Please note this discussion now exists in two locations here in the sedan's board and the Owner's Clubs board. This discussion has not been moved. This post and all other post in this discussion will appear in both boards. We have selected this group to be on the Owner's Club because of the enthusiasm of the members. We would like to give you all an area that LS-centric so we can give this group more attention.
Wixom is probably out for this year. Logistics would be rather extreme. May be a possibility for next year.
However a LS Mania 2-East Coast is a definite possibility if enough people are interested. Jim Rogers is enthusiastic about having more of the Mania events so he would like me to get an interest list together. Timing would probably be summertime. I'm thinking possibly Washington D.C. area, perhaps the old Summit Point racetrack. Seems to be convenient to Southeast and Northeast folks. If interested post it on the LLSOC Message Board under LS Mania 2001-East Coast and here so we can start planning.
I would love to have some track time and I never been known to say no to happy hour. I'm guessing that by then I would have lots of questions about the SST.
George - Anything that I should watch out for when ordering? Is there an added cost to ordering a new one instead of taking one from the lot? I'm kepping my current wheels as a third car so I'm in no rush to get the LS. Except that I already took money out to buy it and I'm tired of driving a brick (Explorer XLT V8). Thanks for the help.
Hector: Just that you should negotiate the best deal that you can. Most dealers are more than happy to custom order a car. There is no charge, in fact, your price should be no more than it would be if you bought a 2001 off the lot, maybe less, cause the dealer has no storage/inventory cost for an ordered car.
Okay I finally found the transcript from the Leavy Morgan chat. I've added it to LLSOC under the Chat Room link.
I humbly apologize to the group for the miserable start of the mailing list. I assumed(I know, I know!) that there wouldn't be a high volume of emails since we had the Edmunds board so I thought I would save everyone the trouble of signing up for the mailing list by loading it from the newspaper list. Bad move! I should have known this group loves to talk! In hindsight I should have created the mailing list without anyone in it and then with the newsletter told people that if they wanted to be on an email discussion list they could opt-in.
For punishment I will not drive my LS for the entire weekend and watch old episodes of Starsky and Hutch.
Brian,don't be so hard on yourself. I actually enjoyed it for a while. Based on the # of emails I was getting, I thought I had suddenly become wildly popular. Not driving the LS for a whole weekend is punishment enough, but adding Starsky & Hutch reruns?-too much. Instead I suggest you rent the Mitsubishi Mirage that I had at LS Mania (because they didn't have the Ford Focus I had asked for-wanted to see if it was as good as they say)
Can anyone get me an update on how bad this perceived problem on the 2000 automatic transmission has been. I've read numerous articles in R&T and also the long term test results by Edmunds and they seem to state that the 2000 tranny has been at a minimum very annoying. How bad has it been and did they make any improvements in the tranny in the 2001 model year.
I'm close to trading in my 2000 Acura TL to trade up as I want a more potent driving experience as well as as somewhat of a more upscale feel in a car and I'm trying to decide if I'm making a mistake.
There were a lot of issues with the original software. Most were addressed with a 12/00 version. The 2001 software was also improved and specifically addresses the delays when shifting into reverse. The 2001 version was made available to 2000 owners a few weeks ago in a TSB. The only problem that seems to remain with the 2001 tranny is that the 2-3 and 3-2 shifts are not always as smooth as we would like. That's because it involves two separate gear changes that must be synchronized very closely and that's hard to do consistently. I don't remember hearing any complaints from owners with the 2001 software. If there are, please speak up.
My LS has a build date of 5/00. I had the TSB done, (01-01-05 I believe) and I am totally sastified. My non-SST had a delayed 2-3 and an occasional 1-2 shift. The trans exhibits none of the problems I had before, nor the ones I didn't have but read about.
The problem is not as bad as the mags. make it seem. I have an early build 2000 and have not had any issues with the auto. shifting, either from park to reverse or reverse to drive. The 2-3 and 3-2 shift will always seem a little longer due to have to shift, what is basically, two transmissions, at the same time. If you buy a 2001 and you are ordering it, it will have the new software so don't worry about it. If you buy one off the lot, drive it and if it seems to take too long to shift, find out if it was built before the date of the reflash and if the dealer has had it done. If he hasn't have him do it prior to accepting the car.
