Hey Stan, you can normalize the 0-60 acceleration times by dividing the seconds by the LB/HP number (power to weight ratio) to account for the different vehicle weights. This calculation method, (which is very similar to the handicapping used in dragracing), shows that the LS was really #4 in acceleration.
Mostly I don't understand why C&D didn't test a 530 and an A6, which are both available with a manual, and are closer in size and weight to the LS and CTS. Unless of course they wanted to predetermine the results? Ya think?
Yes, Joe, they hardly ever test the lower 5 series cars. Maybe the value sucks compared to the LS. Someone is going to build a car that matches the Bimmer and costs alot less. I think that car will be the G35, although it is still smaller than the LS. The LS has to be #1 in $ per cubic foot.
For some reason the comparison tests seem to focus on price, not size. This really hurts the LS (and the CTS) because they never seem to give the LS credit for having much more room at the expense of a few tenths acceleration and slalom speed. If they included the LS in the appropriate category with the A6, MB E-series and 5-series then the LS would have a big price advantage. But all they seem to want to test are "entry level" luxury cars or the top end XKR, 540i/M5 and AMG cars.
When exactly is the "baby LS" due out? That's what Lincoln needs for these comparison tests.
I have never noticed the air from the side window defroster vents being a different temperature than from other vents. Since your posts, I have paid particular attention. It is around 30 degrees in Minneapolis and I have the temperature set at 75. The air from the all vents is the same warm temperature.
Also, I have never had a fogging problem - even in minus 0 temperatures with by wife and inlaws in the car. If anything would fog up the windows it would be my mother-in-law. Sometimes the rear window will fog when there are rear-seat passengers but never the windshield or side windows. I very rarely use the "defrost" mode. Even in the "footwell" mode, it seems like a lot of warm air comes out the defroster vents.
Just thinking about what this alleged new performance division could produce. Forget the Town Car. The Continental is dead (for now). That leaves the LS and Navigator. (I don't see a performance version of the aviator right now). Fortunately we have some very nice "drop-in" powertrains available for both. Take the 400 hp 4.2L/ZF 6-speed automatic from the S-type and bolt it right in the LS. Add 18-in wheels and a nice, subdued body kit. A 6-speed manual would be the icing on the cake.
Now for the Navigator. GM still has the lead in HP with their Escalade. But you could easily (?) drop in the SC 5.4L from the Lightning and beef up the suspension (maybe with Lightning parts). Bye bye Escalade.
Now if Ford would just build the GT40 to compete with the Corvette and Viper..........
erz..4 I believe the 3.0L Duratec came first so the 2.5 is probably a destroked 3.0 but I don't know if they share the same bore size.
G35 - I is my understanding that the new G35 will be closer in size to the 330i & IS-300 than the LS. I could be wrong but I thought that's what it said in an Autoweek blurb on the G35 a while back.
Reviews - Wow, it looks like I got my C&D over a week before everyone else! C&D ususally does comparo. tests cars with cars of similar price. This totally misses the LS value proposition. For my primary driver I'm not interested in anything smaller than the LS. I test drove a 328i before I bought my LS and it is just plain too small for me especially considering its tiny trunk. So look at is this way: with the LS you get a 4 dr sedan as big as a 7 Series that costs less than a 330i, can pull more G's on a skid pad than either and handles almost as well as either. It may be slower than the 330i, but who cares I'm not planning on ever buying a 330i.
I've never figured out why the GM push-rod two valve truck engines have better power than the Navigator 4 cam, 4 valve Intech/Cobra type engines. It must be a torque contest, or simply cubic inches. But all across the truck engine spectrum, Ford OHC engines seem to come in second to those prehistoric GM engines. All I can figure out is that Ford is not getting the full potential out of these designs. I think they should "Tundra" most of the truck line. For some reason, the domestic manufacturers are afraid to put their Intechs/Romeos and Northstars in anything but the luxo boats whose drivers never floor the throttle anyway. It costs very little more to mass produce those "exotic" V-8s. Look at Toyota. I don't think they build a two-valve engine anymore. And the Lexus-type V-8 design can be found in the Tundra, LS430, and at least two "SUV" models.
Interesting, we now have 2 LS's with cold air and 1 LS with hot air (out the side vents when panel vents are hot.) Thanks to rp and bl for checking.
As long as there's 1 LS that works the way I think it should, I'm calling this a problem. Also, I found on mine that the cold air is also coming out of the defroster up by the windshield.
So, time for a call to my friendly service dept. They were going to call me this week anyway to tell me that the parts to seal up my headlamps are in. Yep, my 2001 headlamps fogged up over the holidays as we had a lot of cold/wet weather here. I've been waiting since before Xmas when I first called in. I called back last week and no one had ordered the parts though the service advisor had promised he would. Now the next guy promised last week it would be fixed this week but no call yet. Am I rambling? Am I happy?
Brian: So we're gonna have some cool toys at Mania 3? I can't wait to try out the GTechPro and the ExtremeGeez! I guess I better register soon, eh?
