Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy

Found this pic in an old club magazine, of an apparent parade of 1963 models queuing in front of the Studebaker Administration Building in South Bend in 1963. Two Benzes shown; coupe in front of the building and fintail along the side street. This is the same building shown on page 129, that I took a pic of last month.

berri

I like the old fashion outside siren on that Lark.

fintail

Cool pic showing off the wide whites that MB used through MY 1964. Both MBs appear to be W111s.

uplanderguy

A couple things strike me about the photo....one is that a Daytona Wagonaire in front is shown with dog dish caps and blackwalls, and that the Gran Turismo Hawk three cars back also has blackwalls (full wheel covers were standard on Hawks). Third...not an Avanti in this picture.

My guess is that the Benz parked right out front was being driven by an exec--perhaps Egbert?

fintail

It was probably someone important, those were expensive cars. I believe a 220SE coupe then was about $8K, probably a tough proposition for most American buyers when the car was a midsize coupe with a 134 cubic inch engine. But for that money you got tech, high build quality, and timeless styling.

uplanderguy

That is serious money for the time! The last Studebaker Avanti built, which is in the Crawford Museum in Cleveland, is an R3 engine (one of only nine factory-installed in Avantis) and it stickered at between $6,000 and $6,100, and that was crazy money then.

The one Champ pickup shown at the rear of the pic, turning a corner, has the Studebaker-factory "Conestoga" camper option, new for '63.

uplanderguy

I think I posted this link not terribly long ago, but I'm always impressed that for the size of Studebaker, compared to the rest of the American industry at the time, they were still building large trucks like this right up until South Bend assembly closed, in late Dec. '63:

https://skoshi8.deviantart.com/art/Studebaker-1964-E45-Diesel-01-484784083

uplanderguy

Sure I've mentioned it, but Egbert's (and his successor's) secretary, Martha Rich Fleener, married Lon Fleener, president of M-B Sales Inc. during the Studebaker era of M-B. I was delighted to have met her a couple times and she was extremely approachable. She was widowed at the time and came into the Studebaker National Museum on the annual May swap meet weekend on the arm of a priest from Notre Dame! She said she still kept in touch with Egbert's widow all those years later. A friend tried to sweet-talk her to no end, to get an interview with Mrs. Egbert, but Martha would politely steer the conversation elsewhere, LOL. Still the 'gatekeeper', LOL. At that time she lived in California but actually flew back a couple times to South Bend during Studebaker Drivers' Club events there.

fintail

I wonder how many diesels sold back then, as I assume they were still a very niche product. Interesting that people connected to the company participated decades later.

An $8K coupe would have been expensive, and the convertibles were close to $10K, I think. They were pretty top of the line. At the same time, a more normal 220SE fintail like mine was a little over $5K, I believe. The top of the line 300SE cars were more expensive, especially in coupe and cabrio form - I think the 300SE cabrio might have been something like $11-12K by 1965-66.

uplanderguy

Wasn't the 600 limo something like $25K then?

fintail

Yeah those would have been insanely expensive and low production, competing with a Rolls-Royce Phantom (a standard R-R Silver Cloud was around $15K, I think). I am not sure how many 600s were officially imported in the early years, very few no doubt. Most non-grey market cars I see seem to be after 1966-67 or so.

berri

Hey, I remember years back that some rental car company picked me up at the Detroit Airport in a K car Chrysler limo Why do they call DTW "Detroit" when the only big place it is convenient to is Dearborn and Ford?

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Wasn't the 600 limo something like $25K then?

Depends what year. MB was losing lots of money on each one, so the prices escalated from the low $20Ks at introduction to over $30K by 1971. I don't know what the final MSRP was--they made that car for quite some time.

uplanderguy

I've read that it was the most-expensive car ever available at a Studebaker dealer.

uplanderguy

Recent '61 Lark convertible sale at Mecum for $22,500. I like the Flamingo color; like the car better than that earlier '61 sold, but still not crazy about it.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/DN0618-343051/1961-studebaker-lark-viii-regal-convertible/

bhill2

uplanderguy said:

Recent '61 Lark convertible sale at Mecum for $22,500. I like the Flamingo color; like the car better than that earlier '61 sold, but still not crazy about it.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/DN0618-343051/1961-studebaker-lark-viii-regal-convertible/

Pretty car. Not the original engine, but probably more fun to drive. I like the 3 + OD. That would make it a great cruiser.

uplanderguy

I see nothing that makes me think that wouldn't be the original engine, although the build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum would verify for sure.

fintail

Saw this parking lot sighting posted on another forum:

bhill2

uplanderguy said:

I see nothing that makes me think that wouldn't be the original engine, although the build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum would verify for sure.

