Postwar Studebakers

fintail

Yeah, I meant the emblem in general. The 390 wasn't really the performance engine in most applications, rather, just a powerful cruiser.

My first car, a 66 Galaxie, had a 390 - very cold blooded, and very thirsty - got 10-12 mpg no matter the speed.

isellhondas said:

Yep, I remember then well! In 1962, the 406's came out and they were no slouch but a healthy GTO would whip one or a 409 Chevy. 390's were good engines but very heavy and not much in the quarter mile! Anyone ever pull an intake manifold off one of those?

isellhondas

We once owned a Ford truck with an overhead camper. It too had a thirsty 390 with a 2BBL. If got 7 MPG no mater what. City driving, on the road driving, empty, loaded ready for camping, it didn't matter, 7 MPG.

It only had one 16 gallon tank too so when you got down to a half tank you gassed up. If it hit a quarter tank it was panic time. Good old workhorse though!

Mr_Shiftright

Yep. 390s were absolute gas hogs.

The Chevy 409 was a truck engine and I never did think it deserved any kind of reputation other than being a big block with a song written about it.

fintail

I don't recall the tank size on the Galaxie, but I seem to remember filling it up a lot. I think leaded gas was just being phased out here then, early 90s.

berri

Wasn't the 409 built off the old 348? If so, the beach Boys should have stuck to surfing

Mr_Shiftright

Yep. The 409 was both a bored AND stroked 348.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yep. 390s were absolute gas hogs.

The Chevy 409 was a truck engine and I never did think it deserved any kind of reputation other than being a big block with a song written about it.

Ah, having owned a 400 HP 409 with a 4 speed I have to tell you, it wasn't exactly a slouch. It had a DEEP power and sound that just hammered you back into the seats. I would take neighbors and such for a ride and I would start our slow. When road conditions allowed I would stand on it in first and slam it into second and look at their wide open eyes in the rear view mirror. Also I would see people at lights look over at the 409 emblem and it would gather a certain amount of respect. After all, it was a 409!

Having said that, had the Beach Boys not had the hit they had with "409" I have to wonder how fewer of them they would have sold?

A 413 Dodge would have cleaned it's clock and I was well aware of that!

fintail

OK uplander, tear it apart

https://www.streetsideclassics.com/vehicles/4250-cha/1964-studebaker-cruiser

ab348

I'll let Bill tear it apart, but I really like that Studie. I don't know how unusual it would be to find one equipped like that with 3 on the tree and overdrive, especially one loaded and posh like that one.

berri

In another forum someone recently talked about a poop brown colored vehicle. I'd say this one is more calf sh.. in hue But in general, I thought the 64 Studebaker was a decent looking car with a nice IP in it too.

Mr_Shiftright

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yep. 390s were absolute gas hogs.

The Chevy 409 was a truck engine and I never did think it deserved any kind of reputation other than being a big block with a song written about it.

Ah, having owned a 400 HP 409 with a 4 speed I have to tell you, it wasn't exactly a slouch. It had a DEEP power and sound that just hammered you back into the seats. I would take neighbors and such for a ride and I would start our slow. When road conditions allowed I would stand on it in first and slam it into second and look at their wide open eyes in the rear view mirror. Also I would see people at lights look over at the 409 emblem and it would gather a certain amount of respect. After all, it was a 409!

Having said that, had the Beach Boys not had the hit they had with "409" I have to wonder how fewer of them they would have sold?

A 413 Dodge would have cleaned it's clock and I was well aware of that!

The 409 wasn't that bad an engine--good on the low end, it just couldn't rev very well, and when the 396 came out, well that was the end of that. It wasn't a good breathing engine. It was built to haul rocks.

Mr_Shiftright

That Stude looks okay for what it is--some stuff in the engine bay is wrong and the paint looks rather amateurish, but the panel gaps are good. The AC is a plus in value. Price seems optimistic by a few thou.

uplanderguy

I won't be tearing that car apart, I like it! I'd definitely be proud to park it by any other domestic compact 1964 four-door sedan. That color is called 'Golden Sand' and is an original color (new for '64). I'd have to paint the steering wheel (the one in my old '63 looked like that one when I got it), and if I could, I'd put a factory Studebaker outside mirror on it.

In four-doors, I like the '63 Studebaker better (I really like the cut of the rear door), but the '64 was a really nice update in styling I think, done on the cheap. I love the '64 in a two-door hardtop. My '66 Cruiser is the same body style in general as the '64.

