Lincoln LS

akirby

Don't forget the HID headlamps. I'm also becoming more and more convinced that the interior will feature a brushed nickel center console with real walnut wood trim like the Navigator/Aviator. Also a possibility of an electric parking brake (more console room) like the S-type. Note these are just guesses - I have no inside knowledge.

akirby

Whoa - $3600 down payment on a 36 month lease? That's $100/month! That's really $469 with $0 down (not accounting for interest). Not a bad deal but not as good as it originally sounds once you factor in the cap cost reduction.

fokrab

The trunk design with the huge "hinges" that take up too much room. A feedback heard in the rear speakers since repaired by dealer. The position of the steering wheel that prevents me from seeing the speedometer needle at 80mph give or take. I need to move the wheel but that is not comfortable for me.

Lease expires 4/03. Decsion to buy or get a new one will take some thought, but probably a dollar and cents issue. My current lease is ugly compared to those advertised.

airwolf1000

I have Heard Silicone Spray is best for weather Stripping.. I have a can and will silicone my car. I did it to my capri My weatherstripping seems to be o.k. on that car.

Never Tried ArmorAll..

Regarding posts... llsoc.com has taken over.... For most LS Owners.

Regards,
Airwolf1000

scottc8

leadfoot, sounds like you're doing the same maintenance as me, so ??? My car sits in the dry Colo. sun during the day but is garaged at night, and the weatherstripping looks good as new. It seems like people have severe aging problems with it, or none at all. Makes me wonder if there was a change during the production run. My build date is 5/00; do you guys with the bad rubber have early builds?

tlahaye

It has slowed some, but Airwolf's point is a good one. This one slowed down at about the same time LLSOC offered the trial membership. Sorting posts by major topic on that board makes LLSOC's site very user friendly.

akirby

Motor Trend's NY auto show favorite cars survey:

Infiniti G35 32%
Mustang Mach 1 27%
Lincoln/McLaren LSE 9%
Chrysler Pacifica 8%

jond

Akirby. Don't know how you got selected for the Aviator test drive but I envy you. I actually have one on order but have not received an offer to go see one and test drive it. How did you do that? It will be a replacement for my 2000 LS8 which I love but need a bit more room.

pmeeker

Kudos to Brian for a great site http://www.llsoc.com/V2R1/main.asp

leadfoot4

My LS is a 3/00 build car. Possibly FoMoCo has multiple suppliers, who supply "equivalent" parts??

einarvikng

To those concerned:

I too recomend Vinylex and do not recommend Armor All or Silicone. If you are serious about this issue, try www.carcareonline.com. I found them very helpful.

To CDPINHEAD: I plan to top your goal of 150k. In my opinion, a car today is a piece of junk if it doesn't go at least 200k very reliably. The last car I got rid of had 324k (Honda CRX) and the one before had 227k (Volvo 240)and so on. All it takes is good engineering and proper maintenance.

At 42.5k and still going great...

Enjoy,

Scott
LLSOC member

chartrand

We enthusiasts know what we've got. The average LS owner doesn't. We had a real estate agent over yesterday looking at our house (down sizing - 5 bedrooms is now too much for a wife and a dog)
She drove up in a candy apple LS with chrome wheels. It really stood out. When I asked her what she though of the LS and why she bought it, her reply was that it was "just a car" and she bought it because of the color. She wanted something that was limited and that others couldn't have.
I pressed on with more questions but she wanted to talk houses not cars (they're not all like you Stanny) There are four other identical parchment colored LS's to mine that I see at church on Sunday. I can assure you by looking at the owners that they were not bought for performance but rather a mini town car.
Ray C.
Charter member llsoc

akirby

I don't think it's the current Aviator. My impression was that it's a future SUV model that Lincoln wants feedback on prior to production. It's too late to do that for the Aviator. Could be a future variation of the Aviator or Navigator though. I'll share whatever I'm allowed to share after the event. I can't believe they're actually paying me to do this. And I have no idea how I got on the list, but I was only called at the last minute because they had 2 cancellations.

