I posted this in the past, but here it is again for your info If you like you can E-mail him with any questions you may have that are not answered here at richardb@knfilters.com .
This is the E-mail I received from Richard Blum at K&N Filters in response to Questions I had about a post on another site warning about the use of K&N filters.
Dear customer, The post regarding the construction/mining equipment is a fake that has been around as long as I have been here. How do I know it is fake? We DO NOT MAKE filters for anything over one ton including construction/mining equipment! These kind of filters have pleat depths as thick as 3 - 4 inches. We do not make filter material with that kind of pleat depth and never have! Here is the truth... Our filters are tested by 2 outside, independent laboratories. They have been proven to stop at least 97% of particles on a SAE fine dust test. This test uses mostly particles in the 0 - 5 micron range but goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a paper filter stops 98% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 95%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of 75%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well. As it get dirty, the effectiveness rises to 99% without a loss of flow. Paper too hits 99% but with a significant loss of flow. We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing every year. We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock, Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made the filters used in the Apache helicopters used in Desert Storm and the US Marine Corps new Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft. If they work in these conditions they will work for you. Your Lincoln LS uses part# 33-2148 with an msrp of $47.62. It will give you a 2 - 4 % horsepower increase. For a dealer near you call 888-425-0325 and we are at most auto parts chains. PS, you may post my response if you are a member and able to. I could not find a place to do it myself. Thanks for asking, Rick
For those who are debating on looking at the X-type the March edition of Car and Drive has a preview of the car. Yes it will have a manual transmission, but it will be a 5-speed. The engine is a transverse-mounted, 231hp 3.0L engine with VVT, The X-type's layout is essentially a FRONT-DRIVE layout with a pronounced 60/40 forward weight bias. It will have all-wheel drive as standard. The wheelbase is 106.7 in., shorter than a BMW 3-series. But it is 7.9 in longer than the 3-series and 5.6 in longer than the C-class Mercedes.
The front suspension is a strut-type suspension, a first for a Jaguar. Curb weight 3400 to 3500 pounds. Jag claims a 3.0 w/ a manual gearbox can hit 0 - 60 mph in 6.6 seconds.
C&D weren't able to drive the car to verify the claims. Nor is the cost known at this point. Best guess is $31,000 for the base X-type 2.5L to more than $39,000 for a 3.0L automatic.
A 1000 miles ago I replaced the Ford Air Filter with a K&N filter. On average I can drive 25 miles longer between filling the tank and the engine revs up to speed quicker, although I can't feel a significant increase in top end torque and HP. The average mileage, as displayed, when from 14 to 15 mpg for local driving and from 22 to 24 mpg on the freeway.
Since K&N filters are stock on some Ford products and the CAFE numbers are important, the obvious question is: Why is not a K&N filter the factory standard on the LS and (excuse me) the Jag S-Type?
The only price that has been anounced for the US is for the base 2.5L with manual. It includes leather and real wood. priced at 29,950. This is much less than most had anticipated. Jim
Pepe, do you wait for the column and seat to stop moving before you turn on the ignition ? I've found that if I don't do this, the seat and column won't always go to their settings.
My point was that the seat and steering column were not moving at all when I inserted the key into the ignition. I did not attempt to start the car before awaiting the seat to position itself. The problem was intermittent and it worked the next time I got into the car and inserted the key into the ignition. I hate intermittent electrical problems because they are gremlins that will never go away and may never be resolved.
To all of you experiencing memory seat travel problems. I went through this for months with many visits to the dealer. They replaced almost all of the seat components. The REAL fix comes with correcting bad grounds under the dash. Not one, but two! The bad grounds cause a voltage drop, which causes the seat mechanism to drop out on low voltage. There are several grounds under the dash. I don't know where, but the dealer I used can probably tell you. They are airfield Lincoln/Mercury at 513-874-3740. Ask for Tony Blaine; he is the service director. Since they have fixed that, there has been no problem. Prior to that the failure to return rate was about 50%. This could also be the problem with the other dash instruments. Good luck
I wish to extend my heartfelt congratulations to you for being poster #1200...it is a rare honor to be bestowed upon anybody, and in this case, you have won the "anybody award.":>):>):>)
I have the non-audiophile system, with four speakers and a 10 disc changer in the trunk. Like some of you, I have replaced the factory speakers with four from Infinity. Has anyone with a similar set-up tried adding an amplifier? A couple of local installers have provided quotes ranging from $250 to $500. Any advice you may have will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the tip. Do you think you could ask the service advisor where the bad grounds were located and post it here or under the TSB/Recalls forum? That would be better than everyone calling this poor service advisor over and over. Thanks for your help.
BTW, I haven't gotten a single response from the BMW 5-series contingent as to a) if they drove a LS prior to purchasing a 5-series, why they chose the 5-series, and b) what they thought of the LS.
Wasn't expecting any great response, but wasn't expecting none either. Can't say I was totally surprised.
