Postwar Studebakers

fintail

Sinclair is a group that owns countless TV stations - no doubt encouraged as we live in an oligocracy, And has very questionable business practices and biases - of course, the sons of the founder run it, I am sure they work hard and built it themselves

Probably is a venue for Russian money laundering too, yeah - what isn't these days?

berri said:

I think I once saw that Sinclair station. Is it the one with the Ruskie like accent guy spouting off editorials in the middle of the news? I'm not sure this guy has much influence with viewers because of his accent and delivery. Badly needs some speech and broadcasting training.

uplanderguy

Good question. They were fiberglass bodies, but the "hog troughs" as steel supports under the car were called, were known to rust.

fintail

Hopefully something like an Avanti wasn't used up and thrown away, but if it ended up in the wrong claimate and wrong hands, who knows.

uplanderguy

My "dream" lineup is a '64 Daytona convertible or hardtop, a '64 Gran Turismo Hawk with half vinyl top, a '63 Cruiser with Skytop and broadcloth interior, a longbed '62-64 Champ half-ton pickup with white-stripe tires, and for now, a '64 Avanti R2 with the late-in-the-run "thick" seatbacks and in the 'Elk' color interior. I vascillate on '63 versus '64 Avantis. I think a one-ton '62-64 Transtar truck in diesel could be interesting.

berri

Where's the Wagonaire?

fintail

I might be in a minority, but I like the Avanti with round lights and bezels.

berri

I prefer the round too.

The Studebaker that really intrigued me was the 1967 prototypes.

uplanderguy

For a long time I liked the round lights too--as the car was originally designed. I like the lack of woodgrain interior too. But I like the thick seatbacks, bigger front-fender "Supercharged" nameplates, and some of the other things. My opinion might change tomorrow though.

I could enjoy a Wagonaire, and I saw a light blue '64 Daytona version a couple times over the years that looked showroom-fresh, but just not in my 'top tier', LOL.

ab348

I know very little about these, but this one seems nice. Unusual colors I suspect.

1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk

uplanderguy

I've not seen one that color and I've never seen one with a different color roof that didn't extend down to the molding on the side. All that said, it's a nice-looking car. The '56 had the Packard engine, which was great for power although pretty heavy, and with automatic trans you got Packard's Ultramatic, great in concept but problems cropped up fairly early. The '57 Golden Hawk had a supercharged Stude engine and a Borg-Warner automatic, but to me, the styling details on the '56 are nicer.

Magazines of the day almost always commented positively on the instrument panel--full gauges, engine-turned panel, etc. I like the simplicity--no goofy shapes as was so typical then.

berri

My dad always liked those Golden and Silver Hawks, but never bought one because we were a one car family with kids. He was mostly a Mopar man back then.

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Good question. They were fiberglass bodies, but the "hog troughs" as steel supports under the car were called, were known to rust.

Yes that was a major vulnerability---always the first thing to check when buying an Avanti.

fintail

Wow cool, that Golden Hawk is in my city. What a color combo, and I love the engine turned dash.

uplanderguy

Looks like a stick--very interesting!

uplanderguy

Yes that was a major vulnerability---always the first thing to check when buying an Avanti.

They've long-been reproduced, and I remember a vendor that advertised them replaced at something like $3K, but even that's been awhile. Some serious bucks for sure.

A guy who has sold hundreds of Studebakers on eBay over the years always says, "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap Avanti", LOL.

berri

That dash is nice looking. It appears to me to have some similarities to Packard and some Mopars of that era as well.

uplanderguy

Matter-of-fact, that dash looks exactly like a Packard Hawk!

berri

LOL

uplanderguy

Well-used interior from a late '64 Avanti. Pic reminds me of magazines' comments about the Avanti having the best "true" buckets in a domestic then...not the usual 4/10 of a bench seat.

