This Roseville dealer (Andrews) is a chump dealership as soon as they found out I had a trade-in they did not want to even continue to talk with me. Everything they said to you is bull, all sports being loaded and reduced difference btw msrp and invoice. I suggest you find a dealer that wants to sell cars and not one that is looking to rob you thinking you do not know the difference btw msrp and the invoice prices. They think they are still trying to sell to the typical LM 60+ crowd thinking they are not savy informed buyers.
This subject came up a while ago on LLSOC. I'll repeat the salient points here.
The ACC does not function the same way as a conventional HVAC system. In order to maintain the driver-selected temp., warm and cool air are blended together. In order to do this, the AC compressor must obviously be engaged and will cycle on and off as long as the ambient temp is at or around freezing. This is the nature of an ACC system and is not the arbitrary decision of Lincoln engineers. That's the whole point of ACC. You do not need to keep fiddling with the controls to stay comfortable. The system does that for you by mixing heated and cooled air together. Even in a conventional (American) system, when you engage the defroster, the AC compressor will engage, even in the dead of winter. Dehumidified air is supplied for window defogging purposes. I'm not sure how it works now, but I remember when many Japanese cars needed to have the A/C manually engaged with outside air setting in order to properly defog the windows in winter. I was in a carpool some years back and argued with one of the drivers season after season when he complained that he could not clear the windows even with defroster on high. He was running the system on recirculate with the compressor off. Some habits die hard. Same guy refused to turn the A/C on in summer until we were "on the highway." He was worried about overheating. No amount of explaining that the car had an electric cooling fan that would run under these conditions and was actually more efficient than an engine-driven fan could convince him. Of course, he never questioned why my car was fine with A/C running in the worst city traffic on the hottest July day.
I'm surprised they didn't want to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. I have a 2002 V8 Sport, the moonroof and Alpine Premium Audiophile System was included at no additional charge. You should not be paying more than a couple of hundred over invoice. There have been some posts were individuals have paid less then invoice. When I purchased my 2000 LS I used Lincoln's website and used there Build Your Lincoln process, then requested a quote from dealers in my area. I received 4 quotes and I end up paying $600.00 over invoice.
Thanks, Smwls8. I was sure that Caddy was going to use the same Getrag 221 as in the LS Manual. It's real news to me that the CTS has a 3:73 rear with a .82 overdrive. Now I wonder if GM still has Manual transmission engineers around OR Tremec supplied the tranny OR Getrag developed their first overdrive five-speed OR Caddy is using an Opel-derived tranny. Of course, IF the LS had an overdrive Manual tranny, it could also have a deeper rear ratio (3:58) and the LS could be more competitive in MPG, cruise rpm and 0-60. So now the Manual LS has got real competition from Caddy and both cars will feel the heat from the coming Infinity G35 in April and it's rumored 6 speed version later in the year (after the 350 Z intro, which features the same tranny). My, my, aren't we having a real circus! Stanny1, who's gonna keep his seat belt fastened for this one. (And hoping Lincoln is thinkin', and they know that sister company Mazda has an overdrive RX-7 five-speed that has already been prototyped with the Duratech. And if the CTS has an LSD differential as well, you are just twisting the knife and it really hurts)
I believe that the term you were looking for was; that the coil induces the high energy charge, not transforms. DC voltage cannot be transformed up that high.
As I remeber, the collapse of the main circuit excites the secondary circuit, creating the spark at the coil. I believe the separate coils act the same; By giving the main winding a voltage and breaking it, it then induces the spark voltage.
I think that the only difference is that now the coil over system requires very small voltage (3.3 v.) to preform the duties, rather that the 8 volts required before.
The coil pack is widely used on the 4.6L V-8. It has four connectors on it, one for four of the plugs. The pack fires twice per pack, thereby firing once when a cylinder is at it's compression cycle while the other is at it's exhaust cycle. I know that the 4.6 used two coil packs, both driven by the cams of the cylinder heads.
But, the basic fundamental is the same, it is the induction of electrical energy that makes the spark, not the transformation of the energy. Oh, to meet Charles Kettering and discuss what's become of his electrical systems in cars!
Have not seen the R&T article but at last night's opening of the L.A. Auto Show, R&T was given a presentation on CTS at the Cadillac exhibition space, I am always worried when magazine editorial is that close to the manufacturer. I opted to hear about the new Aston Martin V12 Vanquish, auto shows for me are about DREAM CARS.
More interesting though, in the Cadillac provided 2003 CTS Competitive Comparison the cars listed are the following: · BMW ’02 3 Series 330i Sedan · BMW ’02 5 Series 530i Sedan · Lexus ’02 ES 300 Sedan · MBZ ’02 C-Class C320 Sedan All the cars had a higher base price than the CTS ($29,990 est.)
So it seems that Cadillac is more interested in comparing itself to foreign autos than the U.S. Final note: The Lincoln booth looked awesome, alot of the same visual cues of the new dealers showroom!
