jhoffman: I've been whining for over 2 years how Ford (Lincoln) should build a 2 door coupe on the DEW-98 platform. I'd be satisfied with a 2dr LS but would prefer one with a little more agressive styling.
Ford was mumbling about building the 49er a year ago, (2dr show car build on DEW-98 mechanicals) but I've heard nothing in 6 months so with Ford's financial problems I assume the 49er is dead.
My 2000 LS lease will be up in less than a year. I've looked at the T-Bird, but living in the North Country I just can't get very excited over a convertible and with hardly any trunk its not very practical as a daily driver. I'd take a permanent steel hardtop version of the T-bird. Getting rid of the retractable top would reduce weight and give it some trunk room.
Ford is missing the boat here. They let the MK-VIII die without a replacement just as more and more empty nest baby boomers are looking for something a little more exciting to drive than the 4dr sedans they've had for the last 30 years.
that Nissan, within a few months, has generated such high expectations (and sales).
The "G" sedan (with way too much power and a potential manual), looks pretty good. As several have pointed out, the interior isn't worthy. I haven't had the opportunity to concur. . .or not. The coupe sounds better.
Let me (once again) state my baseline: a sedan with rear-wheel drive and a manual transmission. Now, let's dream and imagine that such a vehicle were available with 260+ hp and cost less than $40K. Apparently, it can be done, although one may have to put up with two (large) doors. Or, as we've been led to believe," wait until '03," for the Lincoln competition. OK.
Those taillights are awsome on there and I already contacted them on how to get them for my car and they said it was exported from Japan. I went to the Japan Lincoln site but, really can't make heads or tails in contacting them to ship them over to the states. Does any one know where one can get them in the states.
Also,Brian(LS1BMW0)How are the Bridgestone SO-3? Do they ride well and quiet, also hows the handleing? I'm running low on tread on my Kuhmos and were either looking to replace them with the SO-3's or Pirelli P-Zero Rosso's.
Great discussion guys! My Stones have some tread left in the front but the rears are toast at 25k from sliding around corners. I have been looking at the rack and tires.com as well. From Brian's comments, I will check out the S0-3's. I thought the Pilots were way too expensive. Mike said his Yoko DBses were wearing funny. I've almost resigned myself to the original Firestones because I have given them hell and they have worn evenly and never let me down. Heck of a tire. They have also lasted longer than any tire I have had and I have had Goodyear Eagles, Fuldas, and other expensive gumballs. Too bad I missed the $69.00 Stones deal. At $120 I may have more of an open mind. I don't want to spend much more than $150 per and I don't need an all-season tire. It doesn't rain enough here(in fact we are in a drought in SoCal) so a "summer tire" is adequate. I lusted after a set of Yoko Sports because all the M3's seem to buy those as replacements and the tread design looks outrageous. Anyone seeing that tread knows you are serious about cornering. But they are as expensive as the Pilots. Wheels are a sore subject with me. Caliper clearance and offset are so critical that I don't even want to think about it. I thought the aftermarket would finally get with it after the DEW98 multiplied but I guess it's still too early. The wheel company that I think is great is Centerline as they have unique rotary-forged wheels that weigh about 14 lbs. Find me a forged 14 lb wheel that has the right caliper clearance and offset in an 18x8 or 8.5 and I'm game. You guys can be the guinea pigs until then. At 25k, I still have lots of brake pad left but the dust is killing me. Are the Porterfield pads much better? Also, Mr. LS Brian, I have read many articles about the McClaren LS. But no E-mail or phone contact # is given. The Kiwi headrests thing clues me into a New Zealand location. I doubt if you haven't spoke to them already! $55k blown LSes don't do much for me but the mention of an LSD unit they have found for it gives me a mental erection. I have to track this down.
Stanny1 said "I don't need an all-season tire. It doesn't rain enough here"
After Mania III, the drive to LAX in the rain was an adventure. Coming from the midwest, the amount of accidents seemed worse than the fender benders during snow storms. Is it the tires (optimum dry traction) you guys use in California :-)
John -it's the oil residue on the roads that builds up every day. When it does rain, the roads get super slippery. We just don't get enough rain to clean off the oil build-up. Add to that the inexperience of the SoCal driver in rainy conditions. They forget to turn on their lights and allow enough space between cars for emergency braking. That car length for every 10 mph rule went out when traffic congestion got bad. Tailgating is common. ANYTHING that causes braking can cause a pile-up on our freeways. I rarely see LA traffic that is less than 80 mph. Drivers don't slow down much for rain. The biggest slowdowns are for "rubbernecking" accidents. Blood doesn't slow them much because it's somebody else's. Even ABS doesn't help much just after a rain starts. Traction is limited on our "Teflon Freeways". Oh, it's real common to see big machines on our freeways late at night. They sandblast the freeway clean, grind the concrete so it is level and straight and cut little grooves for wet traction that motorcyclists hate. The rain grooves help to compensate for the oil deposits. What we need here is one giant flush every once and a while.
Lincoln sure is in some trouble with its bread and butter Town Car down 33% in sales in 3 years! Confirms my "You can only fool them for so long" theory. That is it took a while, but customers have finally wised up and figured out that even with all the rebates and discounts $33K is too much to spend for a chromed up 1981 Ford.
Ford has a real bad case of "Old Car Blues". The Mustang dates back to 1977, The Crown Vic, Marquis de Sade & Town Car all date back to 1980. The Taurus and Sable are a newer, but are really only half 1995 vintage with the other half dating back to 1986. When you get right down to it, the only modern cars Ford has are the LS and the Focus. Spending all the engineering $$ on trucks and SUV's made for a great party but the hangover is real miserable right now.
I suppose most Continental customers will just move over to the Town Car, at least I think I read that the DOHC 4.6L engine will be an option in the 2003 TC, but I just can't understand why Lincoln didn't have a stretched LS ready to go to replace the Continental for 2003.
Of course the 22% drop in LS sales from 2000 to 2001 is like a stake in my heart. Has the LS already become dated or is the LS just being dragged down with the sinking Lincoln ship? Does anyone have the 2002 YTD sales #'s?
