OK jerrym, you say tomAto, I say tomaato, we'll just have to disagree.
You seem to like full size cars. As they used to say, the wanabee boy racers drove Mustangs & Cameros, the dad's drove Impalla's and Galaxie' (LTD's) but the car guys drove Chevelles and Fairlanes (Torinos). You've matured into full size I'm stuck in mid size, which the LS fits. I'm just not a Panther fan. To me the Panther has been behind the times since the day it was introduced. My father had one of the last full size RWD Impalla's and as far as I was concerned it just plain stomped the Crown Vic in its day. Just was a far more responsive better feeling car. The Mass. & NY State Troopers felt so too as they sent their Caprice cruisers out to be completely rebuilt in order to get a few more years out of them as most of the troopers hated their CV's compared to the Chevy's. The troopers really liked the handling, comfort and especially the 5.7L Chevy motor compared to those anemic 200HP 4.6L mod motors. It's not just the handling, one would think that after 21 years they could have figured out how to keep the nose of the CV, GM & TC from diving into the pavement when you touch the brakes, but I guss that's not very important to the core TC drivers I see out on the roads that don't seem to go faster than 45 MPH and like to roll through stop signs. Some day Ford will replace the Panther will an all new rigid platform but until then I'm not interested.
You're right on a couple of points. When I was a kid my father had a 1955 Chevy 6 cyl, which was really still a 1950 Chevy which was really just a lightened truck frame with a car body on it. It rode like a truck because.... The one positive thing I can say about the '55 Chevy 6 was that it was fantastice car in the snow, but that's what 100 hp, 10" of ground clearance and skinny tires will do for you. It took only 5 years for the 6 cyl Chevy to clog up all its oil passages even with 3K mile oil changes (something the old stovebolt 6's were famous for) and 8 years for it to rust to the ground, but what do I know? 55 chevys are cult cars now.
In 1969 I would have killed for a Dan Gurney edition Mercury Cyclone GT 428, but kind of hard for a high school kid to afford. My first new car was a 1972 Gran Torino Sport fastback, 351C. Still have one today with a 4 speed.
In any case the LS fits the bill for me. It has every day practicality and luxury with lots of zoom - zoom in its soul. Kind of what I've been searching for since 1969, fast, precise and comfortable.
Wow. The political discussions on Lincoln/Ford are interesting, but thought some might be interested in some LS stuff. :-)
A couple of us have discussed a slight, but extremely annoying rattle in or around the B pillar (driver side) of our LS's. Mine started off slight, then has grown worse over the last several months. Occurs over rough road, but also sometimes on smooth road under the right conditions. Sometimes when I would accelerate or deaccelerate I can hear it. Also when Im pulling off from a dead stop to make a left turn, I can hear it pop a couple of times. Nervewracking. Sounds as if you dont have the door completely shut, but not as loud.
After removing door panels, checking the seat belt mechanism...everything under the sun. Looks like ive found the issue. I sat in the car, rolled down the drivers window, and then forcefully pulled and pushed back and forth on the actual door. (Pulling on the interior door panel pull area wont do it...you have to grab over the window channel area, to ensure you are pulling/pushing the entire door unit). Aha! The noise is there! Appears that the latch mechanism (which someone suggested a while back) could use an adjustment of some kind...to ensure the door is really, really tight when shut.
Last Thursday my A/C compressor gernaded itself. It sounded like marbles rolling around in the engine. I finally got my car back today and got to get rid of the Enterprise Park Avenue. What a boat! Dramamine should be issued with the purchase of that car! I think I finally have my land legs back!
Here's another area in which Ford needs to improve dramatically! The first compressor was sent incorrectly boxed (a V8 compressor in a V6 labeled box, also missing the clutch assembly). The second was fine. The hoses were also incorrectly marked and my tech could only flush the system (instead of replacing the necessary hoses), hoping to remove all the debris. He says I will probably have to have this done again due to the damage caused by the initial catastrophic failure. This (incorrectly marked parts) has happened before. It's not like the parts guys are duffuses and are ordering the wrong stuff. Maybe the guys in the warehouses need to be taught to read.
www.centerlinewheels.com has a 18x7.5 rotary forged wheel that has a net weight of about 14.5 lbs and has a 40mm offset. It's called a "RPM" model. You can get silver, black pearl, white or gold. Pricing can be obtained from Ultra Performance at 800-438-5872. All wheel manufacturers appear to suggerst a FWD application for the LS because of the offset. Brian's BBS Volvo wheel has a 42mm offset.
I stopped by a local dealership today to take a look at the '03 Town Car & happened to see an LS in the new Silver Birch color. This replaced Silver Frost a couple of months ago. I don't know if it was the ambient light conditions, but it seemed to have just the slightest hint of gold; reminds me of the way Parchment Gold sometimes looks silvery, depending on the light. I'm not a big fan of silver, but this was an interesting color on the LS--looked very nice.
Now for a quick rant: This dealer (who's been mentioned on this forum in the past) had a Vibrant Red Sport in front of the showroom. In addition to the $899 rear wing, it had a dealer-added wood kit. The kit consisted of trim pieces for the 3 A/C vents on the dash, the 4 window switch panels, and the climate control system. The price? Also $899! I was astonished; my kit, with the same basic pieces, cost about $150 from Exotic, IIRC, and I think it's even cheaper now. I installed it myself in just a couple of hours. It always amazes (and REALLY annoys) me when dealers do this stuff. This car also had a "protection package" and window tint; these 4 items jacked up the sticker by about $2500. Sheesh.
Next to this LS were a couple of Town Cars with "carriage" roofs, chrome wheels, Vogue "tyres", and assorted other junk to the tune of $6k-$7k per car. At least I've never seen them put a top on an LS...
First of all, I screwed up; the color is called Vivid Red, not Vibrant Red. (Shame on me. ) It was only in production for about a month-- January, I think--so it was only used on a limited number of cars; IIRC, it's a $295 option.
