There's no doubt that cars are much safer today than they were 20 years ago. To those of us who carefully modulated our brakes on snow-covered roads while steering with a finger or two (to better feel the feedback), the ABS thing sounds overblown. OTOH, I went to great lengths to get a minivan w/ ABS for my wife (& kids, I might add) to drive back in '94 when it wasn't at all standard. The major point of my earlier post was that I object to huge expense & complexity being inserted only because people are too lazy and/or stupid to use belts that are orders of magnitude less expensive & more effective.
Rene -- good motorcycle story w/ #1121 (unless it's changed, which it can do now). Good to hear from you
There is bias in favor of BMW. I have a 1998 528i and an LS. The wood in both is plastic and looks about the same to me. The tranny on the 528 shifts pretty roughly after 48500 miles. The LS is much smoother. It is a fine car but not significantly better than the LS. And the LS is much more fun to drive....
Let's face it, folks. If the LS had a blue & white roundel on the hood, they'd be fawning over it.
How about that "leatherette" upholstery at this price? When I met my wife-to-be in 1969, she had a base model '69 Chevy Nova with a vinyl interior and no A/C. As we suffered through the first 2 summers of our marriage with this thing, little did I know that that some 32 years later some auto writer would be extolling the virtues of same. I am gratifed that the writer's guilt is assuaged B/C no cows died in vain. I am certain that he buys only footwear that is non-leather, has a canvas wallet and never has a steak dinner. I'll bet his wife or girlfriend even has a leatherette handbag. Can you spell sour grapes?
And, oh yeah. I commuted to work by car for 22 years. I don't think a morning or evening passed when some testosterone-charged imbecile also decided to became "Mr. Wheeler" so as to not have to suffer the ignominy of looking at the back of my car. Of course, in this case they were not rewarded with the open road. Instead they got to see the backs of the hundreds of thousands other cars on the world-famous Long Island Expressway.
Hello Steve. I'm not sure what you meant "unless its changed, which it can do now." I still have the same motorcycle (1997 BMW R1100/RTA). The "A" indicates ABS brakes. My story is true.
After I got my first motorcycle with ABS brakes (a 1992 BMW K75/RT) I had to (re)train myself to be ready to fully use my front brake when needed instead of being so careful to avoid lockup. Lock up the front wheel on a bike, and you are down so quickly you won't know what hit you (voice of experience). A bike doesn't stop very quickly while sliding along on its saddle bags and crash guards.
It is important not to have to delay while figuring out how much traction the road surface can provide when someone pulls a sudden "lefto" in front of you. The fact that I could just react with violent braking when the old lady cut me off on my R1100 probably saved my bacon.
The effects of locking the wheels on a 4-wheel vehicle aren't as catastrophic as they are on a motorcycle, but the loss of steering is serious, and the stopping distance is significantly extended. I think ABS provides a HUGE real-world advantage under panic stop/avoidance circumstances when our "modulating" skills are most likely at a minimum.
I didn't write about you in a sly way; I thought it was blatently obvious. I also did not mean to snipe. The intent of my post (#1146) was to indicate that I would not persue this safety issue any further so as not to make it into another I6 vs. V6 unending battle. If I have offended you in any way I publicly apologize as I meant no disrespect; only that beating a dead horse might accord one an undesirable reputation for pig-headedness, whether deserved or not.
Perhaps Edmunds is biased, but there must be a reason behind it. As a road racer, one who appreciates the controls of the car (steering, handling, braking, acceleration), I think that Edmunds appreciates the same thing. Their reviews of performance cars always mention how satisfying the controls are, especially handling and steering. Even if they aren't racers themselves, they seem to be part of a group of people who love steering and handling above everything else, and I am one of them as well.
So this is my idea of why they like BMW's. The LS definitely edges the BMW in luxury, but not so for steering and handling. A BMW 3 and 5-series have envious vehicle dynamics, whether you're at 3/10's or 10/10's. The LS feels nice until about 7/10's. I think a BMW is a racecar in luxury clothing, the original sport sedan. The LS is a luxury car with improved vehicle dynamics, a sporty luxury car.
All the positive comments from Edmunds and the rest of the automotive press about BMWs should be an incentive for Lincoln & Jag to work all that much harder to improve the LS & S-type. There is room for improvement, as with all things, and healthy competition improves the breed in the long run. I say keep the bias coming if it makes Lincoln's designers, engineers, and marketers work twice as hard to overcome it!!!
I'm guessing the "bias" exists because during the '70s and '80s only BMW and Porsche were obsessively focused on driver-oriented performance cars. All of their platforms sold in the USA are far more performance oriented than the complete lines of their competitors. They have worked hard since the '50s to build and maintain their reputations.
Closest Detroit has come is the Corvette. But does anyone think the '76, '81, or '86 Corvettes were great cars then or today? Think of what happened to the T-bird in the late '50s onwards. Anyone remember the Mustang II? And Lincoln hasn't had a positive driver's orientation since the early '50s. Or look at a once great marque like Jaguar. The late '70s and '80s were mostly a performance nightmare. They are having to work hard to rebuild their once great fame.