Stanny, McLaren cars is HQed in England but I belive their US HQ is in the Detroit area. You should be able to do a Google search and find them. I lost the link before I could post it, but I was looking at one of the many related Ford sites and someone had posted the name of another company that supposedly had a LSD for the LS.
The 2003 S-Type R (supercharged) has received positive press but several rags have complained pretty bad about the lack of LSD and how badly the traction control cripples the standing start launch in order to keep the wheels from spinning. With 400HP apparantly even at WOT the 'R' shifts well before redline in order to keep from spinning the wheels when upshifting. One of the rags pointed out that in 1/4 mile runs the 'R' shifted around 1000 RPM below max HP.
On or near the 1st of each month, they release detailed sales figures for each car line & model from the prior month. Click on the "Sales & Financial Results" link & you'll find the stories. LS sales from Jan. 1 '02 through Mar. 31 '02 were 9374 units, compared to 10178 for the first 3 months of 2001. Looking on the bright side, March '02 LS sales (4215) were up slightly compared to March '01 (4023).
Regarding the R model S-type, I think the Jaguar marketing bunch is making a SERIOUSLY stupid mistake in claiming 400 horsepower. The 400 HP figure is DIN, which is the European rating system; using the U.S. system, the R's horsepower is 388. They never, ever should've said 400 in regard to the U.S. model; they're just begging for trouble, IMHO. What a dumb thing to do, especially in light of the '99 Cobra deal. Sheesh.
Maybe that's what Wolfie was talking about when the Mania 3 bunch so rudely interrupted his Very Important Meeting...:)
(Hey, Wolfgang--those noisy people were CUSTOMERS. They've spent at least $1.5 million of their hard-earned dinero on your products. Get over yourself.)
Never thought I would be saying this about the Town Car but since my car's in the shop I got a last month build 2002 Town Car from Hertz. Compared to the earlier models this one actually doesn't have too many problems going around corners. While it is nowhere near the handling of the LS it is remarkably better than last year's model. Good acceleration and decent seats.
And, I'll bet the Hertz car was not the Touring Edition.
If the TC with the lower rear end and duals can get a 0-60 in 8 seconds, that's just about what my 94 4.6 TBird can do.
In 1988, I rented a new TC to go on a vacation with my wife and two kids. With the four of us and a trunk full of luggage, the car was miserable to drive. It was sluggish, wallowed like a cow, and the back was so low that the headlights were blinding all the oncoming drivers.
But, when I bought my 89, I optioned for the heavy duty suspension, including load leveling shocks, 3.27 rear, and the same trip with the same load was, let's say, acceptable.
I'm not saying that my 89, or any TC, is a "real handler" by any means, but when you look at the tons of SUV's on the highway, is the TYPICAL buyer really that interested in superior handling?
None of the limo drivers that I've talked to (and there have been way too many airport trips) have ever said anything bad about the TC, and these guys basically live in these cars and drive them in all kinds of conditions. Most praise the handling of the newer models and none ever complained about chassis flex.
This may be blasphemy to you folks, but a time may come when today's most devoted sports sedan driver places a higher emphasis on easy access, room, comfort, large trunk, cavernous back seat (for senior citizen parents), and overall vehicle smoothness than superior handling.
This is what the TC was designed to do, and, except for being a bit ugly, in my opinion, it does it well.
I'm inclined to agree. Not that I'd want one as my everyday driver, but the TC fulfills its mission. It is also one of the most reliable and durable American cars. I can look in the local classifieds any day and see at least a half-dozen for sale with well in excess of 100K miles on the clock.
I think the 2003 TC will impress some of you. It's not going to be an LS, but there is a new hydroformed frame, rack & pinion steering and changes to the suspension.
Try taking a family of 4, including a 6'5" son, plus luggage, on vacation in anything else.
Sorry Jerry I still just don't get the Town Car. I've put too many miles on them, remember my Father in law has one and I've been on vacation with them several times. Any one of the 16 Taurus's I had were more comfortable to drive and had more front seat leg room than a TC. We we're visiting them at their cottage I try to make sure that I have my car parked so I have his TC blocked in. That way come dinner time it's easier for me to drive my car that his TC. The low dash on the TC is great for banging your shins into also. At least the last 2001 TC loaner I had felt like it had more front seat leg room so they must have changed the seat tracks. My wife went to FL one year with her parents and absolutely hated driving their TC. She said the thing just floated all over the road and had no feel in the steering so you could tell where you were. I've taked to several limo drivers who really didn't like driving TC's. Some had the same front seat leg room complaints. One's quote was "This things designed for you folks in the back, not the guy up front". Call me crazy but out of all the recent TC's I like this last generation the best. It has some style but it's ruined by a cheap materials look. The biggest complaint of the design that I've heard is the smaller trunk. Haven't seen the 2003 in person but from the photos it looks more like the new Marquis de Sade than the new TC. I guess I'm missing something as neither do I understand the TC nor do I have a clue as to how McDonalds stays in business either.
My favorite Taurus's are still the 1995-1999 ovals. Again they had a complete style to them and were different than the same old sedans on the road. The 2000-2002's look like the half baked clap trab band aid redesign of the 1995 that it is. At least the 2000-2002 Sable looks better than the Taurus but still suffers from some of the old / new band aiding.
That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. The R-model info appeared in last week's issue of autoextremist.com and didn't mention the other engine configurations. I thought that I had seen this same information in other sources, but I haven't been able to locate any other confirmation; all the other articles I've seen in U.S. media outlets state "400 horsepower" for the R.
I've posted a question on the jagtalk forum to see if anyone there can provide more information; if it turns out that the autoextremist info is wrong, I will certainly post a retraction & an apology. Frankly, I hope it IS wrong; we'll see.
The difference in cornering ability might be due to the fact you were maybe given a TC with the handeling pkg. An option started in 2001 I believe. You can tell the difference - the sport TC has body side moldings that are the same color as the car. I think other exterior chrome is color keyed also. A version that not many people know about.
I love my 2000 LS8 and have appreciated advice of this board with problems (window regulators etc.). In spite of me not being a club member many on here have helped me.
