Not sure where it will be made. At one time it was Atlanta but I think they've changed those plans. Wixom might still be in the running as they revamp the plans.
The LS will be discontinued sometime between now and September.
Not sure about the concepts and whether they're the D3 cars or not - but there will be 3 of them. We should know in a few more days.
No need to hope for RWD. It's AWD based on a transverse FWD powertrain. Period. RWD would require a totally new platform (which I expect to be developed but only after Lincoln gets more products and better profits).
its a transverse setup? we know that already? So then what engine are we talking about here? I'm really not all that familiar with most of Ford's offerings. Do they currently have a transverse V8 in their lineup somewhere?
Why do you say it would need a whole new platform? Car companies are constantly making big changes to platforms to accomodate different vehicles, so I don't see why it would be so tough to make an AWD into a RWD.
I'm not against FWD. I own one, and have owned many others in the past. BUT, its not what I'm looking for in a V8 luxo sedan. Same goes for AWD.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The D3 platform is based on the Volvo platform that was used for the 500/Montego/Freestyle and it is designed for transverse engines and FWD based AWD. Volvo is already using a Yamaha 4.4L V8 in the XC90 so speculation is that Lincoln would get a version of the same engine unless they can get the 4.6L Modular V8 to fit.
Did you ever wonder why there was so much more room in the cabin of a FWD car? Because there's no tunnel for the transmission and drive shaft and the engine and tranny are both forward of the firewall and don't intrude in the cabin at all.
You can't take a FWD transverse engine platform and convert it to RWD without basically starting over from scratch.
I understand the basic principles of where the engine and tranny are and how that affects the passenger compartment.
i just can't comprehend how one manufacturer can make a FWD compact car platform into an AWD SUV towing-capable platform, but are unable to make a FWD platform into a RWD one. Doesn't seem like a big jump to me to put a tunnel in, but, hey, i'm not an engineer.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's not so much that they can't - it's just not practical.
Using a longitudinal engine and conventional RWD tranny shifts more weight to the rear and allows for a better F/R weight distribution. Transverse engines put more weight over the front axle.
Using a transverse engine to power the rear wheels requires a transfer case to power the rear drive shaft at 90 degrees to the crank. This adds extra cost, weight and complexity.
What we will have here is an excellent state of the art FWD/transverse engine platform that will be the basis for a number of models. There are certainly logical reasons, both economic and practical, for doing this.
Making that FWD/transverse engine setup into AWD also adds extra cost, weight, friction, and complexity. I would like to hear some thoughts on the benefits of AWD. Eliminate torque-steer? Better at-the-limit handling?
It seems to me that FWD has come a long way in the past 20 years. Torque steer isn't as objectionable today on modern mid-performance cars as it was on the underpowered X bodies that GM introduced many years ago. I also wonder how many potential buyers of the D3 will routinely explore the at-the-limit handling potential.
Perhaps the D3 will appeal to those who have been driving 4WD/AWD SUVs and want to get back into a stylish sedan. I am expecting the D3 to be on the short list to replace my LS. I just need to find a way to justify spending extra money to haul around more weight!
Yes, AWD helps distribute torque and reduce torque steer while increasing traction. If it's smart, like the Acura SH-AWD system, it can also improve handling.
I believe that Lincoln looked at all available platforms in the company (not having the option of building a new one from scratch) and the one that was the most feasible was the Volvo platform which already has an AWD system available. AWD gives Lincoln a feature that most competitors don't have. Whether that is enough to sway new buyers remains to be seen.
this is a direct competitor to the Acura RL mentioned above? Which is comparable to the AWD infinity M-class and AWD 5-series, just to name a couple. So, unless I'm overestimating the size and price of this thing, I don't see an exclusive feature here. They are just coming to the game late.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The difference is in the price. The RL, BMW, Infiniti and most other AWD competitors are in the $45K-$60K price range. The new Lincoln should be competing in the under $40K range.
The debate rages on – and often seems to rise to the level of Manual trans. vs. Automatic trans. on the various Corvette boards.
I currently drive a (relatively) high TQ & high HP FWD sedan.
My previous 3 sedans were 2 LSs (each a V8 Sport) and an AWD German 8 cylinder sedan, each with a 5 speed manumatic trans. and 250 – 300 HP \ TQ.
My current ride (Pontiac Grand Prix GXP – V8 FWD 303 \ 323 HP \ TQ & curb weight approx. 3600, with [ only ] a 4 speed manumatic trans., no overhead cams, etc.) is actually more fun to drive than any of these prior 3. For me.
Others will think I am Koo-Koo for making that statement. And that’s fine.
So I have substantial (15K + miles) recent ‘real word’ driving experience with the 3 primary drive types available for what I’d term a ‘sporting sedan’.
Clearly, there are aspects where the GXP is no competitor for an LS of any description. But it is (way) quicker than any stock LS V8, it sounds wonderful, it handles exceptionally well and rides very nearly as well as my 2003 LS Sport. (Given the size, profile and performance characteristics of the OEM Bridgestones, the ride quality was actually one of the biggest surprises in my 3 test drives!)
Now, clearly, my GXP lacks a couple of specific features compared to the LSs, like cooled seats, but the FWD characteristics (torque steer, “plow”) are so well managed in any reasonable public road driving that I see no real or significant compromise compared to a RWD sedan. The LS has better F\R balance, but the GXP feels well balanced right up to pretty high cornering speeds – well short of absolute limits, but (again) as close as I am willing to drive on public roads.
Again, I am not suggesting that the GXP is a competitor for the LS.
I am only suggesting that aggressive & innovative chassis tuning (Bilstein dampers) and current tire technology have resulted here in driving dynamics that are as rewarding to me as the RWD and AWD alternatives that I also test drove. And I drove most every sedan with an MSRP between $30 and $55K.
And I find the acceleration and handling to be most entertaining every time I drive it.
