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Comments
Could it be that the Car/Driver or Motor Trend or whoever it was that did the 11-car comparo completely ignored the LS?
Could it be that the only thing this board has had to talk about lately has been replacement tires and brake pads?
Could it be that when the LS came out it had maybe six cars that looked like they were comparable, and now there are ten (or more)?
Could it be that I've been Giowa'd? Maybe the board is going on at 10 - 25 posts per day in some other plane?
While the car is good, the buzz is . . . nonexistant.
FWIW
And, oh, by the way, please answer, if you read this. It will help me realize the LS topic hasn't been put on hold.
I've mentioned before that the Auto mags have a tough time categorizing the LS. It doesn't quite fit the full luxury category but then it doesn't quite fit the full sport sedan grouping either.
What six cars? The 5-series, the Maxima (yea, it's FWD), ... what else? Six months later the A6 2.7T comes out so there's 3....
Ofcourse now, there's the above mentioned plus the CTS, G35, IS300, ....
Continuous buzz is something BMW is good at by having a 3/5/7-series. A new model is coming out almost every year, keeping the brand always in print.
I still like it here though also. While I like many running threads I also like just reading through instead of switching threads. Maybe because the internet is still a little slow and redrawing pages take time.
Not dead... just maybe out for a siesta!
Regards,
Airwolf1000
1. Memorial Day weekend hangover
2. '03 MY makeover that some LLSOC members have seen and know about, yet won't discuss it out of respect for our commitment to Lincoln
3. Lots of discussion taking place on the LLSOC discussion board where people that actually drive LSs can be critical without the occasional interloping potshot artist participation.
Steve, you're an LLSOC member . . . join in on the LLSOC discussions. Considering you own a '00 LS, I would think tire and brake pad discussions would interest you.
This has been a great place to learn, ask for help, or pass on info. It's a major reason why the LS is still at the top of my shopping list. As for the number of posts, it's a quality vs. quantity thing. There will be plenty more posts when there is real news. BTW: anyone have a release date on the '03?
Don't be so cynical pin-man!
But here's the thing. From the 300M people to the BMW 5-series group, there's rarely a day without 5-10 (or many more) postings in their respective boards. Granted, the A6 forum is fairly dead, but it never had the volume the LS forum enjoyed when the car was perceived as something different than it is now. The Miata's been around for more than a decade and rarely goes two days without several postings. How about the S2000?
I'm making observations in the face of what appears to me to be a situation in which our car is perceived and sold as a smaller appliance for those Lincoln faithful who think the Town Car is too hard to park.
It's interesting that the Memorial Day weekend was put forth as a reason for fewer posts. When I was car shopping, long weekends were the Holy Grail. In holiday weekends past, volume went up in most of the forums I followed, for people who were actually interested in the car.
If/when people are interested in this car and come to Edmunds to ask about it, here's where they'll come. They appear not to be here. Perhaps the "traveling well" campaign will bring all those folks who would otherwise go to the competition to post.
Let's hide and watch.
The LLSOC site is a far more hospitable site for people that actually drive the LS.
Scott, you put my feelings exactly into words.
I am looking at two previously owned cars - the Lincoln LS and the Cadillac STS. I will post something similar to this question on the STS board to give both sides a chance to reply.
When comparing I would look at:
2001 LS V8 with premium package
2001 or 2000 Cadillac STS
Can someone make a case for why I should buy the LS vs STS? I am open to either car and I have driven both but I have more experience with the LS because I rent them on business through Hertz.
Thank you
1. How has the reliability been on the LS after 30k miles?
2. As an owner, are there any features that you think stand out on the LS?
3. Is the premium package worth the price?
4. When is the next major body change coming for the LS?
5. Is there any thing I should look for in the maintenance records that could point to a larger problem with a particular LS? I mean outside of the recalls and service notices.
The best feature of the LS is the balance and handling . . . near 50/50 weight distribution and more than adequate power under the hood. My Sport has, I believe, most of the features included in the Premium package (except the wood/wud steering wheel and shift lever and heated seats), and I love all the creature comforts that they provide.
The 2003 model year LS, which will be released in November, incorporates a few minor cosmetic changes, but major changes probably won't be seen until 2005.
There's no major problems with the LS to "look out for", so I would just recommend that you do a good job of looking over the car before you buy it. Good luck with your decision, and please let us know what you decide and why.
Personally, I agree with what lsv8 says . . . the STS is a front heavy, FWD sedan while the LS is a balanced RWD sedan. If you're priority is driving, the LS is the way to go.
My observations: Caddy has more room and interior storage. The trip computer gives more information. The rear seat blower fan is a nice touch.
The LS has a much more solid, substantial feel after 45,000 miles than the Caddy. The Caddy has lots of little creaks and groans in the interior that are totally absent in the LS. The LS has much crisper handling. Both are non-sport models and the ride is very similar but the LS is a bit quieter over broken rutted streets. The power tilt/telescope wheel in the LS very nice.