http://momentcar.com/image-modelYear/13102-studebaker-avanti-1964-7.jpg.html

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Avanti was just a bit ahead of its time in trying to market a high performance luxury GT car. It wasn't a sports car like a Corvette, it wasn't a cheap and cheerful affordable "sporty" coupe like the Mustang, it wasn't a floaty-boaty and grotesquely opulent T-Bird, and unfortunately, it wasn't as good looking as the similarly marketed and similarly priced Buick Riviera.

fintail

That's an interestingly complex glove box arrangement, never knew they had that.

isellhondas

The Avanti had zero chance against the Riviera and the T-Bird for a number of reasons. At least they tried!

uplanderguy

Funny, I think it was marketed closer to the Corvette than the Riviera and Thunderbird (ads said "....that seats four"). The Hawk was actually marketed against those cars, although was much cheaper and compared to the Thunderbird had a six-inch-longer wheelbase.

Many early Avanti orders were lost as MFG's early bodies were botched. Studebaker eventually ended up making the bodies themselves in South Bend.

As is so often the case with Studebaker I think, so many of their cars were original and not copies of something Big Three. I always liked their '64 slogan "Different....By Design", although in reality most people don't want to be too different I think.

That glovebox had a slide-out "beauty vanity", basically a makeup case with a flip-up mirror. Something similar was also introduced in the '63 Larks, and the '64 and later Lark-types used the Avanti-style slide-out vanity. I wish my '66 Cruiser had it, but by '66 it was optional.

uplanderguy

Concerning the '63 T-Bird and Riviera, for me the T-Bird tries real hard to look like a bird (wings tucked in at the sides--doors). The Riv I like better, but the Chinese-lantern front corners and inset headlights don't do much for me, nor do the fake scoops on the side. I like the '65's clean bodysides and bumper-mounted taillights better. A good friend has a very nice '63 Riviera and they remain pretty affordable IMHO. Ned Nickles gets credit for the Riv's styling although under the auspices of Bill Mitchell (just like Raymond Loewy gets credit for his underlings' work at Studebaker). I've mentioned before that Bill Mitchell grew up in my hometown of Greenville, PA and his official bio must've included that, as I've seen it at the Corvette Museum and also a temporary display I saw at Henry Ford Museum in the early '90's.

Of course, T-Bird, 'Vette and Riv didn't have disc brakes, nor did the 'Vette or Riv have a PRND21 quadrant. I'm not sure about the 'Bird--I think it might have.

Probably doesn't add any practicality, but I liked that some Avanti toggle switches were overhead (above the center of the windshield), and the instrument lights were red.

fintail

In my eyes, I see the Avanti as a step up in prestige vs a Riviera or Thunderbird, I assume the Avanti was more expensive when new. In those terms, I see the Riv as second and then the T-Bird, maybe just due to the brands. I think values these days reflect that too. They are all cool in their own way, but cigar Bird coupes remain pretty cheap even in nice condition.

omarman

"...instrument lights were red."

Red instrument lights were just on the Avanti? For an aviation style or because of some specific shape or angle of the dash?

uplanderguy

I don't know why, other than I think they were going for an aircraft feel with the red lights, overhead switches, and those levers down on the console in that pic. The '64 instruments in the entire Stude car line were lit in red too, but by '66 they were back to being like everybody else's.

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Concerning the '63 T-Bird and Riviera, for me the T-Bird tries real hard to look like a bird (wings tucked in at the sides--doors). The Riv I like better, but the Chinese-lantern front corners and inset headlights don't do much for me, nor do the fake scoops on the side. I like the '65's clean bodysides and bumper-mounted taillights better. A good friend has a very nice '63 Riviera and they remain pretty affordable IMHO. Ned Nickles gets credit for the Riv's styling although under the auspices of Bill Mitchell (just like Raymond Loewy gets credit for his underlings' work at Studebaker). I've mentioned before that Bill Mitchell grew up in my hometown of Greenville, PA and his official bio must've included that, as I've seen it at the Corvette Museum and also a temporary display I saw at Henry Ford Museum in the early '90's.

Of course, T-Bird, 'Vette and Riv didn't have disc brakes, nor did the 'Vette or Riv have a PRND21 quadrant. I'm not sure about the 'Bird--I think it might have.

