Why do you guys even use it? I never used it and never will. If you're worried about misspelling just check it yourself as you type. That's why it's optional.
Thomas - I called Troncalli to see if they could check my tranny about a year ago and was told that the transmission guy quit (apparently months earlier) and they couldn't even look at it. I (stupidly) thought that since they were a Jaguar dealer they would have great service. If it's any consolation, the remaining Jaguar dealership was apparently bought out by Nalley. No more Troncalli in Roswell.
I, for one, am glad that Ford is finally doing something about their dealers. It's a shame they have to circumvent state franchise laws to give their customers better service.
I agree. Why use it? It isn't as though this is the Literature and spelling group. As long as it is intelligible, who cares? If you can't spell at all, then post another message claiming it was that #@$#* spell checker again. Unlike some forums I read, no one seems too uptight about spelling here. Even when we disagree, no one has stooped to that last stand of the defenseless, moaning about the spelling and grammar. (or is it grammer?)
As I am fairly new to this board, I am guessing that this issue has probably already been discussed and resolved, but I cannot seem to get my driver's side door panel to stop squeaking and creaking. The dealership has pulled the panel off twice now and they sprayed some silicon lube on the backside, which helped, but has not cured the problem. It is especially noticeable when the temp drops below 32. Any ideas or suggestions?
The new part is in. The only problem is that it is the console frame. I should find out Monday about the real part number and ordering it. Edmunds' spell checker is giving my Websters a workout!
I'm guessing development and certification costs for a V-8 manual would probably top a million to two million dollars. EPA certification by itself is around a half-mil. And who knows how much for the option in the production line costs. So Lincoln would have to see a large enough demand for this option to be able to recoup their investment, which depending on corporate policy, might have to be accomplished in a year's period. So they are looking what else they can do for that amount of money.
Currently we are the enthustiast minority who don't mind talking TSBs and joining clubs(thankfully!) and who probably wouldn't mind spending say an extra $2,000 to get a manual V-8. For Lincoln to get break even on the 2 million would require sales of 1,000 cars with the option. Right now that would mean 1% of sales would be needed to satisfy that requirement. One of the questions raised on this is would the 1% of sales come from the 3% that Lincoln planned on for the V-6 manual whose development, certification and tooling costs have already been factored in, or would these buyers be from the other models.
I guess part of the question would be how much would people(non-enthusiast) be willing to pay to get a manual V-8 option and would there be enough volume to pay for it?
Or would it be better to enhance the performance of the V-6 manual significantly, possibly up to the level of the current V-8 and market it as a performance model, while the V-8 models would be marketed as the luxury sports model?
1. reneleblanc: Not sure I could've said it any better. We need to keep focused on improving the breed so as to overcome prevailing marketplace psychology regarding performance & Lincolns. Having a kick-butt LS8 manual would do wonders for Lincoln, in general, and LS, in particular. doesn't even have to sell that well to have great positive impact. Notice that BMW 540i manual really doesn't sell that many but generates tons of interest in 3, 5, & 7 Series!!!
2. ls1bmw0: Does Dodge make a fortune on Vipers? Guessing the return on their investment, purely as measured by per unit Viper profits, is negligible if not potentially negative, when all costs are factored in. However, the publicity and marketing exposure it generates as well as the lasting psychological impression it leaves in the marketplace and its impact on showroom traffic becomes a hard-to-measure but real world profit/ROI consideration. Kind of like why grocery stores & dept stores have loss leaders. Lose $1 on one item to make $10 on lots of other items. If I eliminate the loss leader I lose $9; I don't save $1. And please do remember that within the past 2 years Ford blew over $6,000,000,000 (billion) as part of a highly controversial intricate stock scheme that was designed purely to benefit the minority Ford Family shareholders. They could own fewer of their precious family class shares (which give them special voting power and which rest of us can't own) but still maintain same or more of the company. (It was this stock scheme that caused me to comment a long time ago that Ford could've and should've used that money for new product development, including I-6 engines in luxury sport platforms.)
Check out the International Business Section of the 3/3/01 issue of NY Times. Headline story about GM and Ford losing money and market share in Europe. Lack of diesels a huge part of problem. Says diesels account for 37% of European market last year, expected to hit 40% this year. Ford now investing $360 million to build a diesel-engine manufacturing and development center at its closed Dagenham, England, assembly plant; investing another $140 million in diesel joint venture with Peugeot- Citroen. That's half a billion dollars on diesels. Wonder if a turbo-diesel might make it into a Lincoln in future, maybe an LS, or Jag, S-type? An I-6? (Article also mentions that one of Ford Europe's successes is the redesigned Mondeo sedan, which is the soon-to-be-in USA Jag X-type.)
I agree with much of what you say, but I suspect you don't hold Diamler/Chrysler stock. A loss leader says you lose a dollar here to make more elsewhere. If you have been following the news out of Auburn Hills in the Detroit Free Press(freep.com), it appears as if Chrysler has been losing money on everything. If given my choice of unexpected gifts, I'd rather have Ford than Chrysler stock right now.
Isn't it kind of funny that the "Germans" (i.e., MB) finally conquered a big portion of "America" (i.e., Chrysler), but now they are having serious indigestion? Guessing they wish they hadn't eaten this meal! They were in for big troubles when Bob Lutz bailed out of Chrysler before the blitzkreig. A true enthusiast executive! Saw him in news recently lambasting so many of the hideous and non-produceable concept cars making the auto show rounds. Forget where he is working now, but wish he'd come back to US auto industry. Anyone listening at DC or GM? (Fortunately, Ford does have some enthusiast executives.)
And, to be fair to DC, when we talk about the other side of the pond, DC's MB runs circles around Ford Europe. Ford Europe skidding downward for over a decade. Didn't Bob Lutz run Ford Europe in '80s when they were last great?
I cant help you with the door squeak but I can tell you I have a terrible squeak in the instrument panel that also is quite prevalent in temps below 40. Had it back to the dealer 3 times now without any luck. Personally I don't think the dealers take this kind of problem seriously and just wait for us to go away... or wait for summer so they can see...all fixed!! I still love the car but the squeak really grates on my nerve's. My 95 thunderbird was as quiet as a mouse and I hate the fact that my 38K investment for the LS has to yell at me all the time..
Kevin I know so don't say it... stop whinning over such a trivial problem...
I have been gone a few days, but I do wish to thank you for your notation about 100 posts back (which can sometimes be only a few hour's worth of posting in this topic) about the BMW 5 series topic that did not draw any responses.
The S-Type V6 is offered with a Getrag M5, although not in the USA. I'm guessing guess this to be the same Tranny as the LS, with the same badly-spaced gear ratios. The Jag V6 engine has a great torque curve, and dishes out 240HP @6800. (I'm guessing that the more sophisticated intake technology is responsible for most of this advantage over the LS V6.) With this engine/tranny, the Jag does 0-60 MPH in 6.9, top speed 146MPH (when not limited). Perhaps the engine and associated controls could be offered in the LS with little additional cost new Development... although the need for an M6 (or at the very least, better spacing of ratios than the current M5!) would remain unaddressed. I personally prefer more higher tech and less "iron" in the quest for better throttle response. I WILL put my money down to purchase an LS with this engine and a decent M6 . Please, L-M: I've got the money, but I'm not going to spend it on the current powertrain, only to be HUMBLED by Maximas at every straightaway!
The recent discussions re CR piqued my interest since I, too have been skeptical about their frequency-of-repair charts for years. So, on my train ride home today I took a closer look.
Some questions-why would the V6 have a notably higher incidence of electrical problems than the V8? As far as I can tell, the two are identical in this regard. They define this category as "power accessories and controls" What's different (electrically) between the two. Maybe Dick Cupka could enlighten us on this one.
They state that the 2000 models were less than 6 months old with an average of 3K miles when their owners responded. Well, since the 2000 LS was launched in about mid-1999, the results have to be skewed by early build models and the gremlins we all know about.