Hmmm, I didn't think they offered the 289 in the Lark until '63 or so.

Edit: Never mind. I looked it up and they offered the 289 starting in ‘61. Oops.

uplanderguy

Ugh! on that truck! Thanks for posting though.

On a Stude FB page, a fellow posted the original invoice of his Dad's Avanti, which he recently inherited. Looks like Dad traded in a '60 190SL.

fintail

The pickup would be a lot better with less trendy wheels. Resto-mod.

Not bad trade-in on the 190SL, it was a discontinued model by then.

uplanderguy

I have heard that when that pickup body was introduced for the '49 model year, it was considered quite modern as the running boards were inside the door, and the bed was double-walled and lacked the typical 'rolled edge' at the top. Running that styling, basically, through '59 was pushing it though!

uplanderguy

My hometown Chevy dealer always made my Dad think he was getting really good trade-in value too--but if he didn't have a trade, they'd start at less-than-sticker. That's an old trick I think. Still, that amount above is a good chunk of the sticker price of the new car.

ab348

That Avanti invoice is fascinating. Not a cheap car by any means in 1963. Must have felt quite different from the 190 on the test drive. The options pricing is interesting. I know radios were typically quite expensive back then even for a straight AM unit, but I don't see it priced on there, unless it says "NO RADIO" which might be the case though I dunno why that would be spelled out.

uplanderguy

I think it does say "NO RADIO". Since it wasn't standard, I don't know why they'd have bothered spelling that out, either.

That invoice would be for a '64-model Avanti, although the invoice says "63". I had heard you could specify "round headlights" or "square headlights" for '64, but if you specified "round", you'd get a car that was already built during the '63 run but sitting in factory stock.

ADDENDUM: I went back and looked at the photo of the car the owner posted. It has round lights, supposedly out-of-production in Aug. '63.

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Recent '61 Lark convertible sale at Mecum for $22,500. I like the Flamingo color; like the car better than that earlier '61 sold, but still not crazy about it.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/DN0618-343051/1961-studebaker-lark-viii-regal-convertible/

About market correct for a nice one. Hammer price would be about $20,000 without commissions.

fintail

Late run Stude on BaT

And something you could have bought from a Stude dealer

ab348

That '66 Daytona is very nice, but it's a shame they had to use a 283 Chevy in the latter models, IMO.

The Benz coupe is gorgeous, though I shudder to think of what replacing that wood over the instrument cluster might cost.

fintail

Budget a couple grand to refinish it and reinstall it just to be safe.

uplanderguy

That Benz is the same model as in that '63 photo of South Bend I posted last week or so, right?

To my uneducated eyes, I think that style is one of the most-appealing Benz styling jobs.

I'll be curious what that '66 Stude brings. Funny, the 283 in my '66 has caused me more headaches than any of the three Stude V8's I owned previously! LOL One good thing--it doesn't drip a bit of oil.

I had a '66 Daytona Sports Sedan V8 prior to my Cruiser. It had been restored but I just didn't like it all that much. It's in Australia. I sold it in 2012 for $12.5K.

Just a personal thing for me--I wouldn't want another 283-powered Stude two-door sedan. The frame is lighter gauge than any other Stude model of the same years--verified to the parts and shop manuals--and although the 283 is lighter than the Stude V8's, the way it is engineered to sit in the Stude chassis results in frame cracks around the front spring pockets. I decided a 283 was probably a good thing in getting a shop to work on mine, but I knew I wanted a four-door because of the frame gauge.

In '64 and before, only the 6-cylinder two-door sedan Larks had the lighter-gauge frames. For some reason, the Chevy-powered V8's got them too.

An unusual thing about that '66 two-door--in a Daytona by that time, buckets and console were standard and the bench seat was optional. That car is very authentic to my eyes. '66 Daytonas came standard with transistorized ignition which was optional on other models that year.