And the GXP offered me a bargain priced \ high “bang for the buck” alternative, when I decided to change.
If it really will be that cheap (that's cheaper than the LS - a stripper LS for a hair under $40k doesn't count since its not competing with anything without the luxo options that we expect on a car in this class), then I may be impressed. We'll see. Just remember, the RL is $50k, for example, but it comes with everything. So if you gotta add options to the lincoln to make it comparable and it comes out $50k, then there is no price advantage, IMO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I like the GXP, too. It is exactly what I was thinking of when I said earlier that FWD has come a long way.
If the GXP had been available with AWD for another $1500 and it's added weight reduced your mileage and dulled the acceleration slightly, would you have ordered it to gain the last ounce of handling capability?
I am not going to cry over what might have been but my hope was that AWD would be optional in the D3 and not standard equipment.
And the Acura's biggest fault, is mainly it's 6 cylinder engine. At 50K, consumers expect a V8 at that pricepoint. The closest to compete with the new D3 sedans could be the Chrysler 300C AWD and that's not marketed as a luxury brand. Majority of other manufacturer's only offer the AWD, with their V6 engines. And if they do offer it in their V8's, it's many thousands more.
In house, maybe the next Volvo S80 might come close in equal offering, at almost the same pricepoint. Although it's 2 totally different demographics so it's more like covering all bases.
I can't speak for other consumers, but, personally, I don't care how many cylinders it has, as long as it performs up to snuff.
Many 6-cylinder cars can run circles around our V8 LSs, I'm sorry to say, while getting better gas mileage. heck, in the case of the Volvo in my stable, it does the job with just 5 cylinders! AND, I wouldn't be the least big surprised if, given the outcries similar to yours, Acura has a V8 in its options list (if not standard) by the time this new Lincoln finally arrives.
And I do beg to differ on the chrysler comment. I really do think Chrysler believes it is luxury. At least, that's what they want the consumers to think when comparing to the Charger. And, let's not forget, the 300C AWD starts at under $35k. The Lincoln will be higher than that, I'm sure, so not exactly a direct competitor, either.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Ok I'm not sure about YOUR LS (mine is an '05- on my 3rd), but last time I tested it scientifically with the proper equipment readily available to me, I've clocked 6.1 to 6.4 Seconds, and most importantly, drama free. Which I can't say about SOME V6's which require a scream to 6500RPM, to generate it's full potential.
Remember Ford's V8 (specially the Tritons) kick anywhere from 85-90% of their torque by 1500RPM. Certainly, there's no replacement for displacement. Yes, there's are V6's that clock in under 6 Seconds for that matter (like the Nissan VQ engine family) but the vehicles they are in, are hundreds of pounds lighter as well. Also, the transmission gearing on the LS is a bit...lax. A reprogramming (Dont do it, because it'll void your warranty) removes a few ticks as well.
Although the fuel economy of an LS, is rediculous. The best I've been able to do was 15.7 and that deal with a complete highway trip. Around town, 12-13, but then again I've been known to make a Civic dip down into the 18-20MPG range as well.
Also, if we go back to the first LS, it's 3.9L V8 made a competitive (at that time) 250HP. Lexus LS400 (of that time) was posting equal power for it's displacement. It's the addition of VCT (on both Lexus and Lincolns revised engines) that allowed them to gain power (while Lexus increased it's displacement).
Yes a Nissan VQ 3.5L can make up to 298HP in one variation of it, now...in 2005/2006 because the technology is there and has been implemented. The Lincoln 3.9L is based on tech from 2-3 years ago, where THEN it made a difference, Now it's outdated in comparison.
Hence, the next generation of V8's will naturally incorporate various other features, made competitive with equal displacements engines of it's time.
And now with such goodies as Direct Injection technology, it's more fine-tuning that can be done with certain engines. But thats a whole other topic.
I think the AWD/RWD factor is the critisizm that most are concerned with, rather than the engine. I think probably because it's a Lincoln, and people are expecting a V8 because it's the Lincolnized thing to do. I mean, it would be totally un-American to not offer a V8 on an American Flagship vehicle...
"The new Lincoln should be competing in the under $40K range"
Hmmm .. I don't have any inside information but with the LS starting at $39285 and the Volvo S80 AWD $100 more with a 5cyl engine, I tend to doubt this D3 vehicle with AWD and a V8 would be somewhere over $40K to start? The bigger one closer to $50K, Town car territory. Just guessing. The Lexus GS and Infiniti M are $45K to start and I think they are the real target of this car.
But the DEW98 platform was terribly expensive - I think the D3 platform will be much cheaper. Plus Ford/Lincoln has already said they weren't going to compete with Cadillac in the over $40K price range. I'm thinking it will range from $35K - $45K. I think they have to keep it in that range, at least to begin with. They can always raise it later but it you overprice it to start with you'll never recover.
Yes, I would also think the D3 will be a less expensive starting point than the DEW98. Doesn't the D3 stem from the current 500/Montego? If they are in the $25K - $30K range, another $10K would go a long way in terms of V8, luxury upgrades, etc.
Ant makes a great point about the V8 vs. a similar output V6 issue. One of the things I love about the LS V8 and other high-quality V8s is the rock-steady idle quality, the total lack of vibration under load, and the ability to do its job without drama. (It also sounds beautiful at 6000 rpm.) Quality of acceleration is just as important as quantity in a $40K luxury-type vehicle. I have yet to drive a high-output or turbocharged 6 that is as satisfying to me.
I totally agree with you on many points. And you certainly have no argument from me that they SHOULD be able to get MUCH more power out of a new-tech V8 these days (along with better mileage, IMO). Whether they will actually do it or not remains to be seen.
I was just refuting the fact that folks will see the V8 as being an advantage over the competitors V6s ... UNLESS Lincoln can do as stated above and actually make their V8 better than the competitors V6s.