I don't believe there was any restriction on the dealerships that they went to, though. This particular store is a large metropolitan dealer that usually has anywhere from 20 to 50 LSs in stock at any given time; since it's near my house, I go there to cruise the lot fairly often. I've seen several Vivid Red cars there; I imagine it's due to this dealer's volume. It's a REALLY nice color, and I hope it's in the lineup in future years.
<<<<<<Now for a quick rant: This dealer (who's been mentioned on this forum in the past) had a Vibrant Red Sport in front of the showroom. In addition to the $899 rear wing, it had a dealer-added wood kit. The kit consisted of trim pieces for the 3 A/C vents on the dash, the 4 window switch panels, and the climate control system. The price? Also $899! I was astonished; my kit, with the same basic pieces, cost about $150 from Exotic, IIRC, and I think it's even cheaper now. I installed it myself in just a couple of hours. It always amazes (and REALLY annoys) me when dealers do this stuff. This car also had a "protection package" and window tint; these 4 items jacked up the sticker by about $2500. Sheesh.>>>>>>>
I saw the same "installed" wood stuff at one dealer I shopped at. Dealers use this stuff such as "gold" packages with extreem mark ups to allow big didcounts without really giving a big discount. I had a Honda salesman tell me that the cost of one of those "gold" packages that they charge $500 for only costs them $35. Worst example I ever saw was at a dealer in N. Va who had a Town Car on the floor with just about every dumb dealer installed package you could imagine on this car. They totaled over $5,000. Even the tires had been changed to some gold diamond pattern sidewall. It was obvious that it was a pimpmobile.
A Chicago Lincoln dealer is advertising a $419, 36 mo. lease on a 2002 LS V-8 with 0 down, 0 security deposit. No list price or residual was shown in the ad. The cheapest before this weekend was $449 mo. about 2 months ago with $479 or $499 the norm. This has to be a great value for a new LS. Guess Lincoln marketing has realized how great the 2003 LS will be and are trying to clear the pipelines of 2002's before 2003 introduction. I wonder if there are new dealer incentives?
That is a good deal! I have a 3 year Red Carpet Lease on a price of $32,800 for a 2000 V-6 Manual. It's $475 a month, not $419 for a 2002 V-8 with maintainence included. So the 2002 LS is quite a deal. My own opinion is that the 2003 will be closer to $40,000 or more with options. If there is no raise in MSRP, the 2003 will be a great value.
In the NY City market area (includes Northern NJ, Long Island, Southeastern NY and Southwestern CT) Lincoln is running a lot of TV ads promoting $399 / mo. for a V8 LS NY special, which I think includes the moon roof. I haven't paid much attention to the details but I think its $12K miles a year with $2K down up front.
I've probably seen more LS ads on TV in the last 2 weeks than I did in the previous 2 years.
I was reading my local newspaper's automobile secton over the weekend. They were discussing the management shake-up at Ford. One of the Ford people was quoted as saying that the main competition is Cadillac, as "There are a lot of people who prefer to buy American." They still don't get it.....American, yes, but SPORTY also!!
When I ordered my V8 sport in August 99 nobody had yet purchased any of the aftermarket wud kits and exotic wanted $75 restocking fee if I didn't like their kit. The dealer had one on the lot done by a local company that looked great (probably the exotic kit) so I had them do it just to be safe. IIRC it cost me $399, not $800 although I think the sticker price was close to $800. I would have done it myself if I had been able to verify that the exotic kit looked the same.
Furniture (and interior auto cloth seats) protection has a similar markup. We used to buy the chemicals 5 gallons at a time and spray it on in just a few minutes. It does work as advertised and lasts longer than Scothguard (and came with a 3 year warranty). I even got a paper towel to hold a cup of water without leaking. It only cost us about $3 to spray a sofa but we'd charge anywhere from $35-$75.
I never, ever buy any type of dealer add-on packages. They're almost always a rip-off.
Uhh Ohh. Maybe the rejoicing (including me) is premature regarding Reitzle's departure. Today's WSJ reports:..."By putting Lincoln-Mercury back under the North American umbrella and giving Mr. (Jim) O'Conner the job of North American marketing czar, Mr. (Nick) Scheele said Ford can formulate strategy in its critical home market ""more holistically."" Mr. Scheele said he wants to better integrate pricing and cost-cutting moves across the Ford, Mercury and Lincoln brands to stop the company's market-share losses. As part of the realignment, Ford appears to be moving away from its efforts to position Lincoln as a brand that competes head-on with Mercedes, BMW and Lexus imports, not just cross-town Detroit rival Cadillac. ""Lincoln-let's face it-appeals to drivers who are truly desirous of an American product, and its natural competitor is and it always has been Cadillac."" Mr. Scheele said. ""There are domestic buyers and import buyers, and the crossover is relatively modest."" While Lincoln engineers and designers are aiming to give the brand's new vehicles more precise steering and handling, Mr. Scheele said more important for Lincoln will be its ability to deliver an ""unruffled, relaxed"" drive with the kind of ""interior comfort and convenience" unavailable in some imported luxury vehicles..."
Mr. Scheele: Please, please, please do not de-content the LS. It has world class engineering, suspension, engine etc. and provides a better value than the aforementioned imports at a $10,000-$25,000 savings. The solution to increase LS sales is MARKETING. Do not include the LS in ads with Navigator or Town Car. The target audience is completely different. With the 2003 LS to be introduced shortly, you will now have the LS that many buyers will want if they just know about it and consider it in their buying decision. BMW, Mercedes and Lexus all advertise separately by model range, because the target buyers are different. Try to develop a separate LS campaign with a performance/handling/feature-value theme, coordinate with print and electronic media and repeat consistently for a year. I am confident that proper marketing can susbstantially increase LS sales. We LS owners only want many more buyers to discover the joy of driving an LS.
In a recent visit to my selling dealership - Murray Ford/Mercury/Lincoln - they had ZERO LS's on the Lot - None, Nada. Matter of fact, the had about 1 Navigator, 1 Conti (used) and maybe 2 towncars.