Something is wrong in my opinion when a message like I posted gets yanked. I guess thats life.
Anyway thanks to Brian & all of the others that have helped me.
<<<Folks, I mentioned the other day that we need to ignore a certain overly-disgruntled LS owner and that remains true. Please just leave the problem to me.>>>.
I noticed that the passenger side, rear window of my 00 LS has started to clunk when I close it. The clunk takes place as the window is nearing the window frame. Am I on the verge of experiencing one of the infamous falling window acts?
stanny1, www.specialvehicles.com has a LSD for the LS (definitely for the V8 and a mention that the package is available for the manual V6). You might check them out.
McLaren has their own designed LSD (patented) for the LS. Or at least it may happen. One press release by them said the LSD is a possibility while another said it's definite. Either way, it won't be available until the fall.
Sounds suspicious, all right, although I think most of us have had no such warning. Historically, the passenger side is the more likely failure. If you have a good relationship with your service dept. maybe they'll replace it for you without waiting for total failure.
Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about your posts being deleted. It's well known that our host has the last word on what can get posted, and others have complained to no avail. I've also had posts deleted that did not violate the rules of engagement, and despite my complaints, we are powerless to argue. Just grin and bear it, there's nothing you can do except hope that we eventually get a new host.
As long as we're civil in our language and don't initiate personal vendettas, any post that has as it's subject the LS and/or cartalk in general should be allowed.
Why shouldn't potential buyers, or people who like to talk cars, hear the good and the bad?
I like the LS, but not enough to buy the present version, and I've had a few potshots taken at me (especially in the giowa days), but so what?
to slunar: everyday, for the next six weeks, my TC will be used to transport four people (including two 80 year old senior citizens) to and from the hospital for reasons that I will not bore you with.
As one of the seniors can hardly walk, bend, and/or move his legs, I can't imagine how they would manage in any sport sedan, BMW, Jag S, LS etc.
Never thought when I bought the car in 1989 that we'd be using it for something like this, but stuff happens.
125,000 miles and still running as quiet as day 1, except the left rear window doesn't work. Trans has been rebuilt, but the motor has never been apart. Starting to get a lot of "want to sell it?" inquiries. These cars just keep running.
As a Ford person, I would love to have a 2002 TBird (for those times when I just want to take a ride) and a new TC in the driveway (vacations, shopping, etc). But, the TBird markup turned me off that car, and the present TC styling is, well, ugly. (2003 looks better.)
But, I do agree that the present version of the TC has less room than the older versions, my 89 included. (That's why they stretched the car 6" to make the "L" model.)
FYI, poster on the Marauder chatbox says that he purchased one for slightly under list. Price was still in the 35K range.
From the Detroit News, Bill Jr has given Wolfgang a week to say if he is staying or going. The below quote may give some additional insight as to why Wolfie was so testy during the LLSOC visit:
"Reitzle was particularly frustrated by the company's decision last year to significantly pare back a $2-billion vehicle development plan for Lincoln. Since then, Reitzle has recommended that Lincoln and Mercury be peeled out of the Premiere Automotive Group and placed back under Ford's North American operations in Dearborn, Ford executives say."
My understanding was that an all new Lincoln high end platform to replace or be positioned above the TC was the project that was killed. It was also supposed to have a V12 engine. The Lincoln R&D budget was slashed from $2B to $650m.
Jerry, Do you drive a LS? Whether it's a car, a camera, a meal or whatever some products have it and some don't. With a car it's not just how many G's you can pull on a skid pad, its the overall feel of the car. The LS has it, most BMW's and Mercedes have it, the TC isn't even in the ball park. Sounds like a $23,000 Windstar is more suited to your transportation requirements than a TC.
Also I don't believe that there is any change in the interior volume of the present (up to 2002) TC over the previous version. The only change appears that somewhere in the last couple of years they changed the front seat tracks so someone who is taller than 5'6" can fit behind the steering wheel. This obviously cuts down rear seat room to the benefit of the front seat occupants. For the last 20 to 30 years Ford has produced cars designed only for midget only rear seat passengers. This is what killed the Contour in the US. With the pre-announcement of the Ford 500, Ford has finally figured out that rear seat passengers are real people too.
Just for the record, Jerry, I'm not anti Ford, I've had 22 Fords in the last 30 years and still have 3 in the garage including my LS. With that statistic I consider myself highly qualified to speak on both the positives and negatives of Ford products so please excuse me if I'm coming on a bit strong.
Johnnylink, thanks for the link. Us LS guys can now boast that the LS had the smallest sales decrease (in %) YTD in 2002 of any Lincoln-Mercury car and also of any LM vehicle except the new Mountaineer and of any Ford / LM car except the CV which has suddenly has a sales resurgance.
I'm still shopping for an LS, but haven't closed a deal yet.
I'm 32, and discovered the LS courtesy of an upgrade & discount one weekend from Hertz.
Though I wouldn't want a Town Car as a daily driver, I'm renting them much more frequently, especially when I'm planning on driving 500-1000 mile trips. I relate to Jerry's post, because I am frequently in the company of older and elderly relatives on these. The Town Car is a great passenger car. The driving has improved from the '94 model my dad owned, but it's no LS. I was recently passing a car on a North Carolina backroad at about 85 mph. The car up shifted right as I was changing lanes, causing an uncomfortable yet brief lack of stability (certainly getting the attention of my passengers), but otherwise cruised effortlessly, mile after mile.
Lincoln still needs the Town Car, but with more R&D dollars, I would think a long wheel base LS would make an excellent start for the next generation TC. How about 90% of the LS's performance with 90% of the Town Car's rear seat room?
Stanny...you mentioned your disgust with the LS brake dust. Remember, the front pads on the non-sport LS are a different compound, and barely dust at all. To compare, they dust about as much as the rears do now on your LS. Straight swap from sport pads to non-sport pads. On the street, Ive found zero performance difference.
Note: Rear pads are same on both sport and non-sport ls.