Basically, with gas prices the way they are, I don't think you are going to sway many folks with 1% better acceleration in exchange for 20% worse fuel economy, for example.
I'm certainly one of those folks who would look at, let's say, an S60R against this car. The S60R fully loaded is under $40k and gets to 60 in under 6 secs. Plus the 6-speed stick, AWD, and adjustable suspension. SO, if lincoln DOES somehow come out in that pricerange for a nicely loaded one AND has comparable mileage AND has the responsive V8 to boot, then they might have something to crow about. I'll be shocked if all that happens, but I really hope they could pull that off.
And, to the last poster, I also totally agree with you that there is nothing quite like a naturally aspirated V8 for smoothness and satisfaction ... i certainly enjoy it more than my Volvo, although the volvo is very close in acceleration numbers, it just doesn't FEEL the same, nor is it as smooth ... but I can overlook that "feeling" if, in order to get it, I have to sacrifice in so many other departments.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Just tossing a few things out here: - Lincoln says they won't be competing with Caddy over $40K ... Well, they're competing with somebody in that market with the LS stripper at $39300, the Town Car in the mid $40s, the Mark LT is around $40K, and the Navigator is Minimum $50K. Besides, I don't think it prudent to listen to what Lincoln says about what Lincoln will do, cause I don't really think they have a clue. They are in totally reactive mode. On a similar vein, I recall back in '99 or so after the huge success of the Navigator, reading an interview with whatever nitwit was in charge of Cadillac then and he said basically "Cadillac is a luxury car brand. It'll be a cold day in hell before Caddy builds an SUV or a truck." Wonder where he is now? Bet it's cold. :>) If Lincoln does price the car I saw at $35K with AWD and a V8, it'll be the steal of the century. Lok at the Fusion/Milan vs the Zephyr. You can get a nice F/M for about, what, $25K say? A similar Zephyr will be $33K. That's 25% more. So if a Montego is $30K, the Lincoln is $40K. And these Lincolns have far more cachet than the 500/Montego boredom twins. Ford will get as many $$$s for them as they can. I cross-shopped an S60 T5 against my LS V6 getrag in 2001. I bought the LS. The Volvo was nice and it was definitely quicker with the turbo, but the LS was a better riding car, felt solid, had no torque steer (the Volvo had it's share), was bigger in every respect and figured to be more reliable. (If only because no turbo). I'm at almost 70K miles now and the car still runs like new and I've spent $0.00 on it other than oil and tires (and the Magnaflow and K&N I put in). I will not get real excited about the new Lincolns if they use a V8 made by a company basically famous for motorcycles and pianos. I want an AMERICAN V8. OK, back to regular programming until I can think of more nonsense.
I don't know anything about the pricing on Lincoln trucks but no one in their right mind is paying in the $40s for an LS or Town Car. They are heavily discounted. Maybe we will see a bit more realistic MSRPs on the D3. A TC is likely profitable at $35K. The LS has an expensive platform and no other high-volume model uses it. There will be a lot more volume in the D3 platform. Your point of Boredom twin pricing plus 25% makes some sense.
I cross-shopped a C70 coupe (247 HP turbo) before I bought my LS. Nice car but it should have been named "Torquesteer." No way could you accelerate at WOT in a straight line.
LS starts at $39,300. And here's a list of options so u can imagine where it tops out: Various optional upgrades include a power moonroof, HID headlights, heated and cooled front seats, walnut burl wood trim, power-adjustable pedals and a DVD-based navigation system combined with a THX-certified six-CD audio system
Town Car: $42,055-$50,525 (Edmunds)
Now, yeah, they are discounted but when you start at $50K (loaded LS or TC) you ain't gettin out the door for $35K.
Yeah, the Volvo "Torquesteer" I like that:>) Just think, that's what they're basing the new Lincolns on. :>( IF I could afford one, it would absolutely HAVE to be AWD.
A new 2006 LS fully loaded is going for no more than $41K (keep it simple pricing minus $3K rebate). Even less if there's any dealer cash. Nicely loaded it's in the upper $30s. $10K discounts on TCs are also normal.
One reason Lincoln never went upmarket was the presence of Jaguar and a corporate mandate not to compete. Now that Jag is moving back to more exclusivity and more expensive products then that opens up the range a bit more.
I still think base price has to be around $35K. Fully loaded may get up to $45K.
So, when the dust all settles for the 2008 model year, the LS will be a fond memory and it sounds like we will have the Zephyr with the 3.5 in the 30K - 35K range, one of the D3s possibly in the 35K - low 40K range. Are the rumors still solid that there will be two versions of the D3? (with real names) If so, perhaps the larger/more upscale of the two will finally put the Panther based TC out of its misery?
That would seem like a good line up to me - especially if one of the D3 variants is more expressive and sporty while the other one aims at the full-boat American luxury buyer.
Well, since I own both, I can tell you that the torque steer is not a big problem in my volvo. Yes, it presents itself under certain circumstances (for instance, let's say punching the throttle mid 80-degree turn at 30 mph and the tranny downshifts and turbo kicks in), but a minor correction gets it right back in line. No different to me than doing the same thing in the Lincoln and having the rear kick out (with stability turned off, since that's the only way to get full performance out of it). So, whereas most folks seem to be strong supporters on one side of the fence or the other, I'm confident in stating that its all in the engineering, execution, and driver and not just as simple as RWD vs FWD.
Having said that, however, under full track conditions, I feel my lincoln would be more predictable, controllable, and fun with its V8/RWD setup (keeping in mind that my volvo is 8 years old and not as tight and surefooted as it used to be). Better than both, however, was my RWD V6 350Z ... but that's another story for a different class of vehicle.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My comments about torque steer in the C70 that I drove were not intended to insult Volvo, you, or anyone. At the time I drove one, (1999) my daily driver was a RWD V8 T-bird that had very smooth linear power delivery. The turbo Volvo came on like a ton of bricks by comparison. I am certain that the torque steer was probably a bit less violent than I remember and there have been engineering advances since then.