While trying to figure all this out my eyes drifted across to the facing page and landed on the box for the Honda Odyssey mini-van. OK, here's a brand that's certainly known for top reliability. It's record for the 2000 model is quite similar to the LS V6. "Extra weight in the scoring is given to engine, cooling, transmission, driveline." OK, identical marks for both in those categories. LS is slightly worse in "Ignition"-whatever that means. They no longer explain what the categories include. Both have the same bad mark for "Electrical"; same slightly worse mark for "Integrity." However, Honda is worse than LS in "Hardware." I guess we have to assume that the remaining categories are given equal weight. So I guess that to them, a failed A/C compressor, for example, counts the same as a whine in the cassette player. How then, does the Honda earn an "average" rating and the LS V6 "worse than average." Their explanation under "why it looks reliable but gets no check" might work for the extreme example they chose (Corvette vs. Honda CR-V, but it doesn't work here.I know it would tear at their heartstrings to say that any Honda was "worse than average." BTW- the Honda with it's less than stellar record by their own methods, gets a "recommended" rating while the LS V8, with its identical frequency of repair rating does not. This despite them earlier in 2000 calling it the best American sedan they have ever tested. So, it's the best American sedan they have ever driven, has an identiacl repair record to the vaunted Honda, but the Honda is recommended in its class while the LS V8 is not.
I think CR performs a valauble and unique service, but let them adhere to their own mission statement.
I saw a new LS ad on TV tonight. This one actually plays up the sport sedan angle. Voice over states something like "the luxury of the corner office that can handle the corners." Guy is shown shifting the SST-sorry Stanny, et al. I like it. Big improvement, but still a little too low key IMHO.
A new twist on sudden acceleration. In a local news item, 2 mechanics in a gas station lot were working on a Ford Econoline van when it started on its own and "took off across the street." With one guy in hot pursuit it clipped one car and broadsided a Chevy Lumina, flipping it and pinning it against a building with a father and his 5 year old son inside. Luckily, no one was hurt. The 2 mechanics claim the keys were in the ignition in the accessory position and they were pushing the van when it satred on its own and took off. You know there's got to be more to this story.
Giowa-for the record, there has already been a Diesel Lincoln. Some early Mark VII's were offered with a Diesel sourced from a place near and dear to your heart. That's right, it was a BMW I-6 Diesel. I can't rememeber if had a turbo or not. Needless to say, this was not a smashing success.
There is no way Consumer Reports can be said to be unbiased in reporting, particularly when it comes to cars. They have their pets and they stick with them. I too wished they would remain true to their mission statement but I long ago gave up. Way to much into politics, lobbying, telling us what's good for us etc. I want them to test products and report. Cancelled them a few years ago. I do try to buy the spring annual auto issue though. As we are well aware, they don't test with the enthusiast in mind, nor should they.
Yes, I went through a lot of trouble to get my LS 01 manual. Getting to test drive the car required an hour drive to a dealer who had one in stock. I live right outside Philadelphia PA, with three or four LM dealers within 20 minutes drive, but none of them had one in stock, or arrange to have test drive. Would I buy another one - Yes in a heart beat. I love the handling of the car as well as the luxury features of it. It is the perfect combination.
Wood trim - get it all over the car, like Infiniti I30 or the Acura RL. It does make a difference! Wood or plastic, it a question of class, not taste. It also has to to do with the car's price and position. If it will not raise the price of the car more than $500.00, it is a no brainer. Higher price will require the imitation to keep the price in line.
Two other issues:
Interior: Please make room for sun glasses (a place for two pairs for two drivers will even be better), A change tray, storage bins in doors for CD's, and umbrella would be appreciated.
Cup Holders: PLEASE make room for two cup holders for driver and passenger that can do the following: 1. store TWO 20 Oz, bottles, jumbo cups as well as cans and regular cups. Also, kindly place them in such a way that one can shift in manual or SST without putting their hands over hot coffee and so on.
Cell Phone integration: Provide a generic inteface for a cell phone hands free kit, so all the consumer will have to do is: Get the proper mount and wire adapter to meet their specific cell car adapter model. Currently, there are already wires ready for the add on mike, and plug ins for audio out from cell car adapter and mute/phone on as well, why not add them as one connector and provide an open wire on the other side, identifying the leads. Yes, I know that may have to give up the programmable pre dials using the radio buttons, but again, this will be a small price to pay. Saab has it now, and it works for them!.
Last but not the least, and this one is a biggie here in the east coast: AWD option. The Audi A6 has been selling nice numbers here, including manuals. The reason - people are looking for AWD. I know that I am asking now for 2000 posts telling me why is is a shame to place it in a sport sedan and so on, but the facts are that Audi is making a living selling them and it is a sport sedan/wagon, and Audi A6 is a sport car from the word go. Also, I read somewhere that MB is going to offer it on the S class (it is already available on the E class) as well, BMW is introducing it on their 3 serias, and so on. Think about it in snow conditions: AWD and manual power. I understand the Jaguar X will have it as well. Right now, can the LS compete with an Audi A6 2.7T? and get this the A6 is available in manual or auto. Just a point for thought. I know that developing an AWD system is not simple or cheap, but more and more car makers are moving for an AWD model that IS NOT an SUV.
Diesel engines. As someone who grew up in Israel and visits there regularly, I notice more and more Europian car makers are selling diesel models. In the past, Peugeot-Citroen was working with Ford on diesel engines and they had a lot of success with it, including here in the US where the Peugeot 505 was sold as a diesel Taxi. I have rented several of diesel models in Israel and I realy enjoyed them. For the LS to be sold in Euroupe a diesel option is a must. Would it do a lot of good to the US market? I don't think so.
Like desertguy, I gave up on Consumer Reports a few years ago due to their politics (i.e., gov't regulation as panacea.) I looked through some back issues at the library, and subscribed to their Web site last year when I began shopping for a new "entry-level luxury" car. Their first test of the LS prompted them to call it "the best American sedan we've ever driven", so their initial experience with build quality must have been pretty good. It's hard to understand the inconsistencies in their ratings, as pointed out above by drolds1, but they certainly exist, and they seriously undermine CU's credibility, IMO. Given their righteous aura of impartiality, I find this more irritating than criticism of the LS from Europhile "enthusiast" magazines.
It's been mentioned that we are (mostly) biased in favor of our cars, and should be aware of this when we react to criticism of the LS. As for myself, guilty as charged. (I plead 11,000 trouble-free, joyful miles as my excuse but no doubt there is some luck involved.) Nevertheless, this board and LLSOC remain the absolute best source of information available to owners and potential owners of the Lincoln LS.
I had the LS winshield replaced yesterday, result of sand pitting from a severe storm. The total cost, including all parts & labor & lifetime warranty was less than $500, and that's for the windshield w/rain sensor.
The professionals told me that if there are only a few pits, like 4, the windshield can be repaired, but a full field of pits, even very slight ones that do not snag your fingernail, can not be buffed out or distortion would result. I confirmed this from 2 sources.
Windshield replacement takes less than one hour, uses factory glass (of course), and in my estimation can only be done by a professional. I compared the removed windshield thickness with the replacement and other cars' windshields at the glass shop - I could not visually detect a difference in thickness.
Fortunately there is no pain damage on the hood, roof, side panels, etc. The minor "pitting" on the leading bumper plane is not noticeable, and well below normal wear and tear for a one year old car.
First time in about 30 years on the west Coast that I ran into this kind of sand storm, but I've hear they can do substantial damage. Guess I was both lucky, and unlucky at the same time.
Sawmill - I read your original post about returning from San Jose and going thru a big sand storm. I'm curious as to where did u hit this storm? Couldn't have been *too* close to San Jose (my fair city), could it?
(**** Warning - some not-so-flattering comments in here ****) I too saw the new CR issue and was very dismayed to see the 2000 LS V6 show up in the 'Used cars to avoid' column. Whatever CRs biases are (and I know they have em in spades) I'm not convinced they are afflicted with 'anti-American-car-bias' disease as are some of the other mags and seemingly many Newspaper car reviewers. Eg: they did call the LS 'the best American sedan ...' and they've gone out of their way to keep up the pressure on Isuzu and Suzuki for their apparently unstable SUVs.
That said, we gotta be real here. 2000 was the first year for the LS and it's had it's share of gremlins as posts here have identified. Body hardware? lots of windows falling down. Electrical: how about heated seat failures, radio and radio control gremlins, shorts in the battery cables and bad grounds? Body integrity? I've read several complaints about squeaks and rattles here. My own experience with my new LS bears this out a bit: I'm going in Monday to have the radio replaced - it only turns on once out of every 5 to 10 tries.
