I haven't posted regularly here since about October of 1999, but it is now time to say goodbye to my LS, so I thought I'd give a summary report.
I leased a V8 Sport with Audiophile, Sunroof, CD changer, in fact all options except the cell phone in January of 2000. I ordered the car in September 1999 (I think) and had to wait 4 months for delivery.
The car has been an absolute delight. I have had very few problems with it in 33,000 miles of mixed driving. Here is what I have noticed.
- The engine has been wonderful, with not a single hickup. It is flexible, powerful, and revs easily, never complaining about anything I ask of it. The only drawback to the engine is the transmission it is mated to.
- The tranny has been reliable, except for the select shift shift gate cover sticking on several occasions. A little force cleared that right up. Select shift upshifts quite quickly (yes, I had it flashed), but downshifts are agonizingly slow. It still irritates me that the car starts in second gear. That half-second period waiting for the kickdown just should not exist. If I want extra power, I want it now.
- The seats are the most comfortable I have ever had. I am about 6'2", and pushing 280 pounds, so having a comfortable and spacious area to sit is important to me. This car absolutely delivers. I have also received a lot of positive comments from rear seat riders, although I have never ridden back there myself (like I would actually let someone else drive my LS!).
- The interior held up well except for the transmission cover slider, which sticks, and the storage hatch on the center armrest, which broke easily. OK, my daughter stood on it to stick her head out of the sunroof when she was pretending to drive. And no, I won't ever let her out on a real road in consideration of all of you. The center cover, though, has a hinge that broke easily, which I would definately not expect.
- The interior storage really is problematic, but I learned to take less with me, and to drive with one hand holding a pair of large drinks as I drove home. I also purchased a double cup holder (at Pep Boys) that solved the too-small drink holder problem.
- The center console up near the dash is just a tad too wide, because of where the audio engineers placed the speakers. My calves hit both the door mounted speaker and the center console mounted speaker on every drive, which just got a tad tedious.
- Interior materials, though not as expensive looking as the Europeans, held up well. My only complaint here is the top of the door panels where you see the windows go into the doors. This is where my arm sat when I drove, and I didn't like the way it flexed.
- Kudos to the human interface engineer that designed the control layout and button placement. Everything falls into place easily and worked well.
- Also lacking is the trunk. I coach a baseball team, and after the duffel bag of gear was in, I literally had no more room for a cooler, etc. The large cooler I have wouldn't even go into the trunk, and if it had the trunk couldn't have closed because of the gooseneck hinges. Yes, I know they never wear out, but I would gladly pay 30.00 every three years for hydraulic struts.
The only repair work I had done was replacing a cracked exhaust manifold and the center storage cover (under warranty) and I replaced all four brakes and rotors at 30,000 miles (covered under and extended warranty I bought, and which I would not reccomend. It cost me an extra 500.00 over 2 years compared to what I would have spent on the repairs).
My biggest complaint about the car: the crappy tires. Those Firestones are the worst tires I have ever had on a car. I never replaced them, due to personal finance considerations, but I would have loved to. The 3rd day I had the car (indicating new tires), we had a snowstorm here in Denver. I got stuck trying to go up a hill with traction control retarding the engine and applying brakes and everthing generally working its hardest. I finally just turned off the traction control and spun my way up the hill, but I was the only person having problems. Since then, I just wait until the roads clear out when it snows before I go and try the roads. Apparently Lincoln has opted for other tires. I am glad, as my stock tires were terrible.
Performance was consistently excellent. No, I never had enough power to suit my driving style (I grew up with muscle cars), but this is an absolutely phenomenal road car. Plenty of power, rides like a dream, and great handling. I had never before driven a car which made me feel like a better driver, but this one did that for me. I spent 8 months commuting 58 miles each way across Denver, and without this car I would have gone insane.
So, overall, extremely reliable (as in not a single unplanned service interruption), fast, fun, smooth, and a trusted friend.
So, why am I not buying it, or getting another one? Well, I decided to get a 5 speed stick, and the Jag X-type suited my needs this time. I picked my Jag up Friday, and my Lincoln goes away this week.
I would have stayed with the Lincoln except for the dismal performance from the transmission at low speeds, and the poorly performing select shift. Other than that, I can't find an undesirable trait that would prevent me from taking the car. Even the storage problems aren't that big a deal.
So, Lincoln, if you are listening, here is my wish list:
1) Give me a manual transmission, preferably a 6 speed. Don't hobble the way I drive to try to meet fleet fuel economy requirements.
2) Fix the storage capacity so it is more livable inside.
3) Get rid of the goosenecks in the trunk.
4) Give me the same power as the Jag S-Type 4.0, or let SVT take a turn. I would pay more for a faster car. Perhaps a lot more.
5) Take a few ergonomics issues into account, such as small things like speaker placement. I know this is computer designed, but consider that many of the people that buy your cars are growing out instead of up, and realize that confort is a primary consideration.
6) Give me a compass. What's that cost, about 10 bucks? Sheesh.
7) If you really want to compete, add a couple of thousand dollars into the interior materials selection. That would go a long ways.
8) All wheel drive? Since driving my X-Type, I am a serious convert. I still love the way rear wheel drive cars handle, but having all four sing is a damn good thing.
So, sorry about the long winded nature of this, but it kind of a way to force myself to let go. I love my new Jag, but I will definately miss my LS.
I'll check this board for a while to see if there are any questions or comments. Otherwise, enjoy those cars.
Thanks for the post, your points are all well taken here. Sorry to hear your leaving the LS fold, but hope you'll be happier in the X-type. Had you contributed your insight/experience earlier and more regularly, you would have significantly added to the shared knowledge on this board. I enjoyed your post and agree about many (but not all, as I have no gripe about the SST) of the items you mention.
Again, best of luck with the X-type.
Chris - LLSOC Charter Member counting down the days til Mania 3!
I fully intended to keep up with the board. Unfortunately, I started abusiness in the worst economic downtourn the country has seen in a very long time. So, off to work ecame my slogan.
If I could find a way to keep both of the cars, I would. But that little Jag just rocks!
Just from curiosity, is there a web site for the LLSOC? I'll check the obvious, sounds like a good organization.
Most of the Edmund's review negatives are picked right out of Car and Driver's May? 2000 $40,000 sports sedan comparison. All the Edmund's editors can read apparently, but ought to form opinions from driving the car.
There is less cabin storage space/crappy cup holders in my 2001 Audi A6, but I have never seen this criticized in the car rags. Enough already. This car is aimed at enthusiasts and 50 something BMW buyers, not soccer moms.
The trunk hinges intrude in the trunk. I bought a Ford Ranger XLT for less than the cost difference to a BMW. I can haul gravel if I want to no problem.
The lease loyalty is $1,000. I can lease no down, no security deposit, 36mo/36,000 miles LS8 Sport or Premium loaded for $439/mo. Ask the boys on the B site what they can get for that.
that the B-boys appear to have a recall going on with the 5-series cooling fan, from the discussion on their board, along with a concern that due to the amount of electronics in the cars, the battery is draining in 7 days.
So I guess the LS isn't the only car that has problems. We're just more upfront at pointing them out instead of sweeping them under the rug.
re: tuckman:
Your appraisal of the LS was fair and unbiased. Too bad Edmunds didn't do as good as job as you did in their review. I hope you'll be as happy with the X-type as you were with LS. There are substantial changes coming with the 2003 model that will probably address several of your concerns.
Those of you who are planning on attending LS MANIA 3 may find out
Check the hinges on the 2001 Lexus GS ... same as the Lincoln LS. Has anyone read of a complaint about Lexus hinges intruding?
Last I heard, Ford benchmarks Lexus/Toyota as Best-In-Class (BIC) vehicles. It's logical to think that if BIC can get away with something, then Ford can also. This would be fine if the auto writers were logical, and buyers more aware.
