplanderguy

Not a postwar, but I think a very attractive pre-war Studebaker, a '42 Commander Skyway. In an era of typical trim smack down the sides, it has just rocker trim, like the concurrent Lincoln Continental, and the only curved one-piece windshield in use at the time.

fintail

I think for most of its history, Stude was never really behind in styling. In 1942, that was definitely a modern car.

uplanderguy

Always apart from the bigger brands is what I appreciate, even though not a soul in my family ever even looked at a Studebaker to my knowledge.

sda

Sometime ago I asked dad who is 82 and is partial to Olds, Pontiac, Cadillac, what he remembered of Studebakers. Old man's car he said, though he would own one over a Chrysler, lol. When I bought my '84 Plymouth Horizon I didn't think he would let me park it in his driveway, but, meekly he asked to drive it one day for an important meeting with a client. His Eldorado diesel had blown the headgaskets, again! He admitted it wasn't a bad little car and enjoyed driving a 5 speed.

fintail

I've heard a story that my grandpa (who seemed to have little consistent brand loyalty - his first car was a Pontiac, then a few Fords, then Chryslers, then Olds, then back to Ford, but later these were intended for my grandma to drive, and he'd have a company/commuter car, always a VW or Toyota when I was a kid, which amused me as he was a WW2 vet) wanted a bullet nose Stude, but my grandma nixed the idea. I have a friend who's grandparents had a bullet nose - I have seen pics of it. They also had an early VW microbus, so they were probably seen as independent thinker types.

uplanderguy

I think even if folks say they aren't/weren't, most folks didn't want to stray too far from the crowd at that point. Studebakers were out there compared to Big Three in styling; I've really come to like that although even as a kid a nice one would turn my head, LOL. I was told that our hometown dealer had an Avanti in for a three-day showing but never sold one. I'm ashamed to admit this but I can remember a Gran Turismo Hawk in a creamy brown, probably in the late sixties, and I can remember putting a sticker I had bought in a package of stickers, that said "WEIRD!", on it.

The Gran Turismo Hawk, 1964 model anyway, is my absolute favorite Studebaker model now.

berri

Personally, I thought Studebaker styling got a bit stale in the mid to late 50's (except I did like the Conestoga wagon models). The knock I'd hear on the original Lark was that it was "girly" looking, or something similar. But I think Studebaker did a good job improving the Lark looks over time as it became the basis for their mainline car and attribute some of the stale styling to a cash crunch and preoccupation with Packard (yeah, I blame Nance). Now the GT Hawk looks good today to me and the Avanti was decent looking, but I think that even though the Avanti styling may have been a bit Avant Garde for the day, it was pricing that really hurt its sales volume, as well as orphan car fear. Avanti or Hawk GT styling; I'm with you Up on the GT.

bhill2

fintail said:

I've heard a story that my grandpa (who seemed to have little consistent brand loyalty - his first car was a Pontiac, then a few Fords, then Chryslers, then Olds, then back to Ford, but later these were intended for my grandma to drive, and he'd have a company/commuter car, always a VW or Toyota when I was a kid, which amused me as he was a WW2 vet) wanted a bullet nose Stude, but my grandma nixed the idea. I have a friend who's grandparents had a bullet nose - I have seen pics of it. They also had an early VW microbus, so they were probably seen as independent thinker types.

The first of my parents' cars that I remember was a bulletnose Study ('51). My father was in graduate school and picked it up used from one of his professors. It had a V-8 (first year of availability) and an automatic (2nd year), so attracted some interest from his friends and fellow students. It was a lemon yellow Commander 4-door. The thing I remember most about it though was that it had upholstery that, in the course of even a short trip, caused you to build up enough static electricity to power a house.

fintail

A yellow bullet nose sedan with wide whites would probably be an attractive car. You don't see many like that these days, for sure.