I'm looking forward to Mania 3 for other reasons too. I'm going to do something I've never done since I've been out here: Take a few days and drive to LA via the Coast Hiway - Rte 1 - and explore and photograph. What a blast rte 1 will be in the LS. That's one of the reasons I never did it before - the road is so twisty that it can get very tedious in a 'regular' car or SUV.
George - Hwy 1 sounds like a great ride - at least in theory. You may be lucky but the road is so full of old farts in RVs and SUVs that you may want to call it off early. That's hard to do, because one is committed from Monterey to Cambria unless G18 is open to the east. If so, take G18 to G14 to San Lucas and then 198 through Coalinga to I-5. It's a much faster ride than 46 east which is 55-65mph and radar controlled (I take 46 2x a year). I will be waiting for a report on traffic conditions when you make it to 3. I also want to see that gorgeous Autumn Red LS Manual of yours. Rare car indeed. Good Hunting. Coneinator Out.
Yeah, I know. That's another of the reasons I've not done this yet! I'll keep your alternate rte in mind, but I'd realy like to go all the way down the coast, if only to see it and hopefully add to my marketable photographs. This is probably the time of year when there are the fewest RVs out there and besides, my LS will be able to get me out from behind some situations that I would have been stuck in were I driving my van or Jeep.
I'll have to find a good car wash in Irvine to get Red lookin her best for Mania 3. I'm hopin you and I could swap cars for a run so I can get a feel for what your mods have done for performance and you can recall what yours was like when stock! Though I understand if you'd prefer not to let another maniac drive your car - I might hit some cones or something! :>)
Which one is the One that goes from Malibu Beach to Canoga Park (The Valley) through the Mountains. That is a Short Really Windy one? Just Curious. I took it once when I went to the Old Getty. There is also craploads of traffic on that one.. (Sorry I forgot we are talking LA).
By Mania 3, I'll have the 2002 air box on and I already have the Borla, so you can get an impression on IF those two items make a difference. Maybe Brian can hook-up those two devices for an instrumented test. I also want your opinion on my use of Redline MTL in the tranny. I can't accept that 7.9 seconds from the new C&D test.
I too originally had the fogging problem, but solved it by buying a bottle of Anti-Fog (by the makers of "Rain-X") and putting about 6 drops in a full 16oz bottle of liquid window cleaner. It can also be applied after window cleaning. Works great but its not perfect, it resists fogging...so a car full of mother-in-laws would probably lead to death...er...fogging ;-)~
I bet the six-liter Escalade makes the Excursion look like an economy model. Is it mpg or gpm? Well, if you can afford an Escalade, what's a little gas mileage...
There are two roads that run from the Malibu coast to the Valley: Topanga Canyon Road and Malibu Canyon Road both are nice drives with great scenery.
The real fun drive in my opinion is Mulholland Drive which runs from Malibu Canyon Road to Hollywood. Runs along the ridge road that separates West side of L.A. and the San Fernando Valley. On Sunday there are a lot of motorcycle heading to the roadhouse.
I used to race a Mini Cooper and a TR8 on that road when I was in high school, it is curves deluxe with great views. see ya in Irvine! steve_ca LLSOC Member
If you take pictures you can put a great drive article together for the club magazine, if you would like!
Registering soon would be a good idea. The Doubletree hotel rates that we got for the club are only good until January 24th then the remaining rooms will be released to the general public. So if you're planning on going or even seriously thinking about it make sure you have your reservation at the hotel in. George, you may want to also post looking for a room buddy on the LLSOC board under the Mania 3 topic in case anyone else is so inclined.
I don't remember which one but I think it was the Topanga one.. Will have to verify with my cousin. Thanks for the input though SOCAL Steve and see ya at MANIA 3.
It seems that with the advent of 4 valves, VVT, and variably-tuned intakes that a more appropriate metric than peak HP is needed.
To me, the area under either the torque or HP curve would be a better metric to use in measuring usable engine output, and predicting vehicle performance.
It's unit of measure would be: For HP: FT # Rev/Min^2 For Torque: Ft # Rev/Min
If adopted, the measure would show the difference between a 300 HP 4.3L engine, and a 300 HP nearly identical 4.0L engine.
Is such a metric now in use? If so, what's it called? If not in use, what do you think of it?
Hmmm. . .this sounds remarkably like calculus -- areas under the curve and all.
Haven't you heard? H. L. Menken (I think it was) said that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. A similar truism could be generated regarding the intelligence of the same group, but why bother. Lincoln introduced the LS in the face of this, and the jury's still out.
I live and breathe metrics and completely agree that your suggestions have merit. Now, do you really think the automotive press can: 1) understand what you're talking about or 2) use an actual measurement system that doesn't allow them to flog their: a) biggest advertiser or b) preconceived notions.
In my V8, the problem was a bad connection between the 4-conductor cable and the (green) connector next to the ignition switch. My dealer replaced the whole assembly yesterday at no charge.
I strongly doubt there was anything unique about this problem for the V8 model. It was a very simple problem to fix, but very tricky to find (Thanks Laura Hazebrouck! (Lincoln engineeressa who designed the PATS)).