I'm thinking about ordering a wood trim kit from Joshua Tree, but I can't decide on which wood style to get. I'd like to hear from somebody that has ordered from them on what they selected. Should I go with the "Factory Match", or what? I just bought a 2001 black sport with medium parchment interior...whew, what a fine car!!! Thanks for any help.
I test drove new 2dr & 4dr 328i's and used 528i's before I bought my LS. I don't understand what all the fuss about BMW's are. I think it's more preceived status than reality, like my yuppy friends who wouldn't want to be caught dead in anything but a Mercedes.
The 328 was a nice sporty car but too small and spartan. The steering wheel was manual adjust not auto & memory and it's "precise" steering was at times annoying because it was too skittish on our northern frost heaved and bumpy roads. A reasonably equiped 328i new, was also more expensive than a LS.
I didn't consider new 528's due to price. The old generation used 528 which was priced similar to the LS felt its age. The new generation used 528's drove similar to the LS but still felt smaller than the LS, had a bit more luxurious feel than the 328 but not necessasarily better than the LS. Next time I'm looking for a car I won't be considering BMW unless they drop their prices by 20%. IMHO your paying for status with those cars.
Forget luxury, forget horsepower, forget handling. The best thing about my LS is that it warms up faster than any car I have ever driven. The other day in 26 degree weather, it was blowing warm air withing 2 miles of starting it.
You can only get the factory match kit from Joshua Tree. I received their package two days ago and it is so well done that I can't tell the difference between the "fake" wood on the car and the real wood in the kit. When they say factory match they mean it. There are 3 variations on the kit so make sure you order the right one, depending if you have a sunroof. etc.
Don't forget to mention www.llsoc.com in the comments field or let the sales rep. know if you call in so you get the free shipping offer. If they have issues with it, tell them to ask Mike, the owner, about it.
I just added an icon on our site that will allow questions to be asked and answered in real-time, if I'm online. It's called Human Click and the icon is both on the main page and on the navigation bars for both the public and members-only area. If I'm not online it will tell you to leave a message which I get as soon as I go back online.
Does anyone have any information about whether the v8 will ever be offered with a manual trans? If this does not happen by 2002 I'll have to look at the jaguar x-type. I currently have an 2000 ls v8 non-sport. I love the engine and handling and everything else, but the transmission ratios do not make sense. A six speed manual would be perfect! Jim
After being out of service for the past two weeks I got my LS6 Sport back yesterday. My loaner was a new Town Car. I'm not complaining about the Town Car but what a pleasure to have my LS back. Last night we went for a spin around Fort Lauderdale. I feel like a kid at Christmas!
Has anyone heard if Lincoln will be offering the V8 with a manual trans? I have a 2000 LS V8 non-sport. The engine is wonderful, handling is great, everything is very nice, except the transmission. The gearing is horrible for this car. A manual would solve most things that are wrong with this car. I have certainly enjoyed driving it, but the manual would be SO much better. If no manual in the next year I will look to Jaguar X-Type with 3.0 and 5 speed. Jim
I was crawling around under my LS recently, & noticed something in the front suspension that I don't remember seeing in any other vehicle.
The front spindle/steering knuckle is a very tall piece, arcing up over the front tire. The upper ball joint is ABOVE the tire and seems to be positioned at about the tire centerline.
Zero scrub radius? Less sensitivity to externally-induced forces? ??????????????
Whatever it is, it sure looks like $$$. I'm guessing that you guys spent extra money to keep something undesireable from reaching/affecting the driver.
Is this something else we LS fanatics can brag about?
Count this "critic" in as hoping & praying for a future LS8 6-speed manual. I haven't seen anything conclusive indicating Lincoln is headed that way soon. Doubt Jag will do one for S-type, either.
If you really, really, really gotta 'ave a V-8 manual tranny sedan, 'ave you thought about a used BMW 540i? Good luck finding one, but it is a magnificent car. Just too darn expensive new. (I took my wife out on her birthday to dinner the other night. When I came out a beautiful BMW 635i manual was parked next to me. Guessing it was from '85-'88. I always wanted one. Wish BMW would revive the 6 Series. Or I could find a granny-driven low mile one in an Arizona barn.)
Why would you go to the Jag X-Type for a 3.0 5 speed to get a manual? Isn't it a V6? The LS already has the 3.0 5 speed. The X-Type won't be a competitor of the LS.
Check out the 3/01 C&D Preview of the X-type, pages 96-97. In many, though not all, ways the X-type could be comparable. Price range to be around $31-39K, depending upon options. Is AWD, based on the Ford Europe Mondeo (the former Contour on our side of the pond) FWD platform. Top model will have a 231 hp 3.0L V-6 using the S-type engine. Base uses a 194 hp 2.5L V-6. Jag reportedly claims the 3.0L X-type with 5-speed manual will go 0-60 in 6.6 secs. Weighing about 3,400-3,500 pounds, Car is bigger than 3 Series or C-class. Supposedly feels roomier than a Jag XJ8. Plus a 16 cubic foot trunk with full-size spare. There will be a Sport Pkg (w/P245/45-17s). And it has curtain airbags, a Jag first!