I saw your recent posting to the 5 series board and have some thoughts for you as to why you may not had much input...
As you may be aware, there are numerous on-line boards for current BMW owners, and unlike your board here, many posters here are not current owners. It appears that you have a large contingent of current LS owners who use your board as their main source of owners info. I believe however, many others use these boards as a source of pricing and optional equipment opinions, as opposed to your board which is more of a well run on-line owners club.
I also think that any BMW owner who visits your board would also see that your current LS owners may have answered your questions already for you. The 5 series, pound for pound, is not in the same price league as the LS. I do not believe that most BMW owners consider the LS a direct competitor, but view the Lexus GS as targeted more closely to the 5 series.
I think you have a great board here and trying to take the BMW 5 series on does nothing for the LS. Those who paid a premium for a BMW did so not by comparing feature for feature on paper with the LS, but by the intangibles the LS will hopefully gain after more time. If you cannot feel those intangibles be glad....you saved a lot of money ;-)
Thank you for your response to my question/concern with the K&N filter. However, the message you quote in your response (from who I assume in a K&N representative) is somewhat misleading. As a former design/development engineer on gas turbine engines (as used on the Apache attack helicopter, and the Osprey tilt rotor aircraft), they DO NOT USE air filters as piston engines do. The only thing that I can think that this person could be implying is that their filters are used to condition/filter air within the aircraft cabin. Turbine engines in aircraft applications never employ air filters for air used in the combustion process. Notwithstanding, the testing this person refers to may not necessarily be a definitive test for automobile air filters (although, it may be). His response also does not address my concern that the K&N filter is superior to the OEM filter provided on the LS (he only refers to a minimum standard for OEM filters). I have the general opinion that the "improved air flow" claim by K&N is achieved by poorer filtration. If I am correct, it would not surprise me to hear that folks using such a filter would see improved performance and gas mileage after the initial use. But after prolonged exposure to "dirty air", I would also expect to see performance deterioration due to dirt induction.
Perhaps I am wrong in my general assessment of the K&N filter, but without support from an independent source, I would be reluctant to adopt the K&N filter.
ok..well, a former BMW owner. I was once a BMW owner/enthusiast. BMWCCA member, loved tweaking, modifying, and all the club activities with my 1992 (E36 chassis) 318is. 138hp 4 banger, 5 speed manual. Great car, superb handler, little low on the torque, but pretty lively. Did the cone filter thing, the //M suspension/body parts thing. Low-speed accident (man, hit a tree, and all the energy of the crash goes in one direction...the car!) didnt even deploy the airbags, but when you go thru a small forest, you tend to hit every body panel on the car. Anyways, that occurred back in November of 1999. I only had 3 options in my tunnel vision mind. Used 528i with Sport Package, or and even older used 7-series, but current body style Also considered a brand new 323i loaded, but definitely too small for me. (By the way..The depreciation on many years of the 7's are bad...lots of lease vehicles, I guess, flooding the used car market). Problem was my price range. Wanted to spend $32 to $34 TOPS! Had checked out a couple of used 528's, and was not all that pleased with interior space. Great car though, and I clould have lived with its' "compact car" EPA classification. But kept reading about that doggoned Lincoln LS. A Lincoln at 33 years old? aarrgghh. I thought the min age requirement was about 70 for a Lincoln. Ill have to don a wig and glasses to creep down to the Lincoln dealer so no one will notice me. Car didnt even interest me until I saw a pic, then read about the Gertrag 5 speed manual transmission. And 17 inch 5 spoke alloys. And near 50/50 weight distribution. And a 210hp 6 cylinder. (More hp than the 5 series). And whats this? The battery is located on the passenger side of the trunk? (Just like BMW). Oh mama..let me at least check it out. After 2 test drives, I was sold. Period. End of story. True, I did change my mind and go for the automatic transmission. (Oddly enough, if it werent for the manual transmission, I probably would have never even considered the LS at all). 29,000 miles later, still love the car. Only possible regret? My route to work has changed since I first bought my car, and the stop and go traffic I used to encounter every single morning and evening, has gone. If I were buying an LS now, as much as I like the SST transmission, as an enthusiast, I would have to go with the 5 speed manual now.
So you see, some of us BMW guys can think outside of the box. :-)
I'm driving my first lease car. I can purchase my LS for the pre-determined price at lease end. Is that price negotiable? I drive a 5 speed manual that I assume my dealer doesn't want back. He tried very hard to sell me an automatic initially and wouldn't even consider ordering a manual without an outrageous deposit. Mine is the only manual LS he has sold. Of course, I can buy it at the pre-determined price or walk from it and order a replacement from another dealer. However, would like to know if pre-determined price is negotiablefore I start.
Most leases have three options - you can buy the car at the pre-determined price, sell the car yourself if worth more than the this price, or let the dealer have the car back. It depends on how well the residual value is figured as to whether you can negotiate with the dealer. I would check Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and newspaper ads to see what the going rate is for your car. If it is not worth the residual value then the dealer will usually negotiate 'cause he doesn't want the car back either.