While I would never consider a mags ratings influence my purchasing decision, Consumers Reports reinforces that point. For the heck of it,I logged on to verify the reliability of the LS. They only have the 2000 model year and it is listed as below par reliabiltiy and a not recommeded buy. But if you look at their little circle indicators, most of them are full red meaning highest reliablity. Surprisingly the tranny is a red circle and the lowest rating a white circle,which is average is for the electrical sysytem. You tell me!
Just turned in my 00 LS8 Sport, 24 mo lease, great car, no problems. Leased a 2002 Premium LS8 for 24 mo. Premium has standard features that are option on the sport. The only thing is the Alpine audio system is only a 4 speaker radio. The sound is a real let down from the big Alpine in the 2000 sport. Any one know how to improve the quality of this sound system?
Thanks for the your interesting take on your ownership experience with the LS. Funny, isn't it, that many LS owners seem to have more automotive insight and openmindedness (?) than the people who get paid to do this by Edmunds and others. Too bad you didn't choose to post more often
While you've left the LS fold, you're still sort of "in the family". Enjoy the Jag and keep us posted.
Artie Charter member of LLSOC & going for a repeat SPAMMY win-wishing everyone a happy, healthy & PEACEFUL new year.
chartrand highlights an interesting point that those who actually review data may have noted before. Consumers Report text often doesn't align with their little dots. In fact, their initial test reports often don't match very well with later data, either. That said, they still have a leg up on the Edmunds cretins.
What's a careful consumer to do??!!
Well, reading what real people say about the vehicles in these forums is a good start. Clearly, reading what the Edmunds testers have to say leaves a lot to be desired. But, at the end of the day (to spew an overused buzz-phrase), one is left with opinions from those whom one trusts and/or careful distillation of everything printed by those who may or may not know anything about the vehicle, long-term.
Having owned my LS for most of two years (the rear window and other nits have been repaired under warranty), my bitches are few: 1) the paint job sucks -- the loaner/rental I was issued while the warranty stuff was being handled (red Focus) had both a more attractive color and much better finish than the LS; 2) the interior isn't exactly upscale; 3) the music system would benefit greatly from high-frequency speakers much higher in the compartment (line-of-sight).
Oh well.
My options are to try to find a better vehicle for the money (not likely) or to fix what I don't like. For a few thousand bucks, I'm pretty sure I can get a mirror-smooth finish in any color I desire. For fewer, I can probably have the interior redone. And, for fewer yet, I can purchase aftermarket speakers and/or put tweeters on the pillars. I'm still $'s ahead, and already have an orphan vehicle that has next to zero value in the resale market, so what's to lose?
I'm still contemplating Mania 3. Could be fun. OTOH, I may be in Europe again flogging an (unreliable, long-term) Audi because renting an LS over there isn't possible.
I agree with everyone's opinion about the lack of objectivity and gross inaccuracies in Edmunds long term test of the LS. They deliberately lived with a transmission problem so serious no other owner I know of, local or on the boards, would stand for it, and would be camped out on the dealer's doorstep everyday until they fixed it. I know my tranny has none of the problems they describe, even before the reflash. There are the usual problems with gear spacing and starting in 2nd, something that could be easily fixed, say on an SVT LS, through changes in gear ratios, and while I wish the tranny was a little more sport oriented, it still works pretty well in aggressive driving.
Oddly enough, it was the Car and Driver comparo mentioned that sold me on the LS. I'd looked at a lot of things, Acura's, Lexus' (or is that Lexi?), VW Passat, Audi A6, BMW 5. The ironic thing is that the Audi dealer gave me the reprint that really steered me towards Lincoln! I looked it over carefully, I had originally been staying away from the A6/LS/BMW arena as I didn't want to pay that much for a car, but it turned out that the only things that were equal to or improvements on my 94 SHO were things like the LS, the BMW, the Audi.
Anyway, the LS had a midpack finish, and wasn't strongly recommended, kind of damned with faint praise. But, when I started looking at equipment level, and performance, the LS scored 8 out of 10 in all areas but one where it scored a 7 out of 10. Then I looked at price, number of dealers (I don't like getting stuck in the armpit of the nation with no dealer, one reason I didn't buy a Saab), there's a LM or Ford dealer on every corner it seems. Their measured and objective test data showed the LS to be a bargain, excellent performance and more affordable. The A6 didn't look so good then to me (though it's quite nice, especially with the quattro).
So, I drove the LS, liked what I saw, and managed to pick up a 2000 LS V8 Sport with moonroof, traction control, trunk mounted CD changer, and even had them change the Firestones out to Michelin Pilot XGT-Z's at 245/45ZR17 for$31.5K and a trade in of an old SHO with a long history of dropping transmissions. Let's just say the BMW or Audi dealers didn't even want take the car as a trade in. And the sales help at the Lincoln dealer was much more attentive, helpful, and willing to deal more, and the service dept at my dealer is excellent. I've had only a few problems (ball joint recall, engine cooling fan hydraulic pump go out 1 week after I bought it, radio replaced, tranny reflash).
I was out tooling around yesterday, in SST mode, flogging the car some, and I have never owned a better handling car. The LS comes close to a Porsche 944 I drove in terms of handling and roadholding, and much more neutral than the BMW 528i (understeer with a wicked tendency towards trailing throttle oversteer).
My 2 cents, but the LS is one of the most underrated bargains out there.
Brian is right about the problems BMW is having with the fires in the fan control unit on their 5 Series, 7 Series and X5. (The X5 incidently has been recalled NINE times already for Safety problems. I guess that is an example of the high BMW quality that Edmunds speaks of).
Here is a report filed with NHTSA on a BMW 525 owners experience AFTER the vehicle was already recalled and repaired with BMWs "fix".
ODI ID: 898621 Make: BMW Model: 525 Year: 2001
Incident: No Fire: Yes Number of Injuries: 0 Date of Failure: 09/01/2001 Component: ENGINE COOLING SYSTEM:FAN Summary: (BMW 525) ENGINE COMPARTMENT STARTED SMOKING. (BMW 525) CONSUMER PULLED INTO A PARKING LOT AND SHUT VEHICLE OFF. (BMW) SERVICE MANAGER HAD VEHICLE (BMW525) TOWED TO (BMW) DEALERSHIP. ELECTRICAL COMPONETS IN FAN WERE BURNED OUT. CONSUMER STATED THIS PROBLEM STARTED AFTER RECALL WAS PERFORMED. DEALER ADVISED CONSUMER TO ATTACHED RECALL INFORMATION.*AK
Building on what karzz stated, I did some looking at Alldata's site information. For comparsion sake I looked up the info. for the 2000 LS V-8 versus the BMW 540. Here's the numbers. Keep in mind that on TSBs there is quite a few that are informational and procedural related and not problem related.
LS V-8 1 Safety Recall 1 Emissions Recall 2 General Recalls 42 TSBs (last one dated Aug 01)
BMW540i 1 Safety Recall 4 General Recalls 128 TSBs (last one dated Mar 01)
Also an interesting snippet is that while you can purchase a subscription for Alldata that will give you the information for any Lincoln model, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through the ALLDATA DIY by request of each manufacturer.
Congrats on your new LS; it's always good to hear from a repeat buyer. That's an excellent affirmation of what a great car the LS is!
According to the LS brochure, the Lincoln website, and window stickers I've seen, the Premium package includes the Alpine Audiophile sound system. This consists of the 180-watt amp and 12 speakers. That 12 count is a bit misleading, because the door speakers in the Audiophile system are 2-ways, so Lincoln counts them as 8 speakers. There are two imaging speakers in the console--they're behind the grilles on the sides of the console near the front--and two subwoofers under the package shelf.