jgranata

that's the problem, so to speak, with the ls...there is no way that lincoln will be able to sell a ls to the bmw crowd, same goes for cadillac
with cts. there will always be exceptions, but it's basically not going to happen. both the ls and the cts seem to be fine cars, but most americans (not folks on these boards) don't care a hoot about irs,dts,abs or irs; all they care about
is color and will it start in the am. i'm disappointed that ford will discontinue the manual
in the v6, but i'm not surprised...it just doesn't fit into who buys lincolns. jackg

bbald1

I have been a lurker for some time now; checking to see how other owners are enjoying their LS. We love the car but the service concerns are beginning to take the excitement out of driving the car. In brief, 24 months, 62K miles, 33 service dates (including oil changes, tire rotations)an average of 1880 miles between service dates. We had installed a new radio, body moulding, a-pillar cover, front brakes @ 20K, leaking headlights, loose sway bars, steering knuckles, transmission x3 and other assorted miscellaneous items. The dealer service has been great. I just can't worry about my wife getting stranded on the highway, or worse, on her 90 mile daily round-trip to work. Lincoln has been of no assistance or relief. We'll be taking a bath on getting out of the lease early but I'll be better off not worrying about her driving the car. Good luck to all of you driving your LS.

airwolf1000

I don't agree with your comments jgranata. Chartrands Real Estate Agent sounds like a particular type of people those that value style over substance. Trust me alot of people buy BMW's because of their color, and because others can't have it. I personally love the BMW 540 in what used to be called a Orient Blue Metallic. Trust me there are alot of women and men drivers that buy the BMW Just because its cool and a status symbol. They don't give a hoot about the performance. Oh they just use it to drive to and fro so people can look at the Pretty BMW they have. Just go to some Universities... Trust me some people just buy it for the looks..

Well if you say it won't happen it will I am the prime example. I bought an LS instead of a BMW.. Why? Performance, Luxury Sedan, and the looks... Silver with Sport Package and Black tinted windows..... Ahh and Value.. I have a nice V8 for less than a BMW 530. And I do care about Performance. You can find me autocrossing in LS'es.

There have been other owners on here that have had BMW's.. Its all a matter of perception of what the Ultimate Driving Machine really is. Its different for some. The Proof is in the Pudding.. Unfortunately some People haven't heard Lincoln is in the Ultimate Driving Machine (Pudding) business now. Much less experienced it. By the way have I told you I like Pudding? Not that you really want to know but I do like Chocolate pudding.

On another note I love my LS but man have you ever had some seat time on a Honda S2000 on a track? Man that is a sweet ride from the designer of the ACURA NSX. I think I need Both of those in my Garage! Next to my Lincoln LS and Mercury Capri...

Regards,
Airwolf1000

jgranata

i think we're in agreement airwolf, some people but cars simply for reasons totally unrelated to
performance and utility. both of the bmw's and the
ls are great cars. the point i was trying to make
was that, in general, it's difficult for car makers to move their marque into a different part of the car buying segment (does that make sense?)
by introducing a product that is a radical departure for them (ls and cts). as good as the ls
is and the cts seems to be (still kinda new) you
are shoveling against the tide. you got a car you're happy with and saved a bundle, and i'm certain you're not the only one. i would say that
you are probably in the minority though, and this
is too bad for ford and the ls. i hope i'm wrong and that customers are flocking to the cts and the ls in droves; competition is good on and off the track..improves the breed as they say.

akirby

that the number of people who actually understand and care about the things that differentiate a BMW or LS or CTS from a Taurus or Accord or Camry is very small. A lot of people never use more than 30% throttle or take an off ramp at twice the posted limit or go autocrossing. Most (not all) women and quite a few men buy based on looks and image rather than performance. Some view a car only as a transportation appliance - they don't even enjoy driving. Those people will never be influenced by F1 inspired suspension components or limited slip differentials and manual gearboxes. There's no way to fix that - it's a fact. We can only hope there are enough enthusiasts like us to keep the mfrs making the good stuff and not worry about what other folks are buying and why. It's their money and they can spend it any way they like.

keyrow

Detailer Jim here: for those who are anal enough to care about their weather stripping I recommend the following products: Wurth Rubber Care, Sonax Rubber Care and Zymol Seal. I have used all 3 in my detailing business and found they all work well (Zymol, as usual, is the most expensive). These products are designed for "live" rubber gaskets. They are rich in glycerin which helps maintain the flexibility and sealing ability of the gaskets and devoid of silicone which depletes the natural oils/wax the rubber contains as a protectant from the onslaught of Ozone. YES I know Lincoln recommends silicone to "rejuvenate" the seals, but there is no way I would dare use it on anything that will associated with my name/business. Perhaps Lincoln is taking the easy way without really examining the science behind modern rubber compounds. Anyway a nice side benefit is that these products also help to keep doors from freezing in winter (for those of us not in SoCal or FL).