Come to think of it, I can remember every car my parents have had since I was born - helped by them having the cars had when I was born for several years.

bhill2 said:

The first of my parents' cars that I remember was a bulletnose Study ('51). My father was in graduate school and picked it up used from one of his professors. It had a V-8 (first year of availability) and an automatic (2nd year), so attracted some interest from his friends and fellow students. It was a lemon yellow Commander 4-door. The thing I remember most about it though was that it had upholstery that, in the course of even a short trip, caused you to build up enough static electricity to power a house.

berri

I always thought the longer wheelbase Commander pulled off that suicide doors styling better than the Champion model.

bhill2

fintail said:

A yellow bullet nose sedan with wide whites would probably be an attractive car. You don't see many like that these days, for sure.

Come to think of it, I can remember every car my parents have had since I was born - helped by them having the cars had when I was born for several years.

bhill2 said:

The first of my parents' cars that I remember was a bulletnose Study ('51). My father was in graduate school and picked it up used from one of his professors. It had a V-8 (first year of availability) and an automatic (2nd year), so attracted some interest from his friends and fellow students. It was a lemon yellow Commander 4-door. The thing I remember most about it though was that it had upholstery that, in the course of even a short trip, caused you to build up enough static electricity to power a house.

You know, you're right, Fin. Of all of my parents' cars, I think that's the one I would most like to have. There was, however, a '64 Rambler V-8 that enhanced my adolescence because it was something of a sleeper and because it had recline... well, never mind.

ab348

..

fintail

Come to think of it, I don't know if I want any of my parents' old cars, at least not ones they had since I was born. I'd like to know if my dad's 60 Ford wagon still exists, but as it was an unrestored driver type car, I don't know if I would want the project - I already have an unrestored old car. If it was mint, then it would be an easy decision. Same for the Fairlane and Galaxie, it would be cool to know if they are still around, but I don't really pine for them. My dad had a 70 Mustang when I was born - a cool car, but it wasn't a Mach 1 or anything. Then on to the normal modern cars, nothing makes me emotional beyond knowing if it spared the crusher. Some of them, I doubt it. I suspect cars like the 3.8 Taurus that puked a head gasket, and the S10 Blazer, aren't with us anymore. I am pretty sure the Horizon is long gone, and my mom's T-Bird, maybe, it was a non-runner when it was given away. Probably not much better odds for the Tempo, which had 190K miles on it when it was sold in 1999.

My dad's last hobby car was a Datsun 610, which was neat and rare, but also unrestored, with numerous cosmetic needs. Too much for me to handle with the fintail already deserving attention. It was sold off after my dad passed away, and the next owner crashed it, I suspect it is long gone now.

bhill2 said:

You know, you're right, Fin. Of all of my parents' cars, I think that's the one I would most like to have. There was, however, a '64 Rambler V-8 that enhanced my adolescence because it was something of a sleeper and because it had recline... well, never mind.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the Lark was a much more solid car than the Falcon. The early Falcons were so tinny and cheap you could destroy one with your bare hands. Everything in it felt like it would break if you weren't careful how you touched it.

I think the Larks were MUCH better cars than those tinny Falcons! So were the Valiants yet as I recall Falcons out sold them by a mile. that wheezy 144 CID six was so underpowered and the Slant Six could run circles around it and outlast it by double!

isellhondas

fintail said:

I wonder what happened to that Falcon. It was pretty nice, just needed a good detail. Someone saved it, but I suspect it wasn't the owner's son. I bet we pulled up in the 60 Country Sedan when my dad went and knocked on the door (different era even 25-30 years ago, my dad had no fear to do that, it's how he got the 60) and the old car caught the Falcon owner's eye. A neat old car can charm people, I think.

The Falcon I looked at was red on red with a 260, and all the normal Sprint trim. I don't recall it having rust or any apparent damage, but as typical for old red cars, it needed a cut and polish. I remember the owner showed me the original hubcaps, which he kept in the trunk so they wouldn't be lost or stolen.