Take a look at the Seville board. The Northstar is not without problems. Oil consumption and oil leaks have been a problem with my brother's car and his is not unique in that.
By the way, after 45,000 miles, my LS has had a grand total of one repair. It has been the most flawless car I have ever owned.
Note that the Seville is due to be replaced by a rear wheel drive model in a couple of years. The current model is getting a little long in the tooth.
With the exception of a couple of vehicles that were simply lemons (and I think these were 2000 models), reliability on the 2001 has been excellent. Only real problem has been the window regulators but that's fixed now. No engine or tranny failures reported AFAIK and very few problems in general. A few folks developed a rattle in a couple of different areas but nothing major. Nothing I would consider long term durability problems. I think Brian has over 70K on his already and it's still tight as a drum. Much better than anyone really expected.
2. As an owner, are there any features that you think stand out on the LS?
Personally, I like the handling, electric tilt/telescope steering wheel tied into the memory functions, handling, rain sensing wipers, handling, steering wheel mounted audio controls, handling, Select-shift tranny and finally, handling. Get the picture? After 2.5 years of ownership I still think up excuses to go drive it. And I still take the long way whenever possible, especially if it involves twisty roads. I don't think the handling can compare to the STS.
3. Is the premium package worth the price?
Best I can remember the premium is in between the Sport and Base models. It does get the 17" sport wheels (which look great and handle great but are more expensive for tires than the 16") and Alpine 12-speaker stereo, both of which are recommended. I don't think you get the SelectShift (not clear from edmunds). You definitely don't get the leather wrapped steering wheel and shifter (it's wood) so that's personal preference. If I were buying one I would go for the full sport model but if you like the appearance then I think the premium is ok too.
4. When is the next major body change coming for the LS?
The 2003 is due out in November but there aren't any major exterior changes. Changes are mostly in the engines (more hp) and interior.
5. Is there any thing I should look for in the maintenance records that could point to
a larger problem with a particular LS? I mean outside of the recalls and service notices.
I think all of the problems are addressed by TSBs and recalls. The window regulator failures are the only problem I can think of that might affect a 2001 model. A replacement metal part has been available for a few months that will correct the problem permanently if it occurs again. This is a warranty item and I would be willing to bet that Lincoln would cover replacement even if it occurred after the warranty given the notoriety of this problem (that's just my guess).
I don't think there have been any TSBs issued over the last 18 months or so (maybe one). That says a lot.
Hope that helps.
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
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It's not so much a question of which car is "better"; it's a matter of personal preference. Although the LS and STS are in the same category of car, they're very different animals.
Without getting too long-winded, my point is that your exact question was posed very recently. He replied that he personally owned 2 Caddies with the Northstar engine and had engine problems with both, i.e., oil leaks and consumption, requiring teardown. He further stated that he had recently test-driven an LS V8 for a week and recommended to the reader that he choose the LS. Of course, that's one man's opinion FWIW.
Artie
Charter Member-LLSOC
Bottom line I think is that comparing these two vehicles given the drive configurations is like comparing apples to oranges. If you want a car with superior handling characteristics get the LS or wait for the 2005 rear wheel drive STS with Bob Lutz tweeks.
a gt car, it's made for touring primarily and canyon cutting and ratracing (showing my age) are
not on the sts's list...the ls is a sport sedan in
the best way...handling is paramount...both fine carsfor different tastes...jack g
Quit as a living room at 80 MPH.
Laser-straight highway cruising. If a person is at all sensitive to on-center feel, the LS can't be beat.
What the STS lacks appears to be the LLSOC and an active Edmonds board. I was stunned to see only 639 posts on the Seville board compared to nearly 9,000 here. I don't know that there's not an older Seville board out there that I'm missing, and haven't looked for a Seville owners club, but I believe one of the best reasons to own an LS is LLSOC and the wealth of information it provides.
My sport is arrow- straight with virtually no vibration, and that's on old tires.
The most impressive thing about the LS is its handlng and resoponsiveness. When you want it to go straight it goes right were you point it. Turn the wheel and the LS responds instantly. The whole car feels like one tight pacackage with a very neutral feeling even when cornering very hard. At the limit the LS seems to naturally go into a 4 wheel drift, which is an incredible feeling for those who enjoy that sort of thing.
I haven't driven a STS in quite a few years but my recollection was that although the engine felt pretty powerful and the STS rode smoothly, it was slow responding like most big FWD cars. That is turn the wheel and there feels like there is a timelag before the STS responds. It also felt to me like the front and rear of the car were out of sync. That is the rear always waited for the front to do something before it followed. Other big American luxury cars that I have driven like the Continental and the Town Car have that same sort of "not together" feeling but even worse. That is there is no such thing as putting a STS into a 4 wheel drift unless you want to drive like a rally driver, that is when you take a hard corner keep you foot it the gas and work the brakes to try to kick the rear end out.