Yeah, you're correct about the $$ factor being the criteria. But the test mentioned a $40K number, and you CAN get a 5 series or A6 within that limit. Granted, they would be "strippers", but at least the comparison would pass the credibility test. I mean after all, someone looking to buy an LS size vehicle would be looking at the 5 series/A6 series, NOT a microscopically sized 3 series or A4. As for not being able to get the same content with a 5 series/A6 series, well... that's what you get (or not get) in a comparably sized BMW/Audi for the $40K.
<< "...do you really think the automotive press can: 1) understand what you're talking about or 2) use an actual measurement system that doesn't allow them to flog their: a) biggest advertiser or b) preconceived notions." >>
I think it's possible if they can "discover" it, if it can be given a catchy buzzword, and it demonstrates that it is a better output measure and performance predictor.
"Applied Horsepower", or "AHP" vs. peak horsepower comes to mind as a buzzword/buzzphrase that is descriptive, and could catch on. For an auto transmission vehicle I would use the area under the curve from torque converter stall speed to red line. But this has a problem ... a higher stall speed would likely out-accelerate one lower, but have less Applied Horsepower. This clearly needs work.
Maybe area under the curve from 0-60, 0-100, etc. In these cases, higher stall speed would also have more Applied HP, and better performance.
I'm getting an uneasy feeling that this isn't the proper forum for this discussion. If so, please jump in anyone. If possible, suggest an alternate forum. I feel strongly about this concept, and Steve's comments indicate that I'm not completely nuts ... (or we both are)
This is definitely a discussion better held in the LLSOC board . . . or at least another Edmunds board. This one will have people's eyes glaze over in no time! I think this is an interesting topic, but highly technical and will evade an easy, readily applicable description for a layman (i.e., it ain't intuitive!)
You could even normalize the Applied Horespower on cost, but that's another can of worms . . .
would and should be welcome on the LLSOC site, but that would severely limit the pool of participants. Besides engineers, I'd like to see input from the more technical-savvy members of the automotive press.
Members of the Automotive Press? Pretty scarce. The editor-in-chief of C&D,Csaba Csere, has an engineering degree, but most of these guys... Also, they never seem to get much inside info from the people inside the car companies to verify their (mis)information or just ask "why". Most of these articles are not even semi-techo. The average reader is probably able to understand a little more. Personally, I long for those very occasional tech articles in R&T.
I received delivery of my LS in December. Then I made a mistake. I allowed the dealer to apply an interior protectorent to the car. I was assured that it would not add sheen to the interior Well it did and especially the dashboard. It now presents a terrible glare when I drive into the sun. I contacted the manufacturer of the product (ECP) and they told me that it was a very tough job to remove it but if I used a glass cleaner with ammonia and wash it ten times it might work. It almost works. It tried it on part of the dashboard and it does remove some of it but it took me hours for one square foot. Now I am in bigger trouble because of the uneven look to the dashboard because the product does not come off evenly. The dealer did try on two occasions to remove the sheen but failed. Are there any suggestions out there? Is there someting else I could apply that would negate the sheen?
Another problem with the product is what it does to the seats. The leather remains without a sheen but the vinal (bad spelling) shines. This simply lets everyone know what is leather and what is not.
One more point. I am 6'2" tall and the car is designed for people a little shorter. What can I do to remove the handle above my seat. My head keeps hitting it when I hit a bump or make a quick turn to the right. If I remove the handle, what do I do about the holes in the headliner.
When I worked in the Aerospace Engineering field, I subscribed to Aviation Week and Space Technology (a McGraw-Hill publication). That was an excellent publication for "high-level" technicl overview stuff (that blows away anything seen in the popular automotive press). I thought more detailed articles about "things mechanical" could be found in a publication called "Design News", IIRC. I once read a very good article (sometime during the late 1980s) outlining the technical atributes of the I-6 and V-6 internal combustion engine platforms. (We've been there before, and I sure don't want to go back now). That article touched on all the issues jnowski brought up earlier, but I dared not site the article from memory because I couldn't lay my hands on it as back-up.
I haven't really seen a "Automotive" publication that comes close to the level of technical integrity as the publications I cite above. If one exists, I hope someone would be kind enough to let me know.
You might try denatured alcohol. It's usually right next to the paint thinner at the hardware store. Good solvent, safe on virtually all plastics. Keep it off the leather, though. If it won't work with just a cloth, try the finest Scotch Brite pad available, I believe it's the white one. We had an issue some time back with an uneven, blotchy finish on the top surface of the dashboards. Lincoln's recommended fix was a plastic protectant (Black Max, IIRC) applied very lightly with a soft abrasive pad. Easy on the elbow grease! After (if) you've got the stuff removed, you'll probably have a dull, uneven finish, and some good plastic/vinyl treatment should even it out. I use Meguiars, very sparingly, and rub it out real thoroughly with a towel. Smooths out the finish without excessive glare.
You didn't so much make a mistake as learned a Lesson: With minimal effort and expense, you can do a much better job of caring for your car than the low-wage Detailing Professionals employed by the dealer.
Thanks Scott. I will try the denatured alcohol. I will also use the Scott Brite Pad. I know it will take me a long time to get the interior back to its proper look. I did learn my lesson. Tony
Sorry this took so long to get, but here is what the dealers in Colorado are offering on new leases:
- No out of pocket expenses on drive away. - They pay the first months payment. - Very good money factors.