According to the R&T article, the CTS transmission is a Getrag; doesn't give the model number, though. The CTS ratios with the 3.73 rear gear are: 1st 3.56:1/13.28:1; 2nd 2.04:1/7.61:1; 3rd 1.34:1/5.00:1; 4th 1.00:1/3.73:1; and 5th 0.82:1/3.08:1, and RPM is 2400 at 60 MPH in top gear. There's no mention of limited-slip; all CTSs come with traction control, with StabiliTrak included in the Sport package. The traction control/Stabilitrak cutoff switch is, oddly, in the glove box.
Packv12 Re: Coil. Thanks for the correction/clarification. Like I said, I'm not an EE, so I don't know from transformers & inductors. Heck, I can barely stand to change my own circuit breakers. I was hoping my answer would prompt someone who knows what they're talking about to give the REAL answer & that's what you did; thanks!
Actually, I was responding to a post earlier than yours; you just got in between. No big deal, just keeping the air clear.:)
I keep driving past the Cadillac dealer on my way home from work to see if they've got a CTS yet. Curious to see if the styling is any less, uh, "polarizing" in person. I've always thought the LS looks much, much better in real life than in photos. I had never seen one on the road when I drove onto the Lincoln dealer's lot. Good thing the salesman wasn't around to see my initial reaction. I'd have ended up paying over sticker for it.:)
Yup, you get what you pay for. But you can't BUY the wisdom & brilliant insight we get for free here in Town Hall.:)
Apparently knowledgeable speculation over on the Jag S-type board suggests the new Jaguar will have around 400 hp and sell for around $59k. So, using current S-type vs. LS prices and hp as a guide, we could imagine a 360 hp Lincoln for around $45k.
The Headquarters hotel will be the Doubletree Hotel, 90 Pacifica Drive, Irvine Spectrum, Irvine, CA . You must call in and say you are asking for the Lincoln LS Owners Club event rate to get our rate of $99 for first night, then $89/night for the other nights. Tel: 1-949-471-8888 Fax: 1-949-471-8996. Reservations MUST be made no later than January 24th if you want to be guaranteed of this rate otherwise any unused rooms will be released and you'll have to pay going room rates, which I believe are around $138/night. We currently have 20 rooms blocked. If we need more it won't be any problem to increase the room block. But please make your reservations early to guarantee your room.
They are three blocks away from Lincoln HQ and provide free shuttle bus transportation to and from John Wayne Airport as well as the Irvine Spectrum.
The registration form for MANIA 3 will be posted at the LLSOC website later today, both in the bulletin board under the LS MANIA 3 forum as well as the MANIA 3 link on the main page.
This time we are accepting checks as well as credit cards to make it easier for everyone. There is a 5 percent processing charge for credit cards. This event, as all our MANIA events are, is only open to LLSOC members so if you want to go you have to be a member.
If you have any questions, please email them to me at: brian.gowing@llsoc.com
If this new CTS tranny is indeed a Getrag, it would probably have Getrag's generic bellhousing bolt-up pattern. In other words, it would be a cinch for Lincoln to replace the non-overdrive LS tranny for this one and solve a load of problems. Instant 0-60 improvement, as this new Getrag would enable the 3:58 gear set to be used immediately. Better NVH levels, lower cruise rpm and CAFE numbers. It's a no brainer. I pray Scooter and the boys are way ahead of me on this one. There is no time to waste. My lease is up in July 03, and I'm hoping for all this plus VVT. If the LS Manual does not evolve, it's going to look like last years corn flakes, especially if the CTS really comes in at 30k. By next year, the G35 six-speed with 260 hp could be a real BMW killer IF it comes in at less than 35k. I can't wait for my R&T !
The other day my early '01 LS8 made a very nasty noise when I tried to start it. Sounded like the starter was turning but not the engine. The temperature was around 32F. I tried a couple of times but the noise was so bad I called the 800 number. Lucky for me the tow truck driver experienced the same noise since when it got to the dealer, the problem was gone!
Does anyone know the cause of this problem? My dealers usually very good but this one currently has them baffled.
There is an electromagnetic device sometimes called a "starter bendix" that engages a gear between the starter gear and the ring gear/flywheel to turn over the engine. When you turn the key to the "start" position, you not only energize the ignition and starter motor circuits but this electro-magnetically activated intermediate gear as well. When you release the "start" position on the key switch, the "bendix" retracts the gear. I think that the cold may have affected the extension of the gear and the starter motor did a "free spin". It may have been a freak occurence or the indication of a weak cell in the battery or an actual starter or electrical problem. A partial engagement of the gear can tear up a ring gear or flywheel gear pretty fast. In many cases, a "chipped" or missing tooth can prevent the car from starting or cause intermittent cranking to occur. The only solution is removal of the tranny and ring gear/flywheel replacement. Let us know the actual cause if it gets worse.