Was in the bookstore, and read the cover article for Motor Trend. (or was it Car and Driver?) Anyways, it appears that the Jag S class gets the EXACT same 6 speed auto used in the 7 series BMW. Exact same gear ratios and all.
Additionally, the 6 cylinder S class gets a 5 speed manual transmission.
I'm in the process of changing out filters for my 30k service. Can anyone tell me if there is a transmission filter to be changed or is the existing just cleaned, flushed and fluid replaced?
Reitzle will become head of head of a German engineering firm May 1. I wonder if he will run this company from his London apartment as he did PAG?
Lincoln is being moved out of PAG and into Ford's Consumer Business Group. Maybe some common-sense marketing touting the engineering superiority of the LS is on the horizon.
Congratulations to Bill Ford on forcing the issue with Reitzle and making the change now rather than waiting too long like Ford did with Jaques Nasser.
Congratulations also to LS friend, Jim O'Connor on his promotion to group vice-president for North American Marketing Sales and Service.
My 2001 Sport V-8 (25,000 miles) is the best car I have owned and potential buyers need to consider the LS in their purchasing evaluations. It is the best-kept secret for a performance sedan with luxury.
I also have a hunch that the Lincoln LS, Motor Trend Car of the Year for 2000, will be receiving a considerable amount of attention with the 2003 models and, feature for feature, will easily pass the competition for value.
No, I don't own an LS, but I did test drive one over a year ago over the roads that I travel daily. Decided to wait for the Marauder.
Now, with the "MSRP plus" that Merc dealers are hinting they want, and the lack of a sunroof until November, I'm reconsidering.
With the changes I'd like, might even consider the 2003 LS along with the 2003 Jag S and, if they get their pricing act together, the Marauder.
Friend of mine picked up a plain GrandMarquis. Loves it. (As "kids", he drove and loved his 66 Pontiac 4speed, 421, now he drives a GM and his wife drives a Toyota. Priorities do change.) Asked me why I don't consider a plain GM. Told him that I've still got a few years left where I still want (and can afford) one daily driver "toy" in my garage alongside my TC and my two old cars, which I only drive weekly.
As an example, my past toys vs transportation cars: 65 Corvette/57 Chev 6 cylinder piece of junk; 64 Galaxie convt/58 Pontiac; 68 Cyclone GT/72 Ford LTD Brougham; 85 TurboCoupe/89 TC; 94 TBird/89 TC. (No toys between the Cyclone and the TurboCoupe due to growing family requirements.)
The toy car is the one you drive sometimes just for the heck of it, or that you wash daily (weather permitting) even when it isn't that dirty, or that you're afraid to take to a shopping center, or that you park in the company lot far away from other cars.
Windstar? Nah, not now, but I do believe in "never say never". Maybe some day as the second vehicle, who knows?
I don't ever remember saying that you were anti-Ford. I was a Chevy/Olds guy and didn't become a Ford fan until I went to work for Ford (NY/NJ Parts Depot)in 1965. So, I haven't owned 22 Fords, but I do have five right now. ( 1958, 1964, 1989, 1994, and 1999)
Some interesting days at the NY/NJ Parts Depot-saw one of the first 66 Mustang 2+2's, and, one day, the depot manager bought a bright yellow Pantera. Another day, they parked at least 50 Mercury Cyclones GTs in the lot (all yellow or orange) before they drove them caravan style to NY City as part of NY Knicks advertising campaign. After buying my 68 Cyclone, I kicked myself after seeing one of the first 1969 CJ 428 Cyclones in the depot parking lot.
Since Lincoln is out of PAG and Reitzle quit because they slashed the Lincoln budget I have trepidation. Without Lincoln being in PAG, Lincoln either will not be able to platform share with Jag or will get the platform after Jag is done developing it. The only other option I can envision is that Lincoln will again use Ford platforms like the Taurus. There is no way with a budget cut and eviction from PAG that Lincoln can develop their own platforms.
None of the above scenarios sound very good. Even if Lincoln gets to use the Jag platforms it will not have Lincoln input into the design and Lincoln will be introducing them to market two years after Jag. This already makes the platform semi-dated.
Why can't Ford have a long term vision, make a plan to achieve the vision and then stick to it? Ford sounds like it is becoming like the old GM while GM is becoming more long term goal oriented.
Keep in mind that Lincoln had the LS long before they were part of PAG. Reitzle quit because he forced a situation where he tried to back Ford into a corner of making him the chief big-ego. Ford didn't (and rightfully so) bite.
Lincoln developed their own platforms or shared them with other Ford products before PAG and they will keep developing their own platforms or sharing them without PAG.
Here's another view on Wolfie leaving from Forbes. Sounds pretty bullish for Ford.
To me, PAG corporate structure has more to do with tackling the logisitical issues associated with cooridnating European production plants (that have lower car production capacities), as well as marketing and importing into North America. The Lincoln and Mercury brands have no such issues and had nothing in common with Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Land Rover, and Volvo in these areas.
And sorry, but since when has Volvo been any more upscale than, say Mercury? Certainly not Lincoln. The whole charade of claiming Volvo as a "Premium" brand is ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, Volvos are nice cars, but they're certainly not prestige and never have been. Volvo has historically catered to the safety minded and those that live in northern climes. Volvos are THE most common vehicle driven in the Scandanavian countries . . . particularly in the winter.
Just because Lincoln will no longer be apart of the PAG aparatus, why does that imply that platform sharing will cease? I wasn't aware that PAG had their own engineering functions. Design perhaps, but not engineering.
At present, I think it's too early to tell how Lincoln will be affected by this reorganization. Certainly, the budget cuts imposed by Scheele will have a more dramatic impact on Lincoln than the PAG re-org. Hopefully, with Lincoln outside of the PAG structure, the Lincoln brand won't have to compete for funding against brands that need proportionately more funding to cover logistic support. Just my view.
Mark (the tranny engineer) recommends just having the tranny flushed by tapping into the cooler lines with a special machine.
i recently had my selling dealer do it, and I believe it was worth every penny of the $127. They had 2 different part numbers down for "kits" that were used... I'm hoping that they didn't change the filter, but it looks like they might have anyway.