I thought sometime back some one mentioned that they had condensation in the headlight assembly. Yesterday, after having the car washed (2000 LS V8 w/ sport package) I noticed that the passenger side headlight had considerable condensation. Almost 20 hours later there is still a good amount of condensation. Has there been a TSB for this?
The moisture in the headlight assembly was a common complaint a while back. My right one needed replacement. I have not seen this issue brought up recently. My dealer noticed it after they had washed the car and just replaced it.
Actually, jnowski is consistent with where this forum has been heading; i.e. the overall experience with the LS, which includes the car, Ford Motor, and the dealer.
We loyal forum members and LS owners are trying to provide input and energy to improve all three. So far, it's been very rewarding, due to the efforts of a few dedicated forum members and some knowledgeable risk-takers from Ford.
I'm not in complete agreement with jnowski's post ... I'm uncomfortable with his steroetyping dealers, even though his comments fit many dealers I've dealt with. I'd like to see dealers participate in this forum. To do so, I think we need to create an environment friendly to them.
I believe that the dealer personnel he described are an endangered species ... largely due to the power and reach of forums like this.
I'll now roll back my chair & don my helmet and goggles.
I too had condensation build-up in both head lamp assemblies, although at different times. These are supposed to be sealed units, and hence, should never have condensation. In both instances, my dealer replaced the head lamp assembly exhibiting condensation during the routine oil change service interval. No big deal, as I do not consider this to be a significant safety issue that demands immediate attention. Obviously, no charge as this is clearly a warranty item. As I understand it, head lamp condensation was a common problem for cars with early build dates (pre Jan 2000).
actually, many of us in "inconsiderate buyers" are as much as an enthusiast as you, but the topic does not tend to raise the need for the enthusiast's comments or opinions...many of us post on numerous other topics, just like this one, with similar passions, desires, etc. ...but, just like the topic "drunk drivers" is not about the merits of the "Audi quattro in the turns", inconsiderate buyers has offered lively discussion of the PROCESS of the purchase, and what goes thru the minds of the buyers and sellers (salespeople), as opposed to the merits of each type of car...your criticism is unwarranted, as the topic is not about the enthusiastic people who buy the LS, or S-type, or GS430, etc...it is about what it says it is about.
I, too had the "problem." My dealer said it was a common problem and ordered the new assembly for me over the phone, without having to bring the car in. If I remember correctly, it took about 3 days to get the part.
I have talked at length with one of the salesmen at my dealership about the LS. This dealer apparently knows what it has. Last time I was there, they told me that they had 5 manuals. That is more than wes in the county when I bought my auto (all manuals were gone and we were on a time schedule). They are VERY pumped up with the LS. They even know about the car! As an aside, I asked a salesman once how huch horsepower a Taurus had. He opened the hood and said they have a formula to convert it from liters! I almost fell down laughing. Needless to say, I bought my Sable elsewhere. I'm not sure if the salesman Brian talked to at Mania was from my dealership, but they sent someone. I haven't talked to him yet, but I hope to when I get my new CD player.
I'm trying to figure out what the difference between a email discussion list and the message board is. I would have thought people would be more comfortable posting on the board than sending an email but the avalanche of email that was generated on the first day of the email list seems to negate that theory plus what was being discussed hasn't really shown up on the board. Is having an email list worthwhile, as long as I start it out with no one in it and whoever(whomever?) wants to participate can opt-in? What are your thoughts? I don't want to create something that is a) a pain-in-the-neck or b)useless.
So as not to tie up the board please send me an email with your thoughts to postmaster@llsoc.com I'll compile them and report back before I do anything.
That's another reason I'd like to have dealers here. I'd like hear why they don't stock at least one manual transmission demo. I bet they can make a pretty good case, and maybe the marketing system can be altered in a way that benefits all.
The 'official' communication channels don't always work. Often, there are some wise thoughts that aren't allowed entry into the official channel. This forum is an opportunity for them to be heard.