<<<Went to my dealer in Roseville, CA today and they are trying to tell me that all new LS's with Sports Pkg come fully equipped (except cell phone)and that unless I want to specially order one, I'll have to buy one with things I don't need- namely the chrome wheels and the all seasons package. This sends the price of the car up substantially. I asked him to check other dealers and he called back and said everyone has the cars fully loaded. He also said that Lincoln has reduced the markup between invoice and MSPR so that dealer will not sell the car for less than 6% over invoice.>>>>>
I'd try another dealer. All season pkg is still an option and it does seem to find it's way on most cars but the heated seats are now at no charge. Ditto for the Alpine stereo when car includes Sport Pkg. I just purchased a 2002 LS Sport without the pimpmobile chrome wheels for almost $5,000 below sticker. That put it just short of $1500 below invoice. The purchase was made in November. Sticker was $41,700. Paid $36,900.
Koberon: I had the same problem about a year ago, the starter was definately free spinning & the engine was not turning over. It was flat bedded to the closest dealer, who didn't look at it until the next day and of course, the starter worked fine the next day. Fortunately for me they replaced the starter and I have not had the problem repeat with the new starter.
<<rgnmstr: Would you care to share with us less gifted negotiators how you bought an LS, at the start of the model year, for $1,500 UNDER invoice? Must have been a special X plan or something similar. If not, are you available to negotiate my next purchase ;-)>>
Don't know what an X plan is. I started out shopping for a 01 because of the 5 year financing. Pricing was not much better than 02s. I figured why buy a 01 if I can buy an 02 at the same price. Quotes were averaging around $2K-2.5K off sticker for either one. I'm on the road with my job therefore I was able to stop at a number of dealers to look and talk price. Some acted like they were selling some hard to get item and others wanted to sell a car. I wound up buying from Dulaney LM in Maryland. They wanted to sell a car. Salesman said they had "money" from Lincoln to move some 2002s. I don't know if that was a line or not but as I stated they sold me the car just short of $1500 below invoice which was almost $5K off sticker. The great part was I never even had to go thru the salesmanager bullcrap of "we can't sell a car for that" and argue for an hour. The salesman went back to the salesmanager to get approval. Like I said I bought the car w/$41.7K sticker for $36.9K and other dealers would only do $38 something and they didn't have the communication package. Now my car did come with the communication package and I did hear a conversation at another dealer that Lincoln sold some cars to dealers with that as a no charge item to get salesman to try it out although I don't know how they would do that since it must be activated thru Sprint by the owner. It was not shown as a no charge item on my sticker or invoice therefore I can't confirm the story. I didn't want the feature but my wife has totally fallen in love with it because of her job. I bought a set of Firestone Firehawks from Tire Rack . com also. Friends don't believe that one but you know all about it.
Well, I followed some advice here and asked for quotes online- one through AutoByTel and two others from the Lincoln website from Lincoln dealers. That was over 24 hours ago. So far no one has called me. I don't know about others, but if I owned a business and someone sent my company an e-mail saying they wanted a quote, I'd make sure someone got back to that customer within a couple of hours. I am getting the feeling Lincoln dealers really don't care about selling cars in the Sacramento area for less than sticker price, if at all.
Since my MY02 LS8 Sport listed at $41,425 with the all season package, moonroof, no charge audiophile, adding the $1,275 comm package gets us to the $41,700. (I hope these number are right, I'm doing this off the top of my head :-}). I tossed out a lot of the internet pricing material that I had when doing my deal, but I do know that the comm package was an early no charge for fleet/rental, but was not supposed to be retailed with the no charge code. Further, the moonroof has been at various times a no charge item in the North East. So bottom line, my guess is you got a good deal, but not because you bought under invoice - the MSRP the dealer worked with was overstated. Even the biggest dealers are working off 4.5% combination MSRP holdback and certified dealer rebate over dead cost. No dealer can sell your $41,700 MSRP cars for $36,700 if he is paying for all the equipment and plans to stay in business. Congratulations! You got a really good deal!
By the way, in changing the equipment packages on this car for MY02, Lincoln Ddid increase the invoice price more than the MSRP by around $300. So the Roseville dealer wasn't totally wrong. Again, I remember that from playing with the numbers early in the MY switchover.
For those interested, I talked to my leasing agent at my Lincoln dealer in Denver today. I am turning in my 2000 LS next week (lease is over), and he called to see if I wanted another one.
I have already picked up another car (a mistake, I now realize), but he said the incentives that will be introduced for all Lincoln vehicles will be amazing. He said I could get the same options on a 2002 sport for about 30.00 less than I have been paying for my 2000. Higher residuals, cheap money factor, etc. He doesn't have all of the details, but I am going to talk to him Wednesday, so if I can get specifics I'll post them here.
By the way, I found out the hard way how much content the LS actually has compared to European vehicles. I thought I wouldn't miss some of these things, but if I could get out of my current lease and go back to an LS, I would.
but it takes a big man to make an admission like that, Brent. Sorry to hear it, but you may yet find unexpected virtues in your new ride. And when your current lease is up, the LS will still be around, better than ever.
For those interested, I talked to my leasing agent at my Lincoln dealer in Denver today. I am turning in my 2000 LS next week (lease is over), and he called to see if I wanted another one.
I have already picked up another car (a mistake, I now realize), but he said the incentives that will be introduced for all Lincoln vehicles will be amazing. He said I could get the same options on a 2002 sport for about 30.00 less than I have been paying for my 2000. Higher residuals, cheap money factor, etc. He doesn't have all of the details, but I am going to talk to him Wednesday, so if I can get specifics I'll post them here.