We all know Lincoln has solved some of these issues (eg windows and heated seats) and is no doubt working on others. But having our LSs rated 'much worse than average' in reliability is very bad. Especially for resale value. I sincerely hope that LM can bring this rating up. I'd bet that the 2001s will rate somewhat better. But buyers are *real* sensitive to reliability and if it looks like the LS is becoming a rehash of the Catera vis-a-vis reliability, that'll be a big blow to the LS as competition for the beemers and the Japanese cars. (**** end of bad news - back to regular programming)
However, if one looks more closely at the CR data, some very strange things begin to show up, eg: The 2000 LS V8 has a ***better*** reliability chart than the 2000 BMW 3-series. Yet, the beemer's reliability verdict is 'better than average' while the LS is only average. Also: the level of 'owner satisfaction' is higher than average for the LS, even though the predicted reliability is much worse than average. Go figure :>) Another point: the LS V6 rates 3rd best in class comparison tests behind the BWM and Lexus ES300. They didn't test the LS V8. Anyone wanna bet where that would've rated? Finally, the LS rates second behind only the Volvo S80 as the safest car in it's class. And this includes not only crash ratings but brakes and handling as well.
My summary on the rating of the LS is that's it's a fantastic car in performance, safety, satisfaction and luxury. Now, all we need to do is make it a bit more reliable.
My red LS 5speed now has a whopping 600 miles on it. And I gotta say, and it's been said before, I like this car more and more each time I drive it. I love the 5speed. While the V6 does need more power (or I gotta be patient til I break it in) the feel I get as I run up thru the gears from a start is just so smooth and supple. The car really is fun. Some of the curves on hiway 17 that used to sort of sneak up on me in my Mark are now so easy to handle at higher speeds it's surprising. Tis a wonderful life, n'est pas?
Finally all the stories about unintended acceleration lead me to recount my story of the opposite. In the mid 70's I was a field engineer for a computer company. Did a lot of driving and decided to get a car as good on gas as I could find. I ended up with a (gulp) Renault 'Le Car' (aka the R5). It was a box on (tiny) wheels but it got mid thirties mileage. It actually was a pretty reliable car, but build quality? ... Once, when the car had about 20K miles on it, I was driving out to a call in the California central valley over hiway 152 out of Gilroy. Known as as a dangerous road then (and now) it's a 2-4 lane hiway that winds up and over a small range of hills. And people fly on the 4 lane sections. Anyway, I'm puttin along, going up a fairly steep hill in the outside lane, trying to keep up speed when - HEY, the car just loses all power (which isn't saying much) So I try pushing the gas pedal harder, which was usually an exercise in futility in this car, but this time even more so as - whoa!! - the pedal **falls off onto the floor** ?!! If it wasn't for a lane-wide median strip down the center of the road, i would've been dead meat. So I'm able to pull into the center of the road, cars flying by at 70 mph on both sides of me. Not very edifying. I'm able to squeeze the door open enuf to kneel on the ground and pick the gas pedal up and what do I find under it, laying on the carpet? - A single 3/4 inch long straight-as-an-arrow cotter pin which was the only thing holding the pedal on, but **had never had it's legs spread so it could do it's job!!** Thanks a lot Frenchy, I swore as I was able to put the pedal back on and spread out the pin and get the heck out of there.
PS: I noticed I forgot to mention this car in my histoire on LLSOC. Must've blocked it out!
Obviously I have a tremendous respect for the manual LS as I own one. It is nearly perfect, and I perfer it especially when compared to a 5 series. HOWEVER, if Lincoln refuses to offer a 6 speed manual for the V8 then I absolutely will buy the BMW in 3 years when I'm ready for a new car. LM you definitely have a BMW killer. It is only a question of whether you are serious in defeating BMW. I await your response: in available choices: V8 manual or stay with your wimpy V6. I know from Jorgers post that LM THINKS V8 manual sales will not make up for the investment requred, but I (IMHO) tell without it you will lose sales to BMW, I gurantantee Mine and I suspect others as well, in the years to come. I hope to be able to "Buy American" but from Jrogers expression I think I will buying BMW, even with the exhorbitant service pricing. VERY DISAPPOINTING. Come On Jrogers, use your infulence and DEMAND a V8 Manual. It will be a seller, and definately will enhance LM's reputation! We wait to see if you do indeed have brass b***s! Please GO FOR IT!
Not a bad idea, the letter. Sometimes it has an effect:
After the latest long-term review of the LS here on Edmunds repeated for the umpteenth time their complaints about the auto tranny, I sent an email to them. Basically I suggested that they have one of the dealers do the PCM reflash as per the TSB.
I received an email back a couple of days ago asking if they could use my email in some new chat room or talk to the editors or some such new site they're doing. I said sure, but I don't know where the site is or even if it exists yet or I'd point to it here.
Sorry couldn't resist the rather bad pun on an old song! If one of you erstwhile CR readers could email me a copy of the report I will send them a letter requesting additional information to support their ratings. You guys are sure keeping me busy!
heyjewel: I received an email back from Edmunds also after I had sent them a rather turgid email complaining about the inequities in their review of the long-term BMW vs. the long-term LS. They wanted my okay also to include my email in their Letters to the Editor section. Should be interesting to see what their reply will be. I'm sure they will have their typical proper reasons for being biased for the BMW.
What's the latest news on Leavy Morgan's crew? Is the first race going to be Sebring? How about performance parts for our LSs (air mass sensor, wheels, etc.)? Not that you don't already have enough to do, writing letters to CU, changing over the LLSOC bulletin board, et. al. . . . ;-)
I did a thorough inspection of the engine compartment and vehicle for sand incursion. The LS was pretty dust-tight under the hood. Debris caught on the outer (A/C?) radiator, and suprisingly on the inboard radiator in the two-inch space between the two. You have to remove the black cover panel to see this. The tumbleweed fragments cleaned out easily with gentle prodding from a thin, wooden dowel and an air-hose.
The air filter box was immaculate post air filter - and stopped the dust, sand and twig fragments that were left on the bottom pre-filter. I'll change the air-filter as a precaution. I've got to admit, with all the talk about K&N's on the forum, I feel pretty good that I had the factory-spec motorcraft on the car - even though the air-flow may be restricted, it is a bit scary when you see the abrasive grit it blocked from entering the engine.
The headlight and foglights do not have to be replaced. The plastic handled the sand and debris much better than the glass. I guess the glass is brittle, and fragments break off causing tiny pits. The plastic doesn't fragment, and is hard to scratch, so there was very little damage. The Lincoln logo on the front took some visible hits though - it's clear plastic facing shows one or two pits over the black backgound.
In cleaning the car, I noticed the tray beneath the radiators, behind the lower louvres, collects a lot of debris. Anyone driving around leaves, or sand, should check this area periodically, since simple washing will not get the debris out.
heyjewel - the sandstorn was at Lebec, just before the incline to Gorman on the famous "Grapevine" of HOTROD LINCOLN song fame. San Jose is a wonderful city, second largest in California, and the city government would never allow weather like that around there.:-)
George! 600 miles? My lawnmower can go faster than a Manual with 600 miles! You need to drive this thing more. You have no idea what the terms "acceleration" , "redline", engine "growl", and "fun" are yet. She is just too tight. How many intersections have you stalled out at? My kids gave me a total raz over the times I restarted in the middle of the street. I was lucky I wasn't hit in the rear. I'm surprised you don't hate the car at this point.600 miles.I practically had to draft the car ahead to keep up speed. Or pedal/push the car. As I watched the Honda Civics/Accords/Integras blow me away (with their huge muffler/tailpipes hanging down and their blue headlight bulbs blaring), I reminded myself that 3500 miles was not that far off. But 3500 was only the beginning. Now at nearly 10,000 miles, I "think" it is safe to assume the car is broken in. What a difference between 600 miles and now. My car is a "jewel" now. I've subscribed to CR for many years. The years highlight is always the April "car" issue. To say that their review of the LS is contradictory is an understatement. I see no reason the the V-6 should be any different than the V-8 in any category. True, the first year or so had the window and tranny problems, but we are hearing very few complaints about the 2001s. I'm getting tired of the 3 series comparison. I wouldn't even consider such a tiny car unless I was the only occupant. And then it would be a two door M3. But I have always believed that a larger car with a reasonable weight could have excellent performance at a reasonable price and I think the LS is proof of that concept. I also feel that there is a market for a 540i 6- speed at a reasonable price. If that is too large a step for LM, I say make the LS Manual into a "separate" or special performance car. At least a "SVT" or "SVO" edition. The problem with the current Manual is hp/weight ratio. As a first step, can the Jaguar snob stuff and put in the VVT heads. Probably the most cost-effective performance boost for the factory. Jaguar buyers go for sheet metal. Ask the Jaguar salepeople how many times a potential buyer brings in an LS brochure and compares specs with the Jag. Not! The next step would be a six-speed for the V-6 which would allow for a deeper (3:31 or 3:58) rear and hopefully an LSD pumpkin. I think this will eventually become reality for CAFE reasons or to remain competitive. Everytime I pick up a magazine, another car is coming out with a six-speed. Not only the IS300,MB240,Audi, but the Focus and an econo-box from Nissan. If these two cheapies can go six-speed, why not the "near-luxury" LS? Stanny1, who is exercising his keyboard after an almost one week sabbatical during which his hard drive crashed and he had to rebuild his digital world (I know,always back-up!)