Probably doesn't add any practicality, but I liked that some Avanti toggle switches were overhead (above the center of the windshield), and the instrument lights were red.

Corvette got discs in 1965. The '65 Vettes are really much better cars to own than the '63 or '64.

The luxury 2+2 idea was a hard sell even for Ferrari. Jaguar's E-Type 2+2 was ugly as sin and nobody liked it.

For some reason, T-Bird got away with it, probably due to the longevity of the name.

isellhondas

Riviera of that era along with other big Buicks had large finned aluminum drums that did a good job of stopping those heavy cars. The Thunderbirds and other full sized Fords were horrible on brakes! Back in the 70's I managed a large Auto Center for a large Sears store and we hated to see these cars come in! They ATE linings and the drums along with them. We were at the bottom of Palos Verdes hill in California and people would ride their brakes coming down that hill. We gave a 40,000 mile warranty on lining at that time. " Well it was YOUR linings that ruined my drums!".., I remember refunding in several cases the entire price they had paid for the brake job just to get rid of them. I would tell them to take it to the dealer or ANYWHERE else! I think the big Ford Station Wagons may have been the worst! In 1965 they started using discs of T Birds as standard equipment and the disks wer optional on other models. The comebacks went away once that started.

Those T-Birds also ate front end parts! At 40,000 miles or less they needed a front end overhaul.

Anyone ever replace upper control arm shafts in one of those? so much fun and dangerous too!

uplanderguy

All that stuff was (is) wayyyyy above my ability!

fintail

Was the Stude-MB link in the US and not Canada? I am in Canada now, and visited an automobilia store. They had a pile of early 60s vintage small size MB promo material - all of it quite common, I didn't buy any, as my car came with some and I don't need it all. I noticed that none of it had any Studebaker markings or origins.

One interesting thing I saw was a small full line fold out pamphlet, I think from late 1961, as it had 4 cyl cars as both Pontons and W110, W111 coupes and cabrios, but still listed the 190SL. Someone had written in prices - I assume in Canadian dollars, but not sure of the exchange rate then. Fintails ranged from $4000-5700, a 190SL was $6300, a 220SE coupe was $10K, a 220SE cabrio was $12K. The latter were big money, as I believe a standard Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud was around $15K then, along with nice spec Ferraris.

ab348

I know the local dealer here was both Stude and M-b, so that suggests the link applied here as well.

Mr_Shiftright

Anyone Want a Brand New '58 Champion?

Interesting story, although I think the price is magnificently silly.

uplanderguy

I read about that '58 a couple years back. For about 100 miles, it has some aftermarket tack-ons, like whatever is on the front fenders, and those reflectors in front.

I wouldn't mind owning a '58 President Hardtop, but that's probably it for '58...other than possibly a Golden Hawk. Although, a couple in our regional club own an original '58 Champion two-door sedan, Shadowtone Red (dark plum color) with beige top and it's a nice, reliable car.

Here's a pic of my hometown Stude-Packard-MB dealer in 1958 (photo courtesy Ed Filer). The sign on the door of the truck says "You Auto Buy Now". Gas tank in back is advertising the Scostsman 2-door sedan, "with heater and turn signals, delivered in Greenville" for $1,855.

By '58, it had been a lean few years for Studebaker. My friend said they had to rebuild the wooden letters over the front of the building a time or two over a twenty-year period. Sorry for the glare and some distortion--it's in a frame on a wall in my office. There's some 'funhouse' look in this copy of the pic that doesn't exist in the actual pic.

uplanderguy

fin, I am not certain about the Stude-MB link in Canada, although it seems that ab348 confirms the link there too.

fintail

Turn signals, how posh! MB sign looks like it might be neon. I am surprised the Filer sign survived in that design for so long, more of a 1938 look than a 1958 look.

uplanderguy

Had that same look through the end, 1968!

fintail

Maybe the traditionalist buyer didn't put much value in period glam to start with. I am sure it made no difference to the buyer of a Scotsman, which featured doors that both open and close, and 4 wheels that move forwards and backwards

omarman

I'm not sure when turn signals became just an ordinary expected thing but the '50 Chevy my family kept from '53 to '77 didn't have them. I found an ad for a "brand new 1964 Falcon Tudor" which boasted "turn signals" at the top of the equipment list. And in smaller print the delivered price in St Petersburg was without heater.

fintail

I've heard of the heater thing. Electric wipers rather than vacuum were a nicety then, I think, and I have seen old cars without armrests.