By the way, I found out the hard way how much content the LS actually has compared to European vehicles. I thought I wouldn't miss some of these things, but if I could get out of my current lease and go back to an LS, I would.
Brent, are you pretty confident that your dealer has good info? It would certainly behoove me to wait a few weeks before getting another lease if there is any truth to this. All they are offering now is $1000 cash back on a new lease, which amounts to $27 a month on a 3 year lease.
My dealer told me this AFTER I told him I had picked up a new JAg. He had no sale at that point and new it. I told him I would be looking to replace my wifes Expedition early summer, and he filled me in. He said they were getting the info on Tuesday, so if you can wait a few days, it might be worth checking.
How's this for insult. My car knows what is going on. I am supposed to turn it in Wednesday, so I was going out to take it for a spin tonight, and exactly the same thing happened to me as it did to koberon. It didn't start and made a loud noise.
I had this happen once 2 winters ago. Seems to occur around 28 degrees for me (like tonight), and last time, when the tow driver came, he told me that the car just has a very fast starter and if I cranked it for a while it would start. After about a minute that time, it fired right up and I did not take the car in to the dealer.
Tonight, I didn't try to crank it, as the starter whine is loud and waking the neighbors kids would be a bad thing. It will work tomorrow, I am sure.
<<<<<So bottom line, my guess is you got a good deal, but not because you bought under invoice - the MSRP the dealer worked with was overstated. Even the biggest dealers are working off 4.5% combination MSRP holdback and certified dealer rebate over dead cost. No dealer can sell your $41,700 MSRP cars for $36,700 if he is paying for all the equipment and plans to stay in business. Congratulations! You got a really good deal!>>>>>
I have a copy of the invoice and the $36,900 was almost $1500 below the dealer cost. There were no free moonroofs etc.
By the way while I was shopping around the oposite extreem from the dealer where I purchased was another dealer in Baltimore who added a sticker next to the factory sticker on his cars adding $2,000 to the price stating "limited availability markup" His pitch was the car was hard to get but he would knock that $2,000 off and sell you the car for sticker. I told the guy he was an [non-permissible content removed] since Lincoln was spending a fortune in advertising and finance buy downs to get customers thru his doors during tough times and he proceeds to piss them off. What an idiot.
This issue was discussed a long time ago and it has not come up in a long time. I had the same no start problem with my 2000 LS V8 Sport, it happened when the weather got cold. For reasons that were never defined, this would occur when there was a sudden change in temperature from warm to cold. What is happening is the engine is actually flooding, which causes a loss of compression. This creates a horrible sound as the engine is turning over. The fix is to turn the key to the off position and then with your gas pedal to the floor, try starting the car again. You will probably see a large plume of white smoke coming out the exhaust. With fuel injection (on the LS at least) the injectors will not fire when the pedal is pressed fully to the floor. Sounds like a crazy answer to your problem, but this is right from the Lincoln engineers who designed the engine.
article the more suspicious I become of its subjectivity. The article states "Its(CTS) slalom speed of 63.4 mph nearly equals the BMW's(63.8) and has the LS (at 59.8) tripping over cones trying to keep up.". The automatic V-6 LS they are referring to was in the July, 2000 issue of Road and Track. Does anyone have access to that issue to see if that LS had the sport package? We already know it was an automatic car, while the CTS(with sport package FE3) in the article is a manual.
Continuing in the CTS review, they state "Overall value champ is the Cadillac, by a good margin." Huh? The article compares the BASE price of the CTS ($29,350) to the LIST price of the LS ($35,265), when on page 114 of the same issue clearly shows the base price(Which R&T refers to as "List Price" for some reason. I always thought "List Price" was MSRP, what the car "Listed for" on the window sticker") of the LS (automatic) as $30,915. Was the editor asleep or a GM stockholder? Is this not blatant deception?
My previous 2 cars were GM prior to the LS, as I have family members employed by both GM(GMS discount) and Ford (A-Plan purchase). I guess my gripe is more with Road and Track than GM, as anything that give competition to the LS will only improve the breed. As for the CTS's looks, well, IMHO, it is DEFINITELY polarizing.
My last next door neighbor was a GM at a large Cadillac dealership here in south Florida. When news first came out about the CTS redesign, he told me candidly, "I hope they put a V-8 in it. I don't care what kind of horsepower numbers a V-6 makes, my customers want a V-8." I guess we will see what customers want.
Thanks to Tom12253 and stanny1 for your quick replies. The dealer mechanic claimed the car was flooded also. This seems quite strange since the problem occurred immediately the first time I tried to crank the engine. If loss of compression were the problem due to flooding, I would think that some amount of engine cranking would be required to first flood the engine.
I can't be sure but I don't believe the engine actually ever turned over. This would tend to agree with the bendix theory mentioned. It sounded to me like the bendix was attempting to engage the flywheel but couldn't. It sounded like the starter was turning far too fast for the engine to be turning over, even with some loss of compression due to fuel on the cylinder walls.