I had always heard that from Jan-Mar '66, only about 2,000 Studebakers were built. There were 8,947 '66 Studes of all bodystyles--two-door sedan, four-door sedan, fixed-and-sliding roof wagons.

uplanderguy

What the differences are between a U.S. 283 and a "McKinnon Industries div. of GM", built in Canada, 283. This fellow is the Stude engine guru in the national club. He posted this last year. Just FYI:

The McKinnon engines used a forged crank versus bread and butter Us engines having a cast crank. They also used the early 283 power pack heads (rectangle with a triangle) whereas domestic engines used the two barrel heads. The McKinnon engines used the wider early timing set where by 65/66 domestic smallblock timing sets were narrower. I believe but I have not verified it that the blocks were a HD casting with cylinder walls thick enough that you could bore it .125 to 4". The rods also had a little heavier beam section which was the same as the 327. It was a good motor. The crank was the same one used on the early production small journal Z28 302's.

fintail

Yep, that's like the one in the old pic. Only difference I see (I think it was also pointed out in the ad) is that the auction car has 14" or 15" wheels from a 250SE 1966-67 or so.

I like the under-dash AC in the car, these were dealer-installed, as MB wouldn't get factory air for some time.

uplanderguy

Someone pointed out that the Stude shows overdrive trans on the window sticker, but it has a Flightomatic. Text says "changed before delivery". I find that very hard-to-believe.

isellhondas

An Avanti didn't even come with a RADIO?

For the life of me, I can't fathom how anyone could have even considered for a minute buying an Avanti when a Buick Riviera could have been bought for the same money. I know I must be missing something here.


A Thunderbird, perhaps but not an Avanti.

berri

I recall as a young kid that my very pragmatic engineer uncle didn't listen to a car radio, so he didn't want to pay for one when he purchased a brand new 63 Buick. So there a piece of material that matched the dash instead. But the big Buick came with a radio, so when he ordered it, it was a radio delete option. Maybe that was the case on the Avanti? I don't really know though.

uplanderguy

I am hard-pressed to think of any car that came with a radio standard at that time. In fact, I can't think of any, including Cadillac. "Delete option", when people say that, is really inaccurate as radios were optional. In fact, I very plainly recall a '72 Cadillac Calais, new, at our hometown dealer without a radio. It had a hunk of black plastic where the radio would be.

Personally, I think an Avanti is more of a Corvette with back seat, than sold opposite Riviera or Thunderbird. And hey, they even came with a three-speed automatic and disc brakes!

fintail

MBs shipped without a radio from the factory, radios were dealer or owner installed. You'll see old MBs with the blanking plate wearing the model designation.

uplanderguy

Another thing about Rivs compared to Avantis--no manual trans, 3-or 4-speed, was available in a Riv.

Studebaker promoted performance in Avanti.

I always liked the bottom two pics in this showroom brochure:

uplanderguy

Although a good friend of mine has a very, very nice '63 Riviera, I'd take an Avanti over one any day of the week. Far, far rarer--like ten-to-one for Riv production over Avanti. The Riv is more mainstream styling for sure. But on the '63 and '64, I'm not a fan of the chrome fake side scoops, Chinese lantern corners up front, inboard headlights, and somewhat non-descript taillights. I do of course like the long-hood/short-deck proportions, which was new to GM at that time. Those Rivs are pretty affordable now. Very original or authentic Studebaker Avantis have been creeping up.

Mr_Shiftright

The Avanti is definitely sportier and probably more fun to drive. The early Rivs are BOATS--they bounce and wallow all over the place. I do think the Riv is prettier, though, both in period and now, out of period. But both cars have their areas of appeal.

The Avanti was priced in the ballpark of the Corvette and Riviera, but production delays, as well as rumors of Studebaker's inevitable collapse, really hurt the car.

