Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy

I'd heard the story before, but a friend of mine and his cousin were at the meet. In the spring and summer of '63 they had taken assembly-line tours at Studebaker. There was a small coffee shop and restaurant called "The Toasty Shop" a short half-block from the Administration Building. They saw a gold Avanti in the lot and stopped in for breakfast. Sherwood Egbert was at the counter drinking coffee and reading a paper. They were too nervous to approach him though in hindsight wished they had. The Avanti was what he climbed into.

uplanderguy

fintail, posted the M-B photo on my Facebook page and a Studebaker friend who was not at the meet posted this; just FYI:

I remember driving one of those back in the day. It was equipped with the optional Hydrak transmission. 4 speed manual shift on the tree, with no clutch pedal. Very interesting.

Accurate?

uplanderguy

The '64 Commander Special that ab348 posted here a few days ago is bid to $12,000 with five days left. That's more than I'd have thought. The Commander Special was a Canada-only model that combined the two-door sedan body with the Daytona's interior trim (Daytonas in '64 were only hardtops, convertibles, and Wagonaires). No R1's were being built at the time this car was assembled. The ad says the engine build date was April '64. No engines were made in Canada for '64 Studebakers; the engine plant operated in South Bend 'til Aug. '64 to provide engines for Canadian Studebakers (last South Bend-built Studes were made Dec. 20, 1963).

I know photos can hide a lot but that car presents well IMHO.

fintail

That's right, a Hydrak is a clutchless manual 4 on the tree. The clutch was actuated by moving the shift lever. Hydraks were often troublesome due to operator error - just like with a manual car, you were supposed to let off the throttle while shifting - people often didn't follow this, and it created problems. Also, resting your hand on the lever or moving the shift lever too often while not intending to shift could create issues. Hydrak is usually found on Pontons, but I think was optional on early fintails. By 1962-63, MB had their own in-house 4-speed automatic, the fluid coupling style unit as found in my car. Adenauers were available with an automatic earlier, but it was a Borg-Warner unit that I don't think was offered on other models. Many Hydrak cars were converted, but I think surviving examples are now preserved due to historic curiosity.

uplanderguy said:

fintail, posted the M-B photo on my Facebook page and a Studebaker friend who was not at the meet posted this; just FYI:

I remember driving one of those back in the day. It was equipped with the optional Hydrak transmission. 4 speed manual shift on the tree, with no clutch pedal. Very interesting.

Accurate?

uplanderguy

Nice pic in the link below, of three Studes parked alongside old Stude building 113 which has been repurposed into an internet and data center. I was there for the tour but stupidly left my phone and camera at the hotel. The fire truck is from nearby Clay Twp. Our young tour guide works for them and although the township bought the '58 Stude truck new, it was used until the eighties and comes out for parade duties and such and is under the stewardship of Chris, our tour guide that night. Amazingly, the old body building right behind is I think six stories high, and our tour included going out on the roof--no rails--where we got a great overview of downtown South Bend. These buildings are right behind the Administration Building, which has been empty since 2004 (Studebaker sold it to the South Bend School Corporation for $1 in 1969) and has fallen into disrepair and has evidence of some intrusion by scrappers and the like.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1925612830791096&set=a.872563592762697.1073741826.100000271941711&type=3&theater

fintail

Unusual local story involving a Studebaker

ab348

"I'm a-gonna fix it up someday..."

uplanderguy

I had heard of this car being stolen, from the S.D.C.'s forum fairly recently. My first reaction was, "How does somebody think they can get away with stealing a car like that?".

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, you can part 'em out, or put them in a container and ship them overseas, or swap VINs with a wreck I guess.

uplanderguy

With production paperwork available and monitored pretty closely by Avanti owners that I'm familiar with, it would come back to haunt somebody--sometime. We're only talking 809 '64 Avantis built. Parting out, yes, but the registry even tracks serial nos. parted out--when somebody provides it, of course.

uplanderguy

I'm pretty stunned. $24,250 for a '64 Studebaker Commander two-door sedan, and not supercharged either.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1964-studebaker-commander-special/

ab348

I thought it was nice. Maybe not THAT nice though.

