ANT14: Good to see you posting. Have you been at the auto shows? Yes, I have had mixed results with chain store alternators, AC compressors, and so forth. At least alternators are easy to change.
Speaking of auto shows, who else plans to be at LA or Detroit to see (we hope..) the new LS or whatever they call it? I just marked the dates on my calendar.
I very much wanted a new Five Hundred or Montego, and admire them when I see them on the road. I am hopeful that the Lincoln version will correct the things which kept me from buying a Five Hundred / Montego (narrow foot & knee space, too small engine, and lack of features).
Any of the other regulars here going to the LA show? If so, it would be nice to get together somewhere for lunch / dinner. If we didn't live 55 miles from the convention center (1.5 to 2 hours in LA traffic), we could also host a BBQ at our home. I expect that we will have plenty of new Ford products to celebrate.
The VIP event in LA every year recently has been is a charity fundraiser for homeless healthcare. A guy who was very active in the '94 - '96 Impala SS club has been very active with that fundraiser.
I purchased one of the fist LS's (build date 10/99, 98K miles) and was one of its biggest proponents for a long time. I still love the way it drives, but here's a breakdown of issues since about a year and ahalf ago:
1) Wheel bearings (or something down there according to the dealer) producing loud knocks. Failed twice, total repairs: $1,000 2) Ventilation system re-director sticks - dealer wants $850 to repair it, I told them to take a hike (I can make it work by adjusting the settings just right). 3) Loud rattle in the muffler - dealer AND my trusted local mechanic quoted me $875 because the whole exhaust system needs to be replaced. 4) Front driver side door handle beginning to go, lord knows how much they'll want for that one 5) Rear-view mirror auto-dimming doesn't work, dealer wants $100 to replace 6) Stereo button broke years ago, never fixed it 7) Left rear passenger door lock doesn't work with keyfob (you have to manually lock/unlock the door) 8) Steering wheel memory never worked right; gkarg posted a way to fix it years ago, but too complicated for me 9) The plastic covering underneath (below the engine) fell off the other day 10) Terrible paint job (midnight black) - I've been told by several people that the early black models used inferior paint, and it shows. Mine actually looks polkadotted white now.
I'm sure there are more things that don't come to mind right now, but you get the picture. All in all very disappointed lately, can't say I'll ever buy another Lincoln. I'm already seeing piddly things go wrong on my wife's '03 Navigator (faulty window motor, faulty passenger outside mirror doesn't lower in reverse, muffler replaced). Looks like I'll be going back to foreign cars in the future.
I recently had an Alpine DVD player installed in my dash, I removed it today. Now when I put the factory radio back in, it does not work. Anybody know if the factory radio has a security that needs to be corrected by the dealer, or something simpler?
I recently had an Alpine DVD player installed in my dash, I removed it today. Now when I put the factory radio back in, it does not work. Anybody know if the factory radio has a security that needs to be corrected by the dealer, or something simpler?
Sorry to hear of your problems. Beyond the cost, things like that are an enormous annoyance because of the time it takes to deal with them. Either Ford and GM stop stories such as your's, or they go under. It is their choice. I hope they get it right.
As for the exhaust, go to a custom exhaust shop and they will weld up a complete system for a fraction of $875.
Mine has done this since I bought it, so I'm not sure if its a problem or not. I assume yours was not doing this before? If I accelerate at a moderate to brisk pace, its perfectly smooth and sure-shifting. If I accelerate at a slow pace, I get rough shifting.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Koury; Hello. Yes, I remember you being around here for longer than I. I purchased an '01 V6 w/5speed manual in Feb '02. Except for the auto-HVAC system I've been real pleased with my LS. Have 66,000 miles right now. Sorry to hear of your issues. Maybe I'm due for same over next 30,000 miles. Hope not, but anyway I have a few comments but first a question about your HVAC - what is it doing wrong that they want to adjust the levers that move the doors? -Muffler rattle - usually a 'rattle' in the exhaust system IME comes from the catalytic converter rather than the muffler. Many times you can get those replaced under emissions warrantee. Just a thought. Also, don't discount giving Midas a try. Their prices are pretty good and their warrantees good too. - I had a door handle replaced under warrantee. If one was to go now, I'd try a bone yard. But then u do need to match color so it mioght be tough. I don't know how handy you are with a screwdriver but it's probably reasonably easy to replace once u get the door panel off. - Same for the lock that's not working - could be a loose conector inside the door panel - or a new solenoid or actuator from a boneyard could fix. - the plastic cover under the engine - again boneyard. cheap. - black is the toughest color to get right. I see Mercedes all the time with orange peel on black paint.