In today's mail I finally got my copy of the CR Annual Auto Issue. I think everyone should pour over their methodology carefully before reaching rash conclusions. You really have to study the "How to use the Frequency-of-Repair charts" (p. 76), esp. the discussion about the benchmark "average" reliable vehicle, and the "Reliability--Looking Forward" section (pgs. 30-31). I think what they came up with mostly makes sense.
I concur with Heyjewel's comments (#1370) about the '00 LS having various gremlins. I was plagued with repeated heated seat and airbag warning light problems. Others had window issues. Don't remember posters here saying these problems were more prevalent or not with 6 or 8, but they did happen to too many owners.
The 3.0L and 3.9L engines are different. I think it could be entirely possible that LS6 owners reported more electrical and ignition-related problems than LS8 owners. These were the only 2 areas that were different; the other 12 areas rated are identical for the LS6 & LS8.
As long as Lincoln proactively addresses these issues, we'll likely see an improved result next year.
Do keep in mind that if you don't like their results, subscribe and get a chance to provide input next year. I'd given up on CR about 10 years ago as too political, instead reading it at library each month. Then in January they sent me an offer I couldn't refuse! At the low, low price they offered for one year, I subscribed.
So, let me get this straight... If they did they survey 6 months after the 2000's were released, and most of the dealers were - really only ordering V8's, AND only a small percent of the LS's produced for the entire 2000 period had the V6... kinda make me believe that they had perhaps 20 or 30 V6 owners fill out their survey and a couple had the window failure and a couple the heated seats fail... big deal. I just about totally dismiss the survey, because of the "probably" small pool of owners represented. I'd give it more merit, if I knew that the numbers were truly representative of V6 or even V8 owners.
Yes, I did have the rear window fail on my V6, but I wouldn't call the car unreliable or whatever. AND, it seems from this board that the V8 owners have experienced more problems (ie flooding, not starting, extensive cranking, etc.) I don't really recall too many other V6 owners complaining on this board about engine problems, and I think we have quite a few V6 owners represented here on this board.
With the exception of one radio issue and my dealer putting in the wrong CD changer, I've been to the dealer for oil changes only. I too had a CR subscription. I even bought a TV based on their recommendations. That is a mistake I will not make again. I never had any of the problems CR implied that I should have with my 4 Sables, combined milage, 450k. As was said earlier, their repair histories do not tell the story. They didn't ask miles driven or routine repair as opposed to unexpected (yes, even Toyota's and Honda's shocks/struts, brakes, etc. wear out!). If I thought the repair was routine, I didn't mark it down. Right there is a skewed response. How many foreign car owners are driving around on worn out suspension parts claiming a perfect car? CR's repair claims are about as unscientific as any manafacturers claims. I quit believing CR years ago. It DOES make for good fiction.
It's rather interesting to note that just about all who post here do not find the latest findings from Consumer Reports to be reflective of their experience with the LS, V6 or V8. I grew up in a household that revered the findings of Consumer Reports as near gospel. It was only after I became a tax payer and a consumer that I became disillusioned with CR. My first 2 TV sets were purchased based upon their recommendations. They were both duds. Brands that supposedly had "better than average" incidents of repair were repeatedly brought in for repairs. Similar experiences with other household appliances as well. However, it wasn't until my wife and I purchased our Nissan Axxess minivan in 1989 that I finally gave up on CR. In CR's review and comparison test with other minivans, they absolutely ripped the Axxess (first minivan with dual sliding doors) for having a rear lift gate that swung up too high for the average woman driver to reach up and close. They even showed a photograph of a woman of short stature reaching awkwardly up to grab it, with a caption reading "the Nissan hop". What was truly ridiculous was the fact that the other minivans in the comparison (Dodge Caravan, Ford Aerostar, et. al.) had similar lift gate designs that opened even further, and would have been much worse for the poor woman shown in the photo! (My wife stands only 5' 2" and had no complaints) CR went on to criticize the Axxess for its overall vehicle dynamics, saying that it was more prone for rollover, etc. Well, my wife and I just retired that minivan about 3 months ago. It had over 205K mostly trouble free miles. All I have to say is . . . ROUTINE MAINTENANCE. After comparing all the minivans back in 1989, my wife and I liked the Axxess the best, and it drove/handled the best of all. CRs report didn't come out until we had the vehicle for over 6-months. I was shocked at their findings to say the least! I never renewed the subscription after that.
I think most of the folks that post here once believed that CR was an unbiased and fair critic. I also think that most folks here have learned otherwise. I have learned to trust my own instincts, research, and the opinion of respected sources, whether in print form or otherwise. THIS FORUM (the LS site on Edmunds) has been the best place to learn about this car. It's a shame that CR published findings about our car that differ so much from those who post here. We all know that CR has a significant influence on the masses, and that their findings could hurt our resale values. CRs findings do not however, make me second guess my decision to buy my car. Quite the contrary, their findings now just reinforce my thinking!
lolaj42: Unfortunately Sebring is out. Funding that Leavy was waiting on didn't come through in time. He is in final negotiations for a initial round of funding with a company now. When he gets it he will finish construction of the race car and is tentatively scheduling Mosport, Mid-Ohio or Sears Point. We'll know more in April about whether he was able to secure enough funding to put a full race team together with two cars and what races he will be planning on scheduling.
Mass air flow sensor has been developed for the V-8. Between the sensor change and a Borla cat-back system it generated an additional 20hp. I will be getting one of the prototype sensors within two weeks to get my impressions of it. The only downside of the new sensor is that with the long intake snout, there is a slight delay in throttle response. They are working on engineering an adapter that will put the sensor closer to the intake manifold, which will take care of the delay issue.
He is also working on getting wheels designed for the LS. I've seen pictures of the protype and they look really nice. I believe he's going to have them in the 18 x 8 and 18 x 9 size with the stock offset. Tire Rack does have wheels available for the LS also in a 18 X 7 size, don't know the offset though.
Borla is also working closely with him to re-do the LS system and get rid of those funky tips that they currently have.
I'm about to take my 00 LS V8 sport in to have the heating system checked for the second time. The first time they had it, they pulled the whole front console out and found a jammed value which controlled the air flow. They thought it happened during assembly. Well, a month or so later, at idle, I'm always getting cold air, almost A/C. Has anyone else experienced any problems with the climate system?
We shouldn't be surprised that the bias that exists in the auto rags perpetuates to a survey of CU members. It's the BMW types that can really get owners to buy into the myths that would describe flaws as features. My MB dealer tried it with me when I complained about squeaky brakes. Anyone else might have believed that its normal that a new C-class should sound like a garbage truck squealing to a stop because of the superior brake components they use. In this case, the customer might have a noteworthy flaw, but won't respond on a survey because they believe it is normal.
Here's more food for thought: reflecting on my own (LS) experience, think about how much a quality dealer service experience might tend to weight the feedback! Had my fit and finish issues been promptly corrected the first time at my purchase dealer - they probably would have been chalked up to new car prep and dismissed. After going to 3 dealers and the Lincoln No-Assistance center a few times, those minor issues take on a new life.