Check your trunk, and you should be able to see the sub hardware. As I understand it, the subwoofer configuration was changed for the '02 model year, so it my look different from your '00, but you should have the top-of-the-line system with the same power output and number of speakers as the Audiophile had in prior years.
I'm curious: Where did you get the info that your '02 Premium only has 4 speakers? I'm not aware of any changes in the audio configuration since the start of '02 production.
Some of us have posted previously about the exterior color changes that are taking place on the '02 LS. Here's what I found on the Kelley website:
Autumn Red Metallic will not be available between 12-19-01 and 03-11-02. A new color called Vivid Red will be available during a brief production run between 01-03-02 and 02-01-02. Vivid Red is an extra-cost color; MSRP is $295 and invoice is $257.
Midnight Grey Metallic went out of production on 12-19-01. Its replacement, Charcoal Grey Metallic, will be available after 01-17-02.
Silver Frost Metallic goes out of production on 01-18-02. Its replacement, Silver Birch Metallic, is available after 02-21-02.
Medium Cypress Green Metallic went out of production on 12-19-01. There is no replacement for this one. Aspen Green Metallic is new for '02, but I believe that it's a dark green that replaced last year's Charcoal Green Metallic.
Note that these are production dates; the old colors should still be available from dealer stock. Also, these dates are published by Kelley, NOT Lincoln, so check with your dealer for confirmation if you're interested in ordering one. There is currently no reference to the new colors on the Lincoln website.
I've never seen Vivid Red, so I don't know exactly what it is; I'm assuming it's a bright red, but that's strictly a guess on my part. If you want to see what a bright red LS looks like, go to the LLSOC website and click on the Gallery link, then on Brag Board, then on Scot Douglas. A co-worker of Scot's bought a T-Bird Super Coupe from an LS owner who liked his T-Bird's color so much that he had his dealer paint his new LS the same color. I think it looks pretty sharp!
More factual, real-world information about the LS, good and bad, in the last few posts than in any ten so-called expert reviews. One review I came across somewhere on the web last year, before I bought my LS, sticks in my mind. Can't recall the source but it was "Sport Sedans Under $50k", or something like that. The LS finished mid-pack as usual, but, when asked which car they would buy if it were their OWN money being spent, the testers were almost unanimous in choosing the LS. Bargain, indeed.
Thanks, tuckman, for sharing your experience, and good luck with the Jag. I'm a little surprised; smaller guys than you have complained that the X-Type isn't very roomy. Had anyone in the back seat directly behind you yet? Just kidding.
re Mania3: Since Artie is already primed for another award, how about Longest Distance Driven? Shoot, anyone can get on an airplane and sit down.:) Well, Ray will probably beat me out, anyway. Or Rene & Anna will drive Arizona to SoCal via Maine or something.:)
- R Model with 4.2L V8 400 hp and 408 lb-ft of torque - 6 Speed ZF Auto Transmission -Chassis modifications include a new front suspension that uses aluminum components - a modified rear suspension -a body that has been made 10 percent stiffer.
- an electronic parking brake. The brake is automatically applied when the ignition is switched off. It is released when the shift lever is moved out Park -adjustable pedals
The BMW cooling-system problem that karzz and Brian referred to is a big one. It affected more than 75,000 '01 model BMWs, including the 3, 5, and 7 series cars, the X5 sport-ute, and even the fabulous Z8 supercar. (The Z8 is high on my list of if-I-married-a-rich-woman wedding presents to myself. )
Symptoms include the aforementioned bursting into flames, as well as puking all the coolant and melting the engine. If I spent 150 large on a Z8 and watched it immolate itself, I would not be a happy camper.
The point is that, in the real world, even the most highly-regarded car companies are capable of significant failures. Blaming a supplier is a nice dodge, but the manufacturer is responsible for the products it sells. I find it interesting to browse the NHTSA site and see how many recalls BMW has actually had, and also find it interesting that they don't seem to get much press attention because of it.
After 16 months and 19k miles, my '01 LS V8 Sport has had exactly zero problems. (The ball-joint recall was performed on a routine service visit, and mine was in spec; no action required.) There are certainly some things about the car that I'd like to see improved, but reliability is something about which I have no complaints. Knock wood.
1. The club can get a group rate at the Embassy Suites of $99/night. I have tentatively locked 20 rooms down at this rate but haven't signed the contract yet since the club will get charged 80% of the non-booked rooms reserved if we don't use all the rooms. The regular rate on the Internet looks like $114/night is the cheapest. I can book the rooms if I'm pretty sure that we'll fill them.
Please send me an email to brian.gowing@llsoc.com to indicate if you are planning on attending and if you will want to stay at the Embassy Suites. This is non-binding, just basically a show of hands so I know whether to go ahead with contracting a group rate and for how many rooms.
2. I'm guessing since I started the Spammies with Mania 1 this means it's a tradition? Well, I suppose that gives me a couple of months to get creative with them! So no one who was at Mania 1 and received one felt bad about it? Good! We can continue them if the members want it!
Well, as a final parting shot, I just took my new Jag for its first real romp in the mountains. About a 3 hour total drive, very windy roads from dry to some ice and gravel on the road from the last snow storm last week.
The Jag is very, very fast. I got the 321 HP V6 with a 5 speed stick (the primary reason I left the LS), and it just flat rocks. Steering and turn in are light and very precise, and there is no appreciable body roll even in very hard, fast corners. The seats are OK (no where near as good as an LS, but still comfortable after a long drive), and not a single hickup. In fact, it stuck to the road so well it was almost scary.
However, I still think I like the LS better. The Jag is growing on me, but the LS ride was outstanding day to day, and the Jag is a tad harsh (break in may help). While the Jag is more powerful on the low end, it has no power in 5th gear and you have to stay revved up to really feel the effects. The LS has ample torque (a larger displacement really helps a lot!) at any point you need it, alhtough the Jag keeps pulling strongly at higher RPM when the LS ran out of steam.
The LS doesn't handle as crisply, but it would give up very little ground to the much smaller Jag in the twisties. I think the biggest difference was the body roll inherent in the LS, which, while minimal, is a bunch more than the Jag (The Jag just sat flat. I didn't even get tossed around in the seat much. Just amazing!)
So, the Jag seems more sports car, the LS more of a grand tourer. My wife isn't agreeing yet, but I am trying to find a way to keep both.
One word of caution about the X-type's handling. The one thing to watch out for is if you go into a turn too hot and you start to get understeer, don't rapidly back out of the throttle and get on the brakes. The X-type has a tendency to snap back pretty harshly compared to the LS which will just hunker down and regain it's composure.
Not dissing the X-type just wanted to make you aware of a slightly different handling characteristic compared to your old LS.
We must remember that FoMoCo uses T.S.B.'s differently than any other manufacture, sometimes they are just time savings for the mechanic. I really don't know that we should back down this alley, either.
We all have our LSes, and enjoy them (tuckman included), so we've learned an important lesson. There is NO such thing as unbiased reporting with cars. Quick, what's the consensus of the best color?
There is no reason to drag B.M.W.'s dirty laundry into the fray here. Their value is perceived anyway, so no relevance is needed. Quality, I'm afraid to say, has become a buzz word lately. The more you pay, the more you get, right folks?
Their dismassal of the marque, and our desire the level the playing field just work. Remember, B.M.W. re-entered the market with aplomb with the 1600 series, with the comparable snob appeal of the Volvo of its era. It took off with sales, but Volvo somehow missed the mark and marketplace.
I would say the B.M.W. pulled-off the quinessential marketing coup. Good valued cars with great handling against the likes of V.W, Renault, and Fiat. Their savvy and gumption won them a spot!
Their spot is now being undermined by many fronts. They too, are resting on their alleged laurels. Competition has grown much stronger for them too.
There is now a flood of contenders, the LS is included here. If the development continues at it's present rate, it will surpass the B's that we have now. An example would be, what have they done to their "7" series?