The headlamps are NOT sealed units they are vented and a pressre differential change can pull moist air into the lens. The lamps are designed to clear within a certain time period once the lamps are illuminated. This is a common practice on lamp design now. The earlier concern with moisture was due to a bad seal and caused so much moisture to enter that the lamps never cleared. Dick
YES! If it happens anywhere near the DC Metro area, count me in, Im there. (Note: I would hope that Lincoln brings in at least a couple of loaner cars, as I would prefer not to drive my own auto-tranny car on the courses. Always nice to drive someone elses car hard! :-)
Marsha7 - please reread jnowski's initial post. He was specifically talking about the salespeople on those forums and their attitudes towards buyers that try to get a good deal. While this doesn't represent all salespeople's attitudes, I think it's true more often than not. Check out Edmund's undercover article. Joe was simply saying that we don't want those type of salespeople on this forum, and I agree. OTOH I think it would be good if we had salespeople who were also enthusiasts and could learn and contribute. That's all Joe was trying to say.
I agree with akirby. jnowski wasn't slamming dealers as a whole, just crappy salespeople with lousy attitudes toward their customers. Which, if you think about it, is an oxymoron, since as salespeople, customer service is supposed to be their top priority.
As the dealer is the first impression people get of Lincoln, so is the saleperson the first impression people get of the dealer. I still deal with salespeople that think the customer is just an idiot wanting to be ripped-off.
I've also dealt with salespeople who have an intimate knowledge of the car they are selling. That's what made me buy the LS at the dealer I bought it from. She knew what she was talking about, was obviously enthusiastic about the handling characteristics of the car, and didn't try the "Get a great deal if you buy it right now" garbage that is too common. The entire sales process was very low-key and not pressured. I was impressed with both the salesperson and the dealer's handling of the sale.
Since then I found the salesperson has moved on, but the dealer still handles the sales the same way. Would I use this dealer again? Sure. The owner also drives a LS. Now if I could convince them that stocking a couple of manuals would be good....
Thank you for your response. It is nice to know the real cause for the condensation. In my post regarding condensation, I was merely repeating what I had picked-up from following this board for the past year. Shortly after taking delivery on my LS8 sport a little over a year ago, I had read about several people on this board complaining about headlight condensation. Someone stated that they were sealed units and should never show condensation. Shortly after reading about this condition, I too noticed the problem (I intentionally started looking to see if it occurred). In both instances, the condensation would not clear up. My dealer was very cooperative in replacing these units.
This board has proven its usefulness time and time again. While I would have eventually noticed the condensation problem, the board sensitized me to the issue and brought about a quick resolution. Now, Dick Cupka once again provides clarity to issue. Thank you board participants, LLSOC club members, Edmunds, and the folks at Lincoln-Mercury for contributing to fantastic ownership experience!
From reading your responses, did I: a. slightly, b. moderately, c. seriously, d. totally and completely
misunderstand the meaning of jnowski's post? It seemed to me that he was commenting on the "lack of enthusiasts" in the topic, and I was simply responding that the topic is not an enthusiast's topic, per se. What did I miss?
The basic trouble with message boards is that no one can really tell how a message is being delivered. There is no tonal quality to indicate how serious someone is being other than their writing. Sometimes that can be taken in a manner that wasn't intended.
I wasn't taking you to task for commenting. Extending the discussion perhaps. Dealers do need to have enthusiasts as salespeople, at least for those cars that enthusiasts purchase. It is a delight, albeit an infrequent one, to experience a salesperson that seems to be as jazzed about the car as you are.
It is true that the "dealer boards" are not enthusiast topics, but should they be? Does the enthusiast audience generally demand higher levels of service and knowledge than the average car purchaser to make the experience worthwhile? Does a dealer who markets cars to enthusiasts care more than a dealer who doesn't or take in more money than a regular dealer? Don't know the answers. It would be interesting to know what the dealers think. I know it has long been an adversarial relationship between dealers and their customers, not to mention the factories. Not sure why it is so. I also wonder why American dealerships are more so this way than the Japanese or German luxury dealers, at least from the limited experience I've had with the latter.
My lease is up in 4/03 and I am still giddy in my enjoyment of my 4/00 LSV8 w/SST. I did the bra, the sunroof wind deflector, Borlas w/tips, K&S filter and Aura 35 copper tint. My gas mileage could be better, amd the hesitation at low-end full throttle is annoying, but I did put about 3/4 of a car length on a Mark, from a light through about 1/5 of a mile. The handling/cornering as well as stability/breaking is a pleasure for me. My music choice is Roomfull of Blues (check 'em out). What can I look forward to in "03? Will this be the best model? What will be different with the LS in 2003....any thoughts?
I had promised to post the results of my contact with LMS.
