By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
This is the E-mail I received from Richard Blum at K&N Filters in response to Questions I had about a post on another site warning about the use of K&N filters.
Dear customer,
The post regarding the construction/mining equipment is a fake that has
been around as long as I have been here. How do I know it is fake? We DO
NOT MAKE filters for anything over one ton including construction/mining
equipment! These kind of filters have pleat depths as thick as 3 - 4
inches. We do not make filter material with that kind of pleat depth and
never have! Here is the truth...
Our filters are tested by 2 outside, independent laboratories. They
have been proven to stop at least 97% of particles on a SAE fine dust test.
This test uses mostly particles in the 0 - 5 micron range but goes up to 20
microns. For comparison, a paper filter stops 98% on the same test and the
OEM minimum standard is 95%. Foam is generally the worst media with a
typical efficiency rating of 75%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be
more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of
a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well. As it
get dirty, the effectiveness rises to 99% without a loss of flow. Paper too
hits 99% but with a significant loss of flow.
We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off
road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their
cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here
we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing
every year.
We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock,
Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the
2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made the filters used in the Apache
helicopters used in Desert Storm and the US Marine Corps new Osprey
tilt-rotor aircraft. If they work in these conditions they will work for
you.
Your Lincoln LS uses part# 33-2148 with an msrp of $47.62. It will
give you a 2 - 4 % horsepower increase. For a dealer near you call
888-425-0325 and we are at most auto parts chains. PS, you may post my
response if you are a member and able to. I could not find a place to do it
myself.
Thanks for asking, Rick
Tom...
The front suspension is a strut-type suspension, a first for a Jaguar. Curb weight 3400 to 3500 pounds. Jag claims a 3.0 w/ a manual gearbox can hit 0 - 60 mph in 6.6 seconds.
C&D weren't able to drive the car to verify the claims. Nor is the cost known at this point. Best guess is $31,000 for the base X-type 2.5L to more than $39,000 for a 3.0L automatic.
Since K&N filters are stock on some Ford products and the CAFE numbers are important, the obvious question is: Why is not a K&N filter the factory standard on the LS and (excuse me) the Jag S-Type?
Jim
The bad grounds cause a voltage drop, which causes the seat mechanism to drop out on low voltage. There are several grounds under the dash. I don't know where, but the dealer I used can probably tell you. They are airfield Lincoln/Mercury at 513-874-3740. Ask for Tony Blaine; he is the service director.
Since they have fixed that, there has been no problem. Prior to that the failure to return rate was about 50%. This could also be the problem with the other dash instruments.
Good luck
BTW, I haven't gotten a single response from the BMW 5-series contingent as to a) if they drove a LS prior to purchasing a 5-series, why they chose the 5-series, and b) what they thought of the LS.
Wasn't expecting any great response, but wasn't expecting none either. Can't say I was totally surprised.
Brian
I saw your recent posting to the 5 series board and have some thoughts for you as to why you may not had much input...
As you may be aware, there are numerous on-line boards for current BMW owners, and unlike your board here, many posters here are not current owners. It appears that you have a large contingent of current LS owners who use your board as their main source of owners info. I believe however, many others use these boards as a source of pricing and optional equipment opinions, as opposed to your board which is more of a well run on-line owners club.
I also think that any BMW owner who visits your board would also see that your current LS owners may have answered your questions already for you. The 5 series, pound for pound, is not in the same price league as the LS. I do not believe that most BMW owners consider the LS a direct competitor, but view the Lexus GS as targeted more closely to the 5 series.
I think you have a great board here and trying to take the BMW 5 series on does nothing for the LS. Those who paid a premium for a BMW did so not by comparing feature for feature on paper with the LS, but by the intangibles the LS will hopefully gain after more time. If you cannot feel those intangibles be glad....you saved a lot of money ;-)
Thank you for your response to my question/concern with the K&N filter. However, the message you quote in your response (from who I assume in a K&N representative) is somewhat misleading. As a former design/development engineer on gas turbine engines (as used on the Apache attack helicopter, and the Osprey tilt rotor aircraft), they DO NOT USE air filters as piston engines do. The only thing that I can think that this person could be implying is that their filters are used to condition/filter air within the aircraft cabin. Turbine engines in aircraft applications never employ air filters for air used in the combustion process. Notwithstanding, the testing this person refers to may not necessarily be a definitive test for automobile air filters (although, it may be). His response also does not address my concern that the K&N filter is superior to the OEM filter provided on the LS (he only refers to a minimum standard for OEM filters). I have the general opinion that the "improved air flow" claim by K&N is achieved by poorer filtration. If I am correct, it would not surprise me to hear that folks using such a filter would see improved performance and gas mileage after the initial use. But after prolonged exposure to "dirty air", I would also expect to see performance deterioration due to dirt induction.