Mr_Shiftright

The 4-speed is pretty rare, but still, it's an outlier price and really makes no sense.

But hey, buyer happy, seller very happy, everybody happy

As they say in the auction business: "Well Sold!"

The only downside of these outlier results is that every decrepit '64 Studebaker will now come out of the woodwork.

uplanderguy

I would've thought maybe $10K or $11K, but not based on anything more than what I would've paid.

I have pretty big doubts as to the originality of that engine as presented. In fact, I posted to that effect there. But, it presents nice, and (shocker) I like those cars. I love Studebakers of the '63-64 model years best of all but for that kind of money I'd have looked for an excellent, original or authentically-restored Hawk or convertible.

berri

I like that Studebaker fire truck in your picture. Tacoma, Bremerton, Crime Stoppers - when in the Seattle area I always get a kick out of that news broadcaster David Rose.

ab348

Interesting '61 Lark convertible on BaT today. Honestly unsure if I like it.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1961-studebaker-lark-vii/

uplanderguy

Thanks for posting, but I don't care for that car at all.

If that's the production order for this car, it was built in the one-year-only, convertible-and-Hawk only "Flamingo" which is a salmon color which I like on a convert. It was also built with tan vinyl interior.

The fact that the VIN on the production order and the serial tag inside the door don't match is a total turn-off to me as well.

The '60 is cuter IMHO. The '61 had that odd, one-year-only, side molding higher than the feature lines in the sheetmetal. The '62 and later are much-more appealing IMHO too. The only thing I really liked about the '61 versus the '60 is the chromier taillights. The '61's are a lower production year than '60 or '62 or '63 too.

This one will be interesting to see what it brings. I'm not predicting $24K, LOL.

Mr_Shiftright

That Lark is pretty much a rat. I'd be surprised if it got past $10K and even then, there's a lot that has to be made right. Not a very professional restoration, even back in the day when people weren't so fussy.

uplanderguy

Showing the production order for the car just highlights all the things that were redone in non-original fashion, LOL.

Mr_Shiftright

It's the very kind of "classic" you don't want. Not cheap enough to buy and tear it apart and start all over, and too rich to improve what you've got without being buried.

ab348

It seems unusual that so many things were (badly) changed given the previous owner who had the work done was the head of a driver's club chapter.

berri

One of those things Larry the Cable Guy would say "get 'er done"

uplanderguy

I've been around long enough in the S.D.C. to know that a lot of people look for a car that matches the production order. I like that myself. That car is a mongrel, although not my car, so whatever, LOL.

fintail

Yesterday I attended (in the modern car, too far of a highway drive for the old dear) a gathering for local online car community members, and a Studebaker was in attendance. The owner trailered it to the meeting point, and drove it to the planned destination - this would be around a 90 mile round trip for the car (easier roads than the interstate). It's an unusual machine with a lot of patina:







As one can see, this is an ex-Minnesota car. The owner's dad is apparently a Stude nut, and gave it to him as a project. The rust appears to be from improper storage rather than hard use, as the frame/structure/floors are all apparently good. The car has a 289 which sounded excellent and started and ran without a hiccup, I was impressed. And it made it to the destination without issue, up to just over 4000 ft elevation:





The car is set to be a long term project, and might be a good kid bonding object, as the owner's young daughter already loves it. It already has new/NOS upholstery,

ab348

Rust in the heels of the front fenders behind the air intake doors seems to have been a common problem with Studes. I guess they did not have inner fenders either judging from the rust-out on the fender top behind the headlight pod?

uplanderguy

That car is a '57 President Classic...120.5 inch wheelbase. The '56 and '57 Studebaker sedans were made to look more conservative/mainstream, which is what Company president and former Packard president James J. Nance had wanted. I have always liked the low beltline of these sedans. I always thought the similarity between taillights on the '57 Pontiac and these cars was funny, considering they were out at the same time.