Lets see if the 3 Liter Jag and 3 Liter LS Sport are comparable. Jag has AWD, leather, real wood, 16 cu ft trunk, 0-60 in 6.6 seconds, weights less and has more power by 21hp. Much more sophisticated engine valvetrain. Jaguar pedigree. Are they comparable, I think so! I priced out a V6 Sport with the eqiup I want and it's over 37K List. Jag should be similar, although the Lincoln could be had for less. Would still like the LS V8 6 speed manual, if it's not available I will probably get the jag. Jim
Yes, I have considered the BMW, but would have to go to a 4 year old car to get similar price, I'm not sure that would be worthwhile. I Also looked at Audi S4, it's a fantastic automobile, just more than I want to pay. High 30's fit my budget. Also will look at 2002 Audi A-4 3.0 liter quattro. All can be had with manual, why not the Lincoln V8. Lincoln is probably looking at the number of manual LS's sold, (I saw a number at 3% somewhere) and figures there is no market for a manual with the v8. They need to understand that a manual ls v8 would attract a whole different group of people for a sub 7 second Lincoln. Jim
Most of the manuals that were listed were V6 - there aren't many V8 manuals due to the high torque requirements. Ford doesn't have an off the shelf manual that is smooth enough and will handle the torque. The good ones are very expensive ($3K IIRC) so it's a tough sell for Lincoln, especially with only 3% manuals so far. I think the best bet is for a SVT version somewhere down the road.
Well it has taken me almost 2 months to reach the end of the board. Oh what fun..... great board.
I picked up my 2000 V8 Sport Jan 8. It is/was a Ford HP car. What ever that means. It had 7,500 hi already. I now have 12,000 i. Yes I drive alot. In fact my last car died prematurely (<200,000) and I wasn't quite financially ready for a new S. So I had to settle fro this one for $30,997. shah hub? But enough about me, what about the AS?
Good Gad, do I love this car. From a fellow licensed mechanical engineer, congradulations Lincoln (Mr. Kupka) for what is truely an outstanding vehicle. It takes a compitent engineer/team to come up with a great machine for the kind of money BMW wants. It takes true talent, dedication and a tremendous amount of hard work to design a machine such as this for such a reasonable cost. Bravo, give your team a raise and my compliments. I could not suggest a single big-picture design change. The car is fundimenatlly RIGHT.
I do share the opinion of many of the detail oriented comments posted on this page. I also have one, what I consider significant, core engineering "tweak" you folks may wish to cansider in following generations.
The center section where the front door closes and the rear door hinges on causes a blind spot for me blocking my perifial vision. I have adjusted the mirrors and seat position several times but still have this problem. I understand that this section most likely contributes significantly to the rigidity of the car and any sacrifices here would be a tradgety, but perhaps this area could be designed as a parralellagram to reduce its impact on ones lign of sight. I noticed that the front winshield frame seems to be designed with a triangular crossection. Rigid yes, but it also sucsessfully reduces the amount of vision inparement the driver experiences from this member.
Just a thought.
Brian, I will be seing you folks at the LLSOC soon.
FWIW, I've seen a useful suggestion on using the spell check - look at what it wants to do, take what makes sense from it, hit the BACK button in your browser and make your own corrections, then post.
Or skip it altogether.....
Pat Host Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
I am a registered user of www.X-type.com so I am extremely interested in the baby Jag. I considered awaiting the X-type rather than getting the LS. Here is why I/myself/alone chose the LS. Although I am an empty nester I often have need to carry the grand kids (grandchildren are God's gift for not having killed your own children) so interior space was a significant factor. I have the V6 MANUAL and could not be more delighted, of course I would prefer a V8 manual LISTEN UP LINCOLN! I also believe most of the introductory problems of the LS have been addressed, whereas the Jag is just beginning to realize what those problems are. I do not need a cavernous trunk so that is insignificant. I am not a fan of AWD, I believe a competent driver with RWD is superior, AWD may start quicker in icy conditions but a knowledgeable driver can overcome this, AWD is just not a significant factor for me. Most importantly, the involvement of Lincoln Engineers is INVALUABLE and was probably THE selling point which convinced me to purchase this car. No other manufacturer allows/encourages its engineers to answer customers' concerns or gives such dedication to a car! Jaguar, like BMW, will take your money and run. Plus, if you do happen to be unfortunate enough to have a break down consider how many Ford dealers are available to repair your car vs. how many Jaguar dealers there are around the country. I did not make a mistake choosing the LS! Consider carefully, The LS is a proven design, just ask anyone here. Paraphrasing Al Gore, the Jag X-type is a risky scheme. For me, the LS is top dog. However, only you can decide which car fits YOUR needs. Good Luck.
I take AutoWeek and (because of a really cheapo deal) Motor Trend. I'm overloaded with info now so I'll take your word for what CD says. I took Road & Track for at least 25 years but when the owner/editor John Bond passed away the mag changed. AutoWeek gives me great synopsis of many cars along with owners comments on new cars they have purchased. And it comes EVERY week! Anyway, Brock Yates & crew are a little too flip for my taste
Rene (& others) -- my comment was directed at your posting number. Unlike the old Edmunds software, when postings are deleted, either by the poster or the host, the system renumbers all subsequent posts. There are never skipped numbers like there were from time to time with the old system. What that means is that you can make a reference to a posting number at some point, but the posting associated with that number can change.