Sounds like some kind of moisture / freezing problem based upon the temperatures involved. I've experienced similar problems with unsealed relays in this temperature range. Moisture condenses on the contacts freezes overnight and prevents electrical contact until the ice melts. Sounds weird but true.
Brent, I sure would be grateful if you would post any details of these new incentives as soon as you hear. I definitely will hold off a few days, hoping there will be more info.
For those looking to buy a 2002 LS it would probably be worth waiting for a few weeks. Since the zero financing offers are now history the carmakers will need to do something to stimulate buyers in this economy. Word is from GM that they are planning on doing large rebates, incentives, etc. to take the place of zero financing. I would be willing to bet Lincoln will keep pace.
Hard starting sounds like the flooding problem. Also from a bit of Mania 1 trivia, it seems that when the engineers took the first LSes up to the Northern Territories for cold-weather testing the starter gears would freeze. So some hapless junior engineer would need to crawl under the car in -30 degree weather and whack the starter to free the gear. This was fixed before production started.
The picture spread of the CTS that R&T reviewed says more than words. There is quite a bit of lean in that car compared to the LS. They took an automatic Sport model LS and compared it to the CTS. Keep in mind that no matter what the CTS is brand new, the LS they compared it against was a 2000. I don't like the interior setup. The wheel looks like it came out of an older Caddy and the center stack looks added on. Putting the traction control switch in the glovebox shows you how much priority Caddy puts on sporting driving.
Though no matter what, I'm glad another American manufacturer is getting into the fray against the B-boys. Competition only improves the breed and the LS has a three year headstart. Don't think for a moment that Jonathan, et al, are going to be standing still and letting Caddy take over
rgnmstr, we're on the same page. I don't doubt you saw the invoice. My MY01 was on the lot for 4 months before I leased it and had the in dash CD changer included @ $605 MSRP and $526 invoice. Both numbers disappeared in the final deal because at that point the in dash changer was a freebie and the dealer got a cost adjustment from Lincoln. Invoice isn't invoice unless you know what the dealer knows, and that rarely happens. No dealer is going to sell close to dead cost, which is what your deal would be. The dealer got a cost reduction and you benefited. Great!
I subscibe but I haven't got my issue yet. Did they test these cars real time or compare the newly tested CTS with an old LS-6A test? I don't think R&T ever tested the LS Manual. Or was it C&D? Anyway, that fact alone is incredible. Did they just wake up to the first Lincoln Manual since 1951 and the first competitor to the B manual, RWD, 4 door monopoly for almost 15 years with this test? Makes you wonder what the "enthusiast" publications have been doing except for reviewing cars that no one can afford like the new wierd 7 series.
They did not test it real time. IIRC they said it was against the June 2000 test of the LS-6 automatic. They haven't test a manual. Which is interesting since R&T did that 30 page spread in 2000 on the LS.
On my 2001 at least, the exterior temperature is displayed on the climate control console. The F/C setting is independent of the dashboard English/Metric setting, by the way.
If you haven't seen anything picture-wise about the 2003 LS yet, here's a link. This only shows one pic pertaining to the LS but it does show the new front end under some disguise and also mentions a new interior. Sorry if any of this is already old news. It's the last car on the page:
Yes. Sensor located behind the grill. Reads out on climate control panel. Switchable from F to C.
If the compass is important to you, be sure it's available with the option package you want. On the '00 models, I think the compass only came with the factory phone/RESCU package.
The registration form for LS MANIA 3 is now available under the Events link on the LLSOC site. It is in Word as well as Adobe Reader PDF formats. If paying by check please mail it in, if you are paying by credit card you have the option of faxing it in.
GM has already announced rebates to take the place of the 0% financing. They're offering $2002 factory rebates on EVERY 2002 model. Even Corvettes and Escalades. But since the CTS is a 2003 model it won't be eligible.
The R&T article seems to be inaccurate on the skid pad numbers. The Feb 2002 Car and Driver comparison shows the LS has the highest skid pad reading of any of the 7 cars they tested. The LS is at .84g and the CTS,BMW andAudi are at .83.
It is also interesting that the LS is about 2/3 as loud inside at 70mph, coasting or cruising, than the Catera, er CTS. The LS they tested was a 2001 V6 not the 2002.
<<,rgnmstr, we're on the same page. I don't doubt you saw the invoice. My MY01 was on the lot for 4 months before I leased it and had the in dash CD changer included @ $605 MSRP and $526 invoice. Both numbers disappeared in the final deal because at that point the in dash changer was a freebie and the dealer got a cost adjustment from Lincoln. Invoice isn't invoice unless you know what the dealer knows, and that rarely happens. No dealer is going to sell close to dead cost, which is what your deal would be. The dealer got a cost reduction and you benefited. Great! >>>>
I not only saw the invoice I have a copy of it. A souvenir kinda thing. I agree with you the one never knows what the real truth is when it comes to buying a car. It must be tough selling a car with everybody that comes through the front door of your store armed with what they think are all the numbers. I'm sure there are many things behind the scenes today that have been put into place to aid the dealer in making some money. I have felt for years that the holdback was not the only thing in the background. My big belief however is that they give the cars away and make the real money in the service dept. In my case all I know is that one dealer beat 10 dealers by thousands so I signed at the bottom. Hell, 10 years from now that difference won't even be remembered or cared about when the car is driven away by the new owner who will probably buy it for a couple of grand.