At 26.5K the only problem that I have had with my 2000 LS is a vibration in the 70-80 MPH range. After many trips to the dealers it appears to not be repairable. A number of other 2000 LS owners have reported the same vibration at the same speeds. I don't recall any 2002 LS owners saying that they have this vibration so it may no longer be an issue.
It has had two maintenance issues: the messege center four button switch came loose on one side, and the dash surface developed a mottled look. Both of these were quickly repaired by my L-M dealer. Absolutely no other problems.
I am a mechnical engineer and the design details of this vehicle are not found on most mass produced automobiles. Take a rear wheel off and study the design - this was race car technology ten years ago.
The average person has no idea that the "little Lincoln" is a performance sedan, but the knowledgeable car enthusiasts know the LS is a unique American automobile.
I drive the expressway steering with my left thumb & forefinger at 8 o-clock. (When there's no near-by threat) The car just seemed to know where to go.
The STS is a great FWD car, without a doubt. If you need a larger car with more room inside and in the trunk - then the STS might be the car for you.
The LS obviously wins the handling comparison!
The biggest downfall of the STS that I notice is the way the nose of the car lifts upward during straight line acceleration and dives when slowing. (I'd hate to try gunning it on a bend with all of that torque steer, lift, etc.) You just don't appreciate the rock solid ride that the LS provides until you drive other vehicles.
Remember when there was endless chatter about the PCM reflash. Well the latest rev. which is over a year old appears to have fixed 98% of the transmission complaints so there is little chat about on it.
The important stuff on the LS, the engine transmission, rest of the drive train and the suspension is pretty much bullit proof so there is nothing to talk about there either.
A lot of the chatter on other sites is around improving their cars, bigger sway bars to try to stop the leaning and plowing in corners. Different springs & struts to try to flatten out the front end dive and lift under braking and accleration. How many LS owners have ever complained about those sort of flaws in their LS?
At this point the LS flaws such as the rear window crashes, door rattle etc. are well know and have already been talked about extensively, so there hasn't been much of anything in the way of new problems to talk about.
The few unsolveable problems on the LS, like the vibration mine has, appear to affect so small a percentage of LS's that the rest of you appear to get bored and aggravated when any of us with vibrating LS's even dare to bring the subject up.
As far as news goes, there isn't much to talk about until first tests of the 2003 LS prototypes show up in the car rags, Lincoln releases info. to the public or the participants in this Forum are able to get behind the wheel of the LS for themselves. The 2003 LS intro is getting close enough that it appears almost no one even wants to sepeculate about the 2003 LS lest they look foolish when the 03 actually arrives and doesn't match one's speculation.
So until there is some news, good or bad there won't be all that much to talk about here other that "what tires to you recommend for my LS.
Have you seen the Letter from the Town Hall Manager on the Town Hall Welcome page? If not, you might want to follow that link to have a look.
And hang on to your seats. Change is never easy - for any of us - but resolving the Search problems we've had will be worth the pain.
Pat
Sedans Host
slunar, great post! Better a slow message board than one that's busy with bad news. And I've autocrossed a couple times vs. a Bullit Mustang, and not only is the engine & drivetrain bullet proof, the whole car is Bullit proof!
My baby turned 50k on the way home this PM. Still grinning as big as ever and looking forward to putting on the next 50, and the next . . .
If your goal is to put 150K miles on your LS, you're my kind of person.
I'm anxiously awaiting your input (so to speak). My LS has 33K on it, and I won't be completely convinced that it's worth what I paid until I've owned it 4 - 5 years and it has 100K+ miles on it.
V-8 275 HP
V-6 240 HP
Stiffer unibody structure.
Suspension updates mainly for improved ride.
Improvements in NVH
Minor tweaks to the exterior, see spy photo links posted here a few weeks ago.
Navigation system option.
Chrome Exhaust tips on all models
Keypad on Driver's door.
THX audio system
New wheels
Interior updates
Anticpated introduction date 15 NOV 02
OK Mania III attendees, don't laugh at me too hard.
I posted that about this issue about 2 months ago - with no response.
I think for those folks lucky enough to have their car inside a garage of any kind - especially during the day - have really not experienced some of the little problems (ie the rear window failures - because of the heat/sun.)
I guess either I didn't closely read your post about the weatherstripping, or hadn't closely looked at mine for a few weeks. I'll be out of town on vacation the first week of July, but the second week, when I'm home, I'll be going out to the dealer and have them look at it. We'll be discussing replacement.
$369 a month for 36 month closed end lease
$3675 deposit + tax and license
12,000 miles per year with .20 a mile overage
valid on all LSes with a price less than $35,040
(2002) model year LSes
I am sure all Manuals would be included.
I have a very similar lease except I pay $475 a month including ESP coverage and a 15k limit.
But this is quite a deal!