I do get the picture and sorry about the way you feel. Funny, my wife has an '04 Nav, only 18000 miles. No problems so far. Between us, we bought the same vehicles but you bought the first year and I bought the second. Maybe some truth to the old adage about waiting a year for them to get the bugs worked out?
I have a 2000 LS8 (build date 10/99), if that helps in answering what engine I have. I use the SelectShift alot on the highway (i know that's counterintuitive, but I like selecting the gear). This is a new issue and it's getting worse. It only happens on the highway as I accelerate - it's almost a jumping feeling, like something is slipping. I'll be taking it to the dealer soon becuase I have to replace the panel that fell off underneath. Yikes.
heyjewel - yeah, I was posting fairly frequently when I first bought the car (Jan '00) but have pretty much just been lurking the past year or so. I really, really enjoyed this car the first four years I've had it, and still love the way it drives. If not for all these issues, I'd still be thrilled.
As for the HVAC - when I run the A/C, cold air blows out the driver vent and hot air through the middle vents. The dealer said the director isn't woking properly. I finally figured out that if I keep the A/C on 60 degrees in re-circulate mode, it stays cold all around. I just regulate the airflow with the fan button. I figure that beats a $750 repair.
My local mechanic said the rattle is inside the muffler - he said if I can live with it, don't spend the money to get it fixed. The only concern I have is inspection time - whether or not that will be an issue is anyone's guess. I'll have my dealer look at it.
I'm a stickler about the paint - I clay, polish and wax twice a year with Zaino, but that's no match for New England weather.
I love the Navi - it's the most luxurious car I've ever had, and it's under warranty for another two years. So I don't worry yet about what goes wrong.
I rolled the dice by buying an early model and got lucky up until the past year or so. I knew what I was getting into. Good luck with yours, hope you don't have the same issues.
It's typical for an domestic vehicle to depreciate 50% over 3 yrs. You are not likely to get the price you obtained at Edmunds in real life....$9k to $9.5k tops.
The LS is even higher than that, from what I've seen. Case in point is the one I just bought. 2003 (3 years old) with only 30k miles for $20K ($48k original MSRP).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Stop right there. You cannot use MSRP to calculate depreciation. IIRC they were selling around $8K off MSRP so that's only 50% depreciation over 3 years. Unfortunately that's about par for the course for ALL luxury vehicles, not just Lincolns. The used car market is simply flooded with cars and except for a few rare exceptions everything is down.
I disagree. Depreciation is calculated off MSRP because everyone can get a different deal. Otherwise, 2 people with 2 identical cars would have 2 different depreciation rates. And that's just not how its done. Check Edmunds depreciation lists (under TCO), do you really think they have averaged all purchase prices, including those who buy at full MSRP when a model first comes out and those who bought for $10K under MSRP? No, of course not.
But, yes, I agree, luxury cars do depreciate more, on average. Obviously, Lexi are a far cry from lincolns and caddys, however.
Actually, I just checked and edmunds takes currently available rebates into account when looking at new cars, but they take those off the MSRP, not the discounted price you would obviously get if you walked into a dealership.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Check Edmunds depreciation lists (under TCO), do you really think they have averaged all purchase prices, including those who buy at full MSRP when a model first comes out and those who bought for $10K under MSRP? No, of course not.