The quote I got, which was for a loaded sport V8 (very siumilar to my car when I got it 2 years ago), was 497.00 per month, which is 8 dollars a month less than I paid.
I looked at a 2002 in the showroom, and they really have made improvements, althought I didn't like the textured leather on the seats.
Brent, If the leather in the showroom car that you saw is different from yours, then I'd guess you were looking at a Premium package LS. The leather with that package is called "Nudo"; it has a sort of basket-weave pattern in the middle section of the seats. Premium comes with the Sport wheels and suspension, but it has the chrome/polished bumper strips and no SST shifter. (Moonroof is also included with Premium.)
The Sport and "regular" models still have the same leather (both pattern and colors) in '02 that they had the prior two years.
It's probably payback for your faux-pas of a prior event See they never forget!
LLSOC would love to have this discussion on engineering metrics and other engineering discussions on our board. As a matter of fact I'll set up a new forum called Engineering Forum specifically to group this tantalizing discussion and highlight it.
I've added a link to the Ford Revitalization Plan Presentation that was given on Friday. It's in a PDF format and it's on the LLSOC main page under the Club/LS News section in the middle of the page at www.llsoc.com. It's in a PDF format and is quite blunt about where Ford went wrong and about what they are doing to correct it.
Engineering forum sounds good. Before I go there, I have a request of the Edmunds' participants:
I need dyno data for engines, or cars run on chassis dyno. Ideally, for two or more engines that are different, but have similar HP output. The engines can be disguised as engine A & engine B. The output data can even be disguised by de-rating each point by the same percentage. I'll return the favor by calculating "Applied Horsepower", or something similar, & sending it to you for your comparison with known vehicle performance.
Torque or Horsepower, by RPM, in a format that can be read by Excel.
Also, I remember a regular here that has software that predicts vehicle performance, but I've lost his name. If listening, please send me an email at gary4444@chartermi.net
The more I think about performance metrics the more I believe that there is a much better one than peak HP or peak torque. Think about it: each of those metrics is stated at a SINGLE RPM for a device that has an operating range of ~500 to 6500 RPM. What's up with that? At best, they are very coarse measures for an automobile engine. Probably good measures for stationary engines,(What James Watt had when he created the horsepower metric) or even aircraft piston engines.
But those applications are a far cry the automotive application. I see evidence of the industry's frustration with these single-point measurements when I read statements like "it produces 90% of it's peak torque from 2000 RPM up"
I sense glassy eyes, so I'm done with this issue on this forum.
My 2000 LS has almost hit 17,000 miles when my driver side rear window finally fell into the door. I only used the window five times since I got the car a year and a half ago! I am debating whether to bring the passenger side rear window up and down until it fails or leave it since it will eventually fail.
Last month my front brakes started to squeal on slow braking and the dealer mentioned that the wear indicators are already touching the rotors. Brake pads are on back order and will take around two weeks. I guess I can wait for them since it is under warranty. The dealer isn't sure if replacing the sport brake pads with the standard ones will void the warranty. They will let me know shortly.
Well, it finally became clear, thanks to a recent "best cars" article. (I'm dragging this from memory, so I may be a little off on the numbers.)
Out of 20 test vehicles, only three were from USA companies. Why? Because USA car companies would rather sink development dollars into SUV's/trucks rather than cars. That's why you don't have a 6 speed manual V8 LS with 300 HP or a 6 cylinder that can run with the foreign crowd; the bucks went into the new Explorer platform and the rear seats in the new Expedition and the Lincoln Blackwood.
GM kills the Camaro/Firebird, instead of correcting it's obvious deficiencies, and introduces a new line of trucks/suv's. Two American icons die.
BMW, Volvo, and Acura each bring one new SUV crossover to the market, while we design/build/market Silverado's, Explorers, Tahoes, Mountaineers, Expeditions, Navigators, Blackwoods, Escalades, Escapes, Escursions, Durangos, Lightnings, on and on and on.
Maybe, just maybe, the BMW's and Audi's are better cars, and all the automobile editors are not on the take, because the foreign dollars were spent building better cars, cars built for drivers, not SUV/truck products to beat the "other guy's" SUV/trucks.
You can't blame the US companies; they are building what most of us want. We can build cars as good or better than the foreign brands; we just don't want to.
Me? I wouldn't be caught dead driving an SUV, but, unfortunately, I'm in the minority.
The choices available to the sedan buyer have never been better, running from, for example, the new Altima to the mighty M5. If you're inclined to buy American, Cadillac now has a serious entry into the sport luxury field, and it seems that the successor to the 300M will be RWD. And, of course, the LS is still competitive with anything this side of the M5 and a tremendous value. Today there's a post on the 5 series board from someone bemoaning the sluggishness of a 525 he test drove, and that it's a $40k+ car. I was tempted to suggest the LS, but my asbestos undershorts are in the wash.:)
I have nothing against SUVs but don't understand their appeal. I don't believe they're especially safe; when I see one off the road during a snowstorm, it's usually on it's side. When someone tells me their $40k "truck" drives and/or rides like a car, I reply, "Not a $40k car."