I was contacted by phone by a Gene Angelino of the NJ branch of LSM. Their business is chiefly in modifying Mark VIII's. They don't really have any kind of defined program for the LS yet. He told me that he was eager to work up an LS, but had been unable so far to get one into his shop to work on. He did say that he had "played" with an LS that,I think, belongs to a relative. He installed a 73mm MAF sensor and a lower temp thermostat. He said that this really made a difference but if I'm not mistaken, we were cautioned in an earlier post against using a lower temp thermostat in the LS.
If you log onto their site, www.lincolnmotorsport@maxrpm.com, the home page has a thumbnail of a modified LS. I had thought that this was a sketch, but Gene informed me that this was a real car. We agreed on our dislike for most ground effects packages, but he was quite adamant that this one really looks good. It will be available in about a month.
Also on their site are photos and a downloadable sound sample of the exhaust system that they use on the Marks. Gene indicated that this could easily be duplicated on an LS at substatially lower cost compared to the Borla.
He talked some about the Mark VIII's that they do. In his words, "we turn them into 2-ton Cobras". There are Marks running around with Triton V10's swapped in!
He acknowledged that the Mark is obviously dead for now and that most of the mods are being done by "kids". At this point, I tried to pursuade him that he should get in on the ground floor with the LS. I told him about LS Mania and how many enthusiasts there were who were interested in modifying their cars. (By now, there may have been more LS's sold than the entire Mark 8 model run). I told him that in light of the forthcoming T-Bird, planned "baby" LS and 2003 Mustang all using a version of the DEW98 platform, it would behoove him to get into this. Especially in the case of the Mustang, it looks like they will be going to the Lima V8. We all know what the Mustang aftermarket is like, don't we.
That's about it. I was a little disappointed in the lack of product, but he does seem interested in the LS. He asked me for the the LLSOC web address and he knows about Town Hall, so who knows?
Would anyone like to volunteer their car for them to experiment on:)? They do have a shop in Las Vegas also. If mine wasn't leased, I would definitely go for at least the exhaust system and maybe the MAF.
I just look for a salesman that is friendly, answers my questions regarding the sale, and doesn't hem me up at the lot for 1/2 a day trying to close the sale. I am not patient enough to play the "sales manager" game with hours of negotiating. I usually show up with terms in mind and a HP-10 financial calculator in pocket to figure out how good/bad an offered deal is. I make a reasonable offer and if we can't come close in one iteration, I just get up and leave. I can answer my own questions about the vehicle's specs and features through other, more informed sources (i.e. right here for the LS is good!).
I would have to vote for 'D', but that's not a slam on you. I think you simply misunderstood what Joe was saying. I reposted the text below for easy comparison and if you reread it carefully you'll see that when Joe says 'they' he is referring specifically to salespeople who post in these topics (hence the references to sales and commissions). He wasn't saying that there weren't any enthusiasts in those topics. He was responding to an earlier post wondering whether we should encourage dealers/salespeople to join the forum.
jnowski wrote:
After visiting some of the forums where car salespeople reside, i.e. "inconsiderate buyers" & "Confessions of a car salesman", I'm not so sure that I would want those peoples comments on this forum. They seem to have a very negative view of any buyer who tries to get a decent deal on an automobile, e.g. calling customers "grinders", "moochers", etc. Their main interest seems to be in tactics useful in manipulation of the customer, and maximization of their commission. Actual interest in the car itself is limited to sales/commission potential and almost nothing else. They are NOT car enthusiasts.
akirby is entirely correct, although I suppose that I could have made myself a little clearer. My comment was directed towards the only apparent, (to my knowlege), car salespeople on Edmunds. I agree with everyone else that there are excepions to my "stereotypical" comments, although like most everyone else, I have met very few.
I too, was very pleased with my LS buying experience. My salesman was very courteous, didn't play games, and we did it all through the internet. But, without implying anything bad or unproffessional, he was not at the "enthusiast" level of knowledge about the car. Which is just fine with me, I do my own research and only expect a pleasant buying experience from my salesperson anyway.
Sorry folks, but I don't have jjfrye's email otherwise I would have just emailed him this response.
jjfrye: If by your comment you are implying that I am "lining my pockets" by requesting people pay for membership in my club you are way off-base and I'm insulted by your inference. Since I started LLSOC I have spent 60 hours, on average, per week, on the site. I have also spent a considerable sum of money getting the site up and running. I won't dignify your comment by telling you how much because it is meaningless to you and to this board.