Actually, they do. According to this they use TMV which takes into account all rebates and discounts and attempts to reflect the average actual selling price of the vehicle:
Explanation of True Cost to Own Terms
Depreciation This is the amount by which the value of a vehicle declines from its purchase price. The purchase price employed for new cars is the vehicle's True Market Value® price in your state (including typical equipment and destination charge) less any widely available customer cash rebates.
Not stupid, just eager to drive a great car. No regrets here. I paid $37K for my nicely equipped 2000 V8 sport ($1500 over invoice) and I'm about to trade it on a Fusion. I'll probably only get $10K if I'm lucky. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Akirby, is your LS loaded. You know sprt sup, alpine audiophile, advance trac? I am in NW GA ...we should talk.
For all the critics of the LS....go buy something else. It is your God given right to have opinion/choices and make your own. There are some of us who actually understand what a great value this car is. I started researching the LS in Aug '99. I took delivery of a fully loaded V8 in Oct '99. Payed in full (thanks to the great stock market balloon of '99),just over $39,000 for it. It was worth every penny I payed! I test drove every lux-sport sedan in the 30K to 50K range in the six months prior to. I work hard and I play hard. I'll be damn if I am going to pay 5K to 10K more for a few extra bells and whistles or to have some Bought My Wife badge on my car. Hell if KIA made a car that performed and had the Lux needs I wanted I would buy one.
I sold my LS in '01 (thanks internet bubble) primary to allow my wife the comfort of not working while she was pregnant with our first child. Set the money aside as I knew I would get back into an LS soon. 9-11 happened. My wife and I made a decision to give the Red Cross and those victims what we could. Bye-bye $16,000 down payment. I wish I could have given more...it struck to close to home for me. To this day I still feel that buying the LS and giving all I had to the victims was two of the best decisions I have ever made.
I am a planner and and analyst at work. I have to make informed choices based on my research. I bought my car before it was tagged COY. I have read as the so many car rag idiots jump on the same band wagon year after year. It seems the rarely research before they right. Just plagiarize what others have stated. Any way I will get off my soap box.
In summation: do your own research but take into consideration what others say. It is not all bad advice. There are going to be good and bad cars. Take a look at the percentage of lemons per units sold of any given car. You would be suprised at which vehicles have the most unofficial TSB's. A few years ago the [non-permissible content removed] were kicking US and European but in reliability. For those who are happy with their LS...party on. For those who have had nothing but problems... sorry but there are always bad apples but they don't ruin the whole bunch.
P.S. If you want resale value go buy an SUV :shades:
I find that very odd since their TCO for a new LS is MSRP minus the customer cash. Certainly not what people are buying them for.
SO... really, even if we use purchase price, my assertion still stands ... for some people. The guy who bought the car for MSRP because he doesn't do research and just buys what he likes (ie, my father-in-law) suffers 60% depreciation, while someone who works hard for their deal suffers less. Fact of the matter is, the LS still depreciates like used mud. I'm not complaining, heck, that's why I was able to get a great deal on a used one.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
MSRP on the 2006 LS used in the TCO is $42,610. TMV is $37,399 plus tax/tag/fees gets you a purchase price of $40,188. So they ARE using the TMV price and NOT the MSRP. Maybe you forgot to add in the Taxes which adds $2789.
The biggest factor in LS depreciation had nothing to do with purchase price and had everything to do with the huge discounts that were put in place for the later models. The price of a used car will always be relative to the current cost of a similar new model. At one point they were discounting a new LS by almost $10K off MSRP. So the same vehicle that I paid $37K for is now selling new 3 years later for $32K. If you figure that a 3 yr old car is worth 50% of a new one that makes it worth only $16K instead of $18.5K.
Of course there are other factors but that one makes a huge difference in resale value and there's nothing you can do about it.
OTOH it's not just the LS or Lincolns - virtually ALL luxury cars are down, even MB. The market is saturated.