A final note on Consumer Reports and other Guides That Help You Decide Things. I always like cars that have poor ratings. The movies I enjoy often get 1 star out of 5. Many top-rated restaraunts serve food that really isn't that good. Sometimes you can't believe everything that's published (what a concept!).
For all you critics of CR's results and methodology, IF you don't believe what they report on V6 reliability (the not-so-good news), do you also disagree with what they said about other things (the good news)? Or are you saying you'll only believe good news?
CR also said lots of good things about the LS: "fun-to-drive with sportier suspension tuning"; "excellent crash results. Very good handling and brakes"; "standard V-6 is smooth": "quiet muscular V8; "handling is agile and the ride is comfortable". And they rated satisfaction with Lincoln dealers above average.
So for the critics, do you believe the good things they wrote? If so, why if you won't accept the bad?
Many of the posters here would hail CR as the new gospel...if the LS had received stellar reports. Being the thought police for any publications who find any flaws in this model will not improve the LS.
As an example, go through back issues of CR and look at the changes in the 5 series marks over the last 5 years or so. These improved marks came from visible changes in the car over time, not from angry letters from over zealous owners. I think you guys are assuming the LS can reign supreme in a very competitive segment after only two years of production from a nameplate not associated with the attributes the LS may indeed be evolving.
giowa & cb44. Personal prejudices certainly exist here, and anecdotal evidence can make or refute any point. My problem with CR is they reach (or at least publish) different conclusions for vehicles X and Y after amassing nearly identical data for the two. Only their editors know why.
I don't agree with the idea of a letter to CR on behalf of LLSOC. It would lend them legitimacy they have chosen to forfeit.
Scott PS Please forgive the "club business" in this forum.
I was just over there and Brian has the new message boards up & running. There's a new sign-up/login process which confused me a little, but some days that doesn't take much.
I long ago gave up on Consumer Reports, notwithstanding their review of the LS. I simply don't regard them as a valuable source for the information that they purport to offer. However, I'm also aware that I'm in the vast minority in my views. I'm of the opinion that the LM and Ford people that monitor this board feel as though their products are not getting a fair shake in the press, and would rather hear from consumers without having to rely on someone else to "filter" the responses.
IMHO, many of the people that monitor and participate on this board are searching for additional information sources to aid in their decision processes because the existing sources are either incomplete or not trusted. In my case, Consumer Reports lost its position as a trusted source in 1989.
Scott is correct. The new board is up and running. I still have a link to the old boards for the rest of this month, but please don't post anything to the old messages.
You don't need to sign-in to view posts except for the Members-only section. You will need to register if you want to post or to get to the Members-only section. It's not a separate board anymore, just a separate area in the overall board. While everyone first signs up please be patient with me giving access to the members-only area. I have to go into each member profile and grant access so once everyone starts signing up there will be quite a bit of volume initially.
The new board software is pretty cool. You can search across the entire forum, put emoticons in your posts, rate the subject and the poster, ignore the poster, etc. If you are familiar with Ultimate Bulletin Board from other discussion groups, then you'll feel right at home with this one.
Chapter coordinators have their own forums where they can post news and events that they are organizing. The coordinators will be the moderators of their forums. Tom, you're already set up.
If anyone has any suggestions for adding, changing or deleting the forums please email me since I did most of the work at 3am and I ran out of coffee!
Is interesting that almost all the people complaining about CR's reliability report base it on a comparison to BMW. I concur with cb44's post at #1389. CR's reliability ratings for the BMW 5 Series during MYs 94-98 are only average. Then for '99-'00 it goes to above average.
Take a look at some of the other natural competitors to the LS. The Catera soundly panned ("continued reliability problems"), and this after 4 years in the market! Jag S-type took the same hit as the LS6. Audi A6 hit ("reliability has fallen below average"). Volvo S80 hit ("reliability has been disappointing, so we can't recommend it"). New '01 MB C-class too new to get rated; however, in the '94-'99 MYs, only the '96 C-class rated above average. The other 5 years were just average. So you can't say CR is biased in favor of European cars.
CR's ratings for Japanese luxury makes Acura, Infiniti, & Lexus are uniformly above average. I think they earned their ratings the hard way: they build cars well. In a little over 3 years I put over 60,000 hard miles in my '96 Infiniti G20t. I never once had warranty work or a service repair!
I also noticed that the "Profiles/Snapshot" section of the CR Annual Auto Issue is showing that the "Next full report" for the BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS300, MB C-class, and Volvo S60 is May 2001, next month. Will be interesting to see what CR writes then about reliability, and whether they will mention the LS6 or LS8 as competing vehicles to these "sports sedans".
The folks that have reported disent with Consumer Reports do so due to CRs inconsistancy in reporting, not so much to their comparison to the BMW. I've only noted a few posts that even bother to mention BMW!
From my pespective, Consumer Reports has almost uniformly backed Japanese auto makes, particularly the premium brands. While I think that the Japanese manufacturers do, on average, produce a higher quality product, the gap has been significantly reduced in recent years by both the American and European makes. IMHO, this is particularly true in the luxury/near luxury models (i.e., the high end products from these manufactures). I do not think that the Europeans have any particular quality advantage over the American makes. I'd stack my Lincoln LS8 up against any competitor in the luxury/near luxury class as far as quality is concerned. While I've had my headlamps replaced, and my transmission reflashed, these have been EXTREMELY minor issues and were ultimately corrected during routing maintenance intervals. Read that as NO SKIN OFF MY NOSE!
As always, NICE JOB LINCOLN, the LS is one fantastic ride!
The Mercedes C class is too new to rate? When did it come out? They rated the LS after it had been out only 6 months! I'm surprised that they had enough respondents. Or perhaps that is the problem.
A recent posting reminded me of a question I've had about the rear seat air outlets at the rear of the center console. How much air comes out of them? I guess I'm expecting a hurricane force blast of air but all that I get(no matter the settings) is a fairly unimpressive breeze. Is this normal or do I (well, the car) have some sort of blockage or misaligned duct or...?
After I got my first survey and realized that CR got their UNSCIENTIFIC data by sampling only current subscribers, I lost faith in their reports. After I bought their top rated 26" TV which needed a power supply shortly after the warranty expired and a year and a half later needed $200 worth of repairs and a top rated washing machine which lasted a measly 5 years, I gave them no credence whatsoever. I do read their April issue for laughs. Their car reviews, good and bad, are like an episode of Fantasy Island.
My rear ducts also blow a breeze as do the ones in my Sable. Remember, the air has a very long way to go. To test for blockage, try this; close all the front registers. If the air increases out of the rear, there probably isn't any type of blockage, if it doesn't, there may be some type of restriction. Hope this helps.
I think this depends on what settings you have the HVAC set at. If I expect rear seat passengers, I select the dash vent and floor setting. This seems to increase the air flow. If I'm travelling alone or with only a front passenger, I generally run the defrost and floor setting. This decreases the airflow to the rear seat ducts. I only use the Auto mode in the two weeks that we laughingly refer to as summer here in the frozen tundra.
Consumer Reports magazine has 4.1 million subscribers, in part their mission as the largest non-profit educational and consumer product testing center in the world is to provide those subscribers with reliable information in product safety and product reliability to assist potential buyers in the decision process. Their testing and information gathering from their subscribers is to be used as a guide and not a guarantee. Anyone in the process of purchasing a new car or any product would do well to corroborate any published report, from any source, with all other available sources.
Comments
I, for one, am glad that Ford is finally doing something about their dealers. It's a shame they have to circumvent state franchise laws to give their customers better service.
Edmunds' spell checker is giving my Websters a workout!
Currently we are the enthustiast minority who don't mind talking TSBs and joining clubs(thankfully!) and who probably wouldn't mind spending say an extra $2,000 to get a manual V-8. For Lincoln to get break even on the 2 million would require sales of 1,000 cars with the option.
Right now that would mean 1% of sales would be needed to satisfy that requirement. One of the questions raised on this is would the 1% of sales come from the 3% that Lincoln planned on for the V-6 manual whose development, certification and tooling costs have already been factored in, or would these buyers be from the other models.
I guess part of the question would be how much would people(non-enthusiast) be willing to pay to get a manual V-8 option and would there be enough volume to pay for it?