Most cars of that era did not have inner fenders. Where I live, '58 Chevys rusted in the same area--above the headlights. Now, Studes were famous for rusting directly in front of the front doors. I will say that of the four I've owned, none had rust there, although I believe my '63 had had replacement front fenders sometime before I got the car. The other three had their original rust-free front fenders. Stude fenders and quarters were bolt-on, a positive thing IMHO.

Studebaker V8's are very sturdy engines, especially in the lower end. They are heavy and oil leakers, for what that's worth.

uplanderguy

Here's a '56 President Classic I snapped while out in South Bend a couple or so weeks ago. Took it as my brother-in-law always says he remembered his old boss driving one in these colors...'Mocha' and 'Doeskin':

omarman

If it's driveable as is, then I'd do the tires/brakes/safety upgrades and start cruising. Keep the faux leopard interior too.

fintail

The owner has a pair of NOS fenders, but I think he is concerned about disrupting the patina of the car. I think eventually he will get to it. The car made a ~100 mile round trip including a significant elevation change, without hassle. Seems like a good one, if it can handle that.

I suggested some wide whitewall radials would really set it off.

omarman

Wide whitewalls would be a great upgrade. So far as the fenders...
I'm trying to remember when Andre took his DeSoto to the shop and there was a fender replacement or repair?
Either way, the next issue then was whether to paint or maybe not paint at that time or place.

I don't recall how that DeSoto project turned out but once body panels get replaced that will definitely "disrupt the patina" so how far to go next?

Funny thing about those people standing around that Studebaker smiling is, I like looking at it too. Patina and all.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

The owner has a pair of NOS fenders, but I think he is concerned about disrupting the patina of the car. I think eventually he will get to it. The car made a ~100 mile round trip including a significant elevation change, without hassle. Seems like a good one, if it can handle that.

I suggested some wide whitewall radials would really set it off.

That's not patina. Those are rust holes. Or "neglect" is another good descriptor.

However, that brown staining you see? THAT'S patina.

fintail

Is the difference between neglect and patina visible holes?

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's not patina. Those are rust holes. Or "neglect" is another good descriptor.

However, that brown staining you see? THAT'S patina.

uplanderguy

I remember when a vendor in WI would advertise monthly in the national club magazine, "Turning Wheels", NOS '56-58 front fenders for $75.00. I see the major Stude parts vendor is listing them now at $650. '64-66 NOS front fenders are $225, happily.

fintail

The current price seems pretty cheap too. Stude people are lucky to have such a resource. MB has ample mechanical bits for cars even older than fintails, but I think body panels are a different story. I know at least a while back, they had a batch of NOS bumpers, but the price was quite dear. I noticed the chrome on that 57 President had held up pretty well, it was presentable.

uplanderguy

In '93 I bought a bunch of sheetmetal for my '63 as it was going to the restoration shop. I distinctly remember paying $250 for a NOS pair of rear quarters. That was their annual May sale price though. Not sure if they have any of those left now. Mostly '64-66 sheetmetal left, since that's what was being stamped when South Bend shut down. There are Champ pickup beds and side panels in NOS still, as I saw them when I was at Studebaker International in South Bend a few weeks back.

uplanderguy

It's funny; the general consensus out there is "you can't find parts for a Stude". It's probably one of the easier/cheaper cars to get NOS and also repro for--even trim. I got a NOS interior (seat trim and door panels) for my '63 for Christmas one year. My wife had her little brother drive out to South Bend and back in the same day to get them.

fintail

I expect the survival rate for these cars is high, as some saved them when they became orphans, and they appear to have been well-built to begin with. Maybe like the Edsel phenomenon, where so many survived. That can help parts availability, too.

For old MBs, you can get almost anything - I've barely had issues sourcing bits for the fintail. The only thing limiting you is your budget.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

Is the difference between neglect and patina visible holes?

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's not patina. Those are rust holes. Or "neglect" is another good descriptor.