Every manufacture receives their "come-up pence", because they become complacent and lazy within their defined market place. Neither B.M.W. nor Mercedes' are above the ritualistic laws of automobile manufacture and will have to pay to the powers that be.
I hate to be telling you this Virginia, but there ain't no perfect car! There are draw backs no matter which way you go. For me, I'm totally satisfied with my LS.
Hey, Ray, put on the 18 inchers and don't worry about the snow! If I can drive from Seattle to Oklahoma City in a 1978 Plymouth Sapporo without even knowing what snow tires are (Southern California boy and all), you can come out here on your "good" treads! Just head south until Texas and then head west! Oh yea. Leave a couple days early :~)
Another TOTALLY satisfied LS owner. Mike LLSOC Charter Member
Best color? That's easy: Dark Satin Green. It's dust-attracting properties keep the AC filter clean longer.
Anybody else go right to the Jaguar X-type specifications after reading about Brent's 321 hp V6? We've already got a little HP envy around here, pal, you gotta watch those typos!:)
I forgot to mention in my previous post that I drove that in January. For those that are too young, the '78 Sapporo was a 4 banger, RWD made by Mitsubishi, sold by Chrysler. The Dodge counterpart was the Challenger (NO relation to the real Challenger's!).
No speakers located on the rear shelf or any grilles in console, like in my 00 sport. Makes for more room in the truck. The only grills would be on the lower front part of each door. Sound from rear speakers real dull, to hear from front seat. Info, about four speakers from ether Kelly Blue Book pricing or Edmunds, listed under standard equipment for the LS Premium. Again a real bummer to be called a audio system.
My LS-8 non-sport has 30K miles on it and the engine seems a bit sluggish. I have not recieved a check engine light. Has anyone had their V-8 tuned - up? I looked thru the manual but could not find any reference to engine maintenance except replacing the spark plugs at 100K miles.
I think Lincoln is being optomistic that the plugs will last 100K miles. Is there anything else that needs to be changed or adjusted?
On my prior Lincoln changing the plugs every 15K miles instead of the recommended 30K miles , provided a improvement in engine performance ie. response and power.
There are actually two separate speakers in each door with the 2002 Alpine Audiophile system setup. The speaker assembly is of the plate type, consisting of a separate tweeter, a midrange speaker and a crossover circuit in a sealed enclosure. I will ask Brian to post some pictures I took, in the Stereo modification section on the LLSOC Message Board.
Tom Re: Audiophile speakers. Oops! Thanks for correcting me on the door speakers. Now that you mention it, I think someone tried to straighten me out on this once before; maybe it'll sink in this time.
Wonpder: Several LS owners have swapped their factory door speakers for Polk DX7s and seem to be quite pleased with them. If you go to the LLSOC website (www.llsoc.com) and check the message boards, you'll find owner feedback on stereo upgrades. Also, if you click on the FAQ link and then the "speaker replacement" link, you'll find an excellent and comprehensive set of instructions, complete with photos, courtesy of Stan. He gives you all the tricks. One note: The grilles on the rear deck were deleted after the 2000 model year; even on Audiophile-equipped cars, the rear deck doesn't have speaker grilles on '01 and '02 cars.
Here's an open question: Can anyone explain why wonpder's '02 Premium doesn't have the Audiophile stereo? The Lincoln literature (including the product info sheet) says that the 12-speaker Audiophile (with the big amp) is included with the Premium package. I've also seen several Premium cars on dealer lots that had it. Was it deleted in a running change? If so, was it another weight problem? This is confusing...
Not much to tune up. My 30k service included fuel filter replacement, my air filter was good till 35k. Neither improved the performance or fuel economy noticeably, but they're sure worth looking at. Dirty fuel injectors, maybe???
We've discussed spark plugs over at LLSOC. Many of us question not the 100k mile life of the plugs, but the difficulty of removing them after that length of service. Our prez changed his at 35k, IIRC, and they came out so hard he swears he'll never wait that long again. OTOH, our club's resident Master Mechanic sees no problem with leaving plugs in for 100k, and he's no doubt changed a few. My dealer says 50k. Whatever, at 30k your spark plugs shouldn't be causing any running problems. We've heard of a few defective coil packs, but they usually cause pretty severe problems, dead misses, stalling, etc.
Your car is still under warranty, and dealers have some pretty powerful diagnostic tools.
Good luck, & please let us know how this works out.
I had 60,000 mile Platinum plugs on my Toyota. They never lasted over 30k. The problem wasn't electrode wear but some kind of weird brown staining between the boot and the metal part of the spark plug which I attributed to some kind of electrical breakdown of the insulator or actual gas leak. Anyway, a new set of plugs cured the problem, and I used regular plugs (NGK) and changed them regularly. Of course, I hope that my Duratech's plugs last at least the 3 year lease as one must remove the intake manifold to replace the plugs on one side. At least here in So Cal, our extreme driving styles combined with our wierd "gasoline" with strange additives is really hard on plugs. Let's hope that the factory used that "silver paste" anti-sieze compound on the plug threads so they can be removed without having to heli-coil the plug holes.
If the Audiophile system has gone to "plate" speakers in the same "5x7" inch cutout, the bass frequencies will definitely suffer and one will really need some kind of woofer augmentation. At least the Polks have a "full-size" woofer cone. If any of you still have the stock 5x7 Philco "whizzer cone" speakers in your 4 doors, you won't believe the difference the Polk DX-7's will make. Well worth the investment. You are going from essentially a one way speaker with no tweeter to a 3 way with lots of punch. Also, the stock Philcos are buried in a plastic "capsule" that limits the stock cone excursion and adds an extra "grille" as well. To your radio, this is like breathing through a straw. The Polks are like 100% oxygen through a ventilator.
Had some fun with my 2000 LS-V8 Sport the other day. Noticed in my rearview mirror a late model BMW 5-series crowding a car in the left hand lane on a multilane highway. You could definitely tell this guy was driving with an attitude. I was making preparations to exit onto another highway when I was surprised to see this guy behind me. Not just behind me, but this guy was seemingly kissing my bumper. Mind you I'm running 75mph. I made the assumption the this guy must have been driving a 540. So I'm thinking what the hell, I've read (and experienced) where the LS-V8 shines at its ability to accelerate hard at highway speeds. Yeah. It kick down a gear (or two?) at WOT. The acceleration was explosive. Within a couple of seconds I was 10-12 car lengths ahead of this guy. I coasted back down to 75mph. This guy closed in pretty quickly, but instead of crawling up my rear and like he did before, he gave me about a car length. After I made the interchange, he gracefully passed me on the left. Turned out to be a 530. I think the LS took the wind out of his sail. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up at a Lincoln dealer in the near future.
My 2002 LS8 Sport picked up the Audiophile system over the Alpine in my 2001 LS8 Sport, and is a major improvement. But you are correct, the philco wizzers are still pretty bad. The Bose system (an upgrade for about $750 in I recall) in my spouse's 2001 A6 puts the audiophile system in the boom box category. I rarely drive the A6, but when I do and and take some of my Cds with me, its hard to believe the difference. The really odd thing is most folks seem to have no complaints about the audiophile system, whereas the hardcore Audi guys rip out the Bose systems to "upgrade". Go figure.
Sounds like a lesson in humble pie for the 530 owner. ;-) You're right, acceleration at highway speeds is a maniac, stomp the loud pedal at 75 and you're at 120 before you know it, the car excells at high speeds.