Someone also mentioned that the tranny has to be warmed to operating temp. for the fluid level to be correct in the end.
goodyrl - please email me - I have not removed any post of yours.
jerrym said "As long as we're civil in our language and don't initiate personal vendettas, any post that has as it's subject the LS and/or cartalk in general should be allowed."
That is exactly correct and exactly what goes on around here. Koury, if you have an issue with me, please email me and let me know. To my knowledge I have never removed a post that was not in violation of the MA.
There are some circumstances of which you folks may not be aware. If a member has been banned one, two, three times, that person's posts become subject to deletion on sight. It seems to me that would be welcomed by you, but if it's not, I'm sorry. It's just how we have to do things.
Please, anyone who has any questions or gripes about the management of this topic, email me - I really would like to hear from you.
What's that saying about it being better to be a big fish in a small pond ? Moving Lincoln back to Ford North America puts Lincoln back into the top luxury brand rather than the poor stepchild of PAG.
Using Ford platforms does not bother me, I doubt any of the future PAG platforms will be PAG-only anyway and possibly could be Ford plaforms in the first place like the Jaguar X-type or a future Taurus that could be shared with Volvo (old rumor, not sure if that may come to pass).
At Mania III, we were told the LS driving dynamics are being used as the goal for all of Lincoln's products. That decision has more affect on the future LS than this shuffling of suits.
PS. The European Ford cars have gotten good reviews for their driving dynamics too, witness the Ford Focus here. I don't see using those platforms as a bad thing, especially if it keeps the costs down.
Seems to me that you guys believe that Lincoln leaving PAG is good and won't affect the product and may even help. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it.
Sure Ford platforms like the Focus are good for their purposes but they are FWD platforms meant for low cost vehicles. Totally against the spirit of the LS. The RWD Ford platforms are more suited for trucks than performance/luxury cars.
Yes, Lincoln can still share some platforms with PAG but how good will the communication be during gestation? When making a decision between Lincoln wanting "X" and Jag wanting "Y" whose wishes will be granted? Likely Jag will win 99% of the time. Of course, this could have been the case today since PAG seemed quite Eurocentric.
You guys are blowing this way out of proportion. The DEW98 platform was co-developed with Jag before the PAG even existed. AFAIK the PAG is really just about the executive reporting structure and has little or nothing to do with each brand's products other than decisions made at the executive level. Like Brian said - Reitzle made a power play for the #2 job and Bill Ford stood his ground and forced Wolfie to either fish or cut bait - he cut bait. There is absolutely no reason to believe anything will change as far as platform development or sharing.
I second the info gkarg has posted, and am the guy who posted the temperature warning. My mechanic was unfamiliar with the procedure and didn't warm it up sufficiently. As a result the transmission was left 1 qt low when refilled. But I'm sold on the flushing procedure and will have it done every 30k for as long as I own my car. Mark has also mentioned that regular filter changes were unnecessary in a properly maintained transmission.
Don't worry about PAG. There are more serious car nuts in Dearborn, anyway. Meanwhile, better go check out the Jag S-Type board and see if those guys are worried that Jaguar won't get to borrow Lincoln LS technology any more.:)
Comments
Ford was mumbling about building the 49er a year ago, (2dr show car build on DEW-98 mechanicals) but I've heard nothing in 6 months so with Ford's financial problems I assume the 49er is dead.
My 2000 LS lease will be up in less than a year. I've looked at the T-Bird, but living in the North Country I just can't get very excited over a convertible and with hardly any trunk its not very practical as a daily driver. I'd take a permanent steel hardtop version of the T-bird. Getting rid of the retractable top would reduce weight and give it some trunk room.
Ford is missing the boat here. They let the MK-VIII die without a replacement just as more and more empty nest baby boomers are looking for something a little more exciting to drive than the 4dr sedans they've had for the last 30 years.
The "G" sedan (with way too much power and a potential manual), looks pretty good. As several have pointed out, the interior isn't worthy. I haven't had the opportunity to concur. . .or not. The coupe sounds better.
Let me (once again) state my baseline: a sedan with rear-wheel drive and a manual transmission. Now, let's dream and imagine that such a vehicle were available with 260+ hp and cost less than $40K. Apparently, it can be done, although one may have to put up with two (large) doors. Or, as we've been led to believe," wait until '03," for the Lincoln competition. OK.
Is it about "sport" or "luxury" or "sedan?"
Once again, this should be interesting.
http://www.classic-designconcepts.com/one_of_kinds_archive/bristol_lincoln_ls.html
Those taillights are awsome on there and I already contacted them on how to get them for my car and they said it was exported from Japan. I went to the Japan Lincoln site but, really can't make heads or tails in contacting them to ship them over to the states. Does any one know where one can get them in the states.
Also,Brian(LS1BMW0)How are the Bridgestone SO-3? Do they ride well and quiet, also hows the handleing? I'm running low on tread on my Kuhmos and were either looking to replace them with the SO-3's or Pirelli P-Zero Rosso's.
Mike
http://www.autointell.com/nao_companies/ford/ford9.htm
Membership has its rewards.
I have been looking at the rack and tires.com as well. From Brian's comments, I will check out the S0-3's. I thought the Pilots were way too expensive. Mike said his Yoko DBses were wearing funny. I've almost resigned myself to the original Firestones because I have given them hell and they have worn evenly and never let me down. Heck of a tire. They have also lasted longer than any tire I have had and I have had Goodyear Eagles, Fuldas, and other expensive gumballs. Too bad I missed the $69.00 Stones deal. At $120 I may have more of an open mind. I don't want to spend much more than $150 per and I don't need an all-season tire. It doesn't rain enough here(in fact we are in a drought in SoCal) so a "summer tire" is adequate. I lusted after a set of Yoko Sports because all the M3's seem to buy those as replacements and the tread design looks outrageous. Anyone seeing that tread knows you are serious about cornering. But they are as expensive as the Pilots.