No wonder the LS sales are down - who would ever buy something that you can't see, touch or test drive? I wouldn't!
I would think that they should at least have one model of each there. (I was actually there 3 different times within a week span and never saw an LS on the lot, but mine.)
I too saw this article and was disturbed at what I read. Particularly the quote attributed to Nick Scheele stating Lincoln's "natural competitor" was Cadillac and that there was little crossover between import and domestic customers. What a load of bunk! That's the kind of mentality that will cause me to shop elsewhere in the future. I own my 2000 LS8 Sport outright, and I'm not planning on replacing it for a few more years yet (I'll wait to see what the '05 LS MY brings), but I NEVER considered a Cadillac, or any other American product for that matter before I got my LS. Quite the contrary, I test drove BMW, Audi, Acura, and Infiniti. My previous vehicles were almost all Japanese, with the exception of am '86 Jeep Cherokee that made me wish I had never bought an American product.
Let's face it, competition is competition whether it comes from the cross-town rival or from somewhere overseas. Lincoln had better realize that once and for all if they hope to survive after their traditional Town Car clientele can't drive any longer . . .
Ford realizes that the foreign sports sedan, domestic SUV "follow the herd" mentality is too hard to reverse, even with an excellent product.
So, they bring Jag down with the "X" while raising the other end with the "R", deciding that Jag has a better chance against other foreign brands. Then they go after the affordable (??), non competitive (for now), full size performance sedan market with the Marauder, and the high end with the big Jag sedans.
With Ford's overall problems, who's to say that this is a bad strategy, especially if Ford feels that the sports sedan market is too tough to crack and needs to sink big research dollars into the real money maker-the SUV?
But, with Caddy the bonafide target, how does Ford offer a challenge to the rumored CTS 400 HP car? Jag S-R?
LS future enhancements may now depend on the CTS market acceptance.
Maybe Mercury will be the brand to battle with the imports. At least it won't have the old geezer stigma that Lincoln has (or at least not as much). Rebadge the LS as a Merc to go along with the Marauder. Since most dealerships are L/M anyway all that would change is the name. Note the article only mentioned Lincoln, not Mercury. Lincoln could sell a stretched version of the LS tuned for comfort and "travelling well" while Mercury gets the all out performance version. Add a Merc version of the Mondeo or a DEW98-Lite based smaller sedan to go head to head with the A4 and 3-series.
The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Which probably means it will never happen......
Out of the frying pan (Wolfgang's pro-european bias) and into the fire (Scheele's bias towards traditional American luxury cars).
This weekend, I was once again stopped by someone who had no idea of what the LS was. This after almost 4 years on the market. Unbelievable. No, I take that back, very believable. Ford needs to learn how to spend marketing money beyond that initial six month launch window.
Mr. Scheele said more important for Lincoln will be its ability to deliver an ""unruffled, relaxed"" drive with the kind of "interior comfort and convenience" unavailable in some imported luxury vehicles..."
Artie, would you call the drive we did up to Sedona "relaxed"? What about the autocross experience at Fontana, CA? While I wasn't "ruffled", my adrenaline levels put me in a state somewhat higher than "relaxed".
These comments attributed to Mr. Scheele are downright scarey to an LS enthusiast!
I've just lost a lot of respect for Mr. Scheele. It demonstrates how out of touch he and a lot of people at Lincoln are.
Before I leased my LS I test drove 11 cars. Only 2 of the 11 were American. One of the 2 was the LS.
My worst fears are confirmed. A flagging Ford division (Lincoln) with sales down almost 20% last year has decided to focus its energies chasing a flagging GM division (Cadillac). This sort of mentality got Lincoln to where it is. Traditional Lincoln and Cadillac customers are dissappearing and their replacements are no longer content with lame underperforming & ill handling cars.
I have never owned an import although 2 years ago I almost got one. The LS kept me buying American. Looks like I no longer fit the right mindset for Ford marketing. If the LS gets wimped out Ford will have lost me for a customer for good.
From the sounds of things, the LS is likely to become a collector car ala the Shelby Mustang GT 500.
No wonder few know what a special car the Lincoln LS is. On one side of the Corporate Culture, you have gear heads touting Lincoln DNA and on the other side you have executives longing for padded soft tops.
Driving Well in my American Luxury-Lincoln Performance one of kind collector car.
So what's so incompatible? One brand can have performance and luxury automobiles at once. Scheele seems to want to put Lincoln in the luxury box. But BMW caters to a wide audience. They even have ML320 and 7 series owners think they have performance cars. Lincoln can also be all things to all people. It's largely a matter of perception. Old guys can buy non-sport LSes and drive them satisfactorily as appliances. They won't bite. We can take the same car and run Solo2. Just build a capable car and the customer will drive it to his abilities. Please, Scheele, don't put a cap on the car's capabities and potential. I'm only 53 and not a "luxury" customer yet. I'd like my coffin to be soft but it's too early for me to drive one.
Nick Scheele says Lincoln needs to compete with its natural foe, Cadillac. Doesn't Cadillac intend to compete with MB, Lexus, BMW, etc? So it seems nothing will change with Lincoln, except that Scheele said " Lincoln-Mercury is to focus more heavily on using base Ford division platforms in development of future products."
How the heck will Lincoln compete with all the RWD competition when it is selling a bunch of tarted up Tauri? I have just written off Lincoln. Oh well, I hope Caddy has the guts to stick to their vision for at least a decade and becomes the best luxury-performance car company on earth.
I just put on the Porterfield brake pads (front only - don't have the special tool yet for the rear). Oh my! It's a good thing I had my seat belt on when I hit the brake pedal or my head would be sticking out through the windshield. The stopping power is phenomenal to say the least. And the constant squealing is history. Original pads were totally shot after 24K. Only took 15 minutes per wheel (and 30 minutes with the orange cleaner to get the brake dust off of me!)