I have also considered the things you have mentioned about the x-type. My plan is to drive one this fall and order for delivery next year, to give them time for bug fixes. I guess I will try to find an LS manual to test drive. I did drive one before I got mine and the seat of the pants power of the v8 got to me. I actually had ordered the manual, but deliveries were pushed back at introduction, so I changed to the v8. I am also an empty nester, no grandchildren yet, but also do a lot of projects so utility is important to me occasionally. Jim
Can't believe you don't like Brock. Or C&D. Brock Yates is the man! I'm not yet 40 but I've been religiously reading him for well over 20 years. Thank heaven for Brock. And C&D. I can live without R&T, MT, Automobile, and AutoWeek (I subscribe to the first two and let the latter two lapse this past year), but I can't imagine a month without C&D.
You should read some of Brock's books. I most strongly recommend his 1983 classic, "The Decline and Fall of the American Automobile Industry". Just pulled out my well-worn copy. Check out pages 204-208. His description of Cadillac's proving ground circa 1966 is priceless. The then engineers' disdain for 4-wheel disc brakes and IRS is still symptomatic of so much of today's Detroit that eschews developing and selling all around high performance automobiles! It is one of the reasons people like him have a "bias" toward marques like BMW, Porsche, or MB. He was there when they were routinely using readily available technology, like IRS or 4-wheel disc brakes, to make their cars better when Detroit wouldn't 'cause they didn't feel the need when they dominated over 90% of the U.S. market. Oh, how times have changed, and for the better.
LS-8 4.6L DOHC 350-400HP with a six-speed manual? Think people would beat a path to Lincoln's door? Especially if it was set up to not disturb the handling?
Hey! I never realized that the posting numbers would change... That's a good thing to watch out for when seeing references that may no longer make sense. Hmmm... couldn't Edmunds just KEEP the old numbers and leave a few holes? That would be better.
I'd need to know/learn a little more about this engine, particularly its overall weight. I'm a little skeptical about dropping this motor into the LS without disturbing the weight distribution, and subsequently the handling. Obviously, I'd love the added oomph under the hood, but not necessarily at the expense of increased NVH and handling.
I think it would speak volumes for Lincoln to mate that powerplant with a manual transmission, but, alas, I rather enjoy my SST transmission (OK, maybe a slight change in the gear ratios could be in order). I've owned 2 seater sports cars (red of course) with manual transmissions, but, in my mind, they were sports cars . . . not sport sedans. While I appreciate the desire of others to row-your-own, IMHO, I'd rather have the SST set up.
Unless the overall weight of the 4.6L is equal to, or less than the Jag 3.9/4.0, I would wait to see how the additional weight affects the handling (not to mention the price!) My 2 cents.
Hello, fellow LS owners! I hit the 500 mile mark yesterday. Love the car ('01 V8 Sport Package), but am a little concerned about gas mileage. I'm getting about 11.4 mpg around town. I can almost see the gas needle drop. Will the mileage improve with more breaking in? I do not have a heavy gas foot! Thanks. Also, wonder how the Joshua Tree wood parts compare with the Exotic Wood Dash line. Finally, I noticed that the metal support hooks behind both mufflers already show significant rust. Is this a problem? Thanks again.
I find that the gas mileage computer is very helpful as it shows me that I, too have a heavy foot. I have gotten better as I had horrible mileage caused by dumb habits. As I see the mileage plummet it encourages a softer touch. Of course, when I want to go, I don't look or I reset it.
As to the comparative quality, I only have some web cruising and the installation last week of the Joshua trim product, but I would be shocked if there was a nickels worth of difference on this. I am convinced that there are probably only one or two manufacturers of these trim products which are then retailed by several retailers. I note that when I got my Joshua wood product last week, it came from somewhere else and there was a blanked invoice on it that said ship to (me) bill to (an individual, obviously the principal of Joshua Wood Trim). If this were their factory, why bill anyone? It is obviously a factory that sells to more than one retailer.
Having said that, I am totally satisfied with my Joshua Wood trim that is plastic, remarkably like the plastic that came from the factory. It was cheaper than some of the others and the quality is excellent. I did not use the pieces for the overhead light (called a console for some reason) and the piece for the top of the console as I thought it looked stupid and too much, but that is personal. I also think the rear door parts are kind of hokey looking. Try them on before you put them on as they expose too much plastic and look kind of silly (again, IMHO). I wish I had not put them on as the individual ash tray trim just looks added on. I may remove them. It is the only part I used that I wish I had not. I would have preferred to have a choice as to which parts to order, and they are so cooperative at Joshua Wood trim that they probably would have worked with me, but I bought the whole kit and did not use two pieces that are kind of big. Nice kit, simple procedure, looks really nice. I have gotten some nice compliments, but only after I bragged about putting it on as it looks very OEM. My wife has not even noticed and she has ridden in the car several times.