Wheels are a sore subject with me. Caliper clearance and offset are so critical that I don't even want to think about it. I thought the aftermarket would finally get with it after the DEW98 multiplied but I guess it's still too early. The wheel company that I think is great is Centerline as they have unique rotary-forged wheels that weigh about 14 lbs. Find me a forged 14 lb wheel that has the right caliper clearance and offset in an 18x8 or 8.5 and I'm game. You guys can be the guinea pigs until then.
At 25k, I still have lots of brake pad left but the dust is killing me. Are the Porterfield pads much better?
Also, Mr. LS Brian, I have read many articles about the McClaren LS. But no E-mail or phone contact # is given. The Kiwi headrests thing clues me into a New Zealand location. I doubt if you haven't spoke to them already! $55k blown LSes don't do much for me but the mention of an LSD unit they have found for it gives me a mental erection. I have to track this down.
After Mania III, the drive to LAX in the rain was an adventure. Coming from the midwest, the amount of accidents seemed worse than the fender benders during snow storms. Is it the tires (optimum dry traction) you guys use in California :-)
John
Add to that the inexperience of the SoCal driver in rainy conditions. They forget to turn on their lights and allow enough space between cars for emergency braking. That car length for every 10 mph rule went out when traffic congestion got bad. Tailgating is common. ANYTHING that causes braking can cause a pile-up on our freeways. I rarely see LA traffic that is less than 80 mph. Drivers don't slow down much for rain. The biggest slowdowns are for "rubbernecking" accidents. Blood doesn't slow them much because it's somebody else's.
Even ABS doesn't help much just after a rain starts. Traction is limited on our "Teflon Freeways". Oh, it's real common to see big machines on our freeways late at night. They sandblast the freeway clean, grind the concrete so it is level and straight and cut little grooves for wet traction that motorcyclists hate. The rain grooves help to compensate for the oil deposits.
What we need here is one giant flush every once and a while.
Ford has a real bad case of "Old Car Blues". The Mustang dates back to 1977, The Crown Vic, Marquis de Sade & Town Car all date back to 1980. The Taurus and Sable are a newer, but are really only half 1995 vintage with the other half dating back to 1986. When you get right down to it, the only modern cars Ford has are the LS and the Focus. Spending all the engineering $$ on trucks and SUV's made for a great party but the hangover is real miserable right now.
I suppose most Continental customers will just move over to the Town Car, at least I think I read that the DOHC 4.6L engine will be an option in the 2003 TC, but I just can't understand why Lincoln didn't have a stretched LS ready to go to replace the Continental for 2003.
Of course the 22% drop in LS sales from 2000 to 2001 is like a stake in my heart. Has the LS already become dated or is the LS just being dragged down with the sinking Lincoln ship? Does anyone have the 2002 YTD sales #'s?
The 2003 S-Type R (supercharged) has received positive press but several rags have complained pretty bad about the lack of LSD and how badly the traction control cripples the standing start launch in order to keep the wheels from spinning.
With 400HP apparantly even at WOT the 'R' shifts well before redline in order to keep from spinning the wheels when upshifting. One of the rags pointed out that in 1/4 mile runs the 'R' shifted around 1000 RPM below max HP.
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/index.cfm
On or near the 1st of each month, they release detailed sales figures for each car line & model from the prior month. Click on the "Sales & Financial Results" link & you'll find the stories. LS sales from Jan. 1 '02 through Mar. 31 '02 were 9374 units, compared to 10178 for the first 3 months of 2001. Looking on the bright side, March '02 LS sales (4215) were up slightly compared to March '01 (4023).
Regarding the R model S-type, I think the Jaguar marketing bunch is making a SERIOUSLY stupid mistake in claiming 400 horsepower. The 400 HP figure is DIN, which is the European rating system; using the U.S. system, the R's horsepower is 388. They never, ever should've said 400 in regard to the U.S. model; they're just begging for trouble, IMHO. What a dumb thing to do, especially in light of the '99 Cobra deal. Sheesh.
Maybe that's what Wolfie was talking about when the Mania 3 bunch so rudely interrupted his Very Important Meeting...:)
(Hey, Wolfgang--those noisy people were CUSTOMERS. They've spent at least $1.5 million of their hard-earned dinero on your products. Get over yourself.)
JLinc, slightly cynical LLSOC member
Brian
The McLaren website URL is:
http://www.mclarenperformance.com/
There's plenty of contact info there.
You beat me to it, Brian!
Ford made a similar mistake with the Taurus restyling a few years back. Made a car comprised of ovals and the buying public said "no thanks".
If the TC with the lower rear end and duals can get a 0-60 in 8 seconds, that's just about what my 94 4.6 TBird can do.
In 1988, I rented a new TC to go on a vacation with my wife and two kids. With the four of us and a trunk full of luggage, the car was miserable to drive. It was sluggish, wallowed like a cow, and the back was so low that the headlights were blinding all the oncoming drivers.
But, when I bought my 89, I optioned for the heavy duty suspension, including load leveling shocks, 3.27 rear, and the same trip with the same load was, let's say, acceptable.
I'm not saying that my 89, or any TC, is a "real handler" by any means, but when you look at the tons of SUV's on the highway, is the TYPICAL buyer really that interested in superior handling?
None of the limo drivers that I've talked to (and there have been way too many airport trips) have ever said anything bad about the TC, and these guys basically live in these cars and drive them in all kinds of conditions. Most praise the handling of the newer models and none ever complained about chassis flex.
This may be blasphemy to you folks, but a time may come when today's most devoted sports sedan driver places a higher emphasis on easy access, room, comfort, large trunk, cavernous back seat (for senior citizen parents), and overall vehicle smoothness than superior handling.
This is what the TC was designed to do, and, except for being a bit ugly, in my opinion, it does it well.
I think the 2003 TC will impress some of you. It's not going to be an LS, but there is a new hydroformed frame, rack & pinion steering and changes to the suspension.
Try taking a family of 4, including a 6'5" son, plus luggage, on vacation in anything else.
My favorite Taurus's are still the 1995-1999 ovals. Again they had a complete style to them and were different than the same old sedans on the road. The 2000-2002's look like the half baked clap trab band aid redesign of the 1995 that it is. At least the 2000-2002 Sable looks better than the Taurus but still suffers from some of the old / new band aiding.