Still have a little bit of vibration but it's intermittent. I'll go ahead and replace the rotors next - they were turned once by the dealer and I think they're too thin.
At the LLSOC discount prices the Porterfield's seem like a great investment. I highly recommend them.
I hope you're right on this Artie . . . hopefully this is nothing more than just poor word choice on the part of executives that aren't usually the ones to speak out about such things as market demographics and ad campaigns. It's just unfortunate that these executives still have the old, sterotypical customer in mind when they do speak out, and goes to show that "change" is difficult to accomplish.
I never considered Cadillac when I went looking for a replacement car. I started out looking for a MK VIII but quickly decided it was getting dated and started considering a BMW, Lexus or an LS. Wife's opinions were a big factor in desision making process since she would be driving the car every day on the road with a new job. I drive a company car. Wife did not want a brand that would give the impression she had a big head. I didn't like BMW dealer attitude. I drove an LS and it was the best thing on wheels I have driven in 20 years. Silver V8 Sport. No problems.
Great link outlining Lincoln's new plan. At least future Mania events can still be held in Irvine, as LM headquaters will remain there. The rest of the article was quite disappointing, and seems to imply that Lincoln will not be focused on the new demographic that the LS attracted. Time will tell, as the LS is truly a drivers car unlike the rest of Lincoln's line-up. If Ford Motor Company executives want to narrowly define their competition as Cadillac, they ultimately resign themselves to the same fate as Oldsmobile, as GM "just doesn't get it" either.
Part of what sold me on the LS was that Lincoln came out and stated that they needed to change. I, for one, do not want to associate myself with a "stuffy" or "stodgy" old brand image, which is what Lincoln used to (and will again) represent. These latest moves now represent a complete reversal of fortune. Too bad.
Why is everyone assuming negative things with the realignment ? Geez, for the last two weeks everything has been "woe is me". I prefer to look at this as a good thing. Here's why:
1. It frees Lincoln to be whatever customers expect of American Luxury. This time it's not a means to "brand" Lincoln differently within PAG. This time it's what will sell vehicles.
2. To say Lincoln will move away from cars that are fun to drive is premature. Granted, the line may become more Lexus-like than BMW-like but if Cadillac is moving towards BMW, then Lincoln by default moves towards BMW.
3. The LS was designed when it was part of this North American structure. Why can't future Lincolns be done as well using the same structure ?
4. Americans are now in charge of the American brand. Look at what Toyota has done once they put Americans in charge of their US development (I think this was in an Autoweek article or Car&Driver). The executives we have met through LLSOC are still there and just as committed. I would bet they get more management attention now than the last 3 years.
5. Lincoln has a special association with the Ford family, something Wolfgang didn't care about.
6. The Mark VII and VIII were developed without PAG and used Ford platforms.
7. The whole auto industry is in a horsepower war. Lincoln and Cadillac participated in that war in the past but in subtle ways (500 cubic inch Caddy motor if I recall).
8. Torque is an American god.
9. I would bet the 2005 LS is already locked in.
10. Ford needs Lincoln to succeed much more so than PAG needed Licoln to succeed.
How clueless are these people about who their competition is?
If they want to know who their competition is on the luxury side, they better look at Lexus, not Cadillac. No car company today does "luxury" better than Lexus and the word is starting to spread to the older generation. More and more, I see elderly people driving around in LS400's and 430's who previously probably only owned Caddy's and Lincolns. The only people who are still buying TC's are the die hard FoMoCo people who have never owned anything but Ford products, and those people are obviously starting to look elsewhere as well.
Why would you want to compete against a company that is doing poor sales currently as it is? Do they think that Cadillac has some great vision of the future and that they are going to start dominating the market? Yeah right. Cadillac is stuck in the same hole as they are catering only to GM loyalists and losing everyone else.
Until the LS, I would never have even considered a Lincoln because of the "old" image it conotates. I still get people giving me strange looks when I tell them I drive a Lincoln (and of course they still don't know what an LS is and assume it is some variation of a TC or Conti). The Navigator is curently the ONLY Lincoln that John Q. Public would relate to being a non-old persons' vehicle.
And although I like the Navigator, it is too big a vehicle for me so out of all of their current offerings, the only one I would consider buying is the LS. The upcoming Aviator might attract me as a repeat Lincoln buyer (I know my wife loves them), but if they start catering to what they think the older generation wants in a vehicle, then they will probably lose this 30-year old as a repeat customer.
I am not sure why this turn of events has some so disappointed. The LS was an excellent effort when introduced and the 2003 is going to be even better. In four years, it hasn't done all that much for Lincoln's image, though. How many potential buyers have said, "Hmmm...I want a nameplate that is part of PAG."
As for seeing Cadillac as the competition, what's wrong with that? Although FWD, the current DeVille line-up is far more enthusiast oriented than the Town Car. The current Seville (due for replacement with a RWD model) is light-years ahead of the the defunct Continental. Granted, the Catera was a joke but the CTS is plenty competitive with the V6 LS.
Many of us bought the LS because it offered that elusive combination of luxury, handling, performance and feel at a price that beat the imports. Why do we think seeing Cadillac as the major competitor will destroy that?
..."Lincoln's once-ambitious offensive has been reduced to a peashooter fight with Cadillac over luxury scraps: The shrinking, aging corps of loyalists who won't set foot in a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus."
Make no mistake, I'm NOT disappointed with my LS. Quite the contrary, my LS has exceeded my expectations and has been the perfect vehicle for me over the past 2 years of ownership.
What disappoints me is the new direction that Lincoln is taking as expressed by key Ford Motor Company executives. The problem with considering Cadillac as the major competitor is that it's already an irrelevant brand. Considering the CTS is the closest thing to the LS that Cadillac builds, and the fact that it's inferior (because it's plain ugly, has no V8, et. al.) implies that Lincoln won't have to do anything to "remain competitive". Unfortunately, the sport-luxury market is comprised of many other (relevant) brands that offer more compelling examples of "value" and just happen to be import/foreign. These import brands will continue to compete with everyone else and improve, while Lincoln will compete with Cadillac and fade away into oblivion.