The thing I've noticed is that a "problem" with an American make, is just a "quirk" or "minor annoyance" on the BMW, MB or any Japanese made auto. I dropped C & D a long time ago as EVERY American car was junk and they bowed down before the Black Forest and Japan. I've read nothing but bad things about the Tarus/Sable. I'm here to tell you, since 1986 I've put 450k total miles on 4 Sables. The only major repair was the tranny recall on the '91. Compare the cars all you want, but do it equally. If 60-0 in 150 feet is long for an American car, then the same numbers on ANY other car should also be considered long. Take ALL vehicle numbers into account, weight, ABS, weight distribution, tires (size & compound), etc. That is a fair compo. If the LS is the size of a 5-series, then compare it to the 5. I priced them. A comparable 5 was $10-$12 more expensive. Fewer horses, longer stops, and a spartan, excuse me, Tutonic, cockpit. For me it was a no brainer. I've had Japanese cars. When my non-Amazon wife bent the hood by trying to lower it with the support rod still up, I decieded that was my last Japanese tin can! Now I'll get off my soap box and call my local fire department. Got my K & N today. What a GREAT "growl" under moderate to hard acceleration!
With only 500 miles on your LS V8 Sport, your current fuel mileage isn't anywhere near what it will become.
I have a 2000 LS V8 Sport with 20K miles on it. The mileage has steadily improved to the point where I generally get around 17.5-18 MPG in mixed surface streets/urban freeway driving. If I get really jammed into a bunch of stop and go stuff, the mileage will get down around 14.5-15 MPG during concentrated stop and go, but I almost always can average at least 17 MPG for a tank of general city driving. It DOES pay to be gentle with the right foot during the stop and go though.
On the highway I usually drive around 80 MPH and get 23.5-25 MPG. My car frequently sees triple-digit speeds for short spurts, usually when overtaking, so I don't drive like the typical Volvo or Cadillac driver ;-) I didn't get this car so I could cruise along in LaLa Land. I still usually average around 24 MPG on trips.
I have an '01 V8 Sport, too. After 6 months and just under 6,600 miles, my overall average is 17.5 MPG. My worst mileage came with the second fillup at 15.2; best was 22.0 which was nearly all on an Interstate at 75+ with 1 passenger & luggage. (Those are hand-calculated numbers; I find that my on-board computer tends to be slightly optimistic in its calculations.)
I always use 93 octane fuel and always get it from the same station (unless I'm out of town, of course.) Most of my driving is in-town/neighborhood streets, a 6-mile freeway commute, and relatively short highway trips (30-70 miles at a time) at or above the speed limit; I'm not a lead-foot, either.
I have noticed a slight improvement over time, but it hasn't been significant; maybe 1 MPG. Eleven-point-four sounds really low; I'd definitely mention it to a service writer if I were you, especially if it persists.
I just ignore the MPG display unless I reset before a highway drive. My commute to work is 6 miles one way with 1/2 of that spent watching old folks pushing walkers pass me up (30 - 40 min!). Sometimes when I'm bored I'll cycle the display to MPG to see numbers like 0.9 or 1.3 and just laugh. Even funnier is the "miles to empty" actually works pretty well! Go figure...
Has anyone had a problem with the driver's seat not returning to the preferred position when placing the key into the ignition? This has happened to me twice in a week. Secondly, all my electronic displays on the instrument panel, audio system and environment do not light up immediately. Problem started on March 3, 2001. It takes up to one minute to come on line. I have 1800 miles on the car since new on December 15, 2000
So you noticed the "growl" too. I thought, since I installed my K&N at less than 3,000 miles, that the growl was just the result of the car finally breaking in as I didn't notice it until about 5,000 on the clock. But it sure makes the V-6 sound powerful! Stanny1 The "Coneinator", awaiting the availability of the larger throttle body and less restrictive air box (which may obsolete the K&N).
My V8 experience agrees with what's been posted above. It will improve with breaking in, but 11.4 does sound low even for a new engine. Is that from the computer or your calculations? My driving is 80% highway, so I have it easy, but mileage was never worse than 20 mpg even when the car was brand new. Now, at 10,600 mi and a recent switch to synthetic oil, it's averaging 23.6 by the computer and will get 25 at steady 80 mph cruising. The computer is accurate on long trips, but, yeah, a bit optimistic during normal commuting. It is a good baseline, however, just for keeping an eye on "trends". thomas l likes to reset his in traffic just for fun; I like to reset mine when I'm going downhill on the highway and watch my fast, heavy car get 65 mpg. Take that, Honda!
This is a common problem. some reported having a loose wire clip in the steering wheel. Mine hardly ever returns as it's supposed to. Getting ready to take mine in - If it's something other than the wire clip I'll let you know.
You should hear my V6 growl now with both the K&N and the MagnaFlow mufflers. Wish I had had both at the LS Mania event. Sounds much better than JR's Borla wannabe IMNSHO.
The mufflers that desertguy has should be stainless steel. The cat-back system that Magnaflow is developing for us is a full stainless steel system.