It's amazing how many BMW drivers I encounter who are complete aggressive morons on the road, swapping across 3 lanes of traffic at almost tripple digit speeds. These people do not like it if they are outrun by an LS either. I blasted the doors off a CLK Mercedes with 3 people and luggage in the car, the idiot then started playing autocross at 130 mph through a pack of traffic to try and catch me, at which point I just slowed down and let the idiot speed off into the distance. Insane, I'll do the high speed runs when the road allows, I won't when there's traffic. He still couldn't match top end or acceleration. On another occasion, a 5 series BMW (not sure of engine, couldn't see the back designation) come right up on my behind like he was trying to mate with my car in a cloverleaf I was already whipping around, so I sped up. The LS kept this wonderfully neutral handling until I was really into the throttle, then transitioned into a perfectly balanced 4 wheel drift. He was falling behind, got into the throttle, then apparently decided to back off, and that wonderful BMW trailing throttle oversteer hit. He barely kept from slamming the back drivers side off the concrete barrier, and when I last saw him, he was in the grass.
What ever happened to the good ol'days, when people with fast cars would run a bit, and then when they had to slow down or go different ways give a wave and a toot of the horn to the other driver, kind of saying " hey, nice run, take care." It seems like today the people who run don't know how to drive, and are insane, they seem to view it as a challenge to either beat you or try and run you over, tense, aggressive, road rage. And mostly in the "status marques" it seems.
Does anyone know if the wheels used on the Bullit Mustang and that are optional on the GT are compatible with the LS? I saw them today on a Bullit, and thought they'd look good on my estate green LS. I seem to recall that the Bullit uses the same size tire I'm running, 245/45ZR-17's, but I'm not sure of offset or bolt patern.
I know this subject was addressed some time ago, but age has clouded the answers. I just got my LS back after very major surgery.....nearly all of the drivers side was replaced after a T-bone incident in September. The drivers side seat belt will not readily retract. So, I either have to sit there and feed it back in (at least partially) or risk closing the door on it (Again!). What's the experience with the later model LS's..same problem, or is it fixed?
swauger: The Bullit wheels won't fit. The LS uses a 60mm offset with a 5x108mm bolt pattern. Between both of these it's hard to find wheels that fit the bill.
chops00: Sounds like the body shop needs to make an adjustment. They should have replaced the entire seat belt assembly after a crash anyway which I'm assuming they did. They may have a twisted seat belt in the B-pillar which may be causing the problem also.
Thanks for the info Brian, you da'Man as far as LS info goes. Too bad though, those retro wheels with the grey painted spokes would look really good on an LS (not that the stock wheels look bad, they're quite attractive). Ah well...
On another issue that might amuse you, I got back from a road trip/long weekend last year (gadzooks, I'm still not used to the new year), and realized that I couldn't find my LLSOC charter member cap. I searched everywhere, I thought, and was fortunate enough to find it this past weekend when I was vacuuming the car, way up in no man's land under the passenger seat. Whew!
It's raining cats and dogs (I know, I just stepped in a poodle badabing badaboom!) here in FL now, better than snow, but the traction control sure comes in useful in this weather.
The February 2002 Car & Driver has a manual transmission test among (in order of finish): 1. BMW 330i 2 Audi A4 3.0 Quattro 3. Lexus IS300 4. Cadillac CTS 5. Jaguar X type 6. Saab 9-3 Viggen 7. Lincoln LS V6-M
The #1 complaint on the LS is the lack of power, it is apparantly a 2001, 210 HP model, but don't blame C&D, they call up the manufacturer & say send one over, so blame Lincoln for not sending over a 2002 with 220 HP. Also has the 3.07 rear end with 0-60 @ 7.9 seconds (vs. the 7.2 - 7.4 sec that the early V6 3.31 rear end LS's tested at), slowest in the group. The Michelin MXM4's give the LS the best skidpad # at .84G, but strangely they compare other car's skidpad #'s to the BMW not the highest # the LS gave. Sounds to me like they don't want to admit that the LS was best at anything.
C&D raves about the LS's handling & transmission but then turn around and give the LS 8's for both. The LS also has the worst "fit & finish" at a 7. They also complained about the brakes giving the LS again the lowest rank at a 7. The LS also has the worst gas mileage on their 1300 mile trip @ 20 mpg (BMW & Saab both get 25 mpg). On the subjective end the LS is again on the bottom with 7's for "value", "styling" and "fun to drive".
Don't shoot me, I'm only the messanger, but the LS is being compared to 5 other cars that are significantly smaller in size (the CTS is smaller than the LS but bigger than the other 5). C&D is once again selecting cars on price, not the amount of car for the $ which makes me think that they have missed the boat on the "Value" ranking, that is given it's size you get a lot of car for the $$.
Comments
I haven't posted regularly here since about October of 1999, but it is now time to say goodbye to my LS, so I thought I'd give a summary report.
I leased a V8 Sport with Audiophile, Sunroof, CD changer, in fact all options except the cell phone in January of 2000. I ordered the car in September 1999 (I think) and had to wait 4 months for delivery.
The car has been an absolute delight. I have had very few problems with it in 33,000 miles of mixed driving. Here is what I have noticed.
- The engine has been wonderful, with not a single hickup. It is flexible, powerful, and revs easily, never complaining about anything I ask of it. The only drawback to the engine is the transmission it is mated to.
- The tranny has been reliable, except for the select shift shift gate cover sticking on several occasions. A little force cleared that right up. Select shift upshifts quite quickly (yes, I had it flashed), but downshifts are agonizingly slow. It still irritates me that the car starts in second gear. That half-second period waiting for the kickdown just should not exist. If I want extra power, I want it now.
- The seats are the most comfortable I have ever had. I am about 6'2", and pushing 280 pounds, so having a comfortable and spacious area to sit is important to me. This car absolutely delivers. I have also received a lot of positive comments from rear seat riders, although I have never ridden back there myself (like I would actually let someone else drive my LS!).
- The interior held up well except for the transmission cover slider, which sticks, and the storage hatch on the center armrest, which broke easily. OK, my daughter stood on it to stick her head out of the sunroof when she was pretending to drive. And no, I won't ever let her out on a real road in consideration of all of you. The center cover, though, has a hinge that broke easily, which I would definately not expect.
- The interior storage really is problematic, but I learned to take less with me, and to drive with one hand holding a pair of large drinks as I drove home. I also purchased a double cup holder (at Pep Boys) that solved the too-small drink holder problem.
- The center console up near the dash is just a tad too wide, because of where the audio engineers placed the speakers. My calves hit both the door mounted speaker and the center console mounted speaker on every drive, which just got a tad tedious.
- Interior materials, though not as expensive looking as the Europeans, held up well. My only complaint here is the top of the door panels where you see the windows go into the doors. This is where my arm sat when I drove, and I didn't like the way it flexed.
- Kudos to the human interface engineer that designed the control layout and button placement. Everything falls into place easily and worked well.
- Also lacking is the trunk. I coach a baseball team, and after the duffel bag of gear was in, I literally had no more room for a cooler, etc. The large cooler I have wouldn't even go into the trunk, and if it had the trunk couldn't have closed because of the gooseneck hinges. Yes, I know they never wear out, but I would gladly pay 30.00 every three years for hydraulic struts.
The only repair work I had done was replacing a cracked exhaust manifold and the center storage cover (under warranty) and I replaced all four brakes and rotors at 30,000 miles (covered under and extended warranty I bought, and which I would not reccomend. It cost me an extra 500.00 over 2 years compared to what I would have spent on the repairs).
My biggest complaint about the car: the crappy tires. Those Firestones are the worst tires I have ever had on a car. I never replaced them, due to personal finance considerations, but I would have loved to. The 3rd day I had the car (indicating new tires), we had a snowstorm here in Denver. I got stuck trying to go up a hill with traction control retarding the engine and applying brakes and everthing generally working its hardest. I finally just turned off the traction control and spun my way up the hill, but I was the only person having problems. Since then, I just wait until the roads clear out when it snows before I go and try the roads. Apparently Lincoln has opted for other tires. I am glad, as my stock tires were terrible.