I contacted the owner of Joshua Tree Wood Trim kit and asked it the factory match kit was, in fact, real wood or plastic. He most definitely assured me that it was real wood.
I just recently drove a new 525i tiptronic, and a 325ix tiptronic. The 3 series was about 38k and the 5 series was 42k. The 5 series felt a little more solid than my nearly 2 year old LS v8, and the trans was better matched to the engine, but the ride and handling seemed very close and it was MUCH slower. I felt that the LS was a better value if they were priced the same, but obviously the bmw was much more. I would guess that the 540 would be really special with a special price. The 3 series was also slow, rough riding, and not very impressive. I guess both cars would be better with the manual. But so would my LS V8 with a manual, Lincoln are you listening? Jim
Hey what is the best brand of synthetic lubricant. I also recall reading there is a significant difference in the design and performance of one particular filter.
Has anyone found ss exhaust tips that will work without having to cut the bumper cover? Source and price?
I have one of each. A 1998, 528i and a 2000 LS. I drive them alternate days to work. I like the BMW very much but it is not significantly better in any department than the LS. Sure it has more cachet in some circles but the interior materials are basically the same in my judgement. Equivalent platics and fake wood. LS has better seats and a better radio (Alpine) and with 17 wheels and the sport package simply is more fun to drive. Hey and no one looks twice at a BMW but the LS does get some interesting looks. Bottom line is the bottom line. The BMW 530 will cost you 12,000 to 14,000 more. If you have the extra cash and have never had a BMW go for it. Remember that that $12,000 will actually cost you $15,000 in 36 months...
I sent your post to Rick at K&N and this was his response,
Tell him the filters are used on the electronics cooling fans. He is correct, a K&N does not filter as well as paper. We rate at 99.05% effective and paper is 99.24%. Remember, the OEM minimum standard is 96% and both are well above that. Less the 1/4 of 1% difference in filtration for 33% more air is a great trade off in my opinion and millions of other happy customers. If you are that concerned about that slight a difference, leave the vehicle stock. His loss. Thanks, Rick
As I stated in my last post contact him direct at richardb@knfilters.com with your concerns.
Has this become a K&N board? With all this neverending discussion about K&N products, including what look like blatant promotional pitches from company spokesperson, I'm not sure if this is a Lincoln LS or K&N board. Is there a dedicated K&N site here at Town Hall? If not, maybe someone here should create it and steer the K&N sales pitches, testimonials, company PR, etc. that way? Would be interesting to see how many K&N postings are on Parts I-XIII.
The only thing of value left to talk about, which was what should've started the lengthy discussion, might be some real world independent tests from recognized, reputable sources which show how these products perform. Until I see that, I ain't sold on anything. Can any of you K&N boosters provide us such unbiased, scientific info?
I'll follow up with Rick. I appreciate your effort. My apologies to all board members here who feel I have occupied too much time discussing the merits of the K&N filter and their potential to enhance performance.
1. Why don't you create a dedicated K&N site here at Town Hall? Or at LLSOC? That way people interested can go right to the dedicated site.
2. I'd add redact 1228 to say "purported" or "unsubstantiated" in front of the words "merits" and "potential" in #1228 above. I'd love to see some reliable, independent long-term studies, that also look at mileage, engine wear, mechanical failures, etc. Anyone have any? I'd love to be a true believer and jump on the bandwagon but guess I'm just a bit sceptical until clear & convincing probative evidence is proffered.
I am in no way a K&N booster and resent you Implying so. I have only asked the same questions directly to the company that others here have asked. I to had and have the same concerns as others who post here do. I have searched the web and have found no scientific unbiased info comparing stock or after market filters. I was just trying to provide information about an accessory that is of interest to alot of us here. There are a few people that would like you to start your own board, so that you can go there and have arguments with your self, and give us a break.
1. In the absence of "scientific unbiased info", why do so many people go on at such length and so often about K&N?
2. And if you and others complain about certain threads going on too long or being repetitive (and I've been chastised for the old I-6 issue), why not be consistent and hold the plethora of K&N postings to the same standard? How many K&N posts have there been here at the LS site over I-XIII? Bet way more than about I-6/V-6. Maybe more than about stereo mods/upgrades, though that might be closer?
Let's get real here! Many board participants are interested and can use info on K & N filters or stereo mods on their personal LS. Nobody here is contemplating a switch from their V6 to an I6 for their LS.
BUT WHAT DOES THAT MATTER. I have read that site and there is very little discussion on it about it's application to Lincoln LS's. I don't care about the claims of other car owners. If you were to compare the number of posts to those in the V-6 I-6 "controversy", I am positive that it would pale in comparison, but more importantly, this seems to be of more interest to most people and it is not just someone repeating their position ad nauseum.