One of my favorite rentals is an S60 or S80 (when I can get one.) I have driven other powerful FWD cars (Northstar Caddies, Supercharged GM products) and didn't find the torque steer to be much of an issue.
Torque steer can almost be eliminated with careful engineering if the counter balanacing dampers are finely tuned. Those cars where it's signifaicant, probably use one, whereas those where it's hardly detectable, might use 2+. But again, all depends on how well the engineers tune it. There is an industry notion that some manufacturer's allow for some of it, so customer can perceive their vehicle as being tremendously powerful where it trips over itself.
Yes, the larger D3 is pretty much confirmed but it won't necessarily displace the TC. They can keep the TC even if it's just for fleet sales.
Don't forget the Navigator (with an XL version) and the new MKX. The Mark LT should get a makeover with more distinction from the F150 now that 1st year sales hit their target of 10K units.
I still think they should sell a Lincoln version of the Volvo hardtop convertible.
Oh yeah, I read that Lincoln has decided to go with alphanumeric names 'in the future'. Thus the next Aviator has been renamed the "MKX". I can hardly wait to hear the rest of the names. Maybe the D3 will be the "MKD3"? How about the "MKNAV" or the "MKTC"? Or maybe they'll do "MKXI" "MKXII"?
Of course, they're dropping the one car that already meets this spec: the "LS". And they just released another car that doesn't: the "Zephyr" and a truck that sorta does and sorta doesn't: the "Mark LT".
Now I ask you, why do some people have the impression that Lincoln and it's marketing department are: "Totally Clueless" I wonder?
he's referring to the new C70 that will be out very soon.
And, akirby, you may get your wish. I'm sure they want to at least wait and see if its a success. If Volvo starts getting too many sales with it, I'm sure they'll want to canibalize some of those for Lincoln.
I just wonder what they could do to make it a Lincoln. I'm not sure they can fit much more than a small V6 under the hood, if even that. And then you'd still need to keep it a transverse design with AWD (if we extrapolate from our previous discussion regarding a transverse FWD platform needing to remain as such).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm sure the 3.5L V6 would fit. I'd recommend FWD with AWD as an option. Or maybe FWD for a Mercury version and AWD for a Lincoln version. Modified Zephyr interior. Could be called the MKC for Convertible.
Glad they ended the run. Bland car, mediocre performance and subpar reliability. Let's hope they get it right with the Zephyr. Looks quite promising. Trying to convince the wife to take one for a test drive.
The Lincoln LS was rated 2nd (behind the T-bird, same platform and drivetrain) in dependability by JDPower's survey for 2005 for entry luxury vehicles.
Medicore performance? The vehicle has been heralded for it's european-like handling. It's extremely sophisticated platform is being relegated for Jaguar use because of how expensive it is to manufacturer.
If you find the LS to have mediocre performance, and is bland, I can already tell you the Zephyr is not for you because it'll certainly dissapoint in that aspect since it really doesn't do anything better than the LS other than fuel economy and cargo room.
I guess that's why they decided to end its life with all those great accolades
I looked at JD Power and it wasn't so great. Also looked at CR and they report a high incidence of problems. I can only think that this is why they ended the run and want a fresh name "Zephyr" even though it has been used before. So.. No V8 either?
I have cited on this forum, and numerous others, the glaring irregularities that CR reports on, which is why the media now is questioning their research. JDPower takes a larger sample rate, in a non-biased emphansize.
No, the Zephyr cannot fit a V8 engine, it's based on the Ford Fusion using the CD3 platform (Mazda6 developed). The largest engine that can fit is the new 3.5L Duratec35 V6 (which is actually the same size as the outgoing 3.0L Curatec30) which debuts in a few months, along with AWD and a 6speed automatic co-developed with GM.
The Zephyr wasn't designed to replace the LS. Only in essense, it replaces the notion of being an entry luxury vehicle which was the LS's prior mission. Which is why the LS was pushed upmarket 2 years ago, to make room for the Zephyr (price wise, and segment wise). And why this year it's only offered in V8.
The decision from Ford to discontinue the vehicle mainly lies upon the expensive platform for the pricepoint it has. The vehicle isn't profittable when selling under $40K, nor the T-bird for that matter. BUT it does work for Jaguar which has been able to take the platform and use it on the new XJ, XK.
Also, many consumers can't accept that a Jaguar shared mechanicals/platforms with a "Lincoln", asin the S-Type so that was another nail in it's coffin. And factory allocation... Not worth having a factory build such a small number of these DEW98 platformed vehicles here in the U.S. Also, the engine line isn't profittable either, making just one engine to be used in one specific platform.
And to move onto engines, it wasn't profittable to make the other engine Duratec30 on the LS V6, which was specifically altered for LS use in comparison to the other Duratec30's, hence why the V6 model was dropped for 2006.
One of the new Lincoln sedans (which will debut on one of the autoshows soon) takes over the sporty role of the LS.
I guess CR is a joke when the results do not show in your favor. In actuality they have a much wider sampling than JD. I guess you know that JD is paid by the manufacturers and CR is paid by their subscribers. I would not trust the bias of JD. Ford wants to put the LS to bed because it is just dull and not selling well. I did look up the JD information on the LS. About 2 out of 5 stars is not stellar.
I had one in Florida for a week from a rental company about six months ago. It was hard to identify in the parking lot probably because it is so bland. It rode nicely, but it was just plain boring.
CR is in fact a joke. They sample only subscribers. Ever taken one of their car surveys? The one I took was very misleading. I don't care what car you drive, the shocks will wear out and that is to be expected. Not by CR.