My current lease ends February 14 so I will be looking in the next two weeks to finalize my next car. I am interested in 36 months, 15,000 miles a year with the All -Season Package.
Curious what others are paying for same type lease. I know the current deals end on January 14th so when someone knows what Ford will be offering I would love to know. Hope it is similar to GM $2002 cash back.
I understand that 5th gear in the automatic transmission was changed from .75 to .71 in September on the 2002 models. Were there changes in the other 4 gears? What are the other 4 gears and reverse (old and new)?
But what about the first gear multiplication? Do we know the first gear ratio of the CTS? The CTS with the 3.73 probably has more torque multiplication in first gear. Of course, the real solution is a six-speed with something like a .71 overdrive, like the W58 five speed used in the Supras. The IS300 W55 five-speed is worse than the CTS with an .85. This, to me, is not even an overdrive. The CTS, LS, and IS all have excessive cruising rpms. I could understand this for pure racing cars but on American highways, when you hit fifth, you don't need to have close ratio acceleration. It's time to shut down and cruise. It's over. I think Getrag builds trannys for tight, short European roads. Same with the Japanese recently. I hope the rumored six-speed in the G35 has the right ratios. I think fifth should be slightly overdrive and sixth should be drastic overdrive. 4 valve engines are supposed to have wide torque curves (although at the expense of low-end torque without VVT). With such wide torque curves, why do we need such close ratios? The ratios in the LS Auto tranny are closer to ideal. Why the Manual tranny engineers have to be different is beyond me. No wonder manual trannys are in disfavor. If there is no performance or economy advantage, then why go manual? Especially if one has to accept a smaller engine to get the manual. Manual cars of yesterday always had the better engines. Somehow the BMW engineers still hear the call. Too bad they want so much to join the club. And too bad everyone else is afraid to use the parts they already have to play the game.
Comments
The ACC does not function the same way as a conventional HVAC system. In order to maintain the driver-selected temp., warm and cool air are blended together. In order to do this, the AC compressor must obviously be engaged and will cycle on and off as long as the ambient temp is at or around freezing. This is the nature of an ACC system and is not the arbitrary decision of Lincoln engineers. That's the whole point of ACC. You do not need to keep fiddling with the controls to stay comfortable. The system does that for you by mixing heated and cooled air together. Even in a conventional (American) system, when you engage the defroster, the AC compressor will engage, even in the dead of winter. Dehumidified air is supplied for window defogging purposes. I'm not sure how it works now, but I remember when many Japanese cars needed to have the A/C manually engaged with outside air setting in order to properly defog the windows in winter. I was in a carpool some years back and argued with one of the drivers season after season when he complained that he could not clear the windows even with defroster on high. He was running the system on recirculate with the compressor off. Some habits die hard. Same guy refused to turn the A/C on in summer until we were "on the highway." He was worried about overheating. No amount of explaining that the car had an electric cooling fan that would run under these conditions and was actually more efficient than an engine-driven fan could convince him. Of course, he never questioned why my car was fine with A/C running in the worst city traffic on the hottest July day.
Tom
LLSOC Member
So now the Manual LS has got real competition from Caddy and both cars will feel the heat from the coming Infinity G35 in April and it's rumored 6 speed version later in the year (after the 350 Z intro, which features the same tranny). My, my, aren't we having a real circus! Stanny1, who's gonna keep his seat belt fastened for this one. (And hoping Lincoln is thinkin', and they know that sister company Mazda has an overdrive RX-7 five-speed that has already been prototyped with the Duratech. And if the CTS has an LSD differential as well, you are just twisting the knife and it really hurts)
As I remeber, the collapse of the main circuit excites the secondary circuit, creating the spark at the coil. I believe the separate coils act the same; By giving the main winding a voltage and breaking it, it then induces the spark voltage.
I think that the only difference is that now the coil over system requires very small voltage (3.3 v.) to preform the duties, rather that the 8 volts required before.
The coil pack is widely used on the 4.6L V-8. It has four connectors on it, one for four of the plugs. The pack fires twice per pack, thereby firing once when a cylinder is at it's compression cycle while the other is at it's exhaust cycle. I know that the 4.6 used two coil packs, both driven by the cams of the cylinder heads.
But, the basic fundamental is the same, it is the induction of electrical energy that makes the spark, not the transformation of the energy. Oh, to meet Charles Kettering and discuss what's become of his electrical systems in cars!
More interesting though, in the Cadillac provided 2003 CTS Competitive Comparison the cars listed are the following:
· BMW ’02 3 Series 330i Sedan
· BMW ’02 5 Series 530i Sedan
· Lexus ’02 ES 300 Sedan
· MBZ ’02 C-Class C320 Sedan
All the cars had a higher base price than the CTS ($29,990 est.)
So it seems that Cadillac is more interested in comparing itself to foreign autos than the U.S.