If people don't want to pay for membership in the club, guess what? It's a free country and no one is forcing them. If anyone feels that I'm way off base then I'll quit and someone else can tackle all this work. I doubt anyone else out there is willing to sacrifice this much time for a car. And if people want me to stop posting, then I'll do that too. This is all a labor of love for me and my LS. I'm not doing it as an "opportunity to line my pockets".
Keeping in the mind that There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, I think it makes perfect sense to have a dues-paying LS Owner's Club. If you want a decent organization that really has something to offer, you have to pony up the funds.
The annual dues for the two major '94-'96 Chevy Impala SS Owner's Clubs--NAISSO and ISSCA--are each $40. ISSCA just starting printing their bi-monthly magazine. Very nice 24 page glossy b&w and color. Check out the NAISSO web site. These things take time and cost money. No one would or should do it for free. I don't think any of the people responsible for these groups is lining their pockets. They are providing a valuable service that people willingly pay for. LS owners should do same for their club. Count me in.
Don't ask me how, but I've managed to get two different presentations of this forum. One has the user name at the beginning of each header and the other has the message number at the beginning. If you click on the user name at the beginning of the header you do not get a pop-up window - doing this gave me an email address for jjfrye with no other information. If you click on the user name at the end of the header (with the other format) you get a pop-up window with the normal town hall profile info. I think in one case I clicked on the Lincoln LS forum from the sign-in page top 10 list and the other I went through the subscription "check messages" feature. I'll see if I can reproduce it.
I agree with giowa: you get what you pay for. We all know web hosting accounts start at around $15/mo. You start adding features like 24Mb video files that dozens of people download (some repeats too) and the hosting companies start adding on bandwidth fees. Throw on database ports and you have even more fees. I figure Brian could easily spend over $1000/yr, not including time spent, just to have the website available. Then tack on long distance calls and such for organizing special events like Irvine and a possible DC even this summer and he's putting out serious bucks and time. Which is precisely why my own website is an enthusiast site and is not as robust as llsoc.com. I'll be watching llsoc.com for the dues announcement and mail mine on in. Better yet: Brian, if you don't already have one, set up a PayPal account . Then I can fling money via computer instead of writing a check and mailing it. What a concept!
I heard a slight grumbling, either here or on the LS mailing list, about a mid-year new model. As a pre-LS owner who is ready to convert over to LS owner in anywhere from 0-6 months, I would like to know if waiting some time gets me a car that is 'X' times better?
BTW: For demographics, I am only considering the manual transmission, and I just turned 33. I think the buyer range that the LS covers is amazing.
Also to follow up on the Dues subject, if you do not have a paypal account, why not sign up and give Brian the referral credit? I was a long time member of the Eagle Talon (Club DSM) list. That was free, but accepted donations, Todd Day did tons of free work to help the community and he is well respected and appreciated! I would stay on LS club even becoming dues based, because I realize the value this provides. Thanks Brian!
I certainly agree with thomas_l. We can easily get used to getting all this info on the Internet for free. But someone has to work hard to create and maintain it. If the info on LLSOC is expected to be useful and timely, then we should expect to pay for it. Brian puts in a ridiculous amount of time into this effort and it is entirely unfair for us to take that for granted.
Just to change the subject slightly, and thanks to all for their comments, here is an old review that I came across from USA Today from June 99. Jim Healey certainly hit the nail on the head. =================================================
This is James R. Healey's USA TODAY column, which appeared June 4, 1999.
Lincoln crafts unbelievable LS
GEYSERVILLE, Calif. - The thunderous cough of a modified, carbureted Detroit V-8 swept through the tunnel of trees, an overture.
Moments later, a 1970s Chevrolet appeared in the rearview mirror. The rate at which it filled the mirrors of the 2000-model Lincoln LS made it clear that the Chevy driver meant to overpower those in his way.
Two-lane blacktop, with unforgiving trees tight on the shoulders. No straightaway more than a few car lengths. Time to see if LS could do what Lincolns can't: go fast gracefully when the road kinks.
Then came a true 15-mph corner. Whump went the left front suspension as LS' weight transferred there, compressing everything compressible - spring, shock absorber, all the give in the rubber bushings.