Speaking of boats, the '63 Benz coupe is a big heavy car and it feels like it. You aren't going to be tossing that one around. Good road manners, though, although that engine winds up pretty tight on American highways--which it is built to handle, no problem--but it's not a whisper-quiet road car and it has to really work to push that car around. Nonetheless, you'd probably want the automatic in that car, because the manual gearshift is pretty dreadful. You could probably improve it though, with some clever modification. It just feels strange to shift in such a big, heavy, dignified automobile.

uplanderguy

Back to that '66 Stude on BaT--I think that red vinyl seating is awesome....rarely seen but factory-stock. Especially for a car of that size and price and at that time.

fintail

My fintail weighs like 3100 lbs, I can't imagine a coupe is more than a couple hundred pounds heavier. A 300SE, with a larger engine and complex suspension, may be heavier. Cars like the fintail just feel heavy, due to the gauge of metal, and high build quality.

I am pleased that my car is an automatic - at least the coupes had a floor shift manual, the sedans were a 4 on the tree, which I don't like in city driving, this car is for relaxing driving. The automatics in these cars shift harsh compared to modern cars (no torque converter), but are very durable.

isellhondas

fintail said:

MBs shipped without a radio from the factory, radios were dealer or owner installed. You'll see old MBs with the blanking plate wearing the model designation.

This 450 SLC I just picked up has the original Becker "Mexico" radio. I'm not impressed with all of the static!

isellhondas

fintail said:

My fintail weighs like 3100 lbs, I can't imagine a coupe is more than a couple hundred pounds heavier. A 300SE, with a larger engine and complex suspension, may be heavier. Cars like the fintail just feel heavy, due to the gauge of metal, and high build quality.

I am pleased that my car is an automatic - at least the coupes had a floor shift manual, the sedans were a 4 on the tree, which I don't like in city driving, this car is for relaxing driving. The automatics in these cars shift harsh compared to modern cars (no torque converter), but are very durable.

I think the 450 Coupe is 3900 pounds! I can tell you, it's HEAVY!

fintail

It may just need a servicing. Becker NA is still around, based in NJ I think, and they refurbish old radios. My fintail has a Becker Europa, and I had them rebuild it about 10 years ago - wonderful job, and not insanely expensive.

I would strongly advise to keep the original radio if you plan to sell the car in the future, MB enthusiasts are really into Becker radios.

I can believe the SLC is 3900 lbs, it is built like a tank. My Bluetec is 4200 lbs, which is more than my old W126 S-class which felt like a tank.

isellhondas said:

This 450 SLC I just picked up has the original Becker "Mexico" radio. I'm not impressed with all of the static!

berri

Hey Up, out of curiosity I looked around the Internet on a 63 Buick LeSabre standard equipment and just like you said, radios were optional as well as power steering and brakes. What surprised me the most though was that even the heater and defroster were options on a big Buick coupe. Man, times have changed, maybe thanks to the entry of Japanese imports where just about everything was standard equipment. Sometimes many of us forget just how much cars have changed over the decades.

Kind of funny that back in the old days vinyl was an upscale option. I think Pontiac called it something like Morrokide and I forget the name of that sort of crinkle cut optional vinyl seats on some of the Mopars. Of course, lately leather seats probably have more vinyl on them than leather, and a lot of it really resembles basic vinyl as well.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

My fintail weighs like 3100 lbs, I can't imagine a coupe is more than a couple hundred pounds heavier. A 300SE, with a larger engine and complex suspension, may be heavier. Cars like the fintail just feel heavy, due to the gauge of metal, and high build quality.

I am pleased that my car is an automatic - at least the coupes had a floor shift manual, the sedans were a 4 on the tree, which I don't like in city driving, this car is for relaxing driving. The automatics in these cars shift harsh compared to modern cars (no torque converter), but are very durable.

That coupe is about 3,300 lbs, and the engine rated at 134 HP. So power to weight ratio of 1:25. Not ideal, no.

fintail

And I think those are the "old" hp, so real world power is a bit less. My car (same engine) might be able to do 0-60 in 11-12 seconds, which is adequate, they aren't like a 200D automatic or something.

Mr_Shiftright said:

That coupe is about 3,300 lbs, and the engine rated at 134 HP. So power to weight ratio of 1:25. Not ideal, no.

Mr_Shiftright

The specs say 0-60 in about 14 seconds for a 220SE Coupe. Having driven a few, I'd say that's about right.

fintail

Especially if you let it shift for itself. If I leave the fintail to its own devices, it goes into 4th around 25-30 mph. Holding it for another 10 mph or so probably takes a second off the run, and as you know, the cars run nicer when revved, too.