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Comments
Brian Gowing
Founder/President
Lincoln LS Owners Club
The first is that I've noticed is that the V8 is really fast but that my V6 with the sports suspension has so much more road feel that it's much more enjoyable to drive. I can't believe the difference. Mine honestly does drive like the BMW 5 series, but the V8 with the regular suspension is very, very "smooth."
The second is: This moonroof thing. I've never had a car without a moonroof, but I've never had an aftermarket moonroof installed. The Lincoln dealer swears that it's a beautiful thing, but I'm pretty scared. I'd never, ever have done it if I had bought my car. As it is, it's leased for three years with complete maintenance with a comp. rental car anytime I bring mine in for service but still....What do you think? Will it totally wreck the car? Having second thoughts, but a little too late.
As for the moonroof - I think today's aftermarket roofs can be just as good as a factory roof. You should get a warranty from the dealer (or at least from the installer). In fact, my dealer never ordered a moonroof on stock vehicles. They had a shop that would add them if the customer wanted it. The only down side (and the reason I ordered mine from the factory instead of using their aftermarket installers) is that it won't be tied into the global open and close feature.
Just make sure the installation looks good and everything fits ok and there's a warranty and it should be fine.
One of the many Lincoln dealers I went to when shopping had all after market moon roofs. It appeared that the motivation was that they made more money on the aftermarket ones than the factory ones.
First, I have to say that it does seem to be tied in to the electrial system in that it actually closes when I turn the ignition off. Would you believe it? That's a good thing.
The other thing I did notice almost right away is that when the roof is fully opened, at as little as 45 mph, the car is kind of pulling or reacting to the wind. Bouncing? It's hard for me to describe this. When I close the moonroof even half way, the problem goes away. I guess it's just something that I'll have to live with as I don't imagine that it will ever go away. Truthfully, I'd rather have half a moonroof than none at all. The car looks really beautiful.
What I was saying before about the sports suspension is that I really did notice a considerable difference in how the car handled with the sports suspension than without it now that I've driven both for a while. I much prefer the sports version.
Old world craftsmanship doesn't begin to describe this setup. The door and it's mechanism were over kill to the nth degree. Why use one screw when you can put 8? why use one size fastener when 10 will confuse? The same repair that took 3 hours on the jag was performed in 30 minutes on my daughters VW Fox. Design for manufacturabiltiy was not an issue with Jag back then. No wonder they were headed down the crapper. The ironic part is also that all the complexity didn't make it any better just more complex.
Ray Chartrand
Charter member llsoc
As for the buffeting, see if there is a wind deflector at the front - on the factory roof it's a very small piece of plastic that lifts up when the roof is open and provides an ever so subtle but obviously beneficial deflection of air. If you don't have one you can add one (looks like a vent-visor for the windows) that mounts in front. It sticks up 2 or 3 inches so it will change the looks but it should prevent the buffeting.
I think the LS will out handle it all wheel drive or not. Maybe I was just more adept at driving the LS but I had much more confidence going 30 MPH over the posted speed on a SoCal on/off ramp than I do with the Jag. When you read the jagtalk BB you would think they were all lemons but I think this is a product of the board mentality where most posters have problems. I have almost 8,000 on mine and have had nothing but leaking windshield washers. Could not be happier. Would I buy another LS? In a SoCal second. Except for the crashing windoze, best car I ever owned.
Jerry
Also Ford has good stuff on website to help you counter dealer re: excess wear. They showed examples of dents they caonsider excess wear. They are huge and mke my dings look like nothing.
I pay 527 form a lease entered into in 4/00. They used a higher cap cost than I did in calculating whether I was getting hosed. But theri number was 75 less than what I calculated. Go figure
I feel your pain. I'm paying more than you and I've been doing it since 10/1999. I'd go into a 2003 if I could, but I'm on the 5 year lease plan because I was so upside down on my old car.