In short, and IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with these posts. It would be nice to have had someone point out that there was a whole subject devoted to K&N, but it really is inappropriate to criticize those who post things that are of interest to some LS owners just because they may not be of interest to others.
Here is some non-scientific, personal experience. My LS V6 revs much faster and is less inclined to downshift on a slight incline. It maintains accelleration in 5th. Just a "seat of the pants" feeling is that the engine is breathing much easier. I did put an extra hole in the airbox (in the wrong place, of course!). After removing the airbox, I saw that opening underneath. I wrongly assumed that it was under the box. That would've been a great place to introduce more cold air. Unfortunatly, the hole is under the snorkel. My extra hole is about 1/8" from the fender. I guess I still get extra cold air. I imagine my MPG will be lower as my right foot suddenly got heavier! ;~>
Must be the extra six weeks of winter that seems to be turning this board downward. Everyone please remember that one thing that distinguishes the LS forum for several others is that the participants are usually pretty tolerant of other viewpoints, and that discussion points are usually lively. Please remember that.
giowa: Yes you have been attacked in the past for extensive discussion topics. While I'm sure you didn't like the attacks, and I know I was one of them, with the K&N topic now you realize what the other participants who did not share your enthusiasm on the subject went through. The K&N discussion is educational, even though we seem to be at an impasse.
K&N filters do work. I've used them on numerous cars since the late seventies, including some highly stressed, high-mileage modified turbo engines. I can't say that the filter let more dirt into the engines because honestly it wasn't enough of an issue for me to worry about.
Rick from K&N was answering our question. He is also in engineering, not sales. And for whatever it is worth, filters only perform at their initial rating only until they start to get dirty. At that point filtration efficiency goes up and air flow starts to go down. A dirty air filter will probably get to 100% filtration efficiency but air flow would drop to close to 0%.
So it's a trade-off. If folks don't feel comfortable with using a K&N filter, please don't feel obligated to use one just because we suggest it. You need to feel comfortable with your decision and to do that you need information. Those of us who have the K&N can only provide you our opinion, not fact.
If we want to continue having this forum be the place for LS owners AND LINCOLN MANAGEMENT to come to then we need to remember that they won't keep reading if we degrade into a bickering, unprofessional forum.
So Please everyone take a chill pill, think of sitting in the sunny (insert your choice of temperature) in (insert your choice of paradise) drinking (insert your choice of beverage) with (insert your choice of partner) and RELAX
My local dealer has a 2000 LS-8 (non-sport) model with every other available option. The car is Silver Frost with light grey interior. One of the dealers had been driving it and it has only 4,000 miles. Of course it is hard to tell what they are really selling it for when you are trading something in, but the best math I can do is that the selling price is somewhere around 31,500. What are the thoughts on this price? Thanks!!
I received a reply to the flooding problem from my dealer's shop foreman. He's got some suggestions.
Brian
I talked to a real sharp engineer at the Ford Technical hotline named Wayne Burbank. He said that every vehicle should be diagnosed on an individual basis. He did say that he had a few calls on this concern and there is no all encompassing fix. Here is a list of things that he mentioned it could be. 1) The injector rail pressure sensor could be reading too low forcing the powertrain control module to deliver more fuel than needed. 2)The fuel delivery system ie injectors, fuel regulators, oxygen sensors. 3)The powertrain control module could have an internal concern (not likley). 4)TSB 00-25-07 has a lot of information that could be affecting the fuel system. I hope this is some help to you. Brian Glastetter Rancho Ford L/M Shop foreman p.s. The over head light lens is a pain to remove. There is some clips that secure it in and our tech's say it may break if not taken out right. They recommend to bring it to the dealer.
If you go to the Edmund's True Market Value site and enter the options you mention, you come out with an approximate range of $28,500 to $32,000. Not knowing your location, I entered my zip (Evansville, IN) and came up with the following numbers.
Private party sale $28,552 Dealer sale $31,252 Certified used car $32,037
If I entered the info correctly, it seems as if $31,500 is a fair price, if not a bargain. Of course, I consider the AS a great car and a bargain regardless!
Thanks for pointing out that K&N partisans can "only provide you our opinion, not fact". My question is why can't you provide facts, not opinion? Can't anyone find even a single reputable unbiased independent scientific longitudinal study that shows what happens when you use K&N filters? If not, doesn't that say something powerful and important about the real efficacy and value of the product?. And might it also indicate that such a lengthy discussion about this topic is more marketing psychology than scientific engineering, akin to true believers wanting to reinforce their own beliefs and bring "converts" to the "faith"?
I keep reminding myself that K&N is a for-profit business which advertises and needs buyers. I hope this site doesn't become one dominated by either manufacturer "plants" or partisans pushing a particular synthetic oil, engine additive, car polish, cleaner, stereo speaker, etc.