According to an Autoweek article, we may soon wish Wolfgang was still around and influencing Lincoln.
They say the S-type with a six speed would not have happened without him. He was furious with the killing of a Lincoln 3-series fighter, etc. The new S-type will be based on a Ford platform (LS ?)
As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for.
Ford article link in Car News - can't post full URL.
it's somewhat comforting to learn that I'm not the only reason this board goes ballistic when it becomes even more apparent that the Ford Motor Corporation doesn't have a clue what to do with the LS. . .or wishes it didn't exist.
I've not posted in several days. Others have. Maybe it's not just me.
Merkur. . .or not. I guess this new crowd gets to choose.
Actually, I always liked both models, the XR4ti and the Scorpio.
Anyway - there is no way a new S-type or LS is going to be made on a radically different platform than the current one - just too costly. Whether they juggle model names, brands or whatever, it will be around somewhere. And I don't think we will have to travel to Europe to buy it. Though I am sure we could travel there WELL...
Sometimes I smile as I read this board because it is a sounding board for a lot of opinions and assumptions and that's okay. But, working for a major manufacturer in a sales/marketing role right now, I am more apt to take a wait and see position on the goings on with Lincoln. We are always inclined to share less and then when we do share, only on a need to know basis because more comes back to burn you in any number of ways, shareholders, competition, present and future customers.
Do the managers at lincoln read this board, I would bet they do. I read boards related to my company very often and find them quite interesting to those that are right and wrong. But we can't comment about heresay one way or the other. I will bet the managers at Lincoln are smiling about how many of us posting negatives about their direction will be proven wrong.
Have a little faith, the LS platform, which is in the Jag and the T-bird, has a lot of credebility and forums like this and LLSOC are being heard. They just cannot comment about it. So the posting is worthwhile, but just give the folks at Lincoln a little more credit. Having been to Mania II, I can vouch like others have that they are a passionate group to make a car that stands out in the crowd, not just another appliance. The first test is right around the corner, the 2003 and Mania III folk are sure it will impress.
Buried in one of the many articles about PAG & Reitzle was that the press is invited to Santa Rosa CA next week to preview the 2003 Lincoln models, including Town Car, Navigator, Aviator and most important the LS. The timing of these previews are usually done to accommodate the monthly car rag publishing schedules, so expect to see info in the July issues. Shorter fuse rags such as Autoweek generally are coerced to not publish the info until the monthly rags go to press. The article listed the planned into dates for the 4 models with the 2003 being the last to be introduced with a November target date.
Although there is a lot of consternation about this whole Reitzle thing, I believe that most people in Ford's car groups realize that Ford car sales have been in the doldrums because Ford has offered precious few exciting and desirable cars and understand that this has to change. Hopefully Billy Jr & Jimmy O' will keep the bean counters at bay and deliver what Ford so desperately needs in car product.
I got the impression that they're only seeing the TC and navigator next week, with the LS & aviator to follow at some indeterminate time. (Interesting that you said Santa Rosa-my brother lives there).
Here's the quote:
"Coincidentally, the automotive media head to Santa Barbara, Calif., next week to test the critical new Lincoln Navigator and Town Car. Next up, the Aviator sport-utility and reworked LS sedan"
Who knows what they meant? Even if it's not next week, it can't be too far behind. July sounds about right.
Artie-signing off now to watch the "Osbournes" on MTV-funniest show ever on TV. Who'd a thunk it?
Well, I finally found a socket for my torque wrench that will fit the lugs. I had to use a 20mm 6-pt socket and it works fine. Interesting that my 4-way lug wrench has both 19mm and 3/4" sockets and both fit just fine, but the regular socket versions of those (6-pt) simply don't fit.
I loosened and retorqued each lug nut one at a time to 95 ft/lbs. The intermittent vibration is almost gone now. The rotors were still hot when I did it last night (didn't have time to let them cool) so I'll redo it when they're cold. The rotors may actually be slightly warped and need to be replaced or turned again, but hand torquing appears to be the key.
Have driven the LS, BMW , Audi. Am I allowed to say anything negative about any of the 3? I noticed in earlier posts that Host Pat censors certain posts.
Warren makes a great point about lincoln and lincoln family of products. I quote" BMW buyers tend to remain BMW buyers because they can move up the model ladder without losing anything in terms of performance or that very special BMW feel. The same is not true for Lincoln. It is doubtful, for instance, that a driver who has enjoyed the thrills of an LS V-6 or V-8 will find identical or more satisfaction in a lumbering Lincoln Town Car or Continental or in huge, overstuffed, cumbersome sport-utility models such as the Lincoln Blackwood (SUV/pickup) or Lincoln Navigator.
That means, as the Lincoln line is currently constituted, the LS buyer has nowhere else to go within the Lincoln family. "
Maybe Wolfgang had some good ideas when he wanted a new larger LS platform?
Comments
You seem to like full size cars. As they used to say, the wanabee boy racers drove Mustangs & Cameros, the dad's drove Impalla's and Galaxie' (LTD's) but the car guys drove Chevelles and Fairlanes (Torinos). You've matured into full size I'm stuck in mid size, which the LS fits. I'm just not a Panther fan. To me the Panther has been behind the times since the day it was introduced. My father had one of the last full size RWD Impalla's and as far as I was concerned it just plain stomped the Crown Vic in its day. Just was a far more responsive better feeling car. The Mass. & NY State Troopers felt so too as they sent their Caprice cruisers out to be completely rebuilt in order to get a few more years out of them as most of the troopers hated their CV's compared to the Chevy's. The troopers really liked the handling, comfort and especially the 5.7L Chevy motor compared to those anemic 200HP 4.6L mod motors. It's not just the handling, one would think that after 21 years they could have figured out how to keep the nose of the CV, GM & TC from diving into the pavement when you touch the brakes, but I guss that's not very important to the core TC drivers I see out on the roads that don't seem to go faster than 45 MPH and like to roll through stop signs. Some day Ford will replace the Panther will an all new rigid platform but until then I'm not interested.