Tax is different in just about every state, so I don't see how they are factoring that in. Same with tags and fees can vary from dealer to dealer in many cases. EDIT: oh, wait, you are right, i missed the line on the TCO that factors it for MY state. HOWEVER, they are still using MSRP minus the customer cash, which, of course, as you and I both know, is nowhere near what a real shopper would pay for the car. So their depreciation calculation is using MSRP minus customer cash.
I totally agree that rebates play a part. Rebates are the result of both overproduction and underdemand. If the LS was more welcomed and desired by the buying community, they wouldn't need rebates and, therefore, resale would, of course, be higher.
Benzes and Bimmers, in my opinion, have pretty high depreciation the first couple of years because they are so darned expensive to begin with.
Like I said, I have no problem with it. Its just how things are. All the better for me because I'd much rather get a lightly used one for so little money. I did the same thing when I bought my '98 Volvo back in 2001. Of course, I found out the downside is that the depreciation doesn't slow down very much. That Volvo is now worth less than an Accord of similar vintage. Oh well. At least I get to drive a nice car for cheap.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But they're NOT using MSRP - they're using their TMV price which in this case is just above invoice. They deduct the rebate off that price and not off MSRP. If they were using MSRP it would be about $2K more than what they're showing. Read the numbers in my previous post.
Doesn't change the fact that depreciation would then vary. Some people are experiencing HORRIBLE depreciation and some are experiencing just BAD depreciation. How's that?
Comparison on resale after 3 years through edmunds: Acura TL: 59% Lexus GS300: 55% BMW 525: 57% Caddy CTS: 52.6% Lincoln LS: 50%
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm not arguing with you - since everyone gets a slightly different deal and prices vary month to month there is no exact answer. All you can do to compare vehicles is estimate the purchase price and residual value. Using MSRP is one way to do it but it's not accurate because some vehicles sell at, near or above MSRP and some way below.
If you can buy the vehicle at below average price then your actual depreciation will be lower (higher residual percentage) than someone who pays more than average. It's just a guideline. Also if I live in an area with a lot of used cars like mine then it will be worth less than the same car in an area where they are in high demand and short supply.
If you know they're using MSRP and you know the BMW sells at or near MSRP and the LS sells much lower than that then you just take that into account when comparing the numbers.
Remember - depreciation is only a factor if you sell the car. And it only tells you percentages - if one car has 60% residual value and another has 50% but the first one cost $20K more to begin with then the 3 yr cost is higher in actual dollars.
Bottom line - it's just a guideline. TMV is better than MSRP but it's still just an average - some are higher and some are lower.
Not only that, but personally, if a vehicle I enjoy driving and simply love to have, I don't really care about depreciation.... The point being, if I love it THAT much, chances are I'll keep it for many years, hence, not care too much about depreciation.
A car isn't a wise investment, it's one that depreciates and sucks money out of your pocket (or expense it as business use like I do). You invest in other things, such as property and chances are it'll appreciate.
Hey there, I was wondering (since you all seem to know your Lincoln products very well) if any of you could tell me the production numbers for the elusive V6 Stick. I am Canadian and I finally found one after more than a year of searching. I have a feeling that this was only a fluke that I did find one. If any one knows what percentage of the V6 sports that were made were manuals, I would like to know.
Buying a car is a losing proposition, as is leasing. The responsible thing to do is ride mass transit, or walk, or ride a bicycle.
OK, most on these boards are irresponsible.
That said, buying a vehicle that continues to evolve is much different than buying one that's cut loose at the first opportunity. While those of us who bought the thing watch its value go down the toilet, we can remember what we hoped for -- new variations each year, with improved features that we'd aspire to "next time."
The LS torpedoed my long-term allegance to the brand within three years. I'd hoped for decades of continuing improvement.
Decades -- months. I guess it's pretty much the same. . .at least in the American car business.
Did anyone change BREAK fluid for 2000 LS V6? It seemed there are two reservoirs for BREAK fluid. I can not access the second reservoir, but the dirty fluid in the second reservoir can mess with the new fluid in the first reservoir. Did I miss something, another opening for BREAK fluid?