I'm thinking we've demonstrated our intelligence by buying an LS and saving thousands over similar competitors. Shouldn't intelligent people rely on factual analysis of unbiased real world test results when evaluating whether a particular product is superior or cost effective? The back pages of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. are filled with all sorts of ads for various and sundry products that purport to do something great. I say let them and K&N pay for their advertising. We should be studying the proof! Not to mention studying what the FTC, Consumer Reports, et al say about the plethora of bogus marketing claims made on behalf of far too many automotive-related products!
Remember, I'm an avowed sceptic on these claims. That makes me biased against the claims. Peer reviewer of published articles should be non-biased in order not to slant the results. If I were to go looking, I'd likely be biased to find things that will confirm my bias.
Nor am I making any positive assertions of benefit or aspersions of harm. The partisan bears the burden of proof. Should be simple matter for a true believe to steer us all to some published test results? Has anyone checked out K&N's web site to see if they publish "unbiased" scientifically valid longitudinal test results (done double blind with a control group)?
I think that what I have seen put out by FTC and Consumer Reports justifies my healthy scepticism about automotive-related product claims. Check out the FTC's web site and look over some of their materials.
I read all posts and if I have an opinion, or feel I can offer some input I will respond. I never had any problem with any topic you or others chose to discuss. For example, If I don't want to read about Zaino Wax for the 100th time, I would just skip to the next post. I think its fine to ask questions and have reasonable discussions; this is how we all learn. Lets try not to make it personal. It is my opinion that it's unreasonable to think every opinion has to be based on studies and scientific papers. Opinions are just that: opinions. This is true even if there is no evidence either way who is right. Opinions are like [non-permissible content removed]: everyone has one. As far as the K&N filter goes, I investigated the hell out of it, that's how I got in touch with Rich at K&N. I found no other info from any qualified source that the filter would be harmful to the LS. In fact the Ford engineers stated that the the intake and exhaust were the only thing that could be safely modified to increase horsepower. Since they make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock,Rotax Engines, Harley Davidson,and the filters that come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. That's good enough for me. I personally noticed an increase in performance and like the sound the intake makes now when I stomp on it. This is my opinion based on my experience alone. Let's agree to disagree civilly.
Has anyone seen or heard of anyone manufacturing a carbon fiber dash kit?
Mine is a Black LS-8 Sport with Charcoal interior and I think the fake wood trim really looks terrible. Especially around the ashtray/shifter because it is getting scratched up from me always leaving my sunglasses there.
Even a kit that is just grey or black inserts would look better than the "wood".
Ordered the kit a few days ago, and wondering if I need to wait for warmer weather to install it. I've read the instructions on their Web site and there's no mention of required ambient temperature. We have temps in the 50s but still cold at night. (Note to Californians: "cold" means below freezing, not "gee, it's cold, better wear socks today.") Has anyone done their dash in less than "room temperature" conditions?
K&N published their test results and the facts are right there. Exceeds OEM specs for filtration while providing greater airflow. Very close to paper filters. These are used by very reputable companies and by racers (even in the desert, which has to be the worst environment for dust particles). The only thing I have ever heard is that the oil can foul the sensors downstream but I suspect this is only if the oil isn't applied properly. Holley just came out with their own version of the K&N. You would think that the paper filter mfrs would come out with their own test disproving K&N's claims if they could. That they haven't is enough for me.
In case you haven't noticed, there is a pattern with Giowa's posts. He asks for test results and when he gets them, discounts them because he says they're biased. When asked if he would perform the tests, he declines saying he's biased because he's a skeptic (a skeptic would be the perfect tester provided the tests are objective and not subjective). I absolutely guarantee you that if you came back tomorrow with a totally independent lab test showing the K&N worked as advertised, he would find something wrong with the test that (in his mind) would invalidate the results. Every time he's presented with facts contrary to his argument, he changes the subject or goes off on a tangent. It is impossible to carry on a civilized, rational discussion with him, so don't even try. In time you'll learn to ignore him like most of us already have and your blood pressure will drop about 30 points.
Sorry to give you bad news. Took a minute to leaf thru some back issues. Check out the following two articles in Car & Driver:
1. July, 1998, Long-term Catera Report, p. 123: "Less successful was our experiment with a K & N air filter ($49), which we installed in the hope of getting a few more inexpensive horsepower. We compared the K & N with a new stock filter, as well as as filter used for 10,000 miles. The chart reveals our average test results with each filter.
Judging by those figures, we would consider these famous oiled-foam air cleaners for their long life rather than for any performance improvement."
I'd think the Catera is a decent car to test K&N filters in vis-a-vis LS.
2. November, 1998, Long-term test Prelude SH test, p. 165: "installed an HKS Super Mega Flow air-cleaner kit on the Prelude ($200). The kit replaces the stock air-cleaner box ... tested back-to-back with the factory setup and clean filter.
filter 5-60 5-100 Top Speed
stock 7.9 20.8 139 HKS 7.8 20.5 141
The performance increase comes hand in hand with seven (7) extra decibels of honking intake noise at full throttle, which staffers found either amusing or annoying, depending upon their age."