First, it is simply supply and demand. When I leased my '00 the LS was new, in demand and selling for around $1,000 over invoice. Now the '02 LS which has only minor revisions from the '00 is a 3+ year old design, so naturally prices have to be lower in order to move them, so they are selling at invoice + local marketing charge, less the $3,000 factory rebate.
Second, when I leased my LS I was able to take advantage of a special lease rate and residual that was in effect for the NY market. The best I can figure is my lease is essentially the same as the current NY market promo, except for the $3,000 rebate.
Now on to leasing a '02 under the current NY market promo.
The total lease cost consists primarily of 2 factors.
1. Use of the car (also called rent charge). This is a per mile rate, and it does not change with cap cost reduction, nor with different MSRP's or discounted cost.
2. Depreciation. This number will make a big difference in the lease rate. The residual is very important in determining this number as are any dealer discounts, rebates applied to cap cost reduction etc. This is called the money factor. To determine the depreciation part of the monthly lease you take the cap cost (discounted price) less the residual value at the end of the lease and multiply it times the money factor.
The total lease payment becomes the mileage cost (total miles x mileage rate / 36) + the depreciation x money factor. On top of this taxes are added in.
Unfortuntaly I can't find all my notes from my lease, but I believe that it cost 11.34 cents per mile of usage. Which corresponded to $141 / month @ 15,000 miles per year. Or in other words at the base mileage of $12,000 miles / year usage is about $113 per month. This means that on a $399 / month lease the depreciation part would be $286 month.
Now assuming that the V-8 LS is selling at invoice + local marketing charge the cap cost for the NY special should be $35,446 less $1,995 less $3000 = $30451. The residual should be 53% of MSRP or $20,208. This makes the depreciation $10,242. The money factor should then be .0279. Meaning that if you kept the $4,995 your monthly payment increase should be $140, or at 12,000 miles a year the total monthly payment for $0 down (without taxes) should be $539 a month instead of $399 with $4,995 down. (because of the special lease rate this coincidentally is within a buck a month of just taking $4,995 / 36 = `139)
This means that you will pay $5,040 over 36 months to have $4,995 more in your pocket today.
This sounds like a good deal to me.
One more thing, according to the Lincoln web site if you are a renewing Red Carpet lease customer you are elligible for an additional $1,000 back, which would make it an even better deal, that is you get $5,995 in your pocket today to pay out $5,050 more over 3 years.
At this rate the current lease deal is almost too good to be true!
I got so frustrated with the finance person at one dealer I just got up and walked out of her office and said "forget it".
Even the dealer I leased from left me with a bit of a bad taste. They started out pretty good, getting down to an acceptable discounted price with no hassles. They also did a much better job clearly explaining how the lease works and how the amounts are calculated than any other dealer I went to. However on the lease end we had a big go around with the NY special rate as they were located in Ford's Boston area so they told me I couldn't get the special rate. Had to bring in the general manager and call Ford Credit to get the determination that your eligibility is determined by the zip code where you live (I live in Ford's NY area) and not where the dealer is located. To me any person remotely involved in sales should know that, especially since this dealer is only about 20 miles from Ford's NY / Boston area lines. So the question comes up are most of the people at the dealer just dumb or were they trying to hose me and get me to pay more? Next we went through the same fire drill with the residual value as the NY lease special gave a slightly higher residual (1 or 2%).
Next when I went to sign the papers and pick up the car $125 had been added for a documentation fee and $275 for license & registration. I felt that I had been told everything but registration ws included. It costs less than $100 to register a car here, and I have no idea what license they are talking about so $275 seems high. We of course had a big fight about it and ended up spliting the difference. One more tip for buyig or leasing a car, do it at the end of the month so they are more desparate to get you to sign. I scheduled my pickup on the last day of the month.
Finally, when we went through the total lease numbers I had them clearly spell out what was for the car, what was sales tax and what was property tax. The final paperwork had the property tax part bundled into the number with only sales tax broken out. This means that I ended up paying sales tax on the property tax part of the lease, which just shouldn't be so. I know it's not much (around $100 over the lease term) but there is no way that you are supposed to pay a tax on another tax.