By the way, where did you guys get cabin air filter? it seemed hard to get.
You can get the cabin air filter at your local Napa parts store. If they do not have it they can order it and have it in a couple of days. Also can get it at www.fordpartsnetwork.com
This isn't happening to my LS, but it has happened to my 2003 TBird.
Over the last 200 miles, every now and then (very rare), when I come to a full stop (regular drive, not SST), the car seems to start out in 5th and drop suddenly to 1st.
Hi all. Have been wanting an LS since they first came out. I am now in a position to really consider one. I have read almost all the messages on this board over the years and feel that an 03 or later V8 is the car for me. Too many issues on the pre-03 cars. I have had very good luck with Fords and GM cars over the years. Go figure.
I won't go in too deep on my opinion about how Ford has handled this model - just say it is a small issue compared to the bigger picture they face. It does not appear that they have a clue on what to do other than follow GM's lead on labor/benefit cost reductions, etc. Sad because they are in a position to really take a leadership role in many areas of the industry and the so called 'turn around'.
Back to my real questions, I love the sporty spoke wheels that ended, I believe, on the 02 model. Will these bolt right up to 03 and later models?
More current LS wheels make me yawn and think of Grandma-ma's town car or the like. Also, did that guy really give $16k to 9/11 victims? Talk about disposable income. I jest.
Actually the 2002 model was almost bulletproof, but you'll want the improvements in the 2003+. Yes, the super silver wheels will fit - they didn't change the size. They're usually available on Ebay.
I would consider a late 02 but would have to be a super deal. Kinda want to go hog-wild with the AC seats and nav due to wanting to keep this car a long time. I am thinking the AC seats and nav are 03 and later but could be wrong.
I just picked up a 2002 LS V8 in mint condition. I'm thrilled with every feature except my constant awareness of limited lateral movement for the driver's left leg. The placement and extension of the window switch panel really forces you to keep the knee and leg extended straight ahead. I'm just curious if others have been aware of this problem and if it's the same story with the newer models.
Almost as good as the first tank which was 28.3, this tank covered 384 miles using 13.5 gallons of $2.99 premium gas. Which calculates to appx 27.7 mpg.
My driving-for-mileage was not as extreme this time and I upped the max speed from closer to 60 to closer to 65 mph. The tank I'm running now I'm allowing up to 70 mph.
'01 LS V6 manual tranny w/magnaflo exhaust and K&N Air for those who care.
found 03 loaded with nav and AC seats, moonroof, etc. $23,500+ttl. 22k miles. This is in KC area. Any opins on how close to $21.5k even (out the door) I can get? Any thoughts/ideas appreciated. There are not as many 03/04 cars around (with nav and AC seats) that I was thinking there would be.
Well, since I bought mine not too long ago, I'm going to assume prices haven't changed too drastically since then.
Trade-in value on that '03 is in the $18K-$19k range and that '04 listed above is probably closer to $22k.
Is that '03 private party or a dealer? Certified? As far as the OTD price... i can't help you much with that since I don't know your tax rate, DMV fees, ad fees, etc., etc.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
Speaking of auto shows, who else plans to be at LA or Detroit to see (we hope..) the new LS or whatever they call it? I just marked the dates on my calendar.
I very much wanted a new Five Hundred or Montego, and admire them when I see them on the road. I am hopeful that the Lincoln version will correct the things which kept me from buying a Five Hundred / Montego (narrow foot & knee space, too small engine, and lack of features).
1) Wheel bearings (or something down there according to the dealer) producing loud knocks. Failed twice, total repairs: $1,000
2) Ventilation system re-director sticks - dealer wants $850 to repair it, I told them to take a hike (I can make it work by adjusting the settings just right).
3) Loud rattle in the muffler - dealer AND my trusted local mechanic quoted me $875 because the whole exhaust system needs to be replaced.