BTW the Carcaronline is an excellent site, especially their "articles" section.

     http://www.carcareonline.com/
For an explanation of why silicone is bad for rubber go to: http://www.carcareonline.com/tires_rubber_vinyl.html

I bought my manual LS INSTEAD of a BMW because my wife insisted that if I got a new car so should she. Since I couldn't afford both the Bimmer and her Infiniti I30 I reluctantly "settled" for the LS. Now I daily thank God my wife was so . . . umm . . . insistent, otherwise I would never have realized what a sleeper I now own. Thank you Lincoln! I will never think "only BMW" ever again.

gkarg

I have a 2/00 build LS and I take excellent care of my car - but it sits outside 365/24/7.

einarvikng

Jim, where are you located? I have been thinking about having my LS done. I prefer to do it myself, but with 2 kids blah blah blah...the time thing is killing me. Any chance you are in the Boston area?

akirby

I was also talked into my LS by my wife. I was all set to get a mustang GT convertible. I even called my credit union autofinder and tried to buy one on Friday but luckily for me they were only making 25th anniversary models and there were no GTs to be found like I wanted. By Monday I had changed my mind after some 'encouragement' from my wife. She doesn't like Mustangs. So I guess she didn't talk me INTO the LS as much as she talked me OUT of the mustang, but you get the picture. Sometimes we're just lucky!!

lolaj42

Chartrand has it right that a seeming majority of LS owners bought it thinking it to be a mini Town Car. While the LS is NOTHING like a Town Car (thankfully), the image Lincoln has and the loyalists that come into their dealerships have had the affect of, IMO, diminishing the perceived capabilities of the LS.

In fact, many of the complaints leveled against the LS (too harsh a ride, excessive noise, etc.) are coming from people that are probably coming out of Town Cars (or some other rolling "living room") that simply don't understand the nature of a well-balanced, precision tuned sport sedan. I've met a few folks in the AARP set that got their LS because it was "easier to park" than their prior Continental or Town Car, but then got out of it because it had too harsh a ride. The only reason these folks even considered the LS is because it was in the dealer show room when they came in looking for a new Continental or Town Car. They just assumed it would embody all of the attributes that their prior Lincoln's possessed, sans size.

For Lincoln to chage their image, they simply need to stick with the program they've begun . . . keep on improving the LS and trying to attract their target market. Eventually, the current loyalist crowd, as cold as this sounds, will die off, and with them, much of the existing percetion. As long as the LS maintains its sporting nature and begins to grow the enthusiast crowd through autocross and other such events, Lincoln and the LS will enjoy a bright future.

leadfoot4

Maybe L-M should do what others have done with success......Go RACIN', sedan style!!

akirby

Where? NASCAR won't take it - it's not a FWD V6. :-)

As well as it performs, I think the LS is a bit too heavy and bulky for trans am or similar series. What we need is a new touring car series for bigger cars.

Hey - maybe Gran Turismo 4 will have a LS or McLaren LSE.

jhoffman61

I would bet that many of the people who bought an LS as "just a car" will end up liking it's attributes but not knowing why.

What Lincoln needs to do is get the message out as to WHY they like their cars - otherwise those people will end up buying some other vehicle based on it's color and then realize they do not like it as much as the LS. Kind of like what happens when we get into rental cars, it really makes you appreciate the virtues of the LS.

Perhaps that is what the travel well ad campaign can impart.

PS. While the LS is great, the NVH and sport suspension compliance could be improved. I don't think that is a invalid knock from the "unwashed".

Kirstie_H

A major daily newspaper is looking for people who bought used luxury cars with the idea of moving upscale at discounted prices only to find out that the cost of parts and service was greater than expected. Were you surprised or shocked by the cost of routine maintenance and common repairs like mufflers, brakes, shocks and struts, transmissions, headlight replacement, etc.?

If so, please send an e-mail containing your contact information and vehicle description to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, June 12.

lolaj42

is far greater than what you would find on a BMW "M" series.

jhoffman61 - If you consider the "compliance" to be "softness", the LS sport is, by FAR, the softest riding car I've ever owned. If anything, I would like to see the LS sport stiffened a bit to increase it's already tenacious cornering ability.