You're right on a couple of points. When I was a kid my father had a 1955 Chevy 6 cyl, which was really still a 1950 Chevy which was really just a lightened truck frame with a car body on it. It rode like a truck because.... The one positive thing I can say about the '55 Chevy 6 was that it was fantastice car in the snow, but that's what 100 hp, 10" of ground clearance and skinny tires will do for you. It took only 5 years for the 6 cyl Chevy to clog up all its oil passages even with 3K mile oil changes (something the old stovebolt 6's were famous for) and 8 years for it to rust to the ground, but what do I know? 55 chevys are cult cars now.
In 1969 I would have killed for a Dan Gurney edition Mercury Cyclone GT 428, but kind of hard for a high school kid to afford. My first new car was a 1972 Gran Torino Sport fastback, 351C. Still have one today with a 4 speed.
In any case the LS fits the bill for me. It has every day practicality and luxury with lots of zoom - zoom in its soul. Kind of what I've been searching for since 1969, fast, precise and comfortable.
A couple of us have discussed a slight, but extremely annoying rattle in or around the B pillar (driver side) of our LS's. Mine started off slight, then has grown worse over the last several months. Occurs over rough road, but also sometimes on smooth road under the right conditions. Sometimes when I would accelerate or deaccelerate I can hear it. Also when Im pulling off from a dead stop to make a left turn, I can hear it pop a couple of times. Nervewracking. Sounds as if you dont have the door completely shut, but not as loud.
After removing door panels, checking the seat belt mechanism...everything under the sun. Looks like ive found the issue. I sat in the car, rolled down the drivers window, and then forcefully pulled and pushed back and forth on the actual door. (Pulling on the interior door panel pull area wont do it...you have to grab over the window channel area, to ensure you are pulling/pushing the entire door unit). Aha! The noise is there! Appears that the latch mechanism (which someone suggested a while back) could use an adjustment of some kind...to ensure the door is really, really tight when shut.
Ill try adjusting the striker plate tomorrow.
YMMV
Here's another area in which Ford needs to improve dramatically! The first compressor was sent incorrectly boxed (a V8 compressor in a V6 labeled box, also missing the clutch assembly). The second was fine. The hoses were also incorrectly marked and my tech could only flush the system (instead of replacing the necessary hoses), hoping to remove all the debris. He says I will probably have to have this done again due to the damage caused by the initial catastrophic failure. This (incorrectly marked parts) has happened before. It's not like the parts guys are duffuses and are ordering the wrong stuff. Maybe the guys in the warehouses need to be taught to read.
Anyway, my LS is back where it belongs!
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member and Chapter Director
Now for a quick rant: This dealer (who's been mentioned on this forum in the past) had a Vibrant Red Sport in front of the showroom. In addition to the $899 rear wing, it had a dealer-added wood kit. The kit consisted of trim pieces for the 3 A/C vents on the dash, the 4 window switch panels, and the climate control system. The price? Also $899! I was astonished; my kit, with the same basic pieces, cost about $150 from Exotic, IIRC, and I think it's even cheaper now. I installed it myself in just a couple of hours. It always amazes (and REALLY annoys) me when dealers do this stuff. This car also had a "protection package" and window tint; these 4 items jacked up the sticker by about $2500. Sheesh.
Next to this LS were a couple of Town Cars with "carriage" roofs, chrome wheels, Vogue "tyres", and assorted other junk to the tune of $6k-$7k per car. At least I've never seen them put a top on an LS...
JLinc, shaking his head and muttering
I don't believe there was any restriction on the dealerships that they went to, though. This particular store is a large metropolitan dealer that usually has anywhere from 20 to 50 LSs in stock at any given time; since it's near my house, I go there to cruise the lot fairly often. I've seen several Vivid Red cars there; I imagine it's due to this dealer's volume. It's a REALLY nice color, and I hope it's in the lineup in future years.
I saw the same "installed" wood stuff at one dealer I shopped at. Dealers use this stuff such as "gold" packages with extreem mark ups to allow big didcounts without really giving a big discount. I had a Honda salesman tell me that the cost of one of those "gold" packages that they charge $500 for only costs them $35. Worst example I ever saw was at a dealer in N. Va who had a Town Car on the floor with just about every dumb dealer installed package you could imagine on this car. They totaled over $5,000. Even the tires had been changed to some gold diamond pattern sidewall. It was obvious that it was a pimpmobile.
So the 2002 LS is quite a deal.
My own opinion is that the 2003 will be closer to $40,000 or more with options. If there is no raise in MSRP, the 2003 will be a great value.
I've probably seen more LS ads on TV in the last 2 weeks than I did in the previous 2 years.
One of the Ford people was quoted as saying that the main competition is Cadillac, as "There are a lot of people who prefer to buy American." They still don't get it.....American, yes, but SPORTY also!!
Furniture (and interior auto cloth seats) protection has a similar markup. We used to buy the chemicals 5 gallons at a time and spray it on in just a few minutes. It does work as advertised and lasts longer than Scothguard (and came with a 3 year warranty). I even got a paper towel to hold a cup of water without leaking. It only cost us about $3 to spray a sofa but we'd charge anywhere from $35-$75.
I never, ever buy any type of dealer add-on packages. They're almost always a rip-off.
Today's WSJ reports:..."By putting Lincoln-Mercury back under the North American umbrella and giving Mr. (Jim) O'Conner the job of North American marketing czar, Mr. (Nick) Scheele said Ford can formulate strategy in its critical home market ""more holistically."" Mr. Scheele said he wants to better integrate pricing and cost-cutting moves across the Ford, Mercury and Lincoln brands to stop the company's market-share losses.
As part of the realignment, Ford appears to be moving away from its efforts to position Lincoln as a brand that competes head-on with Mercedes, BMW and Lexus imports, not just cross-town Detroit rival Cadillac.