Performance was consistently excellent. No, I never had enough power to suit my driving style (I grew up with muscle cars), but this is an absolutely phenomenal road car. Plenty of power, rides like a dream, and great handling. I had never before driven a car which made me feel like a better driver, but this one did that for me. I spent 8 months commuting 58 miles each way across Denver, and without this car I would have gone insane.
So, overall, extremely reliable (as in not a single unplanned service interruption), fast, fun, smooth, and a trusted friend.
So, why am I not buying it, or getting another one? Well, I decided to get a 5 speed stick, and the Jag X-type suited my needs this time. I picked my Jag up Friday, and my Lincoln goes away this week.
I would have stayed with the Lincoln except for the dismal performance from the transmission at low speeds, and the poorly performing select shift. Other than that, I can't find an undesirable trait that would prevent me from taking the car. Even the storage problems aren't that big a deal.
So, Lincoln, if you are listening, here is my wish list:
1) Give me a manual transmission, preferably a 6 speed. Don't hobble the way I drive to try to meet fleet fuel economy requirements.
2) Fix the storage capacity so it is more livable inside.
3) Get rid of the goosenecks in the trunk.
4) Give me the same power as the Jag S-Type 4.0, or let SVT take a turn. I would pay more for a faster car. Perhaps a lot more.
5) Take a few ergonomics issues into account, such as small things like speaker placement. I know this is computer designed, but consider that many of the people that buy your cars are growing out instead of up, and realize that confort is a primary consideration.
6) Give me a compass. What's that cost, about 10 bucks? Sheesh.
7) If you really want to compete, add a couple of thousand dollars into the interior materials selection. That would go a long ways.
8) All wheel drive? Since driving my X-Type, I am a serious convert. I still love the way rear wheel drive cars handle, but having all four sing is a damn good thing.
So, sorry about the long winded nature of this, but it kind of a way to force myself to let go. I love my new Jag, but I will definately miss my LS.
I'll check this board for a while to see if there are any questions or comments. Otherwise, enjoy those cars.
Brent
Thanks for the post, your points are all well taken here. Sorry to hear your leaving the LS fold, but hope you'll be happier in the X-type. Had you contributed your insight/experience earlier and more regularly, you would have significantly added to the shared knowledge on this board. I enjoyed your post and agree about many (but not all, as I have no gripe about the SST) of the items you mention.
Again, best of luck with the X-type.
Chris - LLSOC Charter Member
counting down the days til Mania 3!
I fully intended to keep up with the board. Unfortunately, I started abusiness in the worst economic downtourn the country has seen in a very long time. So, off to work ecame my slogan.
If I could find a way to keep both of the cars, I would. But that little Jag just rocks!
Just from curiosity, is there a web site for the LLSOC? I'll check the obvious, sounds like a good organization.
Brent
www.llsoc.com has made a world of difference in my ownership experience! Lots of friendly people interested in sharing information about the car.
Best of luck with the new biz and the baby jag in 2002 and beyond. Who knows . . . maybe future LS models will have you coming back for more!
http://www.jag-lovers.org/
http://www.jagtalk.com
http://www.jaguar-racing.com/
There is less cabin storage space/crappy cup holders in my 2001 Audi A6, but I have never seen this criticized in the car rags. Enough already. This car is aimed at enthusiasts and 50 something BMW buyers, not soccer moms.
The trunk hinges intrude in the trunk. I bought a Ford Ranger XLT for less than the cost difference to a BMW. I can haul gravel if I want to no problem.
The lease loyalty is $1,000. I can lease no down, no security deposit, 36mo/36,000 miles LS8 Sport or Premium loaded for $439/mo. Ask the boys on the B site what they can get for that.
So I guess the LS isn't the only car that has problems. We're just more upfront at pointing them out instead of sweeping them under the rug.
re: tuckman:
Your appraisal of the LS was fair and unbiased. Too bad Edmunds didn't do as good as job as you did in their review. I hope you'll be as happy with the X-type as you were with LS. There are substantial changes coming with the 2003 model that will probably address several of your concerns.
Those of you who are planning on attending LS MANIA 3 may find out
Brian
LLSOC Prez
Last I heard, Ford benchmarks Lexus/Toyota as Best-In-Class (BIC) vehicles. It's logical to think that if BIC can get away with something, then Ford can also. This would be fine if the auto writers were logical, and buyers more aware.
Brent
You tell me!
While you've left the LS fold, you're still sort of "in the family". Enjoy the Jag and keep us posted.
Artie
Charter member of LLSOC & going for a repeat SPAMMY win-wishing everyone a happy, healthy & PEACEFUL new year.
What's a careful consumer to do??!!
Well, reading what real people say about the vehicles in these forums is a good start. Clearly, reading what the Edmunds testers have to say leaves a lot to be desired. But, at the end of the day (to spew an overused buzz-phrase), one is left with opinions from those whom one trusts and/or careful distillation of everything printed by those who may or may not know anything about the vehicle, long-term.
Having owned my LS for most of two years (the rear window and other nits have been repaired under warranty), my bitches are few: 1) the paint job sucks -- the loaner/rental I was issued while the warranty stuff was being handled (red Focus) had both a more attractive color and much better finish than the LS; 2) the interior isn't exactly upscale; 3) the music system would benefit greatly from high-frequency speakers much higher in the compartment (line-of-sight).
Oh well.
My options are to try to find a better vehicle for the money (not likely) or to fix what I don't like. For a few thousand bucks, I'm pretty sure I can get a mirror-smooth finish in any color I desire. For fewer, I can probably have the interior redone. And, for fewer yet, I can purchase aftermarket speakers and/or put tweeters on the pillars. I'm still $'s ahead, and already have an orphan vehicle that has next to zero value in the resale market, so what's to lose?
I'm still contemplating Mania 3. Could be fun. OTOH, I may be in Europe again flogging an (unreliable, long-term) Audi because renting an LS over there isn't possible.
Happy New Year to all!
Steve
(also a charter LLSOC member, FWIW)
Oddly enough, it was the Car and Driver comparo mentioned that sold me on the LS. I'd looked at a lot of things, Acura's, Lexus' (or is that Lexi?), VW Passat, Audi A6, BMW 5. The ironic thing is that the Audi dealer gave me the reprint that really steered me towards Lincoln! I looked it over carefully, I had originally been staying away from the A6/LS/BMW arena as I didn't want to pay that much for a car, but it turned out that the only things that were equal to or improvements on my 94 SHO were things like the LS, the BMW, the Audi.
Anyway, the LS had a midpack finish, and wasn't strongly recommended, kind of damned with faint praise. But, when I started looking at equipment level, and performance, the LS scored 8 out of 10 in all areas but one where it scored a 7 out of 10. Then I looked at price, number of dealers (I don't like getting stuck in the armpit of the nation with no dealer, one reason I didn't buy a Saab), there's a LM or Ford dealer on every corner it seems. Their measured and objective test data showed the LS to be a bargain, excellent performance and more affordable. The A6 didn't look so good then to me (though it's quite nice, especially with the quattro).
So, I drove the LS, liked what I saw, and managed to pick up a 2000 LS V8 Sport with moonroof, traction control, trunk mounted CD changer, and even had them change the Firestones out to Michelin Pilot XGT-Z's at 245/45ZR17 for$31.5K and a trade in of an old SHO with a long history of dropping transmissions. Let's just say the BMW or Audi dealers didn't even want take the car as a trade in. And the sales help at the Lincoln dealer was much more attentive, helpful, and willing to deal more, and the service dept at my dealer is excellent. I've had only a few problems (ball joint recall, engine cooling fan hydraulic pump go out 1 week after I bought it, radio replaced, tranny reflash).
I was out tooling around yesterday, in SST mode, flogging the car some, and I have never owned a better handling car. The LS comes close to a Porsche 944 I drove in terms of handling and roadholding, and much more neutral than the BMW 528i (understeer with a wicked tendency towards trailing throttle oversteer).