As far as NVH improvement goes, I know some LS owners have had problems with vibration issues, a drone attributed to half-shafts, and other such problems. I attribute this to variability in the mass production process that Lincoln could perhaps improve upon. However, I do not believe that most LS owners, or even 90% of the LS driving community considers the LS to suffer from NVH issues. My 2000 LS Sport with 23K miles on the clock has been tomb quiet, well-fitted, and tight as a drum in over 2 1/2 years of ownership.

At the time I purchased my LS, I only considered the BMW 5 series and Audi A6 (2.7T w/ Quattro). These and the LS are performance sedans . . . not the Cattera (Caddy's offering at the time) or any other car at the time. Both of these Geman cars are much more stiffly sprung than average, and maybe even more so than the LS sport (though it's close). After driving all of these cars, I felt the LS achieved BETTER handling mostly due to better balance, but also due to a suspension well tuned for the dynamic weight transfer that occurs during cornering, braking, and acceleration.

The vast majority of LS drivers that complain about sport suspension compliance should never have gotten into the LS sport and would have been better served going with a non-sport LS or an Avalon.

akirby

If you read the reviews of the new S-type it appears that the suspension and chassis improvements have significantly improved the ride quality without sacrificing handling. I would expect to see the same improvements in the 2003 LS. IIRC that was where the 5-series got the nod from reviewers over the LS, not cornering ability. Michelins could also help. With the added power, revised interior, revised 2nd gear ratio (OD) and possible rear gear change it should be an even more serious contender than it already is. Although I hold no hope that the automotive journalists will feel the same way. At least they'll be forced to take a new look at it. I haven't seen a real review in almost 2 years.

cdnpinhead

I've not taken the time to actually get data to support this premise, but isn't the LS among the heavier (if not "est") cars in the category. As someone in one of the other boards that I monitor pointed out, all else equal, the lighter car always wins.

It's wonderful that our car doesn't dive into stops (no matter how quick), and that all four wheels break loose at about the same time, but the LS is competing with vehicles that (I think) all weigh less.

Is the wonderful suspension really heavy? Can't all be due to the thick glass, can it? Is anyone at Lincoln looking at ways to reduce the weight, or at least explain it in a really positive way? If a past post that posits a 240 hp 6 is correct for 2003, that'll help a lot. . .at least for those who don't want a manual transmission.

Given time, I'd look up what the A6, the new Caddy, the BWM 5, the G35, the hot Passat, and several others weigh. I'm lazy and realize that there are folks who monitor these boards who have all this stuff at their fingertips.

Then there's that ULEV thing.

lolaj42

I don't put much stock in reading about someone else's assessment of ride quality and comparison between cars. Ride quality is a very subjective driving parameter, and can be influenced by a myriad of factors other than suspension. Tire attributes, such as pressure, and size have as much an influence on ride quality as suspension tuning. FWIW, in my critical assessment 2 1/2 years ago, I could not discern a significant difference in overall ride quality between the LS Sport and the German models. Dealership locations (which, to a degree, dictated the roads and surfaces I drove over) and the OEM tire and inflation levels were "uncontrolled" variables in this comparison, yet the ride aspects were quite similar. I only mentioned my preference for the LS sport over the German models due to my perception of better handling.

My point remains that people who knock the LS sport suspension would have been better served in a non-sport model or something else altogether.

airwolf1000

Keyrow,

As always thanks for your input. I knew Armorall sounded fishy but Silicone is what I had heard from a dealer for my Mercury Capri.. Seals are very important in Convertibles. I will definitely buy one of the products you mentioned.. And not Silicone my vehicle...

As always thanks for your advice!

Regards
Airwolf

funkcity

If the LS is heavy, where is the weight?
Aluminum Hood, fenders, trunklid etc...
Aluminum Engine... etc...
Smallish gas tank (too small for me anyway;)
Where is the weight?
Trans, seats, doors, suspension etc.?
Anyone have a clue? Is there any one major contributor? Hmm...

lolaj42

Steve, I guess I have too much time on my hands, as I've just done a quick and dirty look at all the models you suggested. Here's the low-down on 2002 models (from Edmunds data) . . .