Or would it be better to enhance the performance of the V-6 manual significantly, possibly up to the level of the current V-8 and market it as a performance model, while the V-8 models would be marketed as the luxury sports model?
Just some thoughts.
Brian
2. ls1bmw0: Does Dodge make a fortune on Vipers? Guessing the return on their investment, purely as measured by per unit Viper profits, is negligible if not potentially negative, when all costs are factored in. However, the publicity and marketing exposure it generates as well as the lasting psychological impression it leaves in the marketplace and its impact on showroom traffic becomes a hard-to-measure but real world profit/ROI consideration. Kind of like why grocery stores & dept stores have loss leaders. Lose $1 on one item to make $10 on lots of other items. If I eliminate the loss leader I lose $9; I don't save $1. And please do remember that within the past 2 years Ford blew over $6,000,000,000 (billion) as part of a highly controversial intricate stock scheme that was designed purely to benefit the minority Ford Family shareholders. They could own fewer of their precious family class shares (which give them special voting power and which rest of us can't own) but still maintain same or more of the company. (It was this stock scheme that caused me to comment a long time ago that Ford could've and should've used that money for new product development, including I-6 engines in luxury sport platforms.)
And, to be fair to DC, when we talk about the other side of the pond, DC's MB runs circles around Ford Europe. Ford Europe skidding downward for over a decade. Didn't Bob Lutz run Ford Europe in '80s when they were last great?
instrument panel that also is quite prevalent in temps below 40.
Had it back to the dealer 3 times now without any luck.
Personally I don't think the dealers take this kind of problem seriously
and just wait for us to go away... or wait for summer so they can see...all fixed!!
I still love the car but the squeak really grates on my nerve's. My 95 thunderbird was as quiet as a mouse and I hate the fact that my 38K investment for the LS has to yell at me all the time..
Kevin
I know so don't say it... stop whinning over such a trivial problem...
The Jag V6 engine has a great torque curve, and dishes out 240HP @6800. (I'm guessing that the more sophisticated intake technology is responsible for most of this advantage over the LS V6.) With this engine/tranny, the Jag does 0-60 MPH in 6.9, top speed 146MPH (when not limited). Perhaps the engine and associated controls could be offered in the LS with little additional cost new Development... although the need for an M6 (or at the very least, better spacing of ratios than the current M5!) would remain unaddressed.
I personally prefer more higher tech and less "iron" in the quest for better throttle response. I WILL put my money down to purchase an LS with this engine and a decent M6 . Please, L-M: I've got the money, but I'm not going to spend it on the current powertrain, only to be HUMBLED by Maximas at every straightaway!
Some questions-why would the V6 have a notably higher incidence of electrical problems than the V8? As far as I can tell, the two are identical in this regard. They define this category as "power accessories and controls" What's different (electrically) between the two. Maybe Dick Cupka could enlighten us on this one.
They state that the 2000 models were less than 6 months old with an average of 3K miles when their owners responded. Well, since the 2000 LS was launched in about mid-1999, the results have to be skewed by early build models and the gremlins we all know about.
While trying to figure all this out my eyes drifted across to the facing page and landed on the box for the Honda Odyssey mini-van. OK, here's a brand that's certainly known for top reliability. It's record for the 2000 model is quite similar to the LS V6. "Extra weight in the scoring is given to engine, cooling, transmission, driveline." OK, identical marks for both in those categories. LS is slightly worse in "Ignition"-whatever that means. They no longer explain what the categories include. Both have the same bad mark for "Electrical"; same slightly worse mark for "Integrity." However, Honda is worse than LS in "Hardware." I guess we have to assume that the remaining categories are given equal weight. So I guess that to them, a failed A/C compressor, for example, counts the same as a whine in the cassette player. How then, does the Honda earn an "average" rating and the LS V6 "worse than average." Their explanation under "why it looks reliable but gets no check" might work for the extreme example they chose (Corvette vs. Honda CR-V, but it doesn't work here.I know it would tear at their heartstrings to say that any Honda was "worse than average." BTW- the Honda with it's less than stellar record by their own methods, gets a "recommended" rating while the LS V8, with its identical frequency of repair rating does not. This despite them earlier in 2000 calling it the best American sedan they have ever tested. So, it's the best American sedan they have ever driven, has an identiacl repair record to the vaunted Honda, but the Honda is recommended in its class while the LS V8 is not.
I think CR performs a valauble and unique service, but let them adhere to their own mission statement.
I saw a new LS ad on TV tonight. This one actually plays up the sport sedan angle. Voice over states something like "the luxury of the corner office that can handle the corners." Guy is shown shifting the SST-sorry Stanny, et al. I like it. Big improvement, but still a little too low key IMHO.
A new twist on sudden acceleration. In a local news item, 2 mechanics in a gas station lot were working on a Ford Econoline van when it started on its own and "took off across the street." With one guy in hot pursuit it clipped one car and broadsided a Chevy Lumina, flipping it and pinning it against a building with a father and his 5 year old son inside. Luckily, no one was hurt. The 2 mechanics claim the keys were in the ignition in the accessory position and they were pushing the van when it satred on its own and took off. You know there's got to be more to this story.
Giowa-for the record, there has already been a Diesel Lincoln. Some early Mark VII's were offered with a Diesel sourced from a place near and dear to your heart. That's right, it was a BMW I-6 Diesel. I can't rememeber if had a turbo or not. Needless to say, this was not a smashing success.
Wood trim - get it all over the car, like Infiniti I30 or the Acura RL. It does make a difference! Wood or plastic, it a question of class, not taste. It also has to to do with the car's price and position. If it will not raise the price of the car more than $500.00, it is a no brainer. Higher price will require the imitation to keep the price in line.
Two other issues:
Interior:
Please make room for sun glasses (a place for two pairs for two drivers will even be better), A change tray, storage bins in doors for CD's, and umbrella would be appreciated.
Cup Holders: PLEASE make room for two cup holders for driver and passenger that can do the following: 1. store TWO 20 Oz, bottles, jumbo cups as well as cans and regular cups. Also, kindly place them in such a way that one can shift in manual or SST without putting their hands over hot coffee and so on.
Cell Phone integration: Provide a generic inteface for a cell phone hands free kit, so all the consumer will have to do is: Get the proper mount and wire adapter to meet their specific cell car adapter model. Currently, there are already wires ready for the add on mike, and plug ins for audio out from cell car adapter and mute/phone on as well, why not add them as one connector and provide an open wire on the other side, identifying the leads. Yes, I know that may have to give up the programmable pre dials using the radio buttons, but again, this will be a small price to pay. Saab has it now, and it works for them!.
Last but not the least, and this one is a biggie here in the east coast: AWD option. The Audi A6 has been selling nice numbers here, including manuals. The reason - people are looking for AWD. I know that I am asking now for 2000 posts telling me why is is a shame to place it in a sport sedan and so on, but the facts are that Audi is making a living selling them and it is a sport sedan/wagon, and Audi A6 is a sport car from the word go. Also, I read somewhere that MB is going to offer it on the S class (it is already available on the E class) as well, BMW is introducing it on their 3 serias, and so on. Think about it in snow conditions: AWD and manual power. I understand the Jaguar X will have it as well. Right now, can the LS compete with an Audi A6 2.7T? and get this the A6 is available in manual or auto. Just a point for thought. I know that developing an AWD system is not simple or cheap, but more and more car makers are moving for an AWD model that IS NOT an SUV.
Diesel engines. As someone who grew up in Israel and visits there regularly, I notice more and more Europian car makers are selling diesel models. In the past, Peugeot-Citroen was working with Ford on diesel engines and they had a lot of success with it, including here in the US where the Peugeot 505 was sold as a diesel Taxi. I have rented several of diesel models in Israel and I realy enjoyed them. For the LS to be sold in Euroupe a diesel option is a must. Would it do a lot of good to the US market? I don't think so.
Given their righteous aura of impartiality, I find this more irritating than criticism of the LS from Europhile "enthusiast" magazines.
It's been mentioned that we are (mostly) biased in favor of our cars, and should be aware of this when we react to criticism of the LS. As for myself, guilty as charged. (I plead 11,000 trouble-free, joyful miles as my excuse but no doubt there is some luck involved.) Nevertheless, this board and LLSOC remain the absolute best source of information available to owners and potential owners of the Lincoln LS.