But, to each his, or her, own. And if Ford can make a pile of money selling Explorers and Navigators, they'll spend some of it on developing cars for those of us who prefer driving to riding.
Interesting that your dealer told you that the front brake squeal was due to the wear indicators touching the rotors, as there are no wear indicators on the front pads of the LS. I think that 2 weeks to get a set of front pads is outrageous, even for HI. This is a quick and easy job for a dealer, one that they love to do, and I can't believe that they wouldn't keep an adequate supply of replacement pads in stock. However, if they're going to replace them under warranty, I sure wouldn't complain. Do you have the ESP warranty that covers wear-out items?
My brakes (2000 Sport) started to squeal at around that mileage also, but the dealer diagnosed dirt and glazing. At 19K miles, there was only about 5K remaining.
I'm sorry that your window crashed after only 5 times of use, but those of us that attended LS Mania 3 learned from Lincoln engineers that the windows are less prone to crash if used more frequently. By the time yours are repaired, the "final fix" parts should be in the pipeline. Make sure that they fix both sides per TSB. Don't let them bamboozle you.
It looks like some of those "best" automakers can no longer resist the Sirens' call. It isn't even on the market yet, but the Porsche faithful are already crying in their beer over the forthcoming "Cayenne" SUV. VW will share this platform for their own SUV. Admittedly, nobody expects these to ride/handle like an Excursion. The Expedition-sized Toyota Sequoia has been on the market for some time now.
Let's try to think that maybe the billions in profits these things generated for Ford in the 90's provided the funding for the development of the LS.
I agree with you 100% about driving one. Unfortunately, many others have been "caught dead" driving one.
Nothing that $4.00 a gallon gas couldn't cure. If SUV owners had to take out a 2nd mortgage to fill up their huge tanks, they would twice about driving their 7,000 lb bohemoths to work 40 miles with one person on board. Instead of age of vehicle and value, they should charge license fees on weight or mass. The logical progression of the SUV phenomenom is that Peterbilt will bring out a mini-semi that will put you even higher above your peers and carry a trailer that's empty most of the time. What a status symbol to hold the whole soccer team and all their gear to go camping for a month. If you think the Expeditions and Suburbans are clogging your favorite twisty now, just wait.
Or is it windows and breaks? Anyway, Artie, tell me it ain't so! Even my Sable is supposed to have wearout indicators. I thought that was pretty standard on all car lines by now. I have 33k and have had no squealing (except from the passanger seat when occupied by the wife unit) or rotor warpage. Looking through my wonderful chrome wheels (can I thank you enough packV12? ) I appear to have plenty of pad.
I haven't had a window failure (yet), but asked my dealer about the status of the new part. He said they already had them in stock and that was about a month ago.
stanny1, Edmunds already has a bunch of forums on how bad SUV's allegedly are. IMHO, drive what you want, where you want. Like scottc8 pointed out, we benefit a lot from the income from these things. Like a minivan, I wouldn't be caught dead owning one. However, if you want one, to each there own! High gas prices are an annoyance to me (one less trip to In-N-Out), but to most families here, they force radical lifestyle changes.
I'll call Monday and check. Didn't have enough time today to get into details when I was at the dealership. With two kids in basketball, Saturdays are rough.
I'll tell you why I like SUVs. I live in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, a suburb of Denver. We have about 60,000 residents in our little slice of Colorado, roughly 90% of whom seem to be soccer moms in behemoths.
I bought my Expedition in October, 1997 (a 1998 model Eddie Bauer), because of a snow storm. Yeah, OK, I'm a wimp. See, it happened like this:
I spent 2 hours driving 19 miles trying to get home in my 1993 Mazda MX-6. I loved that car, but even with new tires on it I was just crawling along in a blizzard. I drove past a Ford dealership to get home, and I called my wife and told her I was going to stop and get a truck. She chewed me out, told me to do what I wanted, and then called a friend to complain that I had gone nuts. (Actually she was very supportive, and got a new couch for the family room a couple of weeks later). So, I pulled in to the dealership to buy an Expedition.
I got a great deal on a new truck. Waited about an hour, until they came in and told me they couldn't find it. I couldn't really blame them, because the now 16 inches of snow on the white SUV they were looking for made it, um, kinda disappear.
So, I went home. The next 6 miles took another 2 hours, and I ended up with my car not being able to pull its way up the driveway and into the garage. We had almost 3 feet of snow on the streets by morning. So, I didn't go anywhere for about 3 days.
When the storm was over, I went and picked up the truck, giving away my MX-6. We haven't had more than 3 inches of snow since.
The next day, my wife drove the Expedition for the first time, came home and told me she was keeping it and I could feel really good about driving the mini van. So I went a week later and leased a Continental (remember, the LS wasn't available yet, and 260 HP sounded good at the time).
So now I justify the thing by pulling a popup camper with it, and making sure my wife is safe driving the kids around in the midst of the other soccer moms. And on weekends, I go back to where trout just love to suck down dry flys.
So, overall, they have their place. And just because they aren't fast, and suck fuel, and don't handle well, and ... OK, I can't think of a reason to justify it right now, but I'll work on it.