LS6 Sport-Man 3602 lbs 220 hp
LS6 Sport-SST 3640 lbs 220 hp
LS8 Sport-SST 3734 lbs 252 hp

Audi A6 - 3Q 3770 lbs 220 hp
A6-2.7TQ 3759 lbs 250 hp (manual)
A6-2.7TQ 3924 lbs 250 hp (tiptronic)

BMW 530(man) 3494 lbs 225 hp
540(man) 3748 lbs 290 hp
540(auto) 3803 lbs 290 hp

Infiniti G35 3369 lbs 260 hp

Caddy CTS 3509 lbs 220 hp

VW Passat W8 3907 lbs 270 hp

While heavy, the LS is not the heaviest, nor the smallest.

cdnpinhead

Thanks, Chris.

I actually had several hundred pounds added to the LS's weight in my mind, even though it isn't actually in the car. Once I sit in any of the lighter cars, it's all moot (I'm not a lightweight). It looks like all the relevant cars are within a couple hundred pounds of each other. Take out the spare, leave the passengers at home, etc. Simple measures eliminate the difference.

ezaircon4jc

Chris, I'm hurt . Comparing my non-sport to an AVALON . Ask The Kahuna what it takes to keep up with me in the twisties. I can still hit the corners at twice the posted speeds. There's a 90º near my house posted 20. 50 is almost at the drift stage.

As to weight, IIRC the suspension is 400 pounds of aluminum. As quiet as the car is, there must be a boatload of sound deadening stuff.

I just found out yesterday. 85mph in a 65mph is $136. If you want traffic school, it's $165 plus the cost of the school. HUH???? I guess I'll save traffic school for a more serious lack of attention to the rear view!

lolaj42

I was only trying to suggest that if the LS sport's suspension was not compliant enough, that they should have more thoughtfully considered the non-sport. The remark about the Avalon was merely my attempt at being facetious. ;-)

uh, I guess I missed the mark!:-O

Besides, Mike, I thought you now characterize your car a SS (as in semi-sport?)

jhoffman61

Chris, I am not saying the NVH is unacceptable, but with 34k and almost 3 years of northern climate roads (Chicago), the weaknesses in NVH are more noticeable than I would bet you experience in AZ. I stand by my opinion of a need for better compliance in the shocks/suspension and a need for improved NVH.

That said, I love my LS and plan to buy another one if the rumored 400hp model comes to pass (gee, I wonder how stiff that suspension will be)!

lolaj42

Do you think other sport sedans (Audi, BMW, G35, et. al.) have any NVH weaknesses induced by northern roads? If you attribute the NVH weaknesses and "less than optimum" compliant shocks/suspension to extended/prolonged exposure to the Chicago area's potholed roads, do you think other sport sedans will fare any better over the same driving regimen?

You are right in that I do enjoy better than average road surfaces out here in Arizona. Our nearest comparison to a pothole is when they re-surface our city streets without first scraping the previous layer of asphalt off and then leave a 3-inch height differential with the man-hole covers! While hitting these can be jarring, it's no pothole/crater that I've had the misfortune of driving through up north. Where the roads are paved in Arizona, they are usually smooth.

stanny1

Something strange here. The 2003 S-type is being offered with the 240 hp V-6 and the Getrag and Lincoln is dropping this combo. I bet fewer people will buy this combo as a Jaguar.
Do you think Jaguar is out to change it's image?
Or since they charge more for a Jag, this combo won't be such a $$$ loser?
At least I could get a DEW98 with a Manual by buying the S-Type. I look forward to the first mag test of this new S. It sounds as if the 2003 Jags are not waiting for November to debut.
Hey, if I buy a Jag with the manual, can I still race you guys at Mania 5? Or are you going to call me cross-gender names if I buy one?

stanny1

Mike, is this #2 in a month or so? Are you on a roll for an award here? We could have an award category at Mania 4 for "Most Money Paid Out to a Government Agency While Driving An LS" or "Most Driver Ed Curriculum Hours Spent By An LS Driver" or "Most CHP Recognized Lincoln LS".
I have a feeling my speeding ticket will come when they find my car about 100 yards from some curve I slid off of. They will figure my speed from the skid marks or the distance traveled while sideways. My insurance company will have a cow when they get the bill for re-landscaping from Caltrans.

akirby

Remember - the manual S-type will be sold in Europe while the LS won't. Since Caddy is the new target for Lincoln and the CTS offers a manual I think there's a possibility that Lincoln will keep it. The added power should help sales. OTOH I wouldn't be surprised if it gets the axe. Besides, wouldn't you rather wait for the 400 HP 6-spd manual? I'm betting it even comes with a LSD.