I've been keeping kind of quiet about the things that they screwed up with because I've been catching the mistakes they've made and have managed to get things fixed and also because they want me to give them a good review; but if that's true, too, it's going to start to bug me.
Can someone verify whether this is really so? My dealer is all too aware that I am a returning Red Carpet customer. It came up because they tried to charge me damage for my car that was insured by my previous lease, and they had to pay me $750 back, after I signed the lease. It wasn't my salesman's fault as he was merely the person that took me for the test drive and wasn't in on the negotiations in any way at all as I had only spoken with the finance man, even on the phone, but someone had to take the fall for it, and they fired him. I feel pretty bad. They tried to tell me that they didn't owe me the money, and I finally lost my temper and got them to call Ford directly, and Ford told them that they really did owe me the money. Now they call me and tell me that they want to help me if I need anything so that I will give them a good review. I did end up with a good deal, kind of, but I don't feel great about the dealership. Now, if this is true, I feel worse.
The value of an LS at least according to Lincoln for their Lease Calculation after 3 years is about 47 or 48% for an LS(LSE has the 47%). I was looking at maybe Leasing about 3 months ago..
Interest Rate was 1.9 % at that time now its .5%
I could not justify it since I already own one.
After 5 years I could sell it and get about 10g's(Car Equity) for the car, thats 2.5 years away. I have done the whole analysis bit, how much I save by leasing for three years and selling my vehicle now vs. selling my car at 5 years and I come out ahead (in my case) by about $2-3K by holding on to mine.
Granted I am driving a newer vehicle, but no significant differences.. Until the 2003s but no incentives there.
Of course in a Lease no equity. Just paying for use.
Now if I wasn't in one the story might be different, but I am also hurt as far as leasing a vehicle is concerned by the Fact that I live in Texas and the Tax Laws if I am correct call for paying all of the Sales tax even though I am only using a portion of the vehicles useful life..
Just my 2 shillings worth!
Then I get 3 calls at home wanting to know if I was happy about service. They never called me at work though that was the number on the receipt. Wife told them I was p.o 'd but didn't know why. Never called back.
1) Depreciation charge - the financed capitalized cost less the residual value divided by the number of months is the depreciation charge.
2) The lease charge or rent charge - The financed capitalized cost plus the residual value times the money factor.
The are variations on this, but this is in fact how most closed end consumer leases are calculated. The money factor is sometimes quoted as a percentage. You divide the percentage by 24 (always) to get the money factor.
You pay for two things on a lease - depreciation and borrowing someone else's money. The best lease deal has the lowest cap cost, highest residual, and lowest money factor you can get. The Lincoln leases over the last year or so are subvented leases. That is, the factory subsidizes the leases by artificially low cap costs, high residuals, and/or low money factors.
My lease (5/01) was a red carpet lease (3yr/36,000) capped at 6.5% over dead cost, 53% residual (when ALG said it was 45%), and an interest rate of 1.99% or a money factor of .00828. No money down, no security deposit, Lincoln made the first payment to boot. You don't buy at those kind of lease rates.
Or is it "Bah!"?
Again note that the biggest factor in the lease cost is depreciation. The mileage charge and the interest on the depreciated amount is about 1/3 of the depreciation. Looking at another way if the finance charge was 0% it would only save $16.75 / month ($603 for the 36 month lease).
Present lease rates: They seem too good to be true, like you are paying for the depreciation at almost 0% interest, which of course 0.5% is pretty close to 0.
Residual value: Red Carpet can put any residual value on the car they want (well I guess they only had that amount of flexibility if their auditors used to be Anderson). Adjusting the residual value is an easy way to lower or raise the montly lease payment in order to move vehicles given the market conditions. There has been a lot of talk in the press about the attractive lease deals that both Ford & GM are offering. The true street price (let alone wholesale) is often way below the lease residual when the vehicle is turned in. In one of the last articles I saw they said that the manufacturering arm gets stuck with the shortfall not the leasing division.