If anything C&D was probably biased in favor. They wanted more power and better performance. Not sure the HKS numbers would be statistically significant. And notice the noise penalty!
This is the Lincoln LS forum, I don't work for K&N, and If you don't like my real world driving experience comments about my use of K&N filters, then please find something else to do!
Ninety Nine percent of the participants are using this forum as an effective medium to exchange ideas and feedback about their LS's. This is why we all are here.
As with most cases where true believers or partisans encounter a sceptic or receive credible info they don't like, the first thing done is to attack the source. Nice job akirby. A credit to cult leader leaders and indoctrinators worldwide!
Since many of you have previously attacked the automotive press, I'm guessing you'll attack the source or their methods or something. But it will be you disputing someone else's published test results. If you don't like 'em publish your own. And if K&N "knew" C&D was wrong, K&N could've sued for defamation. I don't remember C&D ever retracting what they wrote about the K&N filters in their article.
Comments
This is the E-mail I received from Richard Blum at K&N Filters in response to Questions I had about a post on another site warning about the use of K&N filters.
Dear customer,
The post regarding the construction/mining equipment is a fake that has
been around as long as I have been here. How do I know it is fake? We DO
NOT MAKE filters for anything over one ton including construction/mining
equipment! These kind of filters have pleat depths as thick as 3 - 4
inches. We do not make filter material with that kind of pleat depth and
never have! Here is the truth...
Our filters are tested by 2 outside, independent laboratories. They
have been proven to stop at least 97% of particles on a SAE fine dust test.
This test uses mostly particles in the 0 - 5 micron range but goes up to 20
microns. For comparison, a paper filter stops 98% on the same test and the
OEM minimum standard is 95%. Foam is generally the worst media with a
typical efficiency rating of 75%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be
more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of
a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well. As it
get dirty, the effectiveness rises to 99% without a loss of flow. Paper too
hits 99% but with a significant loss of flow.
We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off
road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their
cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here
we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing
every year.
We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock,
Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the
2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made the filters used in the Apache
helicopters used in Desert Storm and the US Marine Corps new Osprey
tilt-rotor aircraft. If they work in these conditions they will work for
you.
Your Lincoln LS uses part# 33-2148 with an msrp of $47.62. It will
give you a 2 - 4 % horsepower increase. For a dealer near you call
888-425-0325 and we are at most auto parts chains. PS, you may post my
response if you are a member and able to. I could not find a place to do it
myself.
Thanks for asking, Rick
Tom...
The front suspension is a strut-type suspension, a first for a Jaguar. Curb weight 3400 to 3500 pounds. Jag claims a 3.0 w/ a manual gearbox can hit 0 - 60 mph in 6.6 seconds.
C&D weren't able to drive the car to verify the claims. Nor is the cost known at this point. Best guess is $31,000 for the base X-type 2.5L to more than $39,000 for a 3.0L automatic.
Since K&N filters are stock on some Ford products and the CAFE numbers are important, the obvious question is: Why is not a K&N filter the factory standard on the LS and (excuse me) the Jag S-Type?
Jim
The bad grounds cause a voltage drop, which causes the seat mechanism to drop out on low voltage. There are several grounds under the dash. I don't know where, but the dealer I used can probably tell you. They are airfield Lincoln/Mercury at 513-874-3740. Ask for Tony Blaine; he is the service director.
Since they have fixed that, there has been no problem. Prior to that the failure to return rate was about 50%. This could also be the problem with the other dash instruments.
Good luck
BTW, I haven't gotten a single response from the BMW 5-series contingent as to a) if they drove a LS prior to purchasing a 5-series, why they chose the 5-series, and b) what they thought of the LS.
Wasn't expecting any great response, but wasn't expecting none either. Can't say I was totally surprised.
Brian
I saw your recent posting to the 5 series board and have some thoughts for you as to why you may not had much input...
As you may be aware, there are numerous on-line boards for current BMW owners, and unlike your board here, many posters here are not current owners. It appears that you have a large contingent of current LS owners who use your board as their main source of owners info. I believe however, many others use these boards as a source of pricing and optional equipment opinions, as opposed to your board which is more of a well run on-line owners club.
I also think that any BMW owner who visits your board would also see that your current LS owners may have answered your questions already for you. The 5 series, pound for pound, is not in the same price league as the LS. I do not believe that most BMW owners consider the LS a direct competitor, but view the Lexus GS as targeted more closely to the 5 series.