My 2 cents, but the LS is one of the most underrated bargains out there.
In a recent post Mark K. said that this was corrected in September.
Here is a report filed with NHTSA on a BMW 525 owners experience AFTER the vehicle was already recalled and repaired with BMWs "fix".
ODI ID: 898621
Make: BMW
Model: 525
Year: 2001
Incident: No
Fire: Yes
Number of Injuries: 0
Date of Failure: 09/01/2001
Component: ENGINE COOLING SYSTEM:FAN
Summary: (BMW 525) ENGINE COMPARTMENT STARTED SMOKING. (BMW 525) CONSUMER PULLED INTO A PARKING LOT AND SHUT VEHICLE OFF. (BMW) SERVICE MANAGER HAD VEHICLE (BMW525) TOWED TO (BMW) DEALERSHIP. ELECTRICAL COMPONETS IN FAN WERE BURNED OUT. CONSUMER STATED THIS PROBLEM STARTED AFTER RECALL WAS PERFORMED. DEALER ADVISED CONSUMER TO ATTACHED RECALL INFORMATION.*AK
LS V-8
1 Safety Recall
1 Emissions Recall
2 General Recalls
42 TSBs (last one dated Aug 01)
BMW540i
1 Safety Recall
4 General Recalls
128 TSBs (last one dated Mar 01)
Also an interesting snippet is that while you can purchase a subscription for Alldata that will give you the information for any Lincoln model, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through the ALLDATA DIY by request of each manufacturer.
According to the LS brochure, the Lincoln website, and window stickers I've seen, the Premium package includes the Alpine Audiophile sound system. This consists of the 180-watt amp and 12 speakers. That 12 count is a bit misleading, because the door speakers in the Audiophile system are 2-ways, so Lincoln counts them as 8 speakers. There are two imaging speakers in the console--they're behind the grilles on the sides of the console near the front--and two subwoofers under the package shelf.
Check your trunk, and you should be able to see the sub hardware. As I understand it, the subwoofer configuration was changed for the '02 model year, so it my look different from your '00, but you should have the top-of-the-line system with the same power output and number of speakers as the Audiophile had in prior years.
I'm curious: Where did you get the info that your '02 Premium only has 4 speakers? I'm not aware of any changes in the audio configuration since the start of '02 production.
Autumn Red Metallic will not be available between 12-19-01 and 03-11-02. A new color called Vivid Red will be available during a brief production run between 01-03-02 and 02-01-02. Vivid Red is an extra-cost color; MSRP is $295 and invoice is $257.
Midnight Grey Metallic went out of production on 12-19-01. Its replacement, Charcoal Grey Metallic, will be available after 01-17-02.
Silver Frost Metallic goes out of production on 01-18-02. Its replacement, Silver Birch Metallic, is available after 02-21-02.
Medium Cypress Green Metallic went out of production on 12-19-01. There is no replacement for this one. Aspen Green Metallic is new for '02, but I believe that it's a dark green that replaced last year's Charcoal Green Metallic.
Note that these are production dates; the old colors should still be available from dealer stock. Also, these dates are published by Kelley, NOT Lincoln, so check with your dealer for confirmation if you're interested in ordering one. There is currently no reference to the new colors on the Lincoln website.
I've never seen Vivid Red, so I don't know exactly what it is; I'm assuming it's a bright red, but that's strictly a guess on my part. If you want to see what a bright red LS looks like, go to the LLSOC website and click on the Gallery link, then on Brag Board, then on Scot Douglas. A co-worker of Scot's bought a T-Bird Super Coupe from an LS owner who liked his T-Bird's color so much that he had his dealer paint his new LS the same color. I think it looks pretty sharp!
Cheers,
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
Thanks, tuckman, for sharing your experience, and good luck with the Jag. I'm a little surprised; smaller guys than you have complained that the X-Type isn't very roomy. Had anyone in the back seat directly behind you yet?
re Mania3: Since Artie is already primed for another award, how about Longest Distance Driven? Shoot, anyone can get on an airplane and sit down.:) Well, Ray will probably beat me out, anyway. Or Rene & Anna will drive Arizona to SoCal via Maine or something.:)
Happy New Year, everybody.
Scott
LLSOC Member
Some of the changes:
- R Model with 4.2L V8 400 hp and 408 lb-ft of torque
- 6 Speed ZF Auto Transmission
-Chassis modifications include a new front suspension that uses aluminum components
- a modified rear suspension
-a body that has been made 10 percent stiffer.
- an electronic parking brake. The brake is automatically applied when the ignition is switched off. It is released when the shift lever is moved out Park
-adjustable pedals
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4500&sid=183&n=157
Symptoms include the aforementioned bursting into flames, as well as puking all the coolant and melting the engine. If I spent 150 large on a Z8 and watched it immolate itself, I would not be a happy camper.
The point is that, in the real world, even the most highly-regarded car companies are capable of significant failures. Blaming a supplier is a nice dodge, but the manufacturer is responsible for the products it sells. I find it interesting to browse the NHTSA site and see how many recalls BMW has actually had, and also find it interesting that they don't seem to get much press attention because of it.
After 16 months and 19k miles, my '01 LS V8 Sport has had exactly zero problems. (The ball-joint recall was performed on a routine service visit, and mine was in spec; no action required.) There are certainly some things about the car that I'd like to see improved, but reliability is something about which I have no complaints. Knock wood.
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
1. The club can get a group rate at the Embassy Suites of $99/night. I have tentatively locked 20 rooms down at this rate but haven't signed the contract yet since the club will get charged 80% of the non-booked rooms reserved if we don't use all the rooms. The regular rate on the Internet looks like $114/night is the cheapest. I can book the rooms if I'm pretty sure that we'll fill them.
Please send me an email to brian.gowing@llsoc.com to indicate if you are planning on attending and if you will want to stay at the Embassy Suites. This is non-binding, just basically a show of hands so I know whether to go ahead with contracting a group rate and for how many rooms.
2. I'm guessing since I started the Spammies with Mania 1 this means it's a tradition? Well, I suppose that gives me a couple of months to get creative with them! So no one who was at Mania 1 and received one felt bad about it? Good! We can continue them if the members want it!
Thanks,
Brian
The Jag is very, very fast. I got the 321 HP V6 with a 5 speed stick (the primary reason I left the LS), and it just flat rocks. Steering and turn in are light and very precise, and there is no appreciable body roll even in very hard, fast corners. The seats are OK (no where near as good as an LS, but still comfortable after a long drive), and not a single hickup. In fact, it stuck to the road so well it was almost scary.
However, I still think I like the LS better. The Jag is growing on me, but the LS ride was outstanding day to day, and the Jag is a tad harsh (break in may help). While the Jag is more powerful on the low end, it has no power in 5th gear and you have to stay revved up to really feel the effects. The LS has ample torque (a larger displacement really helps a lot!) at any point you need it, alhtough the Jag keeps pulling strongly at higher RPM when the LS ran out of steam.
The LS doesn't handle as crisply, but it would give up very little ground to the much smaller Jag in the twisties. I think the biggest difference was the body roll inherent in the LS, which, while minimal, is a bunch more than the Jag (The Jag just sat flat. I didn't even get tossed around in the seat much. Just amazing!)
So, the Jag seems more sports car, the LS more of a grand tourer. My wife isn't agreeing yet, but I am trying to find a way to keep both.
Brent
I have had the Jag full of adults, and as soon as the steering wheel impression pops out of my chest, I will try it again.
Actually, not bad room wise. Kind of like a large closet with 3 of your very close friends.
Happy new year all.