Perhaps I am wrong in my general assessment of the K&N filter, but without support from an independent source, I would be reluctant to adopt the K&N filter.
So you see, some of us BMW guys can think outside of the box. :-)
Any advice?
Brian
Jim
Has anyone found ss exhaust tips that will work without having to cut the bumper cover? Source and price?
Tell him the filters are used on the electronics cooling fans. He is
correct, a K&N does not filter as well as paper. We rate at 99.05%
effective and paper is 99.24%. Remember, the OEM minimum standard is 96%
and both are well above that. Less the 1/4 of 1% difference in filtration
for 33% more air is a great trade off in my opinion and millions of other
happy customers. If you are that concerned about that slight a difference,
leave the vehicle stock. His loss.
Thanks, Rick
As I stated in my last post contact him direct at richardb@knfilters.com with your concerns.
Tom...
The only thing of value left to talk about, which was what should've started the lengthy discussion, might be some real world independent tests from recognized, reputable sources which show how these products perform. Until I see that, I ain't sold on anything. Can any of you K&N boosters provide us such unbiased, scientific info?
I'll follow up with Rick. I appreciate your effort. My apologies to all board members here who feel I have occupied too much time discussing the merits of the K&N filter and their potential to enhance performance.
2. I'd add redact 1228 to say "purported" or "unsubstantiated" in front of the words "merits" and "potential" in #1228 above. I'd love to see some reliable, independent long-term studies, that also look at mileage, engine wear, mechanical failures, etc. Anyone have any? I'd love to be a true believer and jump on the bandwagon but guess I'm just a bit sceptical until clear & convincing probative evidence is proffered.
Tom...
2. And if you and others complain about certain threads going on too long or being repetitive (and I've been chastised for the old I-6 issue), why not be consistent and hold the plethora of K&N postings to the same standard? How many K&N posts have there been here at the LS site over I-XIII? Bet way more than about I-6/V-6. Maybe more than about stereo mods/upgrades, though that might be closer?
meredith "K & N Air Filters - Bolt on Power?" Jan 22, 1999 1:18am
BUT WHAT DOES THAT MATTER. I have read that site and there is very little discussion on it about it's application to Lincoln LS's. I don't care about the claims of other car owners. If you were to compare the number of posts to those in the V-6 I-6 "controversy", I am positive that it would pale in comparison, but more importantly, this seems to be of more interest to most people and it is not just someone repeating their position ad nauseum.
In short, and IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with these posts. It would be nice to have had someone point out that there was a whole subject devoted to K&N, but it really is inappropriate to criticize those who post things that are of interest to some LS owners just because they may not be of interest to others.
giowa: Yes you have been attacked in the past for extensive discussion topics. While I'm sure you didn't like the attacks, and I know I was one of them, with the K&N topic now you realize what the other participants who did not share your enthusiasm on the subject went through. The K&N discussion is educational, even though we seem to be at an impasse.
K&N filters do work. I've used them on numerous cars since the late seventies, including some highly stressed, high-mileage modified turbo engines. I can't say that the filter let more dirt into the engines because honestly it wasn't enough of an issue for me to worry about.
Rick from K&N was answering our question. He is also in engineering, not sales. And for whatever it is worth, filters only perform at their initial rating only until they start to get dirty. At that point filtration efficiency goes up and air flow starts to go down. A dirty air filter will probably get to 100% filtration efficiency but air flow would drop to close to 0%.
So it's a trade-off. If folks don't feel comfortable with using a K&N filter, please don't feel obligated to use one just because we suggest it. You need to feel comfortable with your decision and to do that you need information. Those of us who have the K&N can only provide you our opinion, not fact.
If we want to continue having this forum be the place for LS owners AND LINCOLN MANAGEMENT to come to then we need to remember that they won't keep reading if we degrade into a bickering, unprofessional forum.
So Please everyone take a chill pill, think of sitting in the sunny (insert your choice of temperature) in (insert your choice of paradise) drinking (insert your choice of beverage) with (insert your choice of partner) and RELAX
Brian
Michael, who is DYING to have a clean car again :~(
Brian
I talked to a real sharp engineer at the Ford Technical hotline named Wayne Burbank. He said that every vehicle should be diagnosed on an individual basis. He did say that he had a few calls on this concern and there is no all encompassing fix. Here is a list of things that he mentioned it could be.
1) The injector rail pressure sensor could be reading too low forcing the powertrain control module to deliver more fuel than needed.