Final note: The Lincoln booth looked awesome, alot of the same visual cues of the new dealers showroom!
Packv12 Re: Coil. Thanks for the correction/clarification. Like I said, I'm not an EE, so I don't know from transformers & inductors. Heck, I can barely stand to change my own circuit breakers.
I keep driving past the Cadillac dealer on my way home from work to see if they've got a CTS yet. Curious to see if the styling is any less, uh, "polarizing" in person. I've always thought the LS looks much, much better in real life than in photos. I had never seen one on the road when I drove onto the Lincoln dealer's lot. Good thing the salesman wasn't around to see my initial reaction. I'd have ended up paying over sticker for it.:)
Yup, you get what you pay for. But you can't BUY the wisdom & brilliant insight we get for free here in Town Hall.:)
Scott
LLSOC Member
Counting the days . . .
Just a thought.
They are three blocks away from Lincoln HQ and provide free shuttle bus transportation to and from John Wayne Airport as well as the Irvine Spectrum.
The registration form for MANIA 3 will be posted at the LLSOC website later today, both in the bulletin board under the LS MANIA 3 forum as well as the MANIA 3 link on the main page.
This time we are accepting checks as well as credit cards to make it easier for everyone. There is a 5 percent processing charge for credit cards. This event, as all our MANIA events are, is only open to LLSOC members so if you want to go you have to be a member.
If you have any questions, please email them to me at: brian.gowing@llsoc.com
Brian
LLSOC President
Does anyone know the cause of this problem? My dealers usually very good but this one currently has them baffled.
I'd try another dealer. All season pkg is still an option and it does seem to find it's way on most cars but the heated seats are now at no charge. Ditto for the Alpine stereo when car includes Sport Pkg. I just purchased a 2002 LS Sport without the pimpmobile chrome wheels for almost $5,000 below sticker. That put it just short of $1500 below invoice. The purchase was made in November. Sticker was $41,700. Paid $36,900.
Must have been a special X plan or something similar. If not, are you available to negotiate my next purchase ;-)
Gary, LLSOC non charter member
Must have been a special X plan or something similar. If not, are you available to negotiate my next purchase ;-)>>
Don't know what an X plan is. I started out shopping for a 01 because of the 5 year financing. Pricing was not much better than 02s. I figured why buy a 01 if I can buy an 02 at the same price. Quotes were averaging around $2K-2.5K off sticker for either one. I'm on the road with my job therefore I was able to stop at a number of dealers to look and talk price. Some acted like they were selling some hard to get item and others wanted to sell a car. I wound up buying from Dulaney LM in Maryland. They wanted to sell a car. Salesman said they had "money" from Lincoln to move some 2002s. I don't know if that was a line or not but as I stated they sold me the car just short of $1500 below invoice which was almost $5K off sticker. The great part was I never even had to go thru the salesmanager bullcrap of "we can't sell a car for that" and argue for an hour. The salesman went back to the salesmanager to get approval. Like I said I bought the car w/$41.7K sticker for $36.9K and other dealers would only do $38 something and they didn't have the communication package. Now my car did come with the communication package and I did hear a conversation at another dealer that Lincoln sold some cars to dealers with that as a no charge item to get salesman to try it out although I don't know how they would do that since it must be activated thru Sprint by the owner. It was not shown as a no charge item on my sticker or invoice therefore I can't confirm the story. I didn't want the feature but my wife has totally fallen in love with it because of her job. I bought a set of Firestone Firehawks from Tire Rack . com also. Friends don't believe that one but you know all about it.
By the way, in changing the equipment packages on this car for MY02, Lincoln Ddid increase the invoice price more than the MSRP by around $300. So the Roseville dealer wasn't totally wrong.
Again, I remember that from playing with the numbers early in the MY switchover.
Jim
LLSOC member
I have already picked up another car (a mistake, I now realize), but he said the incentives that will be introduced for all Lincoln vehicles will be amazing. He said I could get the same options on a 2002 sport for about 30.00 less than I have been paying for my 2000. Higher residuals, cheap money factor, etc. He doesn't have all of the details, but I am going to talk to him Wednesday, so if I can get specifics I'll post them here.
By the way, I found out the hard way how much content the LS actually has compared to European vehicles. I thought I wouldn't miss some of these things, but if I could get out of my current lease and go back to an LS, I would.
Brent
I have already picked up another car (a mistake, I now realize), but he said the incentives that will be introduced for all Lincoln vehicles will be amazing. He said I could get the same options on a 2002 sport for about 30.00 less than I have been paying for my 2000. Higher residuals, cheap money factor, etc. He doesn't have all of the details, but I am going to talk to him Wednesday, so if I can get specifics I'll post them here.
By the way, I found out the hard way how much content the LS actually has compared to European vehicles. I thought I wouldn't miss some of these things, but if I could get out of my current lease and go back to an LS, I would.
Brent
Brent
I had this happen once 2 winters ago. Seems to occur around 28 degrees for me (like tonight), and last time, when the tow driver came, he told me that the car just has a very fast starter and if I cranked it for a while it would start. After about a minute that time, it fired right up and I did not take the car in to the dealer.