The fellow who until just recently has owned the largest Studebaker parts place, has a black '63 Cruiser with the optional red broadcloth interior, and a factory Skytop sunroof. It's not restored but a nice original, owned by the proverbial little old lady when he bought it.

Not a recent pic, but here are a couple factory photos of a '63 Cruiser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeWxqahIcAw

uplanderguy

Back to the feeling of being sucked back into a seat, as was discussed earlier here--a couple years ago I rode in the '64 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop R3 that was mentioned on the cover of "Hot Rod" in January '64 and reviewed inside.

https://mrandersonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/r3-hotrod-article-pg10001.jpg

It's not like the car...it's THE car!

335 hp conservatively rated; the owner is a retired Ford engineer. Everyone wants to ride in that car and a friend asked for me, LOL. The meet hotel was right next to an on-ramp and friends said they could hear me scream going up the ramp. I have never been in a car that sucked me into the seat like that one when he went through the gears.

Here's the car. The striping was apparently done for the magazine article (which was Jan. '64, a month after South Bend production ended) and adds nothing to the car I think. Those Halibrand wheels were offered by Studebaker but only through dealers' parts departments.

http://www.mcacn.com/512014.htm

fintail

Good to know the Cruiser doesn't have any weird emblem placement, wrong font on the dials, wrong year hubcaps, etc

uplanderguy

All that stuff on that car passes Uplander's standards, LOL. I do know the small stuff on the '63-66 cars, especially.

The A/C was added, as it's not on the original window sticker shown in the photos. Underhood, it has the correct yellow valve covers and oil filler caps on each valve cover, correct (you can pour in oil on either side).

uplanderguy

Someone sent me this pic today; I had never seen it before. It's my hometown Stude/MB dealer, apparently when he added Simca. My friend is in the center; he turned 89 a couple weeks ago. Despite what some sources say, Stude dealers still had M-B into '65 and this pic would seem to substantiate that as I don't think he got Simca 'til '64 or '65.

The mechanic on the far left is still with us also, and bought a new '64 Cruiser (same as the one fintail posted in the ad, earlier, above), but in black with red cloth buckets, supercharger, floorshift automatic (PRND21), and 'Certified' speedometer.

Speaking of the '64 Cruiser fintail posted earlier, I see in the ad that the car is sold.

fintail

A Simca in 1965 middle America, I bet that was a fun experience.

uplanderguy

Looking back, it's funny to me that you could buy a Simca and a Mercedes-Benz in our little town in the mid-sixties.

fintail

You had college professor and engineer types around to buy the MBs, right? I can see a few selling, they were mechanically robust (but not exactly rust-averse, however, what was then). Simca might have sold to someone who just wanted cheap and didn't want a VW. Where was the nearest MB or Simca dealer?

uplanderguy

There is a small Lutheran-affiliated college, Thiel, that has been in town for 150 years now. I'm guessing the nearest M-B dealer was probably in Youngstown, OH, 30 miles or so to the southwest. I have heard my friend say that they got M-B service work from Sharon, a larger city about 15 miles south. I am not aware of the Stude dealers in either Sharon or Meadville or Grove City (nearest three Stude dealers to our town) having M-B. Filer's was by far the oldest continuously-owned Stude dealer in the general area (founded 1926) so that may have helped them get the nod for M-B, if it wasn't just whomever was willing to pay for signage and tools!

He told me he was interested in Simca as it had an outstanding warranty at the time, particularly for an inexpensive car. I do remember my fifth-grade teacher having a red one.

A Studebaker friend of mine who saw the pic said, "I can't imagine a much-bigger risk than warrantying a Simca for five years or 50K miles!", LOL.

uplanderguy

We also did have a couple factories with offices who had engineers/draftsmen--Chicago Bridge and Iron Co. and Bessemer and Lake Erie railroad headquarters.

fintail

I suspect that might have been part of it, especially in an area like that - buy the signage and tools, get the franchise. No doubt half a dozen sales probably covered most of those costs. I suspect it was more competitive for MB especially in California and New England. I wonder if the Simcas had rust issues, and if many lasted over 10 or so years.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yep. 390s were absolute gas hogs.

The Chevy 409 was a truck engine and I never did think it deserved any kind of reputation other than being a big block with a song written about it.