Come to think of it, maybe signals are a premium feature - I can think of a couple modern cars not always equipped with them, both made in Bavaria, coincidentally

ab348

I remember the '76 or '77 Nova I test-drove in '81 did not have armrests. Could not believe it.

Heaters were optional back in the '50s (but surprised it wasn't standard on Falcons in '64) and I guess not always ordered in southern markets.

I am curious about the "Lifetime Warranty" mentioned in that advert.

uplanderguy

Here's an ad I had on my Facebook page a couple years back, that that Falcon ad reminded me of. A '64 Studebaker could be bought for $1,629...and I'd much-rather have that than a Scotsman or a '64 Falcon for that matter (personal tastes only of course). It would've had turn signals and electric wipers. I think the Climatizer (heater) was still optional, but not sure:

fintail

I suspect the hardtop with the full wheelcovers and whitewalls isn't actually an "example" of the $1629 car

Cool to see that zero down was a thing even then.

uplanderguy

For sure--pic is of a Daytona Hardtop, only available with a V8 BTW.

uplanderguy

Here's the $1,629 car, plus whitewalls:

http://www.autolit.com/Store/1964-studebaker-challenger-factory-photo.html

The Challenger was the only 1964 Studebaker that had a Lark emblem on it. The word "Lark" was not seen on any cars that year. The brochure referred to the two low-line series as "Lark Challenger" and "Lark Commander" to appease dealers who didn't want them to abandon the name.

My opinion only, but I think the white wheels made the cars look a slice less-dire than the typical habit then of having dog-dish caps with body-colored wheels.

fintail

White wheels definitely dress things up. Fancier wheelcovers can do a lot too - stylists knew what they were doing with whitewalls and fancy hubcaps.

MBs had the same thing. Basic fintails didn't have standard beauty rings or whitewalls, and the body color hubcaps could make things look plain:



Add beauty rings and whitewalls, and you get snazzy:

uplanderguy

I think we've discussed this, but for '63 only, Stude whitewalls went right up to the wheel like that fintail, although were fairly narrow. I like that look but don't think I've ever seen a real car with them as apparently nobody else reproduced those tires later.

uplanderguy

Trim rings always added a lot, I think. When I was a teenager, the standard Vega wheel with optional trim rings made a ton of difference. Similarly, I couldn't stand to see Chevy Rally Wheels on Novas, Chevelles, etc., without the trim rings (low-price package cars "Heavy Chevy" and "Rally Nova"). Wheels need a little bright bling!

fintail

Hubcaps and wheel trim are an interesting tangent. I remember my dad's 60 Ford Country Sedan had the odd combo of standard hubcaps and beauty rings (why not just get the deluxe caps?), like this:



The 66 Galaxie had the normal full wheelcovers like this:



While the sparsely optioned 68 Fairlane had basic hubcaps like this:



I've seen pics of the 70 Mustang he had when I was born, it had basic/dog dish caps, which I think my dad probably liked, to give it a tough look.

uplanderguy

RE.: Dog dish caps--just a hunch, but I think a lot more restored/show cars today have dog dish caps than ever left the factory with them, LOL. They're sort of a 'cool' thing now I think. When I see an R2 Studebaker Daytona with bucket seats and dog dish caps, I'm pretty-sure I'd win the wager about whether they came with them or not by looking at the production order, LOL.

Likewise, I swear I see more '58-62 Corvettes with them at shows than probably ever had them originally. Corvettes came with full wheelcovers standard unless you got the larger wheels and tires, which production numbers online always show how very rare they were. But I bet I see as many with hubcaps as with full wheelcovers at shows.