Scott
The professionals told me that if there are only a few pits, like 4, the windshield can be repaired, but a full field of pits, even very slight ones that do not snag your fingernail, can not be buffed out or distortion would result. I confirmed this from 2 sources.
Windshield replacement takes less than one hour, uses factory glass (of course), and in my estimation can only be done by a professional. I compared the removed windshield thickness with the replacement and other cars' windshields at the glass shop - I could not visually detect a difference in thickness.
Fortunately there is no pain damage on the hood, roof, side panels, etc. The minor "pitting" on the leading bumper plane is not noticeable, and well below normal wear and tear for a one year old car.
First time in about 30 years on the west Coast that I ran into this kind of sand storm, but I've hear they can do substantial damage. Guess I was both lucky, and unlucky at the same time.
Sawmill - I read your original post about returning from San Jose and going thru a big sand storm. I'm curious as to where did u hit this storm? Couldn't have been *too* close to San Jose (my fair city), could it?
(**** Warning - some not-so-flattering comments in here ****)
I too saw the new CR issue and was very dismayed to see the 2000 LS V6 show up in the 'Used cars to avoid' column. Whatever CRs biases are (and I know they have em in spades) I'm not convinced they are afflicted with 'anti-American-car-bias' disease as are some of the other mags and seemingly many Newspaper car reviewers. Eg: they did call the LS 'the best American sedan ...' and they've gone out of their way to keep up the pressure on Isuzu and Suzuki for their apparently unstable SUVs.
That said, we gotta be real here. 2000 was the first year for the LS and it's had it's share of gremlins as posts here have identified. Body hardware? lots of windows falling down. Electrical: how about heated seat failures, radio and radio control gremlins, shorts in the battery cables and bad grounds? Body integrity? I've read several complaints about squeaks and rattles here. My own experience with my new LS bears this out a bit: I'm going in Monday to have the radio replaced - it only turns on once out of every 5 to 10 tries.
We all know Lincoln has solved some of these issues (eg windows and heated seats) and is no doubt working on others. But having our LSs rated 'much worse than average' in reliability is very bad. Especially for resale value. I sincerely hope that LM can bring this rating up. I'd bet that the 2001s will rate somewhat better. But buyers are *real* sensitive to reliability and if it looks like the LS is becoming a rehash of the Catera vis-a-vis reliability, that'll be a big blow to the LS as competition for the beemers and the Japanese cars.
(**** end of bad news - back to regular programming)
However, if one looks more closely at the CR data, some very strange things begin to show up, eg: The 2000 LS V8 has a ***better*** reliability chart than the 2000 BMW 3-series. Yet, the beemer's reliability verdict is 'better than average' while the LS is only average. Also: the level of 'owner satisfaction' is higher than average for the LS, even though the predicted reliability is much worse than average. Go figure :>) Another point: the LS V6 rates 3rd best in class comparison tests behind the BWM and Lexus ES300. They didn't test the LS V8. Anyone wanna bet where that would've rated? Finally, the LS rates second behind only the Volvo S80 as the safest car in it's class. And this includes not only crash ratings but brakes and handling as well.
My summary on the rating of the LS is that's it's a fantastic car in performance, safety, satisfaction and luxury. Now, all we need to do is make it a bit more reliable.
My red LS 5speed now has a whopping 600 miles on it. And I gotta say, and it's been said before, I like this car more and more each time I drive it. I love the 5speed. While the V6 does need more power (or I gotta be patient til I break it in) the feel I get as I run up thru the gears from a start is just so smooth and supple. The car really is fun. Some of the curves on hiway 17 that used to sort of sneak up on me in my Mark are now so easy to handle at higher speeds it's surprising. Tis a wonderful life, n'est pas?
Finally all the stories about unintended acceleration lead me to recount my story of the opposite. In the mid 70's I was a field engineer for a computer company. Did a lot of driving and decided to get a car as good on gas as I could find. I ended up with a (gulp) Renault 'Le Car' (aka the R5). It was a box on (tiny) wheels but it got mid thirties mileage. It actually was a pretty reliable car, but build quality? ... Once, when the car had about 20K miles on it, I was driving out to a call in the California central valley over hiway 152 out of Gilroy. Known as as a dangerous road then (and now) it's a 2-4 lane hiway that winds up and over a small range of hills. And people fly on the 4 lane sections. Anyway, I'm puttin along, going up a fairly steep hill in the outside lane, trying to keep up speed when - HEY, the car just loses all power (which isn't saying much) So I try pushing the gas pedal harder, which was usually an exercise in futility in this car, but this time even more so as - whoa!! - the pedal **falls off onto the floor** ?!! If it wasn't for a lane-wide median strip down the center of the road, i would've been dead meat. So I'm able to pull into the center of the road, cars flying by at 70 mph on both sides of me. Not very edifying. I'm able to squeeze the door open enuf to kneel on the ground and pick the gas pedal up and what do I find under it, laying on the carpet? - A single 3/4 inch long straight-as-an-arrow cotter pin which was the only thing holding the pedal on, but **had never had it's legs spread so it could do it's job!!** Thanks a lot Frenchy, I swore as I was able to put the pedal back on and spread out the pin and get the heck out of there.
PS: I noticed I forgot to mention this car in my histoire on LLSOC. Must've blocked it out!
Sorry for rambling.
George
Jim
Maybe LLSOC should shoot a letter over to Consumer's Union and ask for an explanation of their apparently contradictory report...
Joe
After the latest long-term review of the LS here on Edmunds repeated for the umpteenth time their complaints about the auto tranny, I sent an email to them. Basically I suggested that they have one of the dealers do the PCM reflash as per the TSB.
I received an email back a couple of days ago asking if they could use my email in some new chat room or talk to the editors or some such new site they're doing. I said sure, but I don't know where the site is or even if it exists yet or I'd point to it here.
Hopefully they'll get the reflash.
heyjewel: I received an email back from Edmunds also after I had sent them a rather turgid email complaining about the inequities in their review of the long-term BMW vs. the long-term LS. They wanted my okay also to include my email in their Letters to the Editor section. Should be interesting to see what their reply will be. I'm sure they will have their typical proper reasons for being biased for the BMW.
Brian
What's the latest news on Leavy Morgan's crew? Is the first race going to be Sebring? How about performance parts for our LSs (air mass sensor, wheels, etc.)? Not that you don't already have enough to do, writing letters to CU, changing over the LLSOC bulletin board, et. al. . . . ;-)
I did a thorough inspection of the engine compartment and vehicle for sand incursion. The LS was pretty dust-tight under the hood. Debris caught on the outer (A/C?) radiator, and suprisingly on the inboard radiator in the two-inch space between the two. You have to remove the black cover panel to see this. The tumbleweed fragments cleaned out easily with gentle prodding from a thin, wooden dowel and an air-hose.
The air filter box was immaculate post air filter - and stopped the dust, sand and twig fragments that were left on the bottom pre-filter. I'll change the air-filter as a precaution. I've got to admit, with all the talk about K&N's on the forum, I feel pretty good that I had the factory-spec motorcraft on the car - even though the air-flow may be restricted, it is a bit scary when you see the abrasive grit it blocked from entering the engine.
The headlight and foglights do not have to be replaced. The plastic handled the sand and debris much better than the glass. I guess the glass is brittle, and fragments break off causing tiny pits. The plastic doesn't fragment, and is hard to scratch, so there was very little damage. The Lincoln logo on the front took some visible hits though - it's clear plastic facing shows one or two pits over the black backgound.
In cleaning the car, I noticed the tray beneath the radiators, behind the lower louvres, collects a lot of debris. Anyone driving around leaves, or sand, should check this area periodically, since simple washing will not get the debris out.
heyjewel - the sandstorn was at Lebec, just before the incline to Gorman on the famous "Grapevine" of HOTROD LINCOLN song fame. San Jose is a wonderful city, second largest in California, and the city government would never allow weather like that around there.:-)
I've subscribed to CR for many years. The years highlight is always the April "car" issue. To say that their review of the LS is contradictory is an understatement. I see no reason the the V-6 should be any different than the V-8 in any category. True, the first year or so had the window and tranny problems, but we are hearing very few complaints about the 2001s. I'm getting tired of the 3 series comparison. I wouldn't even consider such a tiny car unless I was the only occupant. And then it would be a two door M3. But I have always believed that a larger car with a reasonable weight could have excellent performance at a reasonable price and I think the LS is proof of that concept.