4) Front driver side door handle beginning to go, lord knows how much they'll want for that one
5) Rear-view mirror auto-dimming doesn't work, dealer wants $100 to replace
6) Stereo button broke years ago, never fixed it
7) Left rear passenger door lock doesn't work with keyfob (you have to manually lock/unlock the door)
8) Steering wheel memory never worked right; gkarg posted a way to fix it years ago, but too complicated for me
9) The plastic covering underneath (below the engine) fell off the other day
10) Terrible paint job (midnight black) - I've been told by several people that the early black models used inferior paint, and it shows. Mine actually looks polkadotted white now.
I'm sure there are more things that don't come to mind right now, but you get the picture. All in all very disappointed lately, can't say I'll ever buy another Lincoln. I'm already seeing piddly things go wrong on my wife's '03 Navigator (faulty window motor, faulty passenger outside mirror doesn't lower in reverse, muffler replaced). Looks like I'll be going back to foreign cars in the future.
I recently had an Alpine DVD player installed in my dash, I removed it today. Now when I put the factory radio back in, it does not work. Anybody know if the factory radio has a security that needs to be corrected by the dealer, or something simpler?
As for the exhaust, go to a custom exhaust shop and they will weld up a complete system for a fraction of $875.
Mine has done this since I bought it, so I'm not sure if its a problem or not. I assume yours was not doing this before? If I accelerate at a moderate to brisk pace, its perfectly smooth and sure-shifting. If I accelerate at a slow pace, I get rough shifting.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hello. Yes, I remember you being around here for longer than I. I purchased an '01 V6 w/5speed manual in Feb '02. Except for the auto-HVAC system I've been real pleased with my LS. Have 66,000 miles right now.
Sorry to hear of your issues. Maybe I'm due for same over next 30,000 miles. Hope not, but anyway I have a few comments but first a question about your HVAC - what is it doing wrong that they want to adjust the levers that move the doors?
-Muffler rattle - usually a 'rattle' in the exhaust system IME comes from the catalytic converter rather than the muffler. Many times you can get those replaced under emissions warrantee. Just a thought. Also, don't discount giving Midas a try. Their prices are pretty good and their warrantees good too.
- I had a door handle replaced under warrantee. If one was to go now, I'd try a bone yard. But then u do need to match color so it mioght be tough. I don't know how handy you are with a screwdriver but it's probably reasonably easy to replace once u get the door panel off.
- Same for the lock that's not working - could be a loose conector inside the door panel - or a new solenoid or actuator from a boneyard could fix.
- the plastic cover under the engine - again boneyard. cheap.
- black is the toughest color to get right. I see Mercedes all the time with orange peel on black paint.
I do get the picture and sorry about the way you feel. Funny, my wife has an '04 Nav, only 18000 miles. No problems so far. Between us, we bought the same vehicles but you bought the first year and I bought the second. Maybe some truth to the old adage about waiting a year for them to get the bugs worked out?
Best of luck to ya.
As for the HVAC - when I run the A/C, cold air blows out the driver vent and hot air through the middle vents. The dealer said the director isn't woking properly. I finally figured out that if I keep the A/C on 60 degrees in re-circulate mode, it stays cold all around. I just regulate the airflow with the fan button. I figure that beats a $750 repair.
My local mechanic said the rattle is inside the muffler - he said if I can live with it, don't spend the money to get it fixed. The only concern I have is inspection time - whether or not that will be an issue is anyone's guess. I'll have my dealer look at it.
I'm a stickler about the paint - I clay, polish and wax twice a year with Zaino, but that's no match for New England weather.
I love the Navi - it's the most luxurious car I've ever had, and it's under warranty for another two years. So I don't worry yet about what goes wrong.
I rolled the dice by buying an early model and got lucky up until the past year or so. I knew what I was getting into. Good luck with yours, hope you don't have the same issues.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Case in point is the one I just bought. 2003 (3 years old) with only 30k miles for $20K ($48k original MSRP).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But, yes, I agree, luxury cars do depreciate more, on average. Obviously, Lexi are a far cry from lincolns and caddys, however.