2)The fuel delivery system ie injectors, fuel regulators, oxygen sensors.
3)The powertrain control module could have an internal concern (not likley).
4)TSB 00-25-07 has a lot of information that could be affecting the fuel system.
I hope this is some help to you.
Brian Glastetter
Rancho Ford L/M
Shop foreman
p.s.
The over head light lens is a pain to remove. There is some clips that secure it in and our tech's say it may break if not taken out right. They recommend to bring it to the dealer.
Private party sale $28,552
Dealer sale $31,252
Certified used car $32,037
If I entered the info correctly, it seems as if $31,500 is a fair price, if not a bargain. Of course, I consider the AS a great car and a bargain regardless!
I keep reminding myself that K&N is a for-profit business which advertises and needs buyers. I hope this site doesn't become one dominated by either manufacturer "plants" or partisans pushing a particular synthetic oil, engine additive, car polish, cleaner, stereo speaker, etc.
I'm thinking we've demonstrated our intelligence by buying an LS and saving thousands over similar competitors. Shouldn't intelligent people rely on factual analysis of unbiased real world test results when evaluating whether a particular product is superior or cost effective? The back pages of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. are filled with all sorts of ads for various and sundry products that purport to do something great. I say let them and K&N pay for their advertising. We should be studying the proof! Not to mention studying what the FTC, Consumer Reports, et al say about the plethora of bogus marketing claims made on behalf of far too many automotive-related products!
Nor am I making any positive assertions of benefit or aspersions of harm. The partisan bears the burden of proof. Should be simple matter for a true believe to steer us all to some published test results? Has anyone checked out K&N's web site to see if they publish "unbiased" scientifically valid longitudinal test results (done double blind with a control group)?
I think that what I have seen put out by FTC and Consumer Reports justifies my healthy scepticism about automotive-related product claims. Check out the FTC's web site and look over some of their materials.
Tom....
Mine is a Black LS-8 Sport with Charcoal interior and I think the fake wood trim really looks terrible. Especially around the ashtray/shifter because it is getting scratched up from me always leaving my sunglasses there.
Even a kit that is just grey or black inserts would look better than the "wood".
Tom...
Scott
In case you haven't noticed, there is a pattern with Giowa's posts. He asks for test results and when he gets them, discounts them because he says they're biased. When asked if he would perform the tests, he declines saying he's biased because he's a skeptic (a skeptic would be the perfect tester provided the tests are objective and not subjective). I absolutely guarantee you that if you came back tomorrow with a totally independent lab test showing the K&N worked as advertised, he would find something wrong with the test that (in his mind) would invalidate the results. Every time he's presented with facts contrary to his argument, he changes the subject or goes off on a tangent. It is impossible to carry on a civilized, rational discussion with him, so don't even try. In time you'll learn to ignore him like most of us already have and your blood pressure will drop about 30 points.
1. July, 1998, Long-term Catera Report, p. 123: "Less successful was our experiment with a K & N air filter ($49), which we installed in the hope of getting a few more inexpensive horsepower. We compared the K & N with a new stock filter, as well as as filter used for 10,000 miles. The chart reveals our average test results with each filter.
filter 0-60 0-90 1/4 mile
stock (new) 8.4 19.1 16.5 @ 84 mph
stock (old) 8.5 19.4 16.5 @ 84 mph
K & N (new) 8.4 19.4 16.5 @ 84 mph
Judging by those figures, we would consider these famous oiled-foam air cleaners for their long life rather than for any performance improvement."
I'd think the Catera is a decent car to test K&N filters in vis-a-vis LS.
2. November, 1998, Long-term test Prelude SH test, p. 165: "installed an HKS Super Mega Flow air-cleaner kit on the Prelude ($200). The kit replaces the stock air-cleaner box ... tested back-to-back with the factory setup and clean filter.
filter 5-60 5-100 Top Speed
stock 7.9 20.8 139
HKS 7.8 20.5 141
The performance increase comes hand in hand with seven (7) extra decibels of honking intake noise at full throttle, which staffers found either amusing or annoying, depending upon their age."
If anything C&D was probably biased in favor. They wanted more power and better performance. Not sure the HKS numbers would be statistically significant. And notice the noise penalty!
Ninety Nine percent of the participants are using this forum as an effective medium to exchange ideas and feedback about their LS's. This is why we all are here.
Since many of you have previously attacked the automotive press, I'm guessing you'll attack the source or their methods or something. But it will be you disputing someone else's published test results. If you don't like 'em publish your own. And if K&N "knew" C&D was wrong, K&N could've sued for defamation. I don't remember C&D ever retracting what they wrote about the K&N filters in their article.