I also feel that there is a market for a 540i 6- speed at a reasonable price. If that is too large a step for LM, I say make the LS Manual into a "separate" or special performance car. At least a "SVT" or "SVO" edition. The problem with the current Manual is hp/weight ratio. As a first step, can the Jaguar snob stuff and put in the VVT heads. Probably the most cost-effective performance boost for the factory. Jaguar buyers go for sheet metal. Ask the Jaguar salepeople how many times a potential buyer brings in an LS brochure and compares specs with the Jag. Not!
The next step would be a six-speed for the V-6 which would allow for a deeper (3:31 or 3:58) rear and hopefully an LSD pumpkin. I think this will eventually become reality for CAFE reasons or to remain competitive. Everytime I pick up a magazine, another car is coming out with a six-speed. Not only the IS300,MB240,Audi, but the Focus and an econo-box from Nissan. If these two cheapies can go six-speed, why not the "near-luxury" LS? Stanny1, who is exercising his keyboard after an almost one week sabbatical during which his hard drive crashed and he had to rebuild his digital world (I know,always back-up!)
I concur with Heyjewel's comments (#1370) about the '00 LS having various gremlins. I was plagued with repeated heated seat and airbag warning light problems. Others had window issues. Don't remember posters here saying these problems were more prevalent or not with 6 or 8, but they did happen to too many owners.
The 3.0L and 3.9L engines are different. I think it could be entirely possible that LS6 owners reported more electrical and ignition-related problems than LS8 owners. These were the only 2 areas that were different; the other 12 areas rated are identical for the LS6 & LS8.
As long as Lincoln proactively addresses these issues, we'll likely see an improved result next year.
Do keep in mind that if you don't like their results, subscribe and get a chance to provide input next year. I'd given up on CR about 10 years ago as too political, instead reading it at library each month. Then in January they sent me an offer I couldn't refuse! At the low, low price they offered for one year, I subscribed.
Yes, I did have the rear window fail on my V6, but I wouldn't call the car unreliable or whatever. AND, it seems from this board that the V8 owners have experienced more problems (ie flooding, not starting, extensive cranking, etc.) I don't really recall too many other V6 owners complaining on this board about engine problems, and I think we have quite a few V6 owners represented here on this board.
I think most of the folks that post here once believed that CR was an unbiased and fair critic. I also think that most folks here have learned otherwise. I have learned to trust my own instincts, research, and the opinion of respected sources, whether in print form or otherwise. THIS FORUM (the LS site on Edmunds) has been the best place to learn about this car. It's a shame that CR published findings about our car that differ so much from those who post here. We all know that CR has a significant influence on the masses, and that their findings could hurt our resale values. CRs findings do not however, make me second guess my decision to buy my car. Quite the contrary, their findings now just reinforce my thinking!
Mass air flow sensor has been developed for the V-8. Between the sensor change and a Borla cat-back system it generated an additional 20hp. I will be getting one of the prototype sensors within two weeks to get my impressions of it. The only downside of the new sensor is that with the long intake snout, there is a slight delay in throttle response. They are working on engineering an adapter that will put the sensor closer to the intake manifold, which will take care of the delay issue.
He is also working on getting wheels designed for the LS. I've seen pictures of the protype and they look really nice. I believe he's going to have them in the 18 x 8 and 18 x 9 size with the stock offset. Tire Rack does have wheels available for the LS also in a 18 X 7 size, don't know the offset though.
Borla is also working closely with him to re-do the LS system and get rid of those funky tips that they currently have.
Brian
John
Here's more food for thought: reflecting on my own (LS) experience, think about how much a quality dealer service experience might tend to weight the feedback! Had my fit and finish issues been promptly corrected the first time at my purchase dealer - they probably would have been chalked up to new car prep and dismissed. After going to 3 dealers and the Lincoln No-Assistance center a few times, those minor issues take on a new life.
A final note on Consumer Reports and other Guides That Help You Decide Things. I always like cars that have poor ratings. The movies I enjoy often get 1 star out of 5. Many top-rated restaraunts serve food that really isn't that good. Sometimes you can't believe everything that's published (what a concept!).
CR also said lots of good things about the LS: "fun-to-drive with sportier suspension tuning"; "excellent crash results. Very good handling and brakes"; "standard V-6 is smooth": "quiet muscular V8; "handling is agile and the ride is comfortable". And they rated satisfaction with Lincoln dealers above average.
So for the critics, do you believe the good things they wrote? If so, why if you won't accept the bad?
As an example, go through back issues of CR and look at the changes in the 5 series marks over the last 5 years or so. These improved marks came from visible changes in the car over time, not from angry letters from over zealous owners. I think you guys are assuming the LS can reign supreme in a very competitive segment after only two years of production from a nameplate not associated with the attributes the LS may indeed be evolving.
I don't agree with the idea of a letter to CR on behalf of LLSOC. It would lend them legitimacy they have chosen to forfeit.
Scott
PS Please forgive the "club business" in this forum.
Scott
IMHO, many of the people that monitor and participate on this board are searching for additional information sources to aid in their decision processes because the existing sources are either incomplete or not trusted. In my case, Consumer Reports lost its position as a trusted source in 1989.
You don't need to sign-in to view posts except for the Members-only section. You will need to register if you want to post or to get to the Members-only section. It's not a separate board anymore, just a separate area in the overall board. While everyone first signs up please be patient with me giving access to the members-only area. I have to go into each member profile and grant access so once everyone starts signing up there will be quite a bit of volume initially.
The new board software is pretty cool. You can search across the entire forum, put emoticons in your posts, rate the subject and the poster, ignore the poster, etc. If you are familiar with Ultimate Bulletin Board from other discussion groups, then you'll feel right at home with this one.
Chapter coordinators have their own forums where they can post news and events that they are organizing. The coordinators will be the moderators of their forums. Tom, you're already set up.
If anyone has any suggestions for adding, changing or deleting the forums please email me since I did most of the work at 3am and I ran out of coffee!
Brian
Take a look at some of the other natural competitors to the LS. The Catera soundly panned ("continued reliability problems"), and this after 4 years in the market! Jag S-type took the same hit as the LS6. Audi A6 hit ("reliability has fallen below average"). Volvo S80 hit ("reliability has been disappointing, so we can't recommend it"). New '01 MB C-class too new to get rated; however, in the '94-'99 MYs, only the '96 C-class rated above average. The other 5 years were just average. So you can't say CR is biased in favor of European cars.
CR's ratings for Japanese luxury makes Acura, Infiniti, & Lexus are uniformly above average. I think they earned their ratings the hard way: they build cars well. In a little over 3 years I put over 60,000 hard miles in my '96 Infiniti G20t. I never once had warranty work or a service repair!
I also noticed that the "Profiles/Snapshot" section of the CR Annual Auto Issue is showing that the "Next full report" for the BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS300, MB C-class, and Volvo S60 is May 2001, next month. Will be interesting to see what CR writes then about reliability, and whether they will mention the LS6 or LS8 as competing vehicles to these "sports sedans".
From my pespective, Consumer Reports has almost uniformly backed Japanese auto makes, particularly the premium brands. While I think that the Japanese manufacturers do, on average, produce a higher quality product, the gap has been significantly reduced in recent years by both the American and European makes. IMHO, this is particularly true in the luxury/near luxury models (i.e., the high end products from these manufactures). I do not think that the Europeans have any particular quality advantage over the American makes. I'd stack my Lincoln LS8 up against any competitor in the luxury/near luxury class as far as quality is concerned. While I've had my headlamps replaced, and my transmission reflashed, these have been EXTREMELY minor issues and were ultimately corrected during routing maintenance intervals. Read that as NO SKIN OFF MY NOSE!
As always, NICE JOB LINCOLN, the LS is one fantastic ride!
My rear ducts also blow a breeze as do the ones in my Sable. Remember, the air has a very long way to go. To test for blockage, try this; close all the front registers. If the air increases out of the rear, there probably isn't any type of blockage, if it doesn't, there may be some type of restriction. Hope this helps.