""Lincoln-let's face it-appeals to drivers who are truly desirous of an American product, and its natural competitor is and it always has been Cadillac."" Mr. Scheele said. ""There are domestic buyers and import buyers, and the crossover is relatively modest."" While Lincoln engineers and designers are aiming to give the brand's new vehicles more precise steering and handling, Mr. Scheele said more important for Lincoln will be its ability to deliver an ""unruffled, relaxed"" drive with the kind of ""interior comfort and convenience" unavailable in some imported luxury vehicles..."
Mr. Scheele: Please, please, please do not de-content the LS. It has world class engineering, suspension, engine etc. and provides a better value than the aforementioned imports at a $10,000-$25,000 savings. The solution to increase LS sales is MARKETING. Do not include the LS in ads with Navigator or Town Car. The target audience is completely different. With the 2003 LS to be introduced shortly, you will now have the LS that many buyers will want if they just know about it and consider it in their buying decision. BMW, Mercedes and Lexus all advertise separately by model range, because the target buyers are different. Try to develop a separate LS campaign with a performance/handling/feature-value theme, coordinate with print and electronic media and repeat consistently for a year. I am confident that proper marketing can susbstantially increase LS sales. We LS owners only want many more buyers to discover the joy of driving an LS.
No wonder the LS sales are down - who would ever buy something that you can't see, touch or test drive? I wouldn't!
I would think that they should at least have one model of each there. (I was actually there 3 different times within a week span and never saw an LS on the lot, but mine.)
Let's face it, competition is competition whether it comes from the cross-town rival or from somewhere overseas. Lincoln had better realize that once and for all if they hope to survive after their traditional Town Car clientele can't drive any longer . . .
So, they bring Jag down with the "X" while raising the other end with the "R", deciding that Jag has a better chance against other foreign brands.
Then they go after the affordable (??), non competitive (for now), full size performance sedan market with the Marauder, and the high end with the big Jag sedans.
With Ford's overall problems, who's to say that this is a bad strategy, especially if Ford feels that the sports sedan market is too tough to crack and needs to sink big research dollars into the real money maker-the SUV?
But, with Caddy the bonafide target, how does Ford offer a challenge to the rumored CTS 400 HP car? Jag S-R?
LS future enhancements may now depend on the CTS market acceptance.
The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Which probably means it will never happen......
This weekend, I was once again stopped by someone who had no idea of what the LS was. This after almost 4 years on the market. Unbelievable. No, I take that back, very believable. Ford needs to learn how to spend marketing money beyond that initial six month launch window.
=traveling well, no?
Now I'm really nervous
Thanks!
Pat
Sedans Host
These comments attributed to Mr. Scheele are downright scarey to an LS enthusiast!
Before I leased my LS I test drove 11 cars. Only 2 of the 11 were American. One of the 2 was the LS.
My worst fears are confirmed. A flagging Ford division (Lincoln) with sales down almost 20% last year has decided to focus its energies chasing a flagging GM division (Cadillac). This sort of mentality got Lincoln to where it is. Traditional Lincoln and Cadillac customers are dissappearing and their replacements are no longer content with lame underperforming & ill handling cars.
I have never owned an import although 2 years ago I almost got one. The LS kept me buying American. Looks like I no longer fit the right mindset for Ford marketing. If the LS gets wimped out Ford will have lost me for a customer for good.
No wonder few know what a special car the Lincoln LS is. On one side of the Corporate Culture, you have gear heads touting Lincoln DNA and on the other side you have executives longing for padded soft tops.
Driving Well in my American Luxury-Lincoln Performance one of kind collector car.
and drive them satisfactorily as appliances. They won't bite. We can take the same car and run Solo2. Just build a capable car and the customer will drive it to his abilities.
Please, Scheele, don't put a cap on the car's capabities and potential. I'm only 53 and not a "luxury" customer yet. I'd like my coffin to be soft but it's too early for me to drive one.
Just my opinion.
How the heck will Lincoln compete with all the RWD competition when it is selling a bunch of tarted up Tauri? I have just written off Lincoln. Oh well, I hope Caddy has the guts to stick to their vision for at least a decade and becomes the best luxury-performance car company on earth.
Still have a little bit of vibration but it's intermittent. I'll go ahead and replace the rotors next - they were turned once by the dealer and I think they're too thin.
At the LLSOC discount prices the Porterfield's seem like a great investment. I highly recommend them.
I hope this is just a big misunderstanding on all our parts.
I'd like them to elaborate on just what interior comfort and convenience is unavailable in some imported luxury vehicles.
The good: Lincoln will share platforms with Ford, Jaguar, Volvo and Mazda
The bad: the competition is now Cadillac, not the imports
The ugly: CTS
Part of what sold me on the LS was that Lincoln came out and stated that they needed to change. I, for one, do not want to associate myself with a "stuffy" or "stodgy" old brand image, which is what Lincoln used to (and will again) represent. These latest moves now represent a complete reversal of fortune. Too bad.
1. It frees Lincoln to be whatever customers expect of American Luxury. This time it's not a means to "brand" Lincoln differently within PAG. This time it's what will sell vehicles.
2. To say Lincoln will move away from cars that are fun to drive is premature. Granted, the line may become more Lexus-like than BMW-like but if Cadillac is moving towards BMW, then Lincoln by default moves towards BMW.
3. The LS was designed when it was part of this North American structure. Why can't future Lincolns be done as well using the same structure ?
4. Americans are now in charge of the American brand. Look at what Toyota has done once they put Americans in charge of their US development (I think this was in an Autoweek article or Car&Driver). The executives we have met through LLSOC are still there and just as committed. I would bet they get more management attention now than the last 3 years.
5. Lincoln has a special association with the Ford family, something Wolfgang didn't care about.
6. The Mark VII and VIII were developed without PAG and used Ford platforms.
7. The whole auto industry is in a horsepower war. Lincoln and Cadillac participated in that war in the past but in subtle ways (500 cubic inch Caddy motor if I recall).