I think you have a great board here and trying to take the BMW 5 series on does nothing for the LS. Those who paid a premium for a BMW did so not by comparing feature for feature on paper with the LS, but by the intangibles the LS will hopefully gain after more time. If you cannot feel those intangibles be glad....you saved a lot of money ;-)
Thank you for your response to my question/concern with the K&N filter. However, the message you quote in your response (from who I assume in a K&N representative) is somewhat misleading. As a former design/development engineer on gas turbine engines (as used on the Apache attack helicopter, and the Osprey tilt rotor aircraft), they DO NOT USE air filters as piston engines do. The only thing that I can think that this person could be implying is that their filters are used to condition/filter air within the aircraft cabin. Turbine engines in aircraft applications never employ air filters for air used in the combustion process. Notwithstanding, the testing this person refers to may not necessarily be a definitive test for automobile air filters (although, it may be). His response also does not address my concern that the K&N filter is superior to the OEM filter provided on the LS (he only refers to a minimum standard for OEM filters). I have the general opinion that the "improved air flow" claim by K&N is achieved by poorer filtration. If I am correct, it would not surprise me to hear that folks using such a filter would see improved performance and gas mileage after the initial use. But after prolonged exposure to "dirty air", I would also expect to see performance deterioration due to dirt induction.
Perhaps I am wrong in my general assessment of the K&N filter, but without support from an independent source, I would be reluctant to adopt the K&N filter.
So you see, some of us BMW guys can think outside of the box. :-)
Any advice?
Brian
Jim
Has anyone found ss exhaust tips that will work without having to cut the bumper cover? Source and price?
Tell him the filters are used on the electronics cooling fans. He is
correct, a K&N does not filter as well as paper. We rate at 99.05%
effective and paper is 99.24%. Remember, the OEM minimum standard is 96%
and both are well above that. Less the 1/4 of 1% difference in filtration
for 33% more air is a great trade off in my opinion and millions of other
happy customers. If you are that concerned about that slight a difference,
leave the vehicle stock. His loss.
Thanks, Rick
As I stated in my last post contact him direct at richardb@knfilters.com with your concerns.
Tom...
The only thing of value left to talk about, which was what should've started the lengthy discussion, might be some real world independent tests from recognized, reputable sources which show how these products perform. Until I see that, I ain't sold on anything. Can any of you K&N boosters provide us such unbiased, scientific info?
I'll follow up with Rick. I appreciate your effort. My apologies to all board members here who feel I have occupied too much time discussing the merits of the K&N filter and their potential to enhance performance.
2. I'd add redact 1228 to say "purported" or "unsubstantiated" in front of the words "merits" and "potential" in #1228 above. I'd love to see some reliable, independent long-term studies, that also look at mileage, engine wear, mechanical failures, etc. Anyone have any? I'd love to be a true believer and jump on the bandwagon but guess I'm just a bit sceptical until clear & convincing probative evidence is proffered.
Tom...
2. And if you and others complain about certain threads going on too long or being repetitive (and I've been chastised for the old I-6 issue), why not be consistent and hold the plethora of K&N postings to the same standard? How many K&N posts have there been here at the LS site over I-XIII? Bet way more than about I-6/V-6. Maybe more than about stereo mods/upgrades, though that might be closer?
meredith "K & N Air Filters - Bolt on Power?" Jan 22, 1999 1:18am
BUT WHAT DOES THAT MATTER. I have read that site and there is very little discussion on it about it's application to Lincoln LS's. I don't care about the claims of other car owners. If you were to compare the number of posts to those in the V-6 I-6 "controversy", I am positive that it would pale in comparison, but more importantly, this seems to be of more interest to most people and it is not just someone repeating their position ad nauseum.
In short, and IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with these posts. It would be nice to have had someone point out that there was a whole subject devoted to K&N, but it really is inappropriate to criticize those who post things that are of interest to some LS owners just because they may not be of interest to others.
giowa: Yes you have been attacked in the past for extensive discussion topics. While I'm sure you didn't like the attacks, and I know I was one of them, with the K&N topic now you realize what the other participants who did not share your enthusiasm on the subject went through. The K&N discussion is educational, even though we seem to be at an impasse.
K&N filters do work. I've used them on numerous cars since the late seventies, including some highly stressed, high-mileage modified turbo engines. I can't say that the filter let more dirt into the engines because honestly it wasn't enough of an issue for me to worry about.
Rick from K&N was answering our question. He is also in engineering, not sales. And for whatever it is worth, filters only perform at their initial rating only until they start to get dirty. At that point filtration efficiency goes up and air flow starts to go down. A dirty air filter will probably get to 100% filtration efficiency but air flow would drop to close to 0%.
So it's a trade-off. If folks don't feel comfortable with using a K&N filter, please don't feel obligated to use one just because we suggest it. You need to feel comfortable with your decision and to do that you need information. Those of us who have the K&N can only provide you our opinion, not fact.
If we want to continue having this forum be the place for LS owners AND LINCOLN MANAGEMENT to come to then we need to remember that they won't keep reading if we degrade into a bickering, unprofessional forum.
So Please everyone take a chill pill, think of sitting in the sunny (insert your choice of temperature) in (insert your choice of paradise) drinking (insert your choice of beverage) with (insert your choice of partner) and RELAX
Brian
Michael, who is DYING to have a clean car again :~(
Brian
I talked to a real sharp engineer at the Ford Technical hotline named Wayne Burbank. He said that every vehicle should be diagnosed on an individual basis. He did say that he had a few calls on this concern and there is no all encompassing fix. Here is a list of things that he mentioned it could be.