Tires howled, suspension bottomed out, but the LS nailed that corner at a speed not contemplated by the highway builders and stayed in its traffic lane doing so. The Chevy shrank in the Lincoln's mirrors.
A sublime moment and a most convincing episode in two days of prodding the smallest, lightest, hippest Lincoln into compromising situations to see how much of the bad, old Lincoln philosophy remains.
Almost none, thank the engineers.
Here's more evidence: Jam the brakes violently. LS does not pitch forward. It hunkers, settles, stops, as if sucked to a halt by the pavement.
Good brakes, yes. But the disciplined emergency behavior also is a product of careful chassis tuning and weight management. LS is well-balanced, thanks to its rear-wheel drive and extensive use of aluminum - hood, front fenders, engine, suspension parts, trunk lid. About 52% of the weight is over the front wheels, vs. 60% or more on some rivals. That allows Lincoln to put atypically big brakes on the back wheels and make them work harder for better balance and more control in fast stops.
But drama isn't necessary to appreciate LS. Run it over San Francisco bumps or across the Golden Gate Bridge. The leather seats cosset properly; the gauges and controls are big, legible, simple.
It has a much smoother ride than the Jaguar S-type, its corporate cousin. Both products of Ford Motor, they were designed simultaneously, sharing a platform, expertise, some parts. But they are far different cars. The Jag got the styling and more powerful engines, but the Lincoln is better overall for $11,000 less.
The LS also feels more comfortable and controllable than German rivals BMW and Audi howling through tight corners, swerving around sudden obstacles, accelerating like crazy.
Yep. A Lincoln that's more pleasing to drive than a BMW or an Audi. Marvelous heresy.
The V-6 LS handles a little more precisely than the V-8 because the smaller engine puts less weight over the front tires. Although the V-6 is a marginal 210 horsepower, it had enough low-speed pep to handle San Francisco's hills without burning out a clutch or killing the engine.
The V-8 LS hardly is cumbersome, though, and its brisk performance makes it preferable. Its liquid cornering, bump-sponging chassis, hot-rod engine and comfortable seats made easy work of a gravel road so bad it should have been closed.
The Lincoln LS, in fact, seems unbelievably good, though that's less complimentary than it sounds. The unbelievable part is that it's a Lincoln. If those guys have been sitting around on the talent to do something as fine as LS, why have they been turning out wretched, floaty, ugly barges, simultaneously whining about a lack of younger, import-savvy customers?
LS is the car Cadillac Catera wishes to be. Here's the stunner: LS is bigger than a BMW 5-series yet priced like a 3-series.
Gripes are few. Wood trim is fake; LS patrons deserve a higher level of integrity. Cup holders are subpar. Surface finishes inside are a tad lowbrow for a luxury sedan. The styling, though restrained for Lincoln, seems overdone around the grille.
Overriding those, LS signals new light shining at Ford Motor. Significant clues are two overdue features previously blocked by Ford-think:
World-class automatic transmission. It shifts with an exquisite blend of instant precision and delicate touch found almost nowhere else. Ford had rejected such behavior for years, prejudging it abrupt, unseemly, annoying. Separately switchable air conditioning. You decide whether to activate the air conditioning. It doesn't come on when you select certain vents, as in other Ford models. Those two developments, banal as they may seem, signal a revolutionary shift. Plus, the philosophical overhaul implicit in moving from a Continental/Town Car/Navigator mind-set to an LS attitude is so severe as to be frightening.
But then, danger can be fun. Burn the place down, Lincoln.
Comments
KarenS
Owner's Club Host
However a LS Mania 2-East Coast is a definite possibility if enough people are interested. Jim Rogers is enthusiastic about having more of the Mania events so he would like me to get an interest list together. Timing would probably be summertime. I'm thinking possibly Washington D.C. area, perhaps the old Summit Point racetrack. Seems to be convenient to Southeast and Northeast folks. If interested post it on the LLSOC Message Board under LS Mania 2001-East Coast and here so we can start planning.
Brian
Hector
I humbly apologize to the group for the miserable start of the mailing list. I assumed(I know, I know!) that there wouldn't be a high volume of emails since we had the Edmunds board so I thought I would save everyone the trouble of signing up for the mailing list by loading it from the newspaper list. Bad move!
For punishment I will not drive my LS for the entire weekend and watch old episodes of Starsky and Hutch.