8. Torque is an American god.
9. I would bet the 2005 LS is already locked in.
10. Ford needs Lincoln to succeed much more so than PAG needed Licoln to succeed.
If they want to know who their competition is on the luxury side, they better look at Lexus, not Cadillac. No car company today does "luxury" better than Lexus and the word is starting to spread to the older generation. More and more, I see elderly people driving around in LS400's and 430's who previously probably only owned Caddy's and Lincolns. The only people who are still buying TC's are the die hard FoMoCo people who have never owned anything but Ford products, and those people are obviously starting to look elsewhere as well.
Why would you want to compete against a company that is doing poor sales currently as it is? Do they think that Cadillac has some great vision of the future and that they are going to start dominating the market? Yeah right. Cadillac is stuck in the same hole as they are catering only to GM loyalists and losing everyone else.
Until the LS, I would never have even considered a Lincoln because of the "old" image it conotates. I still get people giving me strange looks when I tell them I drive a Lincoln (and of course they still don't know what an LS is and assume it is some variation of a TC or Conti). The Navigator is curently the ONLY Lincoln that John Q. Public would relate to being a non-old persons' vehicle.
And although I like the Navigator, it is too big a vehicle for me so out of all of their current offerings, the only one I would consider buying is the LS. The upcoming Aviator might attract me as a repeat Lincoln buyer (I know my wife loves them), but if they start catering to what they think the older generation wants in a vehicle, then they will probably lose this 30-year old as a repeat customer.
O.k., I've ranted enough.
Bruno
As for seeing Cadillac as the competition, what's wrong with that? Although FWD, the current DeVille line-up is far more enthusiast oriented than the Town Car. The current Seville (due for replacement with a RWD model) is light-years ahead of the the defunct Continental. Granted, the Catera was a joke but the CTS is plenty competitive with the V6 LS.
Many of us bought the LS because it offered that elusive combination of luxury, handling, performance and feel at a price that beat the imports. Why do we think seeing Cadillac as the major competitor will destroy that?
http://www.auto.com/industry/ulrich20_20020420.htm
..."Lincoln's once-ambitious offensive has been reduced to a peashooter fight with Cadillac over luxury scraps: The shrinking, aging corps of loyalists who won't set foot in a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus."
What disappoints me is the new direction that Lincoln is taking as expressed by key Ford Motor Company executives. The problem with considering Cadillac as the major competitor is that it's already an irrelevant brand. Considering the CTS is the closest thing to the LS that Cadillac builds, and the fact that it's inferior (because it's plain ugly, has no V8, et. al.) implies that Lincoln won't have to do anything to "remain competitive". Unfortunately, the sport-luxury market is comprised of many other (relevant) brands that offer more compelling examples of "value" and just happen to be import/foreign. These import brands will continue to compete with everyone else and improve, while Lincoln will compete with Cadillac and fade away into oblivion.
Travel Well Lincoln.
They say the S-type with a six speed would not have happened without him. He was furious with the killing of a Lincoln 3-series fighter, etc. The new S-type will be based on a Ford platform (LS ?)
As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for.
Ford article link in Car News - can't post full URL.
http://www.autoweek.com/
I've not posted in several days. Others have. Maybe it's not just me.
Merkur. . .or not. I guess this new crowd gets to choose.
Actually, I always liked both models, the XR4ti and the Scorpio.
Anyway - there is no way a new S-type or LS is going to be made on a radically different platform than the current one - just too costly. Whether they juggle model names, brands or whatever, it will be around somewhere. And I don't think we will have to travel to Europe to buy it. Though I am sure we could travel there WELL...
Do the managers at lincoln read this board, I would bet they do. I read boards related to my company very often and find them quite interesting to those that are right and wrong. But we can't comment about heresay one way or the other. I will bet the managers at Lincoln are smiling about how many of us posting negatives about their direction will be proven wrong.
Have a little faith, the LS platform, which is in the Jag and the T-bird, has a lot of credebility and forums like this and LLSOC are being heard. They just cannot comment about it. So the posting is worthwhile, but just give the folks at Lincoln a little more credit. Having been to Mania II, I can vouch like others have that they are a passionate group to make a car that stands out in the crowd, not just another appliance. The first test is right around the corner, the 2003 and Mania III folk are sure it will impress.
Although there is a lot of consternation about this whole Reitzle thing, I believe that most people in Ford's car groups realize that Ford car sales have been in the doldrums because Ford has offered precious few exciting and desirable cars and understand that this has to change. Hopefully Billy Jr & Jimmy O' will keep the bean counters at bay and deliver what Ford so desperately needs in car product.
Here's the quote:
"Coincidentally, the automotive media head to Santa Barbara, Calif., next week to test the critical new Lincoln Navigator and Town Car. Next up, the Aviator sport-utility and reworked LS sedan"
Who knows what they meant? Even if it's not next week, it can't be too far behind. July sounds about right.
Artie-signing off now to watch the "Osbournes" on MTV-funniest show ever on TV. Who'd a thunk it?
I loosened and retorqued each lug nut one at a time to 95 ft/lbs. The intermittent vibration is almost gone now. The rotors were still hot when I did it last night (didn't have time to let them cool) so I'll redo it when they're cold. The rotors may actually be slightly warped and need to be replaced or turned again, but hand torquing appears to be the key.
I quote"
BMW buyers tend to remain BMW buyers because they can move up the model ladder without losing anything in terms of performance or that very special BMW feel. The same is not true for Lincoln. It is doubtful, for instance, that a driver who has enjoyed the thrills of an LS V-6 or V-8 will find identical or more satisfaction in a lumbering Lincoln Town Car or Continental or in huge, overstuffed, cumbersome sport-utility models such as the Lincoln Blackwood (SUV/pickup) or Lincoln Navigator.
That means, as the Lincoln line is currently constituted, the LS buyer has nowhere else to go within the Lincoln family.
"
Maybe Wolfgang had some good ideas when he wanted a new larger LS platform?