That 63 Sprint with a four speed was no slouch as a buddy found out one night when he took one on with his dad's 1964 Malibu SS with a 283 and four speed.

uplanderguy

Guys with cars with 100 more cubic inches are often surprised when they take on either an R2 Lark or R3 Lark at the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags each year, too. I remember hearing that one guy wouldn't put his Big Three something-or-other up against the one Lark after he saw what it was blowing off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN5WjajQZ2o

berri

I always kind of thought the reason he early old Falcons sold so well was that they were very conservatively styled versus Corvair or Valiant. We saw quite a few Rambler Americans around the Chicago area as well. Me; I liked the original Valiant styling, but I think most didn't.

ab348

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the Lark was a much more solid car than the Falcon. The early Falcons were so tinny and cheap you could destroy one with your bare hands. Everything in it felt like it would break if you weren't careful how you touched it.

I think the Larks were MUCH better cars than those tinny Falcons! So were the Valiants yet as I recall Falcons out sold them by a mile. that wheezy 144 CID six was so underpowered and the Slant Six could run circles around it and outlast it by double!

I think I've told this story before on here, but let's set the Wayback Machine to 1960. I was 4 years old and this is one of my earliest memories.

We owned a 1959 Ford sedan at the time. One day Dad came home at lunch and parked on the street in front of our house. Shortly thereafter there was a loud BANG! and we rushed out to see a car had hit the left rear quarter of the Ford very hard, impact-welding itself to it in fact. The tow truck drivers had a hard time separating them.

I guess because the other guy's insurance was paying for the repairs, it went to the Ford dealer's body shop and Dad got a new Falcon as a loaner/rental. I remember the first time him, Mom and I got in it to go somewhere - I was in the back seat, him driving, Mom in the passenger seat. Before we even got out of the driveway she said "This thing is really tinny!" It was probably the first time I had heard that word and it stuck with me.

uplanderguy

LOL about 'tinny'. Reminds me of my wife when we rented a one-year-old Corolla. My wife, who couldn't care less about cars, said "this feels cr*ppy compared to the Cruze".

fintail

My mom had an 07 Corolla. I never drove it, as she bought it without telling me first, and it ended up getting hit hard and totaled after she had it for 3 months. When I visited her soon after, we test drove cars, and she wanted to try another Corolla. It definitely had a tinny feel, and I firmly encouraged her to look at a Camry (which she bought, and still has). I also have a relative with an ~08 Yaris, the Corolla is a Lexus in comparison.

uplanderguy

It drove fine; the one thing I remember about it is an echo when the doors shut.

fintail

I remember the doors felt especially light and thin. After the Corolla incident (she wasn't in the car when it happened, but there were injuries), I wanted her in something more substantial.

berri

LOL about 'tinny'. Reminds me of my wife when we rented a one-year-old Corolla. My wife, who couldn't care less about cars, said "this feels cr*ppy compared to the Cruze".
...or maybe she just wanted to get lucky later that evening - just kidding

uplanderguy

This segment of a '64 Studebaker dealer promotional film shows what would be my second choice in a Studebaker after a '64 Gran Turismo Hawk--a Daytona Hardtop in Laguna Blue. The oval front fender badge and round grille badge indicates Avanti power; the non-supercharged R1. Tidy 109-inch wheelbase. Only 2,414 of the Daytona Hardtop were built for the '64 run, both in South Bend and Hamilton, ON, combined.

https://www.facebook.com/RoadandTrack/videos/10156162405471091/

ab348

This 1950 Studebaker 1/2 ton pickup seems remarkably original and solid:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1950-studebaker-2r2-12c2box/

I cannot imagine how slow it must be, though, with a 170 C.I. 85 HP six under the hood.

uplanderguy

That is a nice-looking truck. I think I'm going to have to make a habit of checking out BaT.

Mr_Shiftright

Found this truck in a warehouse. Not sure of the year but firewall tag says "E5-136456". It's rough but restorable.

Mr_Shiftright

6 cylinder.

uplanderguy

E5 is a 1960.

uplanderguy

I like Champ pickups better than the earlier style, although folks goof on them. I think the wide, long bed, despite width, actually matches the styling of the Studebaker cab better than the 1959-60 Dodge cab it was originally designed for. I could very-much like a '63 or '64 Champ long wide bed, whitewalls, Deluxe cab trim, in red or green. But I know it's not for everybody.

The only other early sixties pickup I like as well are the Ford unibody pickups of '61-63. When Ford found out they weren't holding up in daily use, they reintroduced the '57-60 bed on the '61 and newer cab. The width matched but the styling didn't at all.