Tonight, I didn't try to crank it, as the starter whine is loud and waking the neighbors kids would be a bad thing. It will work tomorrow, I am sure.
Brent
I have a copy of the invoice and the $36,900 was almost $1500 below the dealer cost. There were no free moonroofs etc.
By the way while I was shopping around the oposite extreem from the dealer where I purchased was another dealer in Baltimore who added a sticker next to the factory sticker on his cars adding $2,000 to the price stating "limited availability markup" His pitch was the car was hard to get but he would knock that $2,000 off and sell you the car for sticker. I told the guy he was an [non-permissible content removed] since Lincoln was spending a fortune in advertising and finance buy downs to get customers thru his doors during tough times and he proceeds to piss them off. What an idiot.
Tom
LLSOC Charter Member
Continuing in the CTS review, they state "Overall value champ is the Cadillac, by a good margin." Huh? The article compares the BASE price of the CTS ($29,350) to the LIST price of the LS ($35,265), when on page 114 of the same issue clearly shows the base price(Which R&T refers to as "List Price" for some reason. I always thought "List Price" was MSRP, what the car "Listed for" on the window sticker") of the LS (automatic) as $30,915. Was the editor asleep or a GM stockholder? Is this not blatant deception?
My previous 2 cars were GM prior to the LS, as I have family members employed by both GM(GMS discount) and Ford (A-Plan purchase). I guess my gripe is more with Road and Track than GM, as anything that give competition to the LS will only improve the breed. As for the CTS's looks, well, IMHO, it is DEFINITELY polarizing.
My last next door neighbor was a GM at a large Cadillac dealership here in south Florida. When news first came out about the CTS redesign, he told me candidly, "I hope they put a V-8 in it. I don't care what kind of horsepower numbers a V-6 makes, my customers want a V-8." I guess we will see what customers want.
I can't be sure but I don't believe the engine actually ever turned over. This would tend to agree with the bendix theory mentioned. It sounded to me like the bendix was attempting to engage the flywheel but couldn't. It sounded like the starter was turning far too fast for the engine to be turning over, even with some loss of compression due to fuel on the cylinder walls.
Sounds like some kind of moisture / freezing problem based upon the temperatures involved. I've experienced similar problems with unsealed relays in this temperature range. Moisture condenses on the contacts freezes overnight and prevents electrical contact until the ice melts. Sounds weird but true.
Hard starting sounds like the flooding problem. Also from a bit of Mania 1 trivia, it seems that when the engineers took the first LSes up to the Northern Territories for cold-weather testing the starter gears would freeze. So some hapless junior engineer would need to crawl under the car in -30 degree weather and whack the starter to free the gear. This was fixed before production started.
The picture spread of the CTS that R&T reviewed says more than words. There is quite a bit of lean in that car compared to the LS. They took an automatic Sport model LS and compared it to the CTS. Keep in mind that no matter what the CTS is brand new, the LS they compared it against was a 2000. I don't like the interior setup. The wheel looks like it came out of an older Caddy and the center stack looks added on. Putting the traction control switch in the glovebox shows you how much priority Caddy puts on sporting driving.
Though no matter what, I'm glad another American manufacturer is getting into the fray against the B-boys. Competition only improves the breed and the LS has a three year headstart. Don't think for a moment that Jonathan, et al, are going to be standing still and letting Caddy take over
Brian
LLSOC Prez
http://www.thehollywoodextra.com/lincoln/lincoln.html
If the compass is important to you, be sure it's available with the option package you want. On the '00 models, I think the compass only came with the factory phone/RESCU package.
Scott
LLSOC Member
Brian
LLSOC President
Does anyone know an easy way to follow up on this?
It is also interesting that the LS is about 2/3 as loud inside at 70mph, coasting or cruising, than the Catera, er CTS. The LS they tested was a 2001 V6 not the 2002.
I not only saw the invoice I have a copy of it. A souvenir kinda thing. I agree with you the one never knows what the real truth is when it comes to buying a car. It must be tough selling a car with everybody that comes through the front door of your store armed with what they think are all the numbers. I'm sure there are many things behind the scenes today that have been put into place to aid the dealer in making some money. I have felt for years that the holdback was not the only thing in the background. My big belief however is that they give the cars away and make the real money in the service dept. In my case all I know is that one dealer beat 10 dealers by thousands so I signed at the bottom. Hell, 10 years from now that difference won't even be remembered or cared about when the car is driven away by the new owner who will probably buy it for a couple of grand.
LS - 3.07(diff) X 1.0(5th) = 3.07 overall
CTS - 3.73(diff) X .82(5th) = 3.06 overall
Hmmmmmmm..... Do you want the 6 or the half dozen?
:-)
Curious what others are paying for same type lease. I know the current deals end on January 14th so when someone knows what Ford will be offering I would love to know. Hope it is similar to GM $2002 cash back.
Thanks
OLD NEW
1st 3.22 3.22
2nd 2.41 2.28
3rd 1.54 1.54
4th 1.00 1.00
5th 0.75 0.71
Rev 3.25 3.25
As you can see only 2nd and 5th ratios changed.
Mark