So your entire judgement of the LS is from a base model rental V6? I wouldn't be too impressed (except with the handling) either. I have had 3 LSes. I still have my original 2000 V6 model approaching 120K miles! Oh yea, except for a couple of warranty issues, my only out of pocket expenses are the usual wear and tear items. We just traded the wife's 2001 V6 for a 2006. So far the 2006 is light years ahead of my 2000. As for price, mine stickered at $48K and change. We paid ~$40K +TT with X-plan for it.
I guess you know that JD is paid by the manufacturers and CR is paid by their subscribers. I would not trust the bias of JD.
Not entirely true, but also a somewhat meaningless statement.
JD Power conducts surveys for all the North American auto companies and then makes the results public.
In other words, Lincoln was not the only one paying for the survery of entry luxury in which the LS placed 2nd. Lexus, Cadillac, Infinity, MB, BMW, Volvo, etc. all paid.
If JD Power were biased for one manufacturer over the rest, then the rest would all stop using JD Power.
I was lucky enough to rent a pretty much loaded LS from Hertz over the holidays. This was a great, competent car. Very quiet, agile handling for its size, wonderful stereo, eminently comfortable for me and my passengers.
Other than the somewhat small side mirrors, I had no complaints about this car at all.
The V8 in a lot of stop and go driving returned around 18 mpgs for me even. And for someone who normally drives V6s and 4s, the V8 was really an eye opener.
I enjoyed this car a lot. It will be missed with Ford going for the AWD. Though I can see why Ford feels it has to leverage its Volvo r/d with Lincoln.
If I could find one for 8k off as you and your spouse did, I would give it some serious thought.
My local dealer (Witt in San Diego) is offering $10K off MSRP on all 33 of their LSes. Great, as long as you want black, silver or white. I don't know if I can post their web site, so just go to www.lincoln.com and use San Diego as the search.
Lets leave donzi81 alone. He is obviously just trying to get a rise out of someone. That, or he really doesn't know that there are synonyms for the word "bland".
Everyone has an opinion, biased or not, wether we want to hear it or not. Every car mag and almost all "consumer reports" are a business. No matter how much they try to remain unbiased they are still going to be influenced in a way that can taint the truth. So please don't believe everything you read.
Lastly, Dozi, there is enough negativity in the world. It is just not cool to pick a fight for no good reason Steve. When you have driven an LS for half a decade, as alot of the people in this forum have, then you can make an accurate assessment of the LS. If you start today then you could obtain that status in 4 years, 11 months and 3 weeks?
Now a question for the A-team (ANT14 & akirby)
Will we see the D3 @ the Detroit Autoshow? Surely we will right?
P.S. Sorry for the rant above but something had to be said.
Just telling it like it is and not trying to be argumentative. I am only repeating what I have read. If you notice, I said absolutely nothing bad about my experience with the rental. Everyone is entitled to have passion for their cars, especially if they own the model I am commenting about. Don't forget, my source for the information was from CU and JD Power. JD Power only gave it two stars overall.
My goodness, how can you not say the styling is bland?? If the current style was any success, it would have evolved. I believe the Zephyr is much more refreshing and nice to look at.
The 2 stars takes other aspects into consideration, but as I posted, the LS is 2nd (behind the Tbird) in reliability for the entry luxury segment. So where does that place the competition, and that's a fact. It's also a fact that the wife of the CEO of Consumer Reports, is an executive for Toyota, just wanted to share that
Laxman,
Yes, stay tuned. The "Edge" was just released tonight if you wish to take a look at that forum.
I appreciate your reply, however, if the car was as good as you claim, the would not have retired them. GM still has the Impala, Grand Prix and Honda has the long running Accord. The only reason you retire the name is because it failed in the market.
As I stated earlier, financially it was too expensive to keep the Tbird and LS around. The name (letters) makes no difference in keeping or not.
So if we follow your philosophy, the Taurus failed in the market place because the name is retired? A vehicle which resurected respect for Ford in the 80's and set the benchmark in design for future midsizers. The Probe, another vehicle which gained respect for it's handling considering it was FWD, as well as the Contour which actually made driving a sedan enjoyable. Tbird, a legendary name for deacdes, etc.
Retiring names is done for other reasons mainly marketing, and introducing something fresh and different in their segments. Obviously not because something has failed.
Comments
The LS will be discontinued sometime between now and September.
Not sure about the concepts and whether they're the D3 cars or not - but there will be 3 of them. We should know in a few more days.
Why do you say it would need a whole new platform? Car companies are constantly making big changes to platforms to accomodate different vehicles, so I don't see why it would be so tough to make an AWD into a RWD.
I'm not against FWD. I own one, and have owned many others in the past. BUT, its not what I'm looking for in a V8 luxo sedan. Same goes for AWD.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Did you ever wonder why there was so much more room in the cabin of a FWD car? Because there's no tunnel for the transmission and drive shaft and the engine and tranny are both forward of the firewall and don't intrude in the cabin at all.
You can't take a FWD transverse engine platform and convert it to RWD without basically starting over from scratch.
i just can't comprehend how one manufacturer can make a FWD compact car platform into an AWD SUV towing-capable platform, but are unable to make a FWD platform into a RWD one. Doesn't seem like a big jump to me to put a tunnel in, but, hey, i'm not an engineer.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Using a longitudinal engine and conventional RWD tranny shifts more weight to the rear and allows for a better F/R weight distribution. Transverse engines put more weight over the front axle.
Using a transverse engine to power the rear wheels requires a transfer case to power the rear drive shaft at 90 degrees to the crank. This adds extra cost, weight and complexity.
Making that FWD/transverse engine setup into AWD also adds extra cost, weight, friction, and complexity. I would like to hear some thoughts on the benefits of AWD. Eliminate torque-steer? Better at-the-limit handling?
It seems to me that FWD has come a long way in the past 20 years. Torque steer isn't as objectionable today on modern mid-performance cars as it was on the underpowered X bodies that GM introduced many years ago. I also wonder how many potential buyers of the D3 will routinely explore the at-the-limit handling potential.