Actually, I just checked and edmunds takes currently available rebates into account when looking at new cars, but they take those off the MSRP, not the discounted price you would obviously get if you walked into a dealership.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Actually, they do. According to this they use TMV which takes into account all rebates and discounts and attempts to reflect the average actual selling price of the vehicle:
Explanation of True Cost to Own Terms
Depreciation
This is the amount by which the value of a vehicle declines from its purchase price. The purchase price employed for new cars is the vehicle's True Market Value® price in your state (including typical equipment and destination charge) less any widely available customer cash rebates.
In this case, we're talking about sub-standard (ie: much cheaper) oats.
Some of us bought premium oats (or so we thought) in 2000.
Colour us stupid.
For all the critics of the LS....go buy something else. It is your God given right to have opinion/choices and make your own. There are some of us who actually understand what a great value this car is. I started researching the LS in Aug '99. I took delivery of a fully loaded V8 in Oct '99. Payed in full (thanks to the great stock market balloon of '99),just over $39,000 for it. It was worth every penny I payed! I test drove every lux-sport sedan in the 30K to 50K range in the six months prior to. I work hard and I play hard. I'll be damn if I am going to pay 5K to 10K more for a few extra bells and whistles or to have some Bought My Wife badge on my car. Hell if KIA made a car that performed and had the Lux needs I wanted I would buy one.
I sold my LS in '01 (thanks internet bubble) primary to allow my wife the comfort of not working while she was pregnant with our first child. Set the money aside as I knew I would get back into an LS soon. 9-11 happened. My wife and I made a decision to give the Red Cross and those victims what we could. Bye-bye $16,000 down payment. I wish I could have given more...it struck to close to home for me. To this day I still feel that buying the LS and giving all I had to the victims was two of the best decisions I have ever made.
I am a planner and and analyst at work. I have to make informed choices based on my research. I bought my car before it was tagged COY. I have read as the so many car rag idiots jump on the same band wagon year after year. It seems the rarely research before they right. Just plagiarize what others have stated. Any way I will get off my soap box.
In summation: do your own research but take into consideration what others say. It is not all bad advice. There are going to be good and bad cars. Take a look at the percentage of lemons per units sold of any given car. You would be suprised at which vehicles have the most unofficial TSB's. A few years ago the [non-permissible content removed] were kicking US and European but in reliability. For those who are happy with their LS...party on. For those who have had nothing but problems... sorry but there are always bad apples but they don't ruin the whole bunch.
P.S.
If you want resale value go buy an SUV :shades:
SO... really, even if we use purchase price, my assertion still stands ... for some people. The guy who bought the car for MSRP because he doesn't do research and just buys what he likes (ie, my father-in-law) suffers 60% depreciation, while someone who works hard for their deal suffers less. Fact of the matter is, the LS still depreciates like used mud. I'm not complaining, heck, that's why I was able to get a great deal on a used one.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Of course there are other factors but that one makes a huge difference in resale value and there's nothing you can do about it.
OTOH it's not just the LS or Lincolns - virtually ALL luxury cars are down, even MB. The market is saturated.
I totally agree that rebates play a part. Rebates are the result of both overproduction and underdemand. If the LS was more welcomed and desired by the buying community, they wouldn't need rebates and, therefore, resale would, of course, be higher.
Benzes and Bimmers, in my opinion, have pretty high depreciation the first couple of years because they are so darned expensive to begin with.
Like I said, I have no problem with it. Its just how things are. All the better for me because I'd much rather get a lightly used one for so little money. I did the same thing when I bought my '98 Volvo back in 2001. Of course, I found out the downside is that the depreciation doesn't slow down very much. That Volvo is now worth less than an Accord of similar vintage. Oh well. At least I get to drive a nice car for cheap.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Doesn't change the fact that depreciation would then vary. Some people are experiencing HORRIBLE depreciation and some are experiencing just BAD depreciation. How's that?