Brent
One word of caution about the X-type's handling. The one thing to watch out for is if you go into a turn too hot and you start to get understeer, don't rapidly back out of the throttle and get on the brakes. The X-type has a tendency to snap back pretty harshly compared to the LS which will just hunker down and regain it's composure.
Not dissing the X-type just wanted to make you aware of a slightly different handling characteristic compared to your old LS.
Brian
We all have our LSes, and enjoy them (tuckman included), so we've learned an important lesson. There is NO such thing as unbiased reporting with cars. Quick, what's the consensus of the best color?
There is no reason to drag B.M.W.'s dirty laundry into the fray here. Their value is perceived anyway, so no relevance is needed. Quality, I'm afraid to say, has become a buzz word lately. The more you pay, the more you get, right folks?
Their dismassal of the marque, and our desire the level the playing field just work. Remember, B.M.W. re-entered the market with aplomb with the 1600 series, with the comparable snob appeal of the Volvo of its era. It took off with sales, but Volvo somehow missed the mark and marketplace.
I would say the B.M.W. pulled-off the quinessential marketing coup. Good valued cars with great handling against the likes of V.W, Renault, and Fiat. Their savvy and gumption won them a spot!
Their spot is now being undermined by many fronts. They too, are resting on their alleged laurels. Competition has grown much stronger for them too.
There is now a flood of contenders, the LS is included here. If the development continues at it's present rate, it will surpass the B's that we have now. An example would be, what have they done to their "7" series?
Every manufacture receives their "come-up pence", because they become complacent and lazy within their defined market place. Neither B.M.W. nor Mercedes' are above the ritualistic laws of automobile manufacture and will have to pay to the powers that be.
I hate to be telling you this Virginia, but there ain't no perfect car! There are draw backs no matter which way you go. For me, I'm totally satisfied with my LS.
Ray
Charter Member of LLSOC
Another TOTALLY satisfied LS owner.
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
Anybody else go right to the Jaguar X-type specifications after reading about Brent's 321 hp V6? We've already got a little HP envy around here, pal, you gotta watch those typos!:)
A Totally happy owner, but not a driver tonight!
Sheepishly,
Brent
Please send me your new email addresses. Your old ones that I have on file don't appear to be correct anymore.
Thanks,
Brian Gowing
I think Lincoln is being optomistic that the plugs will last 100K miles. Is there anything else that needs to be changed or adjusted?
On my prior Lincoln changing the plugs every 15K miles instead of the recommended 30K miles , provided a improvement in engine performance ie. response and power.
Tom
LLSOC Charter Member
Wonpder: Several LS owners have swapped their factory door speakers for Polk DX7s and seem to be quite pleased with them. If you go to the LLSOC website (www.llsoc.com) and check the message boards, you'll find owner feedback on stereo upgrades. Also, if you click on the FAQ link and then the "speaker replacement" link, you'll find an excellent and comprehensive set of instructions, complete with photos, courtesy of Stan. He gives you all the tricks. One note: The grilles on the rear deck were deleted after the 2000 model year; even on Audiophile-equipped cars, the rear deck doesn't have speaker grilles on '01 and '02 cars.
Here's an open question: Can anyone explain why wonpder's '02 Premium doesn't have the Audiophile stereo? The Lincoln literature (including the product info sheet) says that the 12-speaker Audiophile (with the big amp) is included with the Premium package. I've also seen several Premium cars on dealer lots that had it. Was it deleted in a running change? If so, was it another weight problem? This is confusing...
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
We've discussed spark plugs over at LLSOC. Many of us question not the 100k mile life of the plugs, but the difficulty of removing them after that length of service. Our prez changed his at 35k, IIRC, and they came out so hard he swears he'll never wait that long again. OTOH, our club's resident Master Mechanic sees no problem with leaving plugs in for 100k, and he's no doubt changed a few. My dealer says 50k. Whatever, at 30k your spark plugs shouldn't be causing any running problems. We've heard of a few defective coil packs, but they usually cause pretty severe problems, dead misses, stalling, etc.
Your car is still under warranty, and dealers have some pretty powerful diagnostic tools.
Good luck, & please let us know how this works out.
Scott
LLSOC Member
http://www.auto.com/industry/lights27_20011227.htm
Jim
LLSOC member
It's amazing how many BMW drivers I encounter who are complete aggressive morons on the road, swapping across 3 lanes of traffic at almost tripple digit speeds. These people do not like it if they are outrun by an LS either. I blasted the doors off a CLK Mercedes with 3 people and luggage in the car, the idiot then started playing autocross at 130 mph through a pack of traffic to try and catch me, at which point I just slowed down and let the idiot speed off into the distance. Insane, I'll do the high speed runs when the road allows, I won't when there's traffic. He still couldn't match top end or acceleration. On another occasion, a 5 series BMW (not sure of engine, couldn't see the back designation) come right up on my behind like he was trying to mate with my car in a cloverleaf I was already whipping around, so I sped up. The LS kept this wonderfully neutral handling until I was really into the throttle, then transitioned into a perfectly balanced 4 wheel drift. He was falling behind, got into the throttle, then apparently decided to back off, and that wonderful BMW trailing throttle oversteer hit. He barely kept from slamming the back drivers side off the concrete barrier, and when I last saw him, he was in the grass.
What ever happened to the good ol'days, when people with fast cars would run a bit, and then when they had to slow down or go different ways give a wave and a toot of the horn to the other driver, kind of saying " hey, nice run, take care." It seems like today the people who run don't know how to drive, and are insane, they seem to view it as a challenge to either beat you or try and run you over, tense, aggressive, road rage. And mostly in the "status marques" it seems.
js
LLSOC Charter Member
js
LLSOC Charter Member
chops00: Sounds like the body shop needs to make an adjustment. They should have replaced the entire seat belt assembly after a crash anyway which I'm assuming they did. They may have a twisted seat belt in the B-pillar which may be causing the problem also.
Brian
LLSOC Prez
On another issue that might amuse you, I got back from a road trip/long weekend last year (gadzooks, I'm still not used to the new year), and realized that I couldn't find my LLSOC charter member cap. I searched everywhere, I thought, and was fortunate enough to find it this past weekend when I was vacuuming the car, way up in no man's land under the passenger seat. Whew!
It's raining cats and dogs (I know, I just stepped in a poodle badabing badaboom!) here in FL now, better than snow, but the traction control sure comes in useful in this weather.
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
1. BMW 330i
2 Audi A4 3.0 Quattro
3. Lexus IS300
4. Cadillac CTS
5. Jaguar X type
6. Saab 9-3 Viggen
7. Lincoln LS V6-M
The #1 complaint on the LS is the lack of power, it is apparantly a 2001, 210 HP model, but don't blame C&D, they call up the manufacturer & say send one over, so blame Lincoln for not sending over a 2002 with 220 HP. Also has the 3.07 rear end with 0-60 @ 7.9 seconds (vs. the 7.2 - 7.4 sec that the early V6 3.31 rear end LS's tested at), slowest in the group. The Michelin MXM4's give the LS the best skidpad # at .84G, but strangely they compare other car's skidpad #'s to the BMW not the highest # the LS gave. Sounds to me like they don't want to admit that the LS was best at anything.
C&D raves about the LS's handling & transmission but then turn around and give the LS 8's for both. The LS also has the worst "fit & finish" at a 7. They also complained about the brakes giving the LS again the lowest rank at a 7. The LS also has the worst gas mileage on their 1300 mile trip @ 20 mpg (BMW & Saab both get 25 mpg). On the subjective end the LS is again on the bottom with 7's for "value", "styling" and "fun to drive".
Don't shoot me, I'm only the messanger, but the LS is being compared to 5 other cars that are significantly smaller in size (the CTS is smaller than the LS but bigger than the other 5). C&D is once again selecting cars on price, not the amount of car for the $ which makes me think that they have missed the boat on the "Value" ranking, that is given it's size you get a lot of car for the $$.