The real benefit to the SUV, in hindsight, is that my wife likes to drive it, so I get to get things like Lincoln LS's and Jag X-Types. Which ain't all bad.
Comments
Mostly I don't understand why C&D didn't test a 530 and an A6, which are both available with a manual, and are closer in size and weight to the LS and CTS. Unless of course they wanted to predetermine the results? Ya think?
But hey, Pat's my friend. Of course, she might be responsible for everything but, I have no knowledge of her actions.
I think that we should just click our shoes together three times, I mean you should., cause I actually got a brain.
When exactly is the "baby LS" due out? That's what Lincoln needs for these comparison tests.
Also, I have never had a fogging problem - even in minus 0 temperatures with by wife and inlaws in the car. If anything would fog up the windows it would be my mother-in-law. Sometimes the rear window will fog when there are rear-seat passengers but never the windshield or side windows. I very rarely use the "defrost" mode. Even in the "footwell" mode, it seems like a lot of warm air comes out the defroster vents.
Now for the Navigator. GM still has the lead in HP with their Escalade. But you could easily (?) drop in the SC 5.4L from the Lightning and beef up the suspension (maybe with Lightning parts). Bye bye Escalade.
Now if Ford would just build the GT40 to compete with the Corvette and Viper..........
G35 - I is my understanding that the new G35 will be closer in size to the 330i & IS-300 than the LS. I could be wrong but I thought that's what it said in an Autoweek blurb on the G35 a while back.
Reviews - Wow, it looks like I got my C&D over a week before everyone else! C&D ususally does comparo. tests cars with cars of similar price. This totally misses the LS value proposition. For my primary driver I'm not interested in anything smaller than the LS. I test drove a 328i before I bought my LS and it is just plain too small for me especially considering its tiny trunk. So look at is this way: with the LS you get a 4 dr sedan as big as a 7 Series that costs less than a 330i, can pull more G's on a skid pad than either and handles almost as well as either. It may be slower than the 330i, but who cares I'm not planning on ever buying a 330i.
As long as there's 1 LS that works the way I think it should, I'm calling this a problem. Also, I found on mine that the cold air is also coming out of the defroster up by the windshield.
So, time for a call to my friendly service dept. They were going to call me this week anyway to tell me that the parts to seal up my headlamps are in. Yep, my 2001 headlamps fogged up over the holidays as we had a lot of cold/wet weather here. I've been waiting since before Xmas when I first called in. I called back last week and no one had ordered the parts though the service advisor had promised he would. Now the next guy promised last week it would be fixed this week but no call yet. Am I rambling? Am I happy?
Brian: So we're gonna have some cool toys at Mania 3? I can't wait to try out the GTechPro and the ExtremeGeez! I guess I better register soon, eh?
I'm looking forward to Mania 3 for other reasons too. I'm going to do something I've never done since I've been out here: Take a few days and drive to LA via the Coast Hiway - Rte 1 - and explore and photograph. What a blast rte 1 will be in the LS. That's one of the reasons I never did it before - the road is so twisty that it can get very tedious in a 'regular' car or SUV.
George
Yeah, I know. That's another of the reasons I've not done this yet! I'll keep your alternate rte in mind, but I'd realy like to go all the way down the coast, if only to see it and hopefully add to my marketable photographs. This is probably the time of year when there are the fewest RVs out there and besides, my LS will be able to get me out from behind some situations that I would have been stuck in were I driving my van or Jeep.
I'll have to find a good car wash in Irvine to get Red lookin her best for Mania 3. I'm hopin you and I could swap cars for a run so I can get a feel for what your mods have done for performance and you can recall what yours was like when stock! Though I understand if you'd prefer not to let another maniac drive your car - I might hit some cones or something! :>)
George
Regards,
Airwolf
The Escalade offers a bigger 6.0L engine (345hp/385ft-lb) but only in the AWD model, not in the 2wd. That engine is what is usually in all the ads.
Well, if you can afford an Escalade, what's a little gas mileage...
Topanga Canyon Road and Malibu Canyon Road both are nice drives with great scenery.
The real fun drive in my opinion is Mulholland Drive which runs from Malibu Canyon Road to Hollywood. Runs along the ridge road that separates West side of L.A. and the San Fernando Valley. On Sunday there are a lot of motorcycle heading to the roadhouse.
I used to race a Mini Cooper and a TR8 on that road when I was in high school, it is curves deluxe with great views.
see ya in Irvine!
steve_ca
LLSOC Member
If you take pictures you can put a great drive article together for the club magazine, if you would like!
Registering soon would be a good idea. The Doubletree hotel rates that we got for the club are only good until January 24th then the remaining rooms will be released to the general public. So if you're planning on going or even seriously thinking about it make sure you have your reservation at the hotel in. George, you may want to also post looking for a room buddy on the LLSOC board under the Mania 3 topic in case anyone else is so inclined.
Brian
Regards,
Airwolf
To me, the area under either the torque or HP curve would be a better metric to use in measuring usable engine output, and predicting vehicle performance.
It's unit of measure would be:
For HP: FT # Rev/Min^2
For Torque: Ft # Rev/Min
If adopted, the measure would show the difference between a 300 HP 4.3L engine, and a 300 HP nearly identical 4.0L engine.