Ah, having owned a 400 HP 409 with a 4 speed I have to tell you, it wasn't exactly a slouch. It had a DEEP power and sound that just hammered you back into the seats. I would take neighbors and such for a ride and I would start our slow. When road conditions allowed I would stand on it in first and slam it into second and look at their wide open eyes in the rear view mirror. Also I would see people at lights look over at the 409 emblem and it would gather a certain amount of respect. After all, it was a 409!

Having said that, had the Beach Boys not had the hit they had with "409" I have to wonder how fewer of them they would have sold?

A 413 Dodge would have cleaned it's clock and I was well aware of that!

The 409 wasn't that bad an engine--good on the low end, it just couldn't rev very well, and when the 396 came out, well that was the end of that. It wasn't a good breathing engine. It was built to haul rocks.

Yeah, the 409 had it's place but it had it's limitations too. A friend bought a used 1968 Camaro with the factory 396/360 HP. The guy selling it had earned something like eight tickets in less than a year and he got to the point that he was afraid to drive it after a couple of near accidents. It was SO incredibly FAST! i think it would have made my 409 look like a six cylinder. He wrecked it one night after losing it on a slippery freeway on ramp. It came close to being totaled but it was repaired and the shop did a good job. After that, he too was afraid of it and quickly passed it down the line. My, it was SO fast I was afraid to ride in it!

omarman

Back in HS a friend of mine bought a '68 Camaro 396/4-speed and it was a beast. Wheel hop worse than I had ever seen on any other car back then. After adding Lakewood traction bars he told me that they looked cool and yellow but "don't do a thing" to help cure the axle tramp. He sold it before graduation - and before any serious traffic court issues!

uplanderguy

RE.: Simca--not that I'd have noticed every one in town, but I can't recall any Simcas in particular in our town besides my teacher Mrs. Frew's. My friend did win a trip to Paris for selling Simcas, which is pretty mind-blowing to me. His wife told me that at the time she almost chose to not go as she was not a fan at all of deGaulle, but she went.

isellhondas

When I was very young a neighbor bought a new Borgward. Never saw another one! Did Pontiac stores sell these?

uplanderguy

Not sure. Our Pontiac dealer sold Subarus for maybe three years in the early '70's. I can remember being waaaay underwhelmed when I sat in one.

fintail

I suspect Borgward tried to sell wherever they could. Those are pretty obscure now, but they are out there, I suspect build quality was high. I know there's a green Isabella HT coupe in my area.

In the small town where my mom lives, the Caddy/Buick/GMC dealer also took on Honda. Fast forward to 2018, and guess which brand is the only one at the dealer now?

uplanderguy

Where I live, until 2009, there were five Chevy dealers in a radius of about 20-25 miles. Now there are two. One that lost his franchise sold the most new Chevys of any dealer in Summit County, which includes Akron, the year before. He was a Republican donor, which had some people raising their eyebrows. After about four months of losing customers and long-term employees, his franchise was reinstated. Go figure.

A longtime Chevy dealer in the town I live in now added Toyota in the late '60's and it's there but Chevy is gone, sigh. Toyota reps from Japan gave them their 50-year award of a Samurai sword not terribly long ago. His thirtysomething daughter runs the place now. Her TV commercials are painful--she sings in her little-girl voice, "Toyota in Kent, hey! DJ!".

TV commercials in our area say that Chevy is the best-selling brand in NE OH. I'd like to think that has something to do with Lordstown being in NE OH.

Cleveland's NBC affiliate is reporting that Republic Steel is reopening their Lorain facility and hiring 1,000+ workers. No bad in that, although I'm sure on Facebook I'll see some armchair experts expounding on that, LOL.

omarman

Maybe her TV jingle could tie in with the Samurai ceremony?

uplanderguy

I remember that SNL skit. Belushi was something else, for sure.

ab348

Last night I pulled a Hemmings Classic Cars magazine from April 2010 out of a stack and found an interesting article on what Studebaker was planning for '67 though '70 had they kept cars in production. I couldn't find that article online but it seemed to be based on this entry a year earlier at Dean's Garage:

http://www.deansgarage.com/2009/bob-marcks-designer-at-studebaker-ford-and-chrysler/

The 6-window sedan at the top might have done OK.

fintail

The Chevy dealer in the town where my mom lives has had Toyota for at least 40 years or so. Up until the early part of this decade, they shared the same building - I always thought something like that would be forbidden. Nowadays, the Chevy trucks and Toyotas do enough business individually that the brands have their own buildings on the opposite sides of the lot.