If you do get the S-type we won't call you names. Although you do have to wonder how easy it will be to operate the clutch wearing that skirt. :-)

cdnpinhead

with the '03 S-type, you'll get a 240 hp manual, a better interior and. . . you can impress the &*%^$ out of your clients with your day-to-day use of the vehicle. Sounds like a win to me!

Lease on!!!

heyjewel

Stan et al;

Have I missed something? Is there new information about the LS Getrag since we asked Jonathon at Mania III? I mean, he was totally non-commital but no one said for *sure* that the manual was history. Course, if it is, then we have a piece of history, eh Stan? :>)

George

mbnut1

Yes other sport sedans deal with the northern rodes better than the LS. Back to back driving an A4 with sport suspension 60K + miles and the LS sport (brand new) shows the A4 to have better NVH characteristcs than the LS without much if any sacrifice in handling capability. as Autoweek said, " the steering ... is quick, has good feel and is progressive. However there is a distressing amount of vibration coming through the steering wheel".

I'm not trying to knock the LS it's just wish it's NVH characterisitcs were as good as the German sedans. To me its the one and only flaw the LS has. I'm hoping for improvements to the 2003 in this area.

stanny1

I would like nothing better than to trade my 2000 Manual (next June when the lease is up) for a 2003 240hp Getrag LS. I think the engine will totally change the character of the car with the availability of a wider torque band (hp #'s aren't everything). The article about the 03 Jags in R&T didn't specify that the Manual would be Europe only.
I guess I'll have to take European delivery in that case, and get used to the dress at the same time. Maybe just earrings would suffice.
No one is talking about the 03 LS Getrag. I should have stopped by my LM dealer a couple months ago and tried to order a 2002 Manual. Maybe the dealers have 03 order info, eh?

kemo

I know I have a better chance of getting ice water in hell, but I thought I would give it a shot. What's the chance of getting one of you guys to email (B_Graham2006@yahoo.com) the images of the 2003 LS posted in April 29. I never new that so much emotion could be tied up into the pitfalls and triumphs of one company (FoMoCo). I thought I was silly until I meet you guys. Here I feel I fit, rarely post, I often just lurk. You guys have even more emotion caught up in this company than I do. Hey but you already have your LS. Anyway I finally thumbed through a number of the threads last night and I must comment on a couple of things. First, granted great marketing can make or break a product, however, if the product is revolutionary enough, stylish enough, creditable (performance, quality, prestige, etc.) it will sell itself. Perfect example, the Lexus SC 430 or new Mercedes C-class , who even remembers the commercials of there initial launches? So all that gibberish concerning the "travel well" campaign is bogus. Yeah Yeah is not what we wished for but its up to lincoln to design a product that generates making heat sans "travel well" . A commercial featuring the full lincoln range may be seen at www.adage.com.
Second, as far as Lincoln cars are concerned does anyone (Jr, JM, AF,etc. include)really know what's coming down the pipeline?

Looking to purchase soon,

Brad

scottc8

OK, so some people want less NVH, some want less weight. How about a compromise, a very (but not extremely) smooth & quiet car that's not terribly heavy. Hey, I think there's one in my garage!

Vic, I've always wondered about autocrossing the S2000. Do you ever have to shift out of 1st gear?

johnnylinc

The photos of the black '03 LS Sport were removed from the Volvo board & I didn't get copies. I can, however, provide the next best thing. Here's a link to a Detroit News (brief) article with a couple of Brenda Priddy snapshots of what's purported to be an '03. It's obviously a non-Sport, and one of the guys in the LS club says he thinks it's a preproduction prototype & not exactly an '03, but it still looks pretty much like the pictures of the black one, IIRC.

http://pc99.detnews.com/autosinsider/sneakpeek/index.hbs?myrec=31

Hope this helps a bit...

JLinc, LLSOC charter member

funkcity

Not really in the same class as the LS.

When I test drove the LS6 and LS8, the 6 really FELT more responsive in the handling department.
The 100 lbs or so on the front end really made the difference to me.