Is such a metric now in use? If so, what's it called? If not in use, what do you think of it?
Gary
Charter LLSOC member
Haven't you heard? H. L. Menken (I think it was) said that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. A similar truism could be generated regarding the intelligence of the same group, but why bother. Lincoln introduced the LS in the face of this, and the jury's still out.
I live and breathe metrics and completely agree that your suggestions have merit. Now, do you really think the automotive press can: 1) understand what you're talking about or 2) use an actual measurement system that doesn't allow them to flog their: a) biggest advertiser or b) preconceived notions.
I'm with you, but I don't think many others are.
I strongly doubt there was anything unique about this problem for the V8 model. It was a very simple problem to fix, but very tricky to find (Thanks Laura Hazebrouck! (Lincoln engineeressa who designed the PATS)).
I think it's possible if they can "discover" it, if it can be given a catchy buzzword, and it demonstrates that it is a better output measure and performance predictor.
"Applied Horsepower", or "AHP" vs. peak horsepower comes to mind as a buzzword/buzzphrase that is descriptive, and could catch on. For an auto transmission vehicle I would use the area under the curve from torque converter stall speed to red line. But this has a problem ... a higher stall speed would likely out-accelerate one lower, but have less Applied Horsepower. This clearly needs work.
Maybe area under the curve from 0-60, 0-100, etc. In these cases, higher stall speed would also have more Applied HP, and better performance.
I'm getting an uneasy feeling that this isn't the proper forum for this discussion. If so, please jump in anyone. If possible, suggest an alternate forum. I feel strongly about this concept, and Steve's comments indicate that I'm not completely nuts ... (or we both are)
You could even normalize the Applied Horespower on cost, but that's another can of worms . . .
Also, they never seem to get much inside info from the people inside the car companies to verify their (mis)information or just ask "why".
Most of these articles are not even semi-techo. The average reader is probably able to understand a little more. Personally, I long for those very occasional tech articles in R&T.
Another problem with the product is what it does to the seats. The leather remains without a sheen but the vinal (bad spelling) shines. This simply lets everyone know what is leather and what is not.
One more point. I am 6'2" tall and the car is designed for people a little shorter. What can I do to remove the handle above my seat. My head keeps hitting it when I hit a bump or make a quick turn to the right. If I remove the handle, what do I do about the holes in the headliner.
Tony
I haven't really seen a "Automotive" publication that comes close to the level of technical integrity as the publications I cite above. If one exists, I hope someone would be kind enough to let me know.
You didn't so much make a mistake as learned a Lesson: With minimal effort and expense, you can do a much better job of caring for your car than the low-wage Detailing Professionals employed by the dealer.
Scott
LLSOC Member
Tony
Sorry this took so long to get, but here is what the dealers in Colorado are offering on new leases:
- No out of pocket expenses on drive away.
- They pay the first months payment.
- Very good money factors.
The quote I got, which was for a loaded sport V8 (very siumilar to my car when I got it 2 years ago), was 497.00 per month, which is 8 dollars a month less than I paid.
I looked at a 2002 in the showroom, and they really have made improvements, althought I didn't like the textured leather on the seats.
Brent
If the leather in the showroom car that you saw is different from yours, then I'd guess you were looking at a Premium package LS. The leather with that package is called "Nudo"; it has a sort of basket-weave pattern in the middle section of the seats. Premium comes with the Sport wheels and suspension, but it has the chrome/polished bumper strips and no SST shifter. (Moonroof is also included with Premium.)
The Sport and "regular" models still have the same leather (both pattern and colors) in '02 that they had the prior two years.
Good advice. I'm headed there as soon as I recover from installing a cooktop and built-in oven. (She made me do it)
It's probably payback for your faux-pas of a prior event
LLSOC would love to have this discussion on engineering metrics and other engineering discussions on our board. As a matter of fact I'll set up a new forum called Engineering Forum specifically to group this tantalizing discussion and highlight it.
Brian
LLSOC President
Brian
Yep.
Engineering forum sounds good. Before I go there, I have a request of the Edmunds' participants:
I need dyno data for engines, or cars run on chassis dyno. Ideally, for two or more engines that are different, but have similar HP output. The engines can be disguised as engine A & engine B. The output data can even be disguised by de-rating each point by the same percentage. I'll return the favor by calculating "Applied Horsepower", or something similar, & sending it to you for your comparison with known vehicle performance.
Torque or Horsepower, by RPM, in a format that can be read by Excel.
Also, I remember a regular here that has software that predicts vehicle performance, but I've lost his name. If listening, please send me an email at gary4444@chartermi.net
The more I think about performance metrics the more I believe that there is a much better one than peak HP or peak torque. Think about it: each of those metrics is stated at a SINGLE RPM for a device that has an operating range of ~500 to 6500 RPM. What's up with that? At best, they are very coarse measures for an automobile engine. Probably good measures for stationary engines,(What James Watt had when he created the horsepower metric) or even aircraft piston engines.
But those applications are a far cry the automotive application. I see evidence of the industry's frustration with these single-point measurements when I read statements like "it produces 90% of it's peak torque from 2000 RPM up"
I sense glassy eyes, so I'm done with this issue on this forum.