Perhaps the D3 will appeal to those who have been driving 4WD/AWD SUVs and want to get back into a stylish sedan. I am expecting the D3 to be on the short list to replace my LS. I just need to find a way to justify spending extra money to haul around more weight!
Thoughts?
I believe that Lincoln looked at all available platforms in the company (not having the option of building a new one from scratch) and the one that was the most feasible was the Volvo platform which already has an AWD system available. AWD gives Lincoln a feature that most competitors don't have. Whether that is enough to sway new buyers remains to be seen.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The debate rages on – and often seems to rise to the level of Manual trans. vs. Automatic trans. on the various Corvette boards.
I currently drive a (relatively) high TQ & high HP FWD sedan.
My previous 3 sedans were 2 LSs (each a V8 Sport) and an AWD German 8 cylinder sedan, each with a 5 speed manumatic trans. and 250 – 300 HP \ TQ.
My current ride (Pontiac Grand Prix GXP – V8 FWD 303 \ 323 HP \ TQ & curb weight approx. 3600, with [ only ] a 4 speed manumatic trans., no overhead cams, etc.) is actually more fun to drive than any of these prior 3. For me.
Others will think I am Koo-Koo for making that statement. And that’s fine.
So I have substantial (15K + miles) recent ‘real word’ driving experience with the 3 primary drive types available for what I’d term a ‘sporting sedan’.
Clearly, there are aspects where the GXP is no competitor for an LS of any description. But it is (way) quicker than any stock LS V8, it sounds wonderful, it handles exceptionally well and rides very nearly as well as my 2003 LS Sport. (Given the size, profile and performance characteristics of the OEM Bridgestones, the ride quality was actually one of the biggest surprises in my 3 test drives!)
Now, clearly, my GXP lacks a couple of specific features compared to the LSs, like cooled seats, but the FWD characteristics (torque steer, “plow”) are so well managed in any reasonable public road driving that I see no real or significant compromise compared to a RWD sedan. The LS has better F\R balance, but the GXP feels well balanced right up to pretty high cornering speeds – well short of absolute limits, but (again) as close as I am willing to drive on public roads.
Again, I am not suggesting that the GXP is a competitor for the LS.
I am only suggesting that aggressive & innovative chassis tuning (Bilstein dampers) and current tire technology have resulted here in driving dynamics that are as rewarding to me as the RWD and AWD alternatives that I also test drove. And I drove most every sedan with an MSRP between $30 and $55K.
And I find the acceleration and handling to be most entertaining every time I drive it.
And the GXP offered me a bargain priced \ high “bang for the buck” alternative, when I decided to change.
- Ray
Torque bigot, but not RWD bigot . .
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If the GXP had been available with AWD for another $1500 and it's added weight reduced your mileage and dulled the acceleration slightly, would you have ordered it to gain the last ounce of handling capability?
I am not going to cry over what might have been but my hope was that AWD would be optional in the D3 and not standard equipment.
In house, maybe the next Volvo S80 might come close in equal offering, at almost the same pricepoint. Although it's 2 totally different demographics so it's more like covering all bases.
Many 6-cylinder cars can run circles around our V8 LSs, I'm sorry to say, while getting better gas mileage. heck, in the case of the Volvo in my stable, it does the job with just 5 cylinders! AND, I wouldn't be the least big surprised if, given the outcries similar to yours, Acura has a V8 in its options list (if not standard) by the time this new Lincoln finally arrives.
And I do beg to differ on the chrysler comment. I really do think Chrysler believes it is luxury. At least, that's what they want the consumers to think when comparing to the Charger. And, let's not forget, the 300C AWD starts at under $35k. The Lincoln will be higher than that, I'm sure, so not exactly a direct competitor, either.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I guess we'll have to wait and see where the first D3 car falls as far as price, performance and size.
Remember Ford's V8 (specially the Tritons) kick anywhere from 85-90% of their torque by 1500RPM. Certainly, there's no replacement for displacement. Yes, there's are V6's that clock in under 6 Seconds for that matter (like the Nissan VQ engine family) but the vehicles they are in, are hundreds of pounds lighter as well. Also, the transmission gearing on the LS is a bit...lax. A reprogramming (Dont do it, because it'll void your warranty) removes a few ticks as well.
Although the fuel economy of an LS, is rediculous. The best I've been able to do was 15.7 and that deal with a complete highway trip. Around town, 12-13, but then again I've been known to make a Civic dip down into the 18-20MPG range as well.
Also, if we go back to the first LS, it's 3.9L V8 made a competitive (at that time) 250HP. Lexus LS400 (of that time) was posting equal power for it's displacement. It's the addition of VCT (on both Lexus and Lincolns revised engines) that allowed them to gain power (while Lexus increased it's displacement).
Yes a Nissan VQ 3.5L can make up to 298HP in one variation of it, now...in 2005/2006 because the technology is there and has been implemented. The Lincoln 3.9L is based on tech from 2-3 years ago, where THEN it made a difference, Now it's outdated in comparison.
Hence, the next generation of V8's will naturally incorporate various other features, made competitive with equal displacements engines of it's time.
And now with such goodies as Direct Injection technology, it's more fine-tuning that can be done with certain engines. But thats a whole other topic.
I think the AWD/RWD factor is the critisizm that most are concerned with, rather than the engine. I think probably because it's a Lincoln, and people are expecting a V8 because it's the Lincolnized thing to do. I mean, it would be totally un-American to not offer a V8 on an American Flagship vehicle...
Hmmm .. I don't have any inside information but with the LS starting at $39285 and the Volvo S80 AWD $100 more with a 5cyl engine, I tend to doubt this D3 vehicle with AWD and a V8 would be somewhere over $40K to start? The bigger one closer to $50K, Town car territory. Just guessing. The Lexus GS and Infiniti M are $45K to start and I think they are the real target of this car.