When I did my analysis almost 3 years ago I came to the conclusion that I could lease 2 LS's over a 6 year period for the same amount that is would cost me to buy 1 LS and own it for 6 years. With the present lease deals, leasing is an even better deal. It looks like I can turn in my '00 LS and get an identical '02 LS for around $50 a month less than what I am paying now, plus the '02 includes scheduled maintanence. I really want to hold out for an '03, but it is real tempting to settle for an '02 right now and get an '03 (or '04) when there are all kinds of rebates and lease specials on them and when some of the "late availabily" items on the '03 LS are really available.
Airwolfe: As stated above Red Carpet adjusts the residuals as needed to move vehicles and it can be different from one part of the county to another. My residual IS 53% of MSRP (again keep in mind the residual is calculated on MSRP not discounted street price). At the time I leased the residual for customers living in Ford's NY region was 53%, but it was 51% if you lived in the Boston region. I guess that it says to me either NYers will pay more for used cars or Boston drivers do more damage to their cars during the lease.
I guess there is one good deal in over taxed CT, that is we pay sales tax only on the montly lease amount, not the cap cost of the car. We have property taxes on cars in CT, which is a screw job, but again leasing the car means that I pay lower property taxes than owning because it is again based on the lease cost not the cap cost of the car.
As of right now it looks to me that to make ownership come out better than leasing I'd have to keep the car for 7 years or more, which I'm not inclined to do.
I keep thinking that the leasing party will be over one day, but as of right now the LS lease deals seem too good to be true.
Scott: You are right, the deals on an '02 LS in August '02 don't mean a heck of a lot when you need a car in January '00. The only thing that matters is what the deal is when you need to buy.
As far as residual value goes, if the real value according to the market is less than the residual at the time I turn the car in about 1 year, am I responsible for the loss of value?
Since I have the orphaned MTX, do you guys think they will REALLY want me to buy this thing at lease end? And give me a super deal, considering how difficult it is to sell a used MTX (probably worse than selling a new MTX)?
Stanny1, who can't believe the cornering ability of my LS on S0-3's, despite the punishing ride.
As for getting a super deal, others have reported that Ford will sell you the vehicle for the price that was pre-set in the lease, even if that price is a lot higher than the current market value. And they won't cut you a deal. Seems they would rather take it to auction and get a lower price than to lower the selling price to you from what was in the lease. Probably don't want to set a precedent. Seems foolish but it's easier to enforce the contract than renegotiate each one individually.
that I could lease 2 LS's on 3 year leases for about the same amount as buying 1 LS and owning it for 6 years.
Since it is getting near the end of my present lease, I dug out all my calculations from 3 years ago and want to make the following points.
1. The determination that leasing 2 LS's over 3 years was the same as buying one and driving it for 6 years includes deductions for business use of the car. The tax deduction when leasing can be larger than owning which is my case. And of course this factor can vary greatly depending on the percentage of business use, your Federal tax bracket and if you are subject to state income tax.
2. The calculation was based on comparing a lease to a cash purchase, and investing the money not spent on the cash purchase over 6 years (principal drawn down at the rate of the lease payments). As we all know typical investment returns are drastically lower than they were 3 years ago, which of course alters the calculations today.
3. Because of the high property taxes and sales tax where I live tax treatment of these items also favors a lease in my case.
4. 6 year purchase senario includes an ESP.
5. There is some uncertainty in the purchase calculations as we do not know the actual value of a 6 year old LS Since there are no 6 year old LS's I made an assumption it will be about 35% of MSRP. As Allen stated one of the advantages of a lease is that you know up front what the residual value is.
6. There is an additional caveat. This purchase calculate is based on privately selling your old car in 6 years, not trading it in as in most cases you will receive substantially less for trading in vs. selling privately. If you trade in buying is still cheaper, but the gap to leaseing is narrowed significantly.
In the case of not having tax deductions for business use of the car, and due to the present lower finance rates (and return on investments) I calculate that owning 1 car for 6 years is lower cost than leasing 2, 3 years each.