Please send data, or recommend a good source.
Last month my front brakes started to squeal on slow braking and the dealer mentioned that the wear indicators are already touching the rotors. Brake pads are on back order and will take around two weeks. I guess I can wait for them since it is under warranty. The dealer isn't sure if replacing the sport brake pads with the standard ones will void the warranty. They will let me know shortly.
Wes aka 'MSN LNC'
Out of 20 test vehicles, only three were from USA companies. Why? Because USA car companies would rather sink development dollars into SUV's/trucks rather than cars. That's why you don't have a 6 speed manual V8 LS with 300 HP or a 6 cylinder that can run with the foreign crowd; the bucks went into the new Explorer platform and the rear seats in the new Expedition and the Lincoln Blackwood.
GM kills the Camaro/Firebird, instead of correcting it's obvious deficiencies, and introduces a new line of trucks/suv's. Two American icons die.
BMW, Volvo, and Acura each bring one new SUV crossover to the market, while we design/build/market Silverado's, Explorers, Tahoes, Mountaineers, Expeditions, Navigators, Blackwoods, Escalades, Escapes, Escursions, Durangos, Lightnings, on and on and on.
Maybe, just maybe, the BMW's and Audi's are better cars, and all the automobile editors are not on the take, because the foreign dollars were spent building better cars, cars built for drivers, not SUV/truck products to beat the "other guy's" SUV/trucks.
You can't blame the US companies; they are building what most of us want. We can build cars as good or better than the foreign brands; we just don't want to.
Me? I wouldn't be caught dead driving an SUV, but, unfortunately, I'm in the minority.
I have nothing against SUVs but don't understand their appeal. I don't believe they're especially safe; when I see one off the road during a snowstorm, it's usually on it's side. When someone tells me their $40k "truck" drives and/or rides like a car, I reply, "Not a $40k car."
But, to each his, or her, own. And if Ford can make a pile of money selling Explorers and Navigators, they'll spend some of it on developing cars for those of us who prefer driving to riding.
My brakes (2000 Sport) started to squeal at around that mileage also, but the dealer diagnosed dirt and glazing. At 19K miles, there was only about 5K remaining.
I'm sorry that your window crashed after only 5 times of use, but those of us that attended LS Mania 3 learned from Lincoln engineers that the windows are less prone to crash if used more frequently. By the time yours are repaired, the "final fix" parts should be in the pipeline. Make sure that they fix both sides per TSB. Don't let them bamboozle you.
Artie
Charter Member-LLSOC
Let's try to think that maybe the billions in profits these things generated for Ford in the 90's provided the funding for the development of the LS.
I agree with you 100% about driving one. Unfortunately, many others have been "caught dead" driving one.
I haven't had a window failure (yet), but asked my dealer about the status of the new part. He said they already had them in stock and that was about a month ago.
stanny1, Edmunds already has a bunch of forums on how bad SUV's allegedly are. IMHO, drive what you want, where you want. Like scottc8 pointed out, we benefit a lot from the income from these things. Like a minivan, I wouldn't be caught dead owning one. However, if you want one, to each there own! High gas prices are an annoyance to me (one less trip to In-N-Out), but to most families here, they force radical lifestyle changes.
Mike
LLSOC Chapter Director
I bought my Expedition in October, 1997 (a 1998 model Eddie Bauer), because of a snow storm. Yeah, OK, I'm a wimp. See, it happened like this:
I spent 2 hours driving 19 miles trying to get home in my 1993 Mazda MX-6. I loved that car, but even with new tires on it I was just crawling along in a blizzard. I drove past a Ford dealership to get home, and I called my wife and told her I was going to stop and get a truck. She chewed me out, told me to do what I wanted, and then called a friend to complain that I had gone nuts. (Actually she was very supportive, and got a new couch for the family room a couple of weeks later). So, I pulled in to the dealership to buy an Expedition.
I got a great deal on a new truck. Waited about an hour, until they came in and told me they couldn't find it. I couldn't really blame them, because the now 16 inches of snow on the white SUV they were looking for made it, um, kinda disappear.
So, I went home. The next 6 miles took another 2 hours, and I ended up with my car not being able to pull its way up the driveway and into the garage. We had almost 3 feet of snow on the streets by morning. So, I didn't go anywhere for about 3 days.
When the storm was over, I went and picked up the truck, giving away my MX-6. We haven't had more than 3 inches of snow since.
The next day, my wife drove the Expedition for the first time, came home and told me she was keeping it and I could feel really good about driving the mini van. So I went a week later and leased a Continental (remember, the LS wasn't available yet, and 260 HP sounded good at the time).
So now I justify the thing by pulling a popup camper with it, and making sure my wife is safe driving the kids around in the midst of the other soccer moms. And on weekends, I go back to where trout just love to suck down dry flys.
So, overall, they have their place. And just because they aren't fast, and suck fuel, and don't handle well, and ... OK, I can't think of a reason to justify it right now, but I'll work on it.
The real benefit to the SUV, in hindsight, is that my wife likes to drive it, so I get to get things like Lincoln LS's and Jag X-Types. Which ain't all bad.
Brent