1) The injector rail pressure sensor could be reading too low forcing the powertrain control module to deliver more fuel than needed.
2)The fuel delivery system ie injectors, fuel regulators, oxygen sensors.
3)The powertrain control module could have an internal concern (not likley).
4)TSB 00-25-07 has a lot of information that could be affecting the fuel system.
I hope this is some help to you.
Brian Glastetter
Rancho Ford L/M
Shop foreman
p.s.
The over head light lens is a pain to remove. There is some clips that secure it in and our tech's say it may break if not taken out right. They recommend to bring it to the dealer.
Private party sale $28,552
Dealer sale $31,252
Certified used car $32,037
If I entered the info correctly, it seems as if $31,500 is a fair price, if not a bargain. Of course, I consider the AS a great car and a bargain regardless!
I keep reminding myself that K&N is a for-profit business which advertises and needs buyers. I hope this site doesn't become one dominated by either manufacturer "plants" or partisans pushing a particular synthetic oil, engine additive, car polish, cleaner, stereo speaker, etc.
I'm thinking we've demonstrated our intelligence by buying an LS and saving thousands over similar competitors. Shouldn't intelligent people rely on factual analysis of unbiased real world test results when evaluating whether a particular product is superior or cost effective? The back pages of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. are filled with all sorts of ads for various and sundry products that purport to do something great. I say let them and K&N pay for their advertising. We should be studying the proof! Not to mention studying what the FTC, Consumer Reports, et al say about the plethora of bogus marketing claims made on behalf of far too many automotive-related products!
Nor am I making any positive assertions of benefit or aspersions of harm. The partisan bears the burden of proof. Should be simple matter for a true believe to steer us all to some published test results? Has anyone checked out K&N's web site to see if they publish "unbiased" scientifically valid longitudinal test results (done double blind with a control group)?
I think that what I have seen put out by FTC and Consumer Reports justifies my healthy scepticism about automotive-related product claims. Check out the FTC's web site and look over some of their materials.
Tom....
Mine is a Black LS-8 Sport with Charcoal interior and I think the fake wood trim really looks terrible. Especially around the ashtray/shifter because it is getting scratched up from me always leaving my sunglasses there.
Even a kit that is just grey or black inserts would look better than the "wood".
Tom...
Scott
In case you haven't noticed, there is a pattern with Giowa's posts. He asks for test results and when he gets them, discounts them because he says they're biased. When asked if he would perform the tests, he declines saying he's biased because he's a skeptic (a skeptic would be the perfect tester provided the tests are objective and not subjective). I absolutely guarantee you that if you came back tomorrow with a totally independent lab test showing the K&N worked as advertised, he would find something wrong with the test that (in his mind) would invalidate the results. Every time he's presented with facts contrary to his argument, he changes the subject or goes off on a tangent. It is impossible to carry on a civilized, rational discussion with him, so don't even try. In time you'll learn to ignore him like most of us already have and your blood pressure will drop about 30 points.
1. July, 1998, Long-term Catera Report, p. 123: "Less successful was our experiment with a K & N air filter ($49), which we installed in the hope of getting a few more inexpensive horsepower. We compared the K & N with a new stock filter, as well as as filter used for 10,000 miles. The chart reveals our average test results with each filter.
filter 0-60 0-90 1/4 mile
stock (new) 8.4 19.1 16.5 @ 84 mph
stock (old) 8.5 19.4 16.5 @ 84 mph
K & N (new) 8.4 19.4 16.5 @ 84 mph
Judging by those figures, we would consider these famous oiled-foam air cleaners for their long life rather than for any performance improvement."
I'd think the Catera is a decent car to test K&N filters in vis-a-vis LS.
2. November, 1998, Long-term test Prelude SH test, p. 165: "installed an HKS Super Mega Flow air-cleaner kit on the Prelude ($200). The kit replaces the stock air-cleaner box ... tested back-to-back with the factory setup and clean filter.
filter 5-60 5-100 Top Speed
stock 7.9 20.8 139
HKS 7.8 20.5 141
The performance increase comes hand in hand with seven (7) extra decibels of honking intake noise at full throttle, which staffers found either amusing or annoying, depending upon their age."
If anything C&D was probably biased in favor. They wanted more power and better performance. Not sure the HKS numbers would be statistically significant. And notice the noise penalty!
Ninety Nine percent of the participants are using this forum as an effective medium to exchange ideas and feedback about their LS's. This is why we all are here.
Since many of you have previously attacked the automotive press, I'm guessing you'll attack the source or their methods or something. But it will be you disputing someone else's published test results. If you don't like 'em publish your own. And if K&N "knew" C&D was wrong, K&N could've sued for defamation. I don't remember C&D ever retracting what they wrote about the K&N filters in their article.