I suspect Honda does well in Indiana due to the factory there, too. Regarding the facebook comments, most people don't grasp economics, rather parroting what they were told by a TV presenter.

Mr_Shiftright

Cars like Borgwards were usually sold by large "import car dealers" in major metro areas. They would carry a wide variety of oddballs. There's a Morgan out front and a Singer roadster in the showroom.

berri

I remember back in the maybe late 50's that a gas station near us that sold a few used cars also dealt with new Simca's and another brand, I think maybe Hillman's. They'd generally have one of each on their lot, along with a variety of 6 or 7 used American cars. I believe it wasn't uncommon for lower priced imports that lacked a dealership connection to sell that way back then.

uplanderguy

ab348, thanks for posting that article. It had been awhile since I'd seen it. That fellow, Bob Marcks, did a nice job on the '66 Stude's interiors for what I'm sure what little budget he was given. Facebook reminded me this morning that it was one year ago today I posted a pic of mine there noting that I'd just bought it.

ab348

I think most small imports back then would get a garage/gas station with some space to take on their line. I remember even seeing pics of early VW dealers that were like that.

I don't recall what the reputation or image of Studebaker was in the mid-60s. I know we had a dealer here that continued after the brand departed as a M-B dealer and still exists in successor form today. But I don't recall any family or friends who owned Studebakers and it wasn't a brand that came up very much in discussions. I didn't get into reading car magazines until around '67 or '68 so there was no mention of them by then.

uplanderguy

I grew up in a Chevy family and I can tell you, their reputation around our town was that they were old-folk, fuddy-duddy cars. In salty areas like where we lived, for the last decade of production they had a habit of getting a vertical stripe of rust on the rear of the front fenders, just in front of the doors. Oddly, unlike other cars, they didn't tend to rust out around the lower rear quarters and wheel openings.

I remember quite a few in our small town, no doubt to our local dealer having been in business forty years. My Dad never, and I mean never, looked at them. I remember him once saying either "Stupidbaker" or "Steadybreakers". Actually, I think that mechanically they were pretty stout. I remember looking at an old Consumer Reports once at Hershey, I think early sixties, and according to their little charts, they were more reliable than some Big Three cars I can remember thinking at the time were much-more coveted.

I grew to like them because by the early '70's, I rarely saw them anymore. I didn't join the Studebaker Drivers' Club until 1986. When I went to my first international meet in South Bend in 1988 I was astounded. I couldn't believe so many people besides me liked them. Bob Merlis wrote a great, semi-comic article in "Car and Driver" in 1983 called "The Studey Zone". He wrote about driving his Lark convertible from CA to South Bend for the international meet that year.

The international meet in 2019 is in Mansfield, OH, about an hour from me. In fact, we had a club meeting yesterday about helping the "Heart of Ohio" region of the club put the meet on. They were asking us to each offer to work three hours during the meet, helping, and I did sign up. The international meet later this year, is in Tacoma, WA. Too far for me to go. I wonder what the vehicle turnout will be like there.

This was just "gravy" to me after I'd bought a Studebaker, but for the later cars especially, the NOS and reproduction parts situation is waaayyyy better than most folks would suspect.

They were headquartered in South Bend from 1852 through 1972.

omarman

uplanderguy said:

I grew up in a Chevy family and I can tell you, their reputation around our town was that they were old-folk, fuddy-duddy cars. In salty areas like where we lived, for the last decade of production they had a habit of getting a vertical stripe of rust on the rear of the front fenders, just in front of the doors. Oddly, unlike other cars, they didn't tend to rust out around the lower rear quarters and wheel openings.

I remember quite a few in our small town, no doubt to our local dealer having been in business forty years. My Dad never, and I mean never, looked at them. I remember him once saying either "Stupidbaker" or "Steadybreakers". Actually, I think that mechanically they were pretty stout. I remember looking at an old Consumer Reports once at Hershey, I think early sixties, and according to their little charts, they were more reliable than some Big Three cars I can remember thinking at the time were much-more coveted.

I grew to like them because by the early '70's, I rarely saw them anymore. I didn't join the Studebaker Drivers' Club until 1986. When I went to my first international meet in South Bend in 1988 I was astounded. I couldn't believe so many people besides me liked them. Bob Merlis wrote a great, semi-comic article in "Car and Driver" in 1983 called "The Studey Zone". He wrote about driving his Lark convertible from CA to South Bend for the international meet that year.