Studebaker advertised that the Champ was the lowest-priced pickup in America, and that even the basic model was more upholstered inside than other pickups. They also advertised that since the truck weighed less although was still GVW-rated the same as other pickups, you could haul more in a Champ, LOL. The sliding window and 5-speed trans were exclusive in that size.

Champs remind me of the first Dodge Dakota pickups in character, although I can't state a single similar styling feature.

Mr_Shiftright

The grille has some resemblance.

toomanyfumes

My uncles worked for AMC,so did my Dad for a while. My Mom always had an Oldsmobile Cutlass, Dad had a Gremlin for a work car. Mom always called it tinny or a tin can. Maybe some carpeting would have quieted it some.

Mr_Shiftright

You'd be amazed (or not) how carpeting quiets a car down.

uplanderguy

Here's a Champ I'd like, leaving the set of "Mr. Ed":

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?76096-Eh-Peripatetic-Mr-Ed-And-his-Champ-hauler

ab348

The Great Race came to town yesterday and there were several Studebakers taking part. I snagged pics of a couple en route.





I had a brief chat with this driver as he waited at the signals. He seemed very pleased and said "Thanks for having us!" when I welcomed him to town.

There were others that I missed. My phone camera lost focus a few times for reasons that are a mystery so some shots were useless. Here is another participating Studie that the race website captured yesterday:




Full set of pics in this post and those that follow.

https://www.greatrace.com/

uplanderguy

Thanks; I just posted a comment about the one Stude you posted in another Edmunds forum!

The white Sky Hawk is a favorite model of mine.....no fins, hardtop body style, Stude 289 V8, rarer in production than the Golden Hawk that year.

Nice four-door Land Cruiser there, too. Stude folks pooh-pooh the styling compared to the Loewy coupes, but I say....compared to Big Three sedans of '53 and '54? They look modern in comparison to my eyes. Stude styling makes the cars look smaller than they are...a Land Cruiser of that era has a 120 inch wheelbase, pretty long actually.

The name of the river behind the blue '55 Stude is sort-of humorous with a Stude in front of it.

uplanderguy

I cannot imagine how slow it must be, though, with a 170 C.I. 85 HP six under the hood.

Supposedly it has the larger "Commander" six, 102 whopping horses, 245 CID.

uplanderguy

Another clip from the '64 dealer promotional film "Different By Design", with the Daytona convertible in silver with red bucket seats. Dig that happenin' music! Personally, "smoked fish" never struck me as a way to impress a young lady, LOL. A '64 convert is a 'holy grail' to a lot of Stude guys...only 484 built in South Bend and 219 in Hamilton, Ontario. A friend of mine has a black one with blue interior--the only one built in South Bend that combination (I noticed this from a club magazine article that listed all the South Bend-built '64 converts by colors and optional equipment--his was built the day before Thanksgiving, 1963--five days after JFK was assassinated).

https://www.facebook.com/RoadandTrack/videos/10156303014221091/UzpfSTIyMDkwMTYwNzU6MTAxNTUyNzAyMTc3MzYwNzY/

Mr_Shiftright

Fun to look at!

I never liked the term "Avanti Engine". There is no such thing. Yeah, I know. Marketing.

omarman

Kramer in the back seat? And again on the beach.

uplanderguy

I never liked the term "Avanti Engine". There is no such thing. Yeah, I know. Marketing.

We've had this conversation before. The engine is the same displacement as other 289 Stude V8's, but there are internal changes that upped the horsepower and compression, besides the chrome cosmetic items. That horsepower and compression had not been used in a 289 Studebaker prior to the introduction of the Avanti. Similarly, other than the "Corvette" valve covers and whatever changes it took to fit in the Corvette engine compartment, there aren't any internal differences between a 250 hp 327 in a '62 Corvette and a 250 hp 327 in a '62 Biscayne. Heads are the same...and that's right out of the Chevy shop manual. Later 'Vettes--OK.

Really, it's no different than Ford putting "Thunderbird Powered" badges on their '56 sedans when so-equipped.