I've posted a question on the jagtalk forum to see if anyone there can provide more information; if it turns out that the autoextremist info is wrong, I will certainly post a retraction & an apology. Frankly, I hope it IS wrong; we'll see.
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
Please just leave the problem to me.
Thanks.
Pat
Sedans Host
BTW, anyone take the Consumer's Most Wanted poll and notice that Edmunds has the Jag S-Type but not the Lincoln LS in the polls? How bogus is that?
Brian
Something is wrong in my opinion when a message like I posted gets yanked. I guess thats life.
Anyway thanks to Brian & all of the others that have helped me.
Please just leave the problem to me.>>>.
I thought this was America.
McLaren has their own designed LSD (patented) for the LS. Or at least it may happen. One press release by them said the LSD is a possibility while another said it's definite. Either way, it won't be available until the fall.
Why shouldn't potential buyers, or people who like to talk cars, hear the good and the bad?
I like the LS, but not enough to buy the present version, and I've had a few potshots taken at me (especially in the giowa days), but so what?
to slunar: everyday, for the next six weeks, my TC will be used to transport four people (including two 80 year old senior citizens) to and from the hospital for reasons that I will not bore you with.
As one of the seniors can hardly walk, bend, and/or move his legs, I can't imagine how they would manage in any sport sedan, BMW, Jag S, LS etc.
Never thought when I bought the car in 1989 that we'd be using it for something like this, but stuff happens.
125,000 miles and still running as quiet as day 1, except the left rear window doesn't work. Trans has been rebuilt, but the motor has never been apart. Starting to get a lot of "want to sell it?" inquiries. These cars just keep running.
As a Ford person, I would love to have a 2002 TBird (for those times when I just want to take a ride) and a new TC in the driveway (vacations, shopping, etc). But, the TBird markup turned me off that car, and the present TC styling is, well, ugly. (2003 looks better.)
But, I do agree that the present version of the TC has less room than the older versions, my 89 included. (That's why they stretched the car 6" to make the "L" model.)
FYI, poster on the Marauder chatbox says that he purchased one for slightly under list. Price was still in the 35K range.
"Reitzle was particularly frustrated by the company's decision last year to significantly pare back a $2-billion vehicle development plan for Lincoln. Since then, Reitzle has recommended that Lincoln and Mercury be peeled out of the Premiere Automotive Group and placed back under Ford's North American operations in Dearborn, Ford executives say."
My understanding was that an all new Lincoln high end platform to replace or be positioned above the TC was the project that was killed. It was also supposed to have a V12 engine. The Lincoln R&D budget was slashed from $2B to $650m.
Jerry, Do you drive a LS? Whether it's a car, a camera, a meal or whatever some products have it and some don't. With a car it's not just how many G's you can pull on a skid pad, its the overall feel of the car. The LS has it, most BMW's and Mercedes have it, the TC isn't even in the ball park. Sounds like a $23,000 Windstar is more suited to your transportation requirements than a TC.
Also I don't believe that there is any change in the interior volume of the present (up to 2002) TC over the previous version. The only change appears that somewhere in the last couple of years they changed the front seat tracks so someone who is taller than 5'6" can fit behind the steering wheel. This obviously cuts down rear seat room to the benefit of the front seat occupants. For the last 20 to 30 years Ford has produced cars designed only for midget only rear seat passengers. This is what killed the Contour in the US. With the pre-announcement of the Ford 500, Ford has finally figured out that rear seat passengers are real people too.
Just for the record, Jerry, I'm not anti Ford, I've had 22 Fords in the last 30 years and still have 3 in the garage including my LS. With that statistic I consider myself highly qualified to speak on both the positives and negatives of Ford products so please excuse me if I'm coming on a bit strong.
Johnnylink, thanks for the link. Us LS guys can now boast that the LS had the smallest sales decrease (in %) YTD in 2002 of any Lincoln-Mercury car and also of any LM vehicle except the new Mountaineer and of any Ford / LM car except the CV which has suddenly has a sales resurgance.
I live it every day and wish to own a vehicle that isn't that way disposed.
Or, we could all flap our wings and fly to the moon . . . or wherever.
Merkur (I think I've finally got the spelling correct).
Or not. . .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5270-2002Apr17.html
I'm 32, and discovered the LS courtesy of an upgrade & discount one weekend from Hertz.
Though I wouldn't want a Town Car as a daily driver, I'm renting them much more frequently, especially when I'm planning on driving 500-1000 mile trips. I relate to Jerry's post, because I am frequently in the company of older and elderly relatives on these. The Town Car is a great passenger car. The driving has improved from the '94 model my dad owned, but it's no LS. I was recently passing a car on a North Carolina backroad at about 85 mph. The car up shifted right as I was changing lanes, causing an uncomfortable yet brief lack of stability (certainly getting the attention of my passengers), but otherwise cruised effortlessly, mile after mile.
Lincoln still needs the Town Car, but with more R&D dollars, I would think a long wheel base LS would make an excellent start for the next generation TC. How about 90% of the LS's performance with 90% of the Town Car's rear seat room?
http://www.detroitnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0204/19/autos-469745.htm
Note: Rear pads are same on both sport and non-sport ls.
Additionally, the 6 cylinder S class gets a 5 speed manual transmission.
I have a 2000 LS 8 cylinder automatic. Thanks.
aiuto@att.net
Reitzle will become head of head of a German engineering firm May 1. I wonder if he will run this company from his London apartment as he did PAG?
Lincoln is being moved out of PAG and into Ford's Consumer Business Group. Maybe some common-sense marketing touting the engineering superiority of the LS is on the horizon.
Congratulations to Bill Ford on forcing the issue with Reitzle and making the change now rather than waiting too long like Ford did with Jaques Nasser.
Congratulations also to LS friend, Jim O'Connor on his promotion to group vice-president for North American Marketing Sales and Service.
My 2001 Sport V-8 (25,000 miles) is the best car I have owned and potential buyers need to consider the LS in their purchasing evaluations. It is the best-kept secret for a performance sedan with luxury.