Joe,
Are you sure you meant to say that the Joshua Tree wood trim kit is plastic? I just got the package and I'm pretty sure it's wood. I do agree that there are probably only two or three manufacturers of the stuff.
lolaj42,
I agree with you. Leavy is going to be doing the initial development of this in his street car. Once he gets all the bugs and kinks worked out of it and doesn't affect the handling, which he and I both agree we don't want to degrade in any way, then it will work its way onto Project LS-GT, but not before then.
If that is not plastic, I will eat it. It is an exact match for the factory trim which is also from that endangered plastic tree. I don't think you can get real wood from them for the LS, although it apparently is available at some other places. It seems kind of silly to get real wood as it would mean you had to replace all the factory fake wood in order to match it. I could be wrong, but it looks like plastic to me.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love more HP in my LS, and I'm anxiously waiting to see the Project LS-GT car develop. When do you think the Magnaflow project will produce some numbers (cost, and HP increase)? I've been looking into the K&N filter, but as others have stated (particularly the Edmunds participants from Arizona), increase in airflow at the expense of filtration capability isn't doing your engine any favors. With the airborne dust conditions prevalent in the desert southwest, I go through air filters almost as quickly as oil filters. I'd like to see a more definitive study of the filtration effectiveness of the K&N filter as compared with the specified Ford filter.
I'm waiting with baited breath for Leavy to get some performance LS products out to the masses! However, at this point, I don't think I could afford the 4.6L engine even if it could be done without affecting handling and NVH. I'm curious though.
The Magna Flows I got are stainless and have a lifetime guarantee. They were $115 each installed. He cut the notch in the plastic lower facia so that the chrome tips would come out straighter and look more factory. I "feel" it has increased performance by reducing the back pressure. BTW, the resonators were left in place.
Add me to the list of V-8 manual buyers for 2002, if there was one offered. I have held off buying one for a year in hopes LM would provide a stick.
I, too, am going to give the X-type a close look. No one has mentioned the Lexus IS-300 (rwd) which will add a manual this year, but I can't take that wedgie styling. And it has a support rod for the hood, too, which sealed its death for me.
Comments
Rene -- good motorcycle story w/ #1121 (unless it's changed, which it can do now). Good to hear from you
Steve
How about that "leatherette" upholstery at this price? When I met my wife-to-be in 1969, she had a base model '69 Chevy Nova with a vinyl interior and no A/C. As we suffered through the first 2 summers of our marriage with this thing, little did I know that that some 32 years later some auto writer would be extolling the virtues of same. I am gratifed that the writer's guilt is assuaged B/C no cows died in vain. I am certain that he buys only footwear that is non-leather, has a canvas wallet and never has a steak dinner. I'll bet his wife or girlfriend even has a leatherette handbag. Can you spell sour grapes?
And, oh yeah. I commuted to work by car for 22 years. I don't think a morning or evening passed when some testosterone-charged imbecile also decided to became "Mr. Wheeler" so as to not have to suffer the ignominy of looking at the back of my car. Of course, in this case they were not rewarded with the open road. Instead they got to see the backs of the hundreds of thousands other cars on the world-famous Long Island Expressway.
After I got my first motorcycle with ABS brakes (a 1992 BMW K75/RT) I had to (re)train myself to be ready to fully use my front brake when needed instead of being so careful to avoid lockup. Lock up the front wheel on a bike, and you are down so quickly you won't know what hit you (voice of experience). A bike doesn't stop very quickly while sliding along on its saddle bags and crash guards.
It is important not to have to delay while figuring out how much traction the road surface can provide when someone pulls a sudden "lefto" in front of you. The fact that I could just react with violent braking when the old lady cut me off on my R1100 probably saved my bacon.
The effects of locking the wheels on a 4-wheel vehicle aren't as catastrophic as they are on a motorcycle, but the loss of steering is serious, and the stopping distance is significantly extended. I think ABS provides a HUGE real-world advantage under panic stop/avoidance circumstances when our "modulating" skills are most likely at a minimum.
So this is my idea of why they like BMW's. The LS definitely edges the BMW in luxury, but not so for steering and handling. A BMW 3 and 5-series have envious vehicle dynamics, whether you're at 3/10's or 10/10's. The LS feels nice until about 7/10's. I think a BMW is a racecar in luxury clothing, the original sport sedan. The LS is a luxury car with improved vehicle dynamics, a sporty luxury car.
I'm guessing the "bias" exists because during the '70s and '80s only BMW and Porsche were obsessively focused on driver-oriented performance cars. All of their platforms sold in the USA are far more performance oriented than the complete lines of their competitors. They have worked hard since the '50s to build and maintain their reputations.
Closest Detroit has come is the Corvette. But does anyone think the '76, '81, or '86 Corvettes were great cars then or today? Think of what happened to the T-bird in the late '50s onwards. Anyone remember the Mustang II? And Lincoln hasn't had a positive driver's orientation since the early '50s. Or look at a once great marque like Jaguar. The late '70s and '80s were mostly a performance nightmare. They are having to work hard to rebuild their once great fame.