The international meet in 2019 is in Mansfield, OH, about an hour from me. In fact, we had a club meeting yesterday about helping the "Heart of Ohio" region of the club put the meet on. They were asking us to each offer to work three hours during the meet, helping, and I did sign up.

This was just "gravy" to me after I'd bought a Studebaker, but for the later cars especially, the NOS and reproduction parts situation is waaayyyy better than most folks would suspect.

They were headquartered in South Bend from 1852 through 1972.

I remember reading that C&D article about the trip to South Bend. Hilarious. It was a Lark convertible with 4 speed. And the writing style (Our Consultant was his co-driver on the trip) seemed to be an obvious nod to Fear And Loathing...Wonder what happened to that Wagonaire with the FUNROOF plates which disappeared over the horizon? Maybe it was just a "mirage?" Good stuff.

fintail

I hadn't heard about a Stude meet, I suspect I will be at home then, too:

http://www.sdcmeet.com/Home/Welcome

I might have to drive down and take a look.

uplanderguy

I can't believe someone else actually remembers that article! Loved how on the first page it had the "Twilight Zone" eyeball, and a floating road sign that said "Needles, AZ 24 South Bend 2205", LOL. Also remember laughing at his pic in front of one of the old factory buildings where it said "The author dressed to the nines (okay, sixes) in front of the old assembly plant".

isellhondas

So, yesterday I attended a local VW meet here in town. Pretty good turnout but I wasn't impressed. It seems the lowered to the ground VW's dominated along with busses that were for the most part nothing to look at. I think the latest thing is "Patina" and I don't get it. To me patina means a unmolested older car that could maybe stand a paint job but still looks good with the dents and scratches that come with normal usage over the years. Badly rusted cars that look like garbage (to me, anyway) just don't cut it.

There were some nice, original cars there but not too many.

The star of the show in my opinion was a freshly restored 1970 Karmann Ghia that was actually for sale. It was a knockout in every way possible and stock as can be. I called the seller and learned that it was a total nut and bolt restoration with no expense spared and I believe it. He wants 15,000 for it which according to the various guides is ALL the money and than some. Still...I'm thinking so someone please talk me down. I wish I had photos to show! It's dark blue and DROP DEAD beautiful in every way!

fintail

So that's why I saw so many Vanagons on the road when I went into the city yesterday.

Faux patina is a thing now, sand down the paint, add some chemicals, and you get the pretense of age.

ab348

I had that issue of C&D, now long gone (actually sold a collection of several hundred C&D and R&T from the '80s and '90s to someone from Edmunds 20 years ago). Surprised the article hasn't been scanned and put up on the web.

omarman

There's a link to a Studebaker article by Bob Merlis which includes background info about his Lark and also from that road trip to South Bend:

The late David E. Davis Jr., founder of this very publication, accepted my pitch to drive it to South Bend, Indiana, the place of its origin, and back. The top stayed down the whole way. The result was a spread in Car and Driver titled “The Studey Zone” and included a photo of a Nebraska state trooper ticketing me for doing 85 mph in a 60 zone, who noted: “I don’t believe I’ve seen a Stoodeybaker convertible before.” To which I responded, “Feast your eyes.” He had a credit card machine in the back of his cruiser, and $75 later I was on my way. Mr. Davis was resolute in not reimbursing me for the cost of my heartland transgression.

uplanderguy

Speaking of Karmann-Ghias--that is an old car that my wife is actually infatuated with. She reminds me that years ago I offered to buy her one for her fiftieth birthday, which has since come and gone, LOL. I'd probably actually have an easier time getting someone willing to take one of those in for service than a Studebaker, around here.

berri

I don't recall what the reputation or image of Studebaker was in the mid-60s.

In my area back then, by the early 60's Studebaker acquired the deadly "orphan" warning. Remember shortly before that Desoto and Edsel went bust. I think that really hurt not only Studebaker sales, but may have provided a headwind against Avanti and Hawk GT.

berri

Karmann Ghia's may have been essentially beetles underneath, but the styling was quite attractive for the time and I think still looks clean today.

uplanderguy

Hawk sales were 2 1/2 times in '62 what they were in '61, and Lark sales were up from 66K to 93K, but stupidly (IMHO), South Bend workers went on a 40-day strike which hurt momentum the '62 cars had going. After that, the bottom fell out.