Ant makes a great point about the V8 vs. a similar output V6 issue. One of the things I love about the LS V8 and other high-quality V8s is the rock-steady idle quality, the total lack of vibration under load, and the ability to do its job without drama. (It also sounds beautiful at 6000 rpm.) Quality of acceleration is just as important as quantity in a $40K luxury-type vehicle. I have yet to drive a high-output or turbocharged 6 that is as satisfying to me.
I was just refuting the fact that folks will see the V8 as being an advantage over the competitors V6s ... UNLESS Lincoln can do as stated above and actually make their V8 better than the competitors V6s.
Basically, with gas prices the way they are, I don't think you are going to sway many folks with 1% better acceleration in exchange for 20% worse fuel economy, for example.
I'm certainly one of those folks who would look at, let's say, an S60R against this car. The S60R fully loaded is under $40k and gets to 60 in under 6 secs. Plus the 6-speed stick, AWD, and adjustable suspension. SO, if lincoln DOES somehow come out in that pricerange for a nicely loaded one AND has comparable mileage AND has the responsive V8 to boot, then they might have something to crow about. I'll be shocked if all that happens, but I really hope they could pull that off.
And, to the last poster, I also totally agree with you that there is nothing quite like a naturally aspirated V8 for smoothness and satisfaction ... i certainly enjoy it more than my Volvo, although the volvo is very close in acceleration numbers, it just doesn't FEEL the same, nor is it as smooth ... but I can overlook that "feeling" if, in order to get it, I have to sacrifice in so many other departments.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
- Lincoln says they won't be competing with Caddy over $40K ... Well, they're competing with somebody in that market with the LS stripper at $39300, the Town Car in the mid $40s, the Mark LT is around $40K, and the Navigator is Minimum $50K. Besides, I don't think it prudent to listen to what Lincoln says about what Lincoln will do, cause I don't really think they have a clue. They are in totally reactive mode. On a similar vein, I recall back in '99 or so after the huge success of the Navigator, reading an interview with whatever nitwit was in charge of Cadillac then and he said basically "Cadillac is a luxury car brand. It'll be a cold day in hell before Caddy builds an SUV or a truck." Wonder where he is now? Bet it's cold. :>)
If Lincoln does price the car I saw at $35K with AWD and a V8, it'll be the steal of the century. Lok at the Fusion/Milan vs the Zephyr. You can get a nice F/M for about, what, $25K say? A similar Zephyr will be $33K. That's 25% more. So if a Montego is $30K, the Lincoln is $40K. And these Lincolns have far more cachet than the 500/Montego boredom twins. Ford will get as many $$$s for them as they can.
I cross-shopped an S60 T5 against my LS V6 getrag in 2001. I bought the LS. The Volvo was nice and it was definitely quicker with the turbo, but the LS was a better riding car, felt solid, had no torque steer (the Volvo had it's share), was bigger in every respect and figured to be more reliable. (If only because no turbo). I'm at almost 70K miles now and the car still runs like new and I've spent $0.00 on it other than oil and tires (and the Magnaflow and K&N I put in).
I will not get real excited about the new Lincolns if they use a V8 made by a company basically famous for motorcycles and pianos. I want an AMERICAN V8.
OK, back to regular programming until I can think of more nonsense.
I don't know anything about the pricing on Lincoln trucks but no one in their right mind is paying in the $40s for an LS or Town Car. They are heavily discounted. Maybe we will see a bit more realistic MSRPs on the D3. A TC is likely profitable at $35K. The LS has an expensive platform and no other high-volume model uses it. There will be a lot more volume in the D3 platform. Your point of Boredom twin pricing plus 25% makes some sense.
I cross-shopped a C70 coupe (247 HP turbo) before I bought my LS. Nice car but it should have been named "Torquesteer." No way could you accelerate at WOT in a straight line.
LS starts at $39,300. And here's a list of options so u can imagine where it tops out: Various optional upgrades include a power moonroof, HID headlights, heated and cooled front seats, walnut burl wood trim, power-adjustable pedals and a DVD-based navigation system combined with a THX-certified six-CD audio system
Town Car: $42,055-$50,525 (Edmunds)
Now, yeah, they are discounted but when you start at $50K (loaded LS or TC) you ain't gettin out the door for $35K.
Yeah, the Volvo "Torquesteer" I like that:>) Just think, that's what they're basing the new Lincolns on. :>( IF I could afford one, it would absolutely HAVE to be AWD.
One reason Lincoln never went upmarket was the presence of Jaguar and a corporate mandate not to compete. Now that Jag is moving back to more exclusivity and more expensive products then that opens up the range a bit more.
I still think base price has to be around $35K. Fully loaded may get up to $45K.
That would seem like a good line up to me - especially if one of the D3 variants is more expressive and sporty while the other one aims at the full-boat American luxury buyer.
Having said that, however, under full track conditions, I feel my lincoln would be more predictable, controllable, and fun with its V8/RWD setup (keeping in mind that my volvo is 8 years old and not as tight and surefooted as it used to be). Better than both, however, was my RWD V6 350Z ... but that's another story for a different class of vehicle.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
One of my favorite rentals is an S60 or S80 (when I can get one.) I have driven other powerful FWD cars (Northstar Caddies, Supercharged GM products) and didn't find the torque steer to be much of an issue.
mine is a '98 T5, but the way. Pretty much identical to that '99 aside from the electronic maf thing they changed (and mine has 2 more doors
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Don't forget the Navigator (with an XL version) and the new MKX. The Mark LT should get a makeover with more distinction from the F150 now that 1st year sales hit their target of 10K units.
I still think they should sell a Lincoln version of the Volvo hardtop convertible.
Oh yeah, I read that Lincoln has decided to go with alphanumeric names 'in the future'. Thus the next Aviator has been renamed the "MKX". I can hardly wait to hear the rest of the names. Maybe the D3 will be the "MKD3"? How about the "MKNAV" or the "MKTC"? Or maybe they'll do "MKXI" "MKXII"?