The 328 was a nice sporty car but too small and spartan. The steering wheel was manual adjust not auto & memory and it's "precise" steering was at times annoying because it was too skittish on our northern frost heaved and bumpy roads. A reasonably equiped 328i new, was also more expensive than a LS.
I didn't consider new 528's due to price. The old generation used 528 which was priced similar to the LS felt its age. The new generation used 528's drove similar to the LS but still felt smaller than the LS, had a bit more luxurious feel than the 328 but not necessasarily better than the LS. Next time I'm looking for a car I won't be considering BMW unless they drop their prices by 20%. IMHO your paying for status with those cars.
Forget luxury, forget horsepower, forget handling. The best thing about my LS is that it warms up faster than any car I have ever driven. The other day in 26 degree weather, it was blowing warm air withing 2 miles of starting it.
Don't forget to mention www.llsoc.com in the comments field or let the sales rep. know if you call in so you get the free shipping offer. If they have issues with it, tell them to ask Mike, the owner, about it.
Brian
I just added an icon on our site that will allow questions to be asked and answered in real-time, if I'm online. It's called Human Click and the icon is both on the main page and on the navigation bars for both the public and members-only area. If I'm not online it will tell you to leave a message which I get as soon as I go back online.
Brian
If this does not happen by 2002 I'll have to look at the jaguar x-type. I currently have an 2000 ls v8 non-sport. I love the engine and handling and everything else, but the transmission ratios do not make sense. A six speed manual would be perfect!
Jim
Jim
The front spindle/steering knuckle is a very tall piece, arcing up over the front tire. The upper ball joint is ABOVE the tire and seems to be positioned at about the tire centerline.
Zero scrub radius? Less sensitivity to externally-induced forces? ??????????????
Whatever it is, it sure looks like $$$. I'm guessing that you guys spent extra money to keep something undesireable from reaching/affecting the driver.
Is this something else we LS fanatics can brag about?
If you really, really, really gotta 'ave a V-8 manual tranny sedan, 'ave you thought about a used BMW 540i? Good luck finding one, but it is a magnificent car. Just too darn expensive new. (I took my wife out on her birthday to dinner the other night. When I came out a beautiful BMW 635i manual was parked next to me. Guessing it was from '85-'88. I always wanted one. Wish BMW would revive the 6 Series. Or I could find a granny-driven low mile one in an Arizona barn.)
And it has curtain airbags, a Jag first!
Jim
Lincoln is probably looking at the number of manual LS's sold, (I saw a number at 3% somewhere) and figures there is no market for a manual with the v8. They need to understand that a manual ls v8 would attract a whole different group of people for a sub 7 second Lincoln.
Jim
I picked up my 2000 V8 Sport Jan 8. It is/was a Ford HP car. What ever that means. It had 7,500 hi already. I now have 12,000 i. Yes I drive alot. In fact my last car died prematurely (<200,000) and I wasn't quite financially ready for a new S. So I had to settle fro this one for $30,997. shah hub? But enough about me, what about the AS?
Good Gad, do I love this car. From a fellow licensed mechanical engineer, congradulations Lincoln (Mr. Kupka) for what is truely an outstanding vehicle. It takes a compitent engineer/team to come up with a great machine for the kind of money BMW wants. It takes true talent, dedication and a tremendous amount of hard work to design a machine such as this for such a reasonable cost. Bravo, give your team a raise and my compliments. I could not suggest a single big-picture design change. The car is fundimenatlly RIGHT.
I do share the opinion of many of the detail oriented comments posted on this page. I also have one, what I consider significant, core engineering "tweak" you folks may wish to cansider in following generations.
The center section where the front door closes and the rear door hinges on causes a blind spot for me blocking my perifial vision. I have adjusted the mirrors and seat position several times but still have this problem. I understand that this section most likely contributes significantly to the rigidity of the car and any sacrifices here would be a tradgety, but perhaps this area could be designed as a parralellagram to reduce its impact on ones lign of sight. I noticed that the front winshield frame seems to be designed with a triangular crossection. Rigid yes, but it also sucsessfully reduces the amount of vision inparement the driver experiences from this member.
Just a thought.
Brian, I will be seing you folks at the LLSOC soon.
Enjoy folks, I sure am.
Scott
Scott
FWIW, I've seen a useful suggestion on using the spell check - look at what it wants to do, take what makes sense from it, hit the BACK button in your browser and make your own corrections, then post.
Or skip it altogether.....
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
FWIW.
Jim
You should read some of Brock's books. I most strongly recommend his 1983 classic, "The Decline and Fall of the American Automobile Industry". Just pulled out my well-worn copy. Check out pages 204-208. His description of Cadillac's proving ground circa 1966 is priceless. The then engineers' disdain for 4-wheel disc brakes and IRS is still symptomatic of so much of today's Detroit that eschews developing and selling all around high performance automobiles! It is one of the reasons people like him have a "bias" toward marques like BMW, Porsche, or MB. He was there when they were routinely using readily available technology, like IRS or 4-wheel disc brakes, to make their cars better when Detroit wouldn't 'cause they didn't feel the need when they dominated over 90% of the U.S. market. Oh, how times have changed, and for the better.