I also have a hunch that the Lincoln LS, Motor Trend Car of the Year for 2000, will be receiving a considerable amount of attention with the 2003 models and, feature for feature, will easily pass the competition for value.
Now, with the "MSRP plus" that Merc dealers are hinting they want, and the lack of a sunroof until November, I'm reconsidering.
With the changes I'd like, might even consider the 2003 LS along with the 2003 Jag S and, if they get their pricing act together, the Marauder.
Friend of mine picked up a plain GrandMarquis. Loves it. (As "kids", he drove and loved his 66 Pontiac 4speed, 421, now he drives a GM and his wife drives a Toyota. Priorities do change.) Asked me why I don't consider a plain GM. Told him that I've still got a few years left where I still want (and can afford) one daily driver "toy" in my garage alongside my TC and my two old cars, which I only drive weekly.
As an example, my past toys vs transportation cars: 65 Corvette/57 Chev 6 cylinder piece of junk; 64 Galaxie convt/58 Pontiac; 68 Cyclone GT/72 Ford LTD Brougham; 85 TurboCoupe/89 TC; 94 TBird/89 TC. (No toys between the Cyclone and the TurboCoupe due to growing family requirements.)
The toy car is the one you drive sometimes just for the heck of it, or that you wash daily (weather permitting) even when it isn't that dirty, or that you're afraid to take to a shopping center, or that you park in the company lot far away from other cars.
Windstar? Nah, not now, but I do believe in "never say never". Maybe some day as the second vehicle, who knows?
I don't ever remember saying that you were anti-Ford. I was a Chevy/Olds guy and didn't become a Ford fan until I went to work for Ford (NY/NJ Parts Depot)in 1965. So, I haven't owned 22 Fords, but I do have five right now. ( 1958, 1964, 1989, 1994, and 1999)
Some interesting days at the NY/NJ Parts Depot-saw one of the first 66 Mustang 2+2's, and, one day, the depot manager bought a bright yellow Pantera. Another day, they parked at least 50 Mercury Cyclones GTs in the lot (all yellow or orange) before they drove them caravan style to NY City as part of NY Knicks advertising campaign. After buying my 68 Cyclone, I kicked myself after seeing one of the first 1969 CJ 428 Cyclones in the depot parking lot.
None of the above scenarios sound very good. Even if Lincoln gets to use the Jag platforms it will not have Lincoln input into the design and Lincoln will be introducing them to market two years after Jag. This already makes the platform semi-dated.
Why can't Ford have a long term vision, make a plan to achieve the vision and then stick to it? Ford sounds like it is becoming like the old GM while GM is becoming more long term goal oriented.
Lincoln developed their own platforms or shared them with other Ford products before PAG and they will keep developing their own platforms or sharing them without PAG.
Here's another view on Wolfie leaving from Forbes. Sounds pretty bullish for Ford.
http://www.forbes.com/2002/04/19/0419flint.html
And sorry, but since when has Volvo been any more upscale than, say Mercury? Certainly not Lincoln. The whole charade of claiming Volvo as a "Premium" brand is ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, Volvos are nice cars, but they're certainly not prestige and never have been. Volvo has historically catered to the safety minded and those that live in northern climes. Volvos are THE most common vehicle driven in the Scandanavian countries . . . particularly in the winter.
Just because Lincoln will no longer be apart of the PAG aparatus, why does that imply that platform sharing will cease? I wasn't aware that PAG had their own engineering functions. Design perhaps, but not engineering.
At present, I think it's too early to tell how Lincoln will be affected by this reorganization. Certainly, the budget cuts imposed by Scheele will have a more dramatic impact on Lincoln than the PAG re-org. Hopefully, with Lincoln outside of the PAG structure, the Lincoln brand won't have to compete for funding against brands that need proportionately more funding to cover logistic support. Just my view.
i recently had my selling dealer do it, and I believe it was worth every penny of the $127. They had 2 different part numbers down for "kits" that were used... I'm hoping that they didn't change the filter, but it looks like they might have anyway.
Someone also mentioned that the tranny has to be warmed to operating temp. for the fluid level to be correct in the end.
jerrym said "As long as we're civil in our language and don't initiate personal vendettas, any post that has as it's subject the LS and/or cartalk in general should be allowed."
That is exactly correct and exactly what goes on around here. Koury, if you have an issue with me, please email me and let me know. To my knowledge I have never removed a post that was not in violation of the MA.
There are some circumstances of which you folks may not be aware. If a member has been banned one, two, three times, that person's posts become subject to deletion on sight. It seems to me that would be welcomed by you, but if it's not, I'm sorry. It's just how we have to do things.
Please, anyone who has any questions or gripes about the management of this topic, email me - I really would like to hear from you.
Thanks.
Pat
Sedans Host
Using Ford platforms does not bother me, I doubt any of the future PAG platforms will be PAG-only anyway and possibly could be Ford plaforms in the first place like the Jaguar X-type or a future Taurus that could be shared with Volvo (old rumor, not sure if that may come to pass).
At Mania III, we were told the LS driving dynamics are being used as the goal for all of Lincoln's products. That decision has more affect on the future LS than this shuffling of suits.
PS. The European Ford cars have gotten good reviews for their driving dynamics too, witness the Ford Focus here. I don't see using those platforms as a bad thing, especially if it keeps the costs down.
Sure Ford platforms like the Focus are good for their purposes but they are FWD platforms meant for low cost vehicles. Totally against the spirit of the LS. The RWD Ford platforms are more suited for trucks than performance/luxury cars.
Yes, Lincoln can still share some platforms with PAG but how good will the communication be during gestation? When making a decision between Lincoln wanting "X" and Jag wanting "Y" whose wishes will be granted? Likely Jag will win 99% of the time. Of course, this could have been the case today since PAG seemed quite Eurocentric.
Don't worry about PAG. There are more serious car nuts in Dearborn, anyway. Meanwhile, better go check out the Jag S-Type board and see if those guys are worried that Jaguar won't get to borrow Lincoln LS technology any more.:)
Scott
LLSOC Member