However, that brown staining you see? THAT'S patina.

Well not to be all prissy about it, but "patina" means a FILM of something--a thin coating, of perhaps revealed primer, light surface rust, marks and scratches perhaps, some paint checking, etc.

It doesn't mean "I can put my arm through it".

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

I expect the survival rate for these cars is high, as some saved them when they became orphans, and they appear to have been well-built to begin with. Maybe like the Edsel phenomenon, where so many survived. That can help parts availability, too.

For old MBs, you can get almost anything - I've barely had issues sourcing bits for the fintail. The only thing limiting you is your budget.

There are a few standouts in the collector car world, for having an outstanding parts supply---the ones you guys mentioned, and the obvious VW and Ford Model A---but also MG. You can even order an entire new body for an MGB. I guess 60s Chevys are pretty good, too.

uplanderguy

Here's a nice-looking, authentic-looking '57 President Classic. At first glance, I thought the interior wouldn't be right as I know '56's had a rear-seat center armrest....but then, I thought, "Well, in '57 the Packard Clipper became the top of the Studebaker line", so I bet the President was pushed down a little.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/CH0911-115584/1957-studebaker-president-classic/

ab348

It's a shame Studebaker could never afford to refresh the greenhouse on their cars for all those years. By the late '50s/early '60s that side profile with those door windows must have looked pretty ancient.

berri

I think their sales were held back a bit also due to smaller dimensions than a lot of comparable Detroit iron. Ironically, George Romney used the big 58 recession to market the same shortfall Rambler as an economy advantage.

By the late '50s/early '60s that side profile with those door windows must have looked pretty ancient.

If you look back to the early 60's, the squared off Studebaker probably looked more modern in a way because GM and Ford had gone fairly conservative in styling. In a couple of short years the excess of 1958/59 Detroit styling kind of took a big U-Turn. But by then I think most consumers were frightened about buying an orphan if they chose Studebaker.

uplanderguy

Actually, Studebaker had its biggest one-year profit in its over-100-year history, in 1959. This is after the bloodbath of the merger years--$43 mil loss in '56; $11 mil in '57; $13 mil in '58.

The greenhouse was restyled for the '63 model run. A '63 is my very favorite four-door Stude, even though I own a '66.

To my eyes, although it wasn't a sales advantage then most-likely, but I like that no Stude I can think of looks fat. I can't say that about the Big Three.

berri

I think that is probably true for all of their postwar cars. Not familiar with much prewar. Seemed to always have a bit of an European influence perhaps.

fintail

Of course these are old cars, not bronzes

You know the trend among the trust fund hipster set is to simulate patina by sanding down paint and chemically inducing rust.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well not to be all prissy about it, but "patina" means a FILM of something--a thin coating, of perhaps revealed primer, light surface rust, marks and scratches perhaps, some paint checking, etc.

It doesn't mean "I can put my arm through it".

uplanderguy

ADDENDUM: Actually, the Studebaker roofline was changed in the rear portion, in 1962, although was totally new in '63. Luckily, Hawks never got the trendy wraparound windshield.

omarman

Mr_Shiftright said:

fintail said:

Is the difference between neglect and patina visible holes?

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's not patina. Those are rust holes. Or "neglect" is another good descriptor.

However, that brown staining you see? THAT'S patina.

Well not to be all prissy about it, but "patina" means a FILM of something--a thin coating, of perhaps revealed primer, light surface rust, marks and scratches perhaps, some paint checking, etc.

It doesn't mean "I can put my arm through it".

LOL! That's foxworthy worthy.
If it's safe to wash your hooptie without a tetanus shot, it might be just patina...

uplanderguy

That red '61 Lark VIII Regal convertible we discussed a few days back sold for $6,500.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1961-studebaker-lark-vii/

Mr_Shiftright

Seems about right for what it was.

ab348

Another Lark convertible on BaT, this time a '63. I like this one better than the red one we saw last week though it has a few flaws, but nothing like the other one.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-studebaker-lark-daytona-convertible-v8/