Brian
I'd need to know/learn a little more about this engine, particularly its overall weight. I'm a little skeptical about dropping this motor into the LS without disturbing the weight distribution, and subsequently the handling. Obviously, I'd love the added oomph under the hood, but not necessarily at the expense of increased NVH and handling.
I think it would speak volumes for Lincoln to mate that powerplant with a manual transmission, but, alas, I rather enjoy my SST transmission (OK, maybe a slight change in the gear ratios could be in order). I've owned 2 seater sports cars (red of course) with manual transmissions, but, in my mind, they were sports cars . . . not sport sedans. While I appreciate the desire of others to row-your-own, IMHO, I'd rather have the SST set up.
Unless the overall weight of the 4.6L is equal to, or less than the Jag 3.9/4.0, I would wait to see how the additional weight affects the handling (not to mention the price!) My 2 cents.
As to the comparative quality, I only have some web cruising and the installation last week of the Joshua trim product, but I would be shocked if there was a nickels worth of difference on this. I am convinced that there are probably only one or two manufacturers of these trim products which are then retailed by several retailers. I note that when I got my Joshua wood product last week, it came from somewhere else and there was a blanked invoice on it that said ship to (me) bill to (an individual, obviously the principal of Joshua Wood Trim). If this were their factory, why bill anyone? It is obviously a factory that sells to more than one retailer.
Having said that, I am totally satisfied with my Joshua Wood trim that is plastic, remarkably like the plastic that came from the factory. It was cheaper than some of the others and the quality is excellent. I did not use the pieces for the overhead light (called a console for some reason) and the piece for the top of the console as I thought it looked stupid and too much, but that is personal. I also think the rear door parts are kind of hokey looking. Try them on before you put them on as they expose too much plastic and look kind of silly (again, IMHO). I wish I had not put them on as the individual ash tray trim just looks added on. I may remove them. It is the only part I used that I wish I had not. I would have preferred to have a choice as to which parts to order, and they are so cooperative at Joshua Wood trim that they probably would have worked with me, but I bought the whole kit and did not use two pieces that are kind of big. Nice kit, simple procedure, looks really nice. I have gotten some nice compliments, but only after I bragged about putting it on as it looks very OEM. My wife has not even noticed and she has ridden in the car several times.
Now I'll get off my soap box and call my local fire department.
Got my K & N today. What a GREAT "growl" under moderate to hard acceleration!
I have a 2000 LS V8 Sport with 20K miles on it. The mileage has steadily improved to the point where I generally get around 17.5-18 MPG in mixed surface streets/urban freeway driving. If I get really jammed into a bunch of stop and go stuff, the mileage will get down around 14.5-15 MPG during concentrated stop and go, but I almost always can average at least 17 MPG for a tank of general city driving. It DOES pay to be gentle with the right foot during the stop and go though.
On the highway I usually drive around 80 MPH and get 23.5-25 MPG. My car frequently sees triple-digit speeds for short spurts, usually when overtaking, so I don't drive like the typical Volvo or Cadillac driver ;-) I didn't get this car so I could cruise along in LaLa Land. I still usually average around 24 MPG on trips.
I always use 93 octane fuel and always get it from the same station (unless I'm out of town, of course.) Most of my driving is in-town/neighborhood streets, a 6-mile freeway commute, and relatively short highway trips (30-70 miles at a time) at or above the speed limit; I'm not a lead-foot, either.
I have noticed a slight improvement over time, but it hasn't been significant; maybe 1 MPG. Eleven-point-four sounds really low; I'd definitely mention it to a service writer if I were you, especially if it persists.
Scott
Joe,
Are you sure you meant to say that the Joshua Tree wood trim kit is plastic? I just got the package and I'm pretty sure it's wood. I do agree that there are probably only two or three manufacturers of the stuff.
lolaj42,
I agree with you. Leavy is going to be doing the initial development of this in his street car. Once he gets all the bugs and kinks worked out of it and doesn't affect the handling, which he and I both agree we don't want to degrade in any way,
then it will work its way onto Project LS-GT, but not before then.
Brian
Brian
Don't get me wrong, I'd love more HP in my LS, and I'm anxiously waiting to see the Project LS-GT car develop. When do you think the Magnaflow project will produce some numbers (cost, and HP increase)? I've been looking into the K&N filter, but as others have stated (particularly the Edmunds participants from Arizona), increase in airflow at the expense of filtration capability isn't doing your engine any favors. With the airborne dust conditions prevalent in the desert southwest, I go through air filters almost as quickly as oil filters. I'd like to see a more definitive study of the filtration effectiveness of the K&N filter as compared with the specified Ford filter.
I'm waiting with baited breath for Leavy to get some performance LS products out to the masses! However, at this point, I don't think I could afford the 4.6L engine even if it could be done without affecting handling and NVH. I'm curious though.
I, too, am going to give the X-type a close look. No one has mentioned the Lexus IS-300 (rwd) which will add a manual this year, but I can't take that wedgie styling. And it has a support rod for the hood, too, which sealed its death for me.