Comparison on resale after 3 years through edmunds:
Acura TL: 59%
Lexus GS300: 55%
BMW 525: 57%
Caddy CTS: 52.6%
Lincoln LS: 50%
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If you can buy the vehicle at below average price then your actual depreciation will be lower (higher residual percentage) than someone who pays more than average. It's just a guideline. Also if I live in an area with a lot of used cars like mine then it will be worth less than the same car in an area where they are in high demand and short supply.
If you know they're using MSRP and you know the BMW sells at or near MSRP and the LS sells much lower than that then you just take that into account when comparing the numbers.
Remember - depreciation is only a factor if you sell the car. And it only tells you percentages - if one car has 60% residual value and another has 50% but the first one cost $20K more to begin with then the 3 yr cost is higher in actual dollars.
Bottom line - it's just a guideline. TMV is better than MSRP but it's still just an average - some are higher and some are lower.
A car isn't a wise investment, it's one that depreciates and sucks money out of your pocket (or expense it as business use like I do). You invest in other things, such as property and chances are it'll appreciate.
Thanks,
Ben P-
Buying a car is a losing proposition, as is leasing. The responsible thing to do is ride mass transit, or walk, or ride a bicycle.
OK, most on these boards are irresponsible.
That said, buying a vehicle that continues to evolve is much different than buying one that's cut loose at the first opportunity. While those of us who bought the thing watch its value go down the toilet, we can remember what we hoped for -- new variations each year, with improved features that we'd aspire to "next time."
The LS torpedoed my long-term allegance to the brand within three years. I'd hoped for decades of continuing improvement.
Decades -- months. I guess it's pretty much the same. . .at least in the American car business.
Think of it as a collector's item.
When I'm ready to sell mine in the next year or three, I'm going to wish for a buyer like yourself.
I'm not going to count on finding one.
Did anyone change BREAK fluid for 2000 LS V6? It seemed there are two reservoirs for BREAK fluid. I can not access the second reservoir, but the dirty fluid in the second reservoir can mess with the new fluid in the first reservoir. Did I miss something, another opening for BREAK fluid?
By the way, where did you guys get cabin air filter? it seemed hard to get.
Over the last 200 miles, every now and then (very rare), when I come to a full stop (regular drive, not SST), the car seems to start out in 5th and drop suddenly to 1st.
Car has less than 10,000 miles.
Anyone else experience this?
I won't go in too deep on my opinion about how Ford has handled this model - just say it is a small issue compared to the bigger picture they face. It does not appear that they have a clue on what to do other than follow GM's lead on labor/benefit cost reductions, etc. Sad because they are in a position to really take a leadership role in many areas of the industry and the so called 'turn around'.
Back to my real questions, I love the sporty spoke wheels that ended, I believe, on the 02 model. Will these bolt right up to 03 and later models?
More current LS wheels make me yawn and think of Grandma-ma's town car or the like. Also, did that guy really give $16k to 9/11 victims? Talk about disposable income. I jest.
Thanks in advance for your input here.
I would consider a late 02 but would have to be a super deal. Kinda want to go hog-wild with the AC seats and nav due to wanting to keep this car a long time. I am thinking the AC seats and nav are 03 and later but could be wrong.
Cap
My driving-for-mileage was not as extreme this time and I upped the max speed from closer to 60 to closer to 65 mph. The tank I'm running now I'm allowing up to 70 mph.
'01 LS V6 manual tranny w/magnaflo exhaust and K&N Air for those who care.
Remember YMMV.
2004 LS V8 ultimate, black, 22k, every option including navigation system, moon roof, heated cooled seats, chrome wheels, like new. $24,500/offer.
Seems you might do better. I would be very interested myself except I will not buy a black car.
Trade-in value on that '03 is in the $18K-$19k range and that '04 listed above is probably closer to $22k.
Is that '03 private party or a dealer? Certified? As far as the OTD price... i can't help you much with that since I don't know your tax rate, DMV fees, ad fees, etc., etc.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S