Of course, they're dropping the one car that already meets this spec: the "LS". And they just released another car that doesn't: the "Zephyr" and a truck that sorta does and sorta doesn't: the "Mark LT".
Now I ask you, why do some people have the impression that Lincoln and it's marketing department are: "Totally Clueless" I wonder?
And, akirby, you may get your wish. I'm sure they want to at least wait and see if its a success. If Volvo starts getting too many sales with it, I'm sure they'll want to canibalize some of those for Lincoln.
I just wonder what they could do to make it a Lincoln. I'm not sure they can fit much more than a small V6 under the hood, if even that. And then you'd still need to keep it a transverse design with AWD (if we extrapolate from our previous discussion regarding a transverse FWD platform needing to remain as such).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
JDPower VDS
The Lincoln LS was rated 2nd (behind the T-bird, same platform and drivetrain) in dependability by JDPower's survey for 2005 for entry luxury vehicles.
Medicore performance? The vehicle has been heralded for it's european-like handling. It's extremely sophisticated platform is being relegated for Jaguar use because of how expensive it is to manufacturer.
If you find the LS to have mediocre performance, and is bland, I can already tell you the Zephyr is not for you because it'll certainly dissapoint in that aspect since it really doesn't do anything better than the LS other than fuel economy and cargo room.
I looked at JD Power and it wasn't so great. Also looked at CR and they report a high incidence of problems. I can only think that this is why they ended the run and want a fresh name "Zephyr" even though it has been used before. So.. No V8 either?
No, the Zephyr cannot fit a V8 engine, it's based on the Ford Fusion using the CD3 platform (Mazda6 developed). The largest engine that can fit is the new 3.5L Duratec35 V6 (which is actually the same size as the outgoing 3.0L Curatec30) which debuts in a few months, along with AWD and a 6speed automatic co-developed with GM.
The Zephyr wasn't designed to replace the LS. Only in essense, it replaces the notion of being an entry luxury vehicle which was the LS's prior mission. Which is why the LS was pushed upmarket 2 years ago, to make room for the Zephyr (price wise, and segment wise). And why this year it's only offered in V8.
The decision from Ford to discontinue the vehicle mainly lies upon the expensive platform for the pricepoint it has. The vehicle isn't profittable when selling under $40K, nor the T-bird for that matter. BUT it does work for Jaguar which has been able to take the platform and use it on the new XJ, XK.
Also, many consumers can't accept that a Jaguar shared mechanicals/platforms with a "Lincoln", asin the S-Type so that was another nail in it's coffin. And factory allocation... Not worth having a factory build such a small number of these DEW98 platformed vehicles here in the U.S. Also, the engine line isn't profittable either, making just one engine to be used in one specific platform.
And to move onto engines, it wasn't profittable to make the other engine Duratec30 on the LS V6, which was specifically altered for LS use in comparison to the other Duratec30's, hence why the V6 model was dropped for 2006.
One of the new Lincoln sedans (which will debut on one of the autoshows soon) takes over the sporty role of the LS.
How many miles, and what road conditions, have you driven an LS?
So your entire judgement of the LS is from a base model rental V6? I wouldn't be too impressed (except with the handling) either. I have had 3 LSes. I still have my original 2000 V6 model approaching 120K miles! Oh yea, except for a couple of warranty issues, my only out of pocket expenses are the usual wear and tear items. We just traded the wife's 2001 V6 for a 2006. So far the 2006 is light years ahead of my 2000. As for price, mine stickered at $48K and change. We paid ~$40K +TT with X-plan for it.
Not entirely true, but also a somewhat meaningless statement.
JD Power conducts surveys for all the North American auto companies and then makes the results public.
In other words, Lincoln was not the only one paying for the survery of entry luxury in which the LS placed 2nd. Lexus, Cadillac, Infinity, MB, BMW, Volvo, etc. all paid.
If JD Power were biased for one manufacturer over the rest, then the rest would all stop using JD Power.
Other than the somewhat small side mirrors, I had no complaints about this car at all.
The V8 in a lot of stop and go driving returned around 18 mpgs for me even. And for someone who normally drives V6s and 4s, the V8 was really an eye opener.
I enjoyed this car a lot. It will be missed with Ford going for the AWD. Though I can see why Ford feels it has to leverage its Volvo r/d with Lincoln.
If I could find one for 8k off as you and your spouse did, I would give it some serious thought.
Everyone has an opinion, biased or not, wether we want to hear it or not. Every car mag and almost all "consumer reports" are a business. No matter how much they try to remain unbiased they are still going to be influenced in a way that can taint the truth. So please don't believe everything you read.
Lastly, Dozi, there is enough negativity in the world. It is just not cool to pick a fight for no good reason Steve. When you have driven an LS for half a decade, as alot of the people in this forum have, then you can make an accurate assessment of the LS. If you start today then you could obtain that status in 4 years, 11 months and 3 weeks?
Now a question for the A-team (ANT14 & akirby)
Will we see the D3 @ the Detroit Autoshow? Surely we will right?
P.S.
Sorry for the rant above but something had to be said.
My goodness, how can you not say the styling is bland?? If the current style was any success, it would have evolved. I believe the Zephyr is much more refreshing and nice to look at.
Laxman,
Yes, stay tuned. The "Edge" was just released tonight if you wish to take a look at that forum.
So if we follow your philosophy, the Taurus failed in the market place because the name is retired? A vehicle which resurected respect for Ford in the 80's and set the benchmark in design for future midsizers. The Probe, another vehicle which gained respect for it's handling considering it was FWD, as well as the Contour which actually made driving a sedan enjoyable. Tbird, a legendary name for deacdes, etc.
Retiring names is done for other reasons mainly marketing, and introducing something fresh and different in their segments. Obviously not because something has failed.