The lowest total cost of ownership is buying and driving it for a long time and with the present finance rates verses investment return rates buying on a loan can be lower cost than a cash purchase.
Finally, if you want a new car every 3 or 4 years, leasing still comes out very attractive verses buying and trading in every 3 or 4 years.
I bought my LS in the spring of '00. In preparation, I pulled money out of a few mutual funds in January of that year. I'd always rather be lucky than good, and I was.
If I'd left that money in the funds, I'd have lost much more than I did on the LS depreciation (even with a manual). Since I'm intending to drive the car several more years (reliability willing), I'm of the opinion I came out OK with purchasing.
I'm not self-employed, and have no other (legal) means of writing off lease payments. I often look at my LS as my gift from the 1999 run-up of the growth market.
http://hellsgate.online.ee/~mait/fahrschule.swf
The LS does not use the 4.6L V8. (yet)
Maybe you're thinking about the Marauder?
I actually am looking at keeping my '00 for 6 years and I came up with the same analysis you did hence I did not lease a vehicle. I will be selling and not trading in my vehicle. Also No Business deductions.
I agree with you on almost everything you said.
Good to Hear Red Carpet can play with residuals, Those were the residuals though 47% and 48% for the RCL I saw at the time (3 months ago).. Probably did it to compensate for the Lower Interest (Money Factor for lease folks).
Like I said though that 2004 HP LS. If its hot who knows I just might have to trade in at that time. Then again I might wait one year and let them work out any small kinks!
Regards,
Airwolf
CTS's average buyer is age 55 and 39.9% are women.
Although it has died down, I really enjoyed all the fighting and name calling, mostly directed at those Mania III attendees who were honoring their agreement not to disclose info on the '03 LS before Lincoln said it was OK.
Of course while this furror and name calling was going on most of the info on the '03 LS has been sitting in plain sight on a Ford web site.
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/releases.cfm?id=93
Click on the "2003 LS" link, which has been there since July 25.
Enjoy.
This time I decided to try a fix of my own. My theory was to provide venting so that as long as the air outside was less humid than the air in the lens, the water should evaporate.
Here's what I did: The hood was opened. Behind the clear lens, there is a flat black plastic area about about 3/4" wide just in front of the lens level indicator. Two 1/8" holes were drilled in this area one on either side of the level indicator.
After that, the car was driven normally. I think using the headlights during daylight driving may speed the evaporation process, but the process worked even when the car was sitting in the garage. If rain is forecast, simply tape over the holes for that day.
Patience is required as it took about ten days for my lens to clear out. Once clear, the holes were covered with a seal washer (rubber clad to a metal washer) and stainless #10 x 1/2" pan head sheet metal screw. It's been about a month and the lens has remained crystal clear. Should the lens fog in the future, the screws can be removed to repeat the process.
Total cost is about $0.50, so if your car is out of warranty or you don't want the hassle of bringing your car to the dealership, it may be worth a try.
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/releases.cfm?id=93
All in all, it's a big leap forward and a tiny baby step back.
I am a man of my word. If I had attended Mania III and given my word that I would not say anything until Aug 27 (or when Lincoln gave the OK) I would have done exactly as the Mania III attendess, that is kept my lips zipped.
I admire all the Mania III attendees forgiving their word and keeping it.
What I was doing with my prior post was throwing a jab at the people on this site who were chiding the Mania III attendees for keeping their word.
Instead of posting harsh words for the Mania III attendees, if those individuals had spent the same amount of energy doing some web surfing, they would have found most of the info themselves over a month ago.
I refrained from posting links to the '03 LS info because is was apparant that it was on the public area of the web site by mistake. I decided that I didn't want to be the one to take advantage of that mistake.
so what do u recommend me to do,and what's the problems with the 2000 models .....
thank you
It was, however, available on another forum that I won't mention.
so what do u recommend me to do,and what's the problems with the 2000 models .....
thank you