Brian
Brian,don't be so hard on yourself. I actually enjoyed it for a while. Based on the # of emails I was getting, I thought I had suddenly become wildly popular. Not driving the LS for a whole weekend is punishment enough, but adding Starsky & Hutch reruns?-too much. Instead I suggest you rent the Mitsubishi Mirage that I had at LS Mania (because they didn't have the Ford Focus I had asked for-wanted to see if it was as good as they say)
I'm close to trading in my 2000 Acura TL to trade up as I want a more potent driving experience as well as as somewhat of a more upscale feel in a car and I'm trying to decide if I'm making a mistake.
Comments appreciated.
Thanks, RLM from Boston
We loyal forum members and LS owners are trying to provide input and energy to improve all three. So far, it's been very rewarding, due to the efforts of a few dedicated forum members and some knowledgeable risk-takers from Ford.
I'm not in complete agreement with jnowski's post ... I'm uncomfortable with his steroetyping dealers, even though his comments fit many dealers I've dealt with. I'd like to see dealers participate in this forum. To do so, I think we need to create an environment friendly to them.
I believe that the dealer personnel he described are an endangered species ... largely due to the power and reach of forums like this.
I'll now roll back my chair & don my helmet and goggles.
I'm trying to figure out what the difference between a email discussion list and the message board is. I would have thought people would be more comfortable posting on the board than sending an email but the avalanche of email that was generated on the first day of the email list seems to negate that theory plus what was being discussed hasn't really shown up on the board. Is having an email list worthwhile, as long as I start it out with no one in it and whoever(whomever?) wants to participate can opt-in? What are your thoughts? I don't want to create something that is a) a pain-in-the-neck or b)useless.
So as not to tie up the board please send me an email with your thoughts to postmaster@llsoc.com
I'll compile them and report back before I do anything.
Thanks for your opinions.
Brian
The 'official' communication channels don't always work. Often, there are some wise thoughts that aren't allowed entry into the official channel. This forum is an opportunity for them to be heard.
Dick
As the dealer is the first impression people get of Lincoln, so is the saleperson the first impression people get of the dealer. I still deal with salespeople that think the customer is just an idiot wanting to be ripped-off.
I've also dealt with salespeople who have an intimate knowledge of the car they are selling. That's what made me buy the LS at the dealer I bought it from. She knew what she was talking about, was obviously enthusiastic about the handling characteristics of the car, and didn't try the "Get a great deal if you buy it right now" garbage that is too common. The entire sales process was very low-key and not pressured. I was impressed with both the salesperson and the dealer's handling of the sale.
Since then I found the salesperson has moved on, but the dealer still handles the sales the same way. Would I use this dealer again? Sure. The owner also drives a LS. Now if I could convince them that stocking a couple of manuals would be good....
Brian
Thank you for your response. It is nice to know the real cause for the condensation. In my post regarding condensation, I was merely repeating what I had picked-up from following this board for the past year. Shortly after taking delivery on my LS8 sport a little over a year ago, I had read about several people on this board complaining about headlight condensation. Someone stated that they were sealed units and should never show condensation. Shortly after reading about this condition, I too noticed the problem (I intentionally started looking to see if it occurred). In both instances, the condensation would not clear up. My dealer was very cooperative in replacing these units.
This board has proven its usefulness time and time again. While I would have eventually noticed the condensation problem, the board sensitized me to the issue and brought about a quick resolution. Now, Dick Cupka once again provides clarity to issue. Thank you board participants, LLSOC club members, Edmunds, and the folks at Lincoln-Mercury for contributing to fantastic ownership experience!
a. slightly,
b. moderately,
c. seriously,
d. totally and completely
misunderstand the meaning of jnowski's post? It seemed to me that he was commenting on the "lack of enthusiasts" in the topic, and I was simply responding that the topic is not an enthusiast's topic, per se. What did I miss?
I wasn't taking you to task for commenting. Extending the discussion perhaps. Dealers do need to have enthusiasts as salespeople, at least for those cars that enthusiasts purchase. It is a delight, albeit an infrequent one, to experience a salesperson that seems to be as jazzed about the car as you are.
It is true that the "dealer boards" are not enthusiast topics, but should they be? Does the enthusiast audience generally demand higher levels of service and knowledge than the average car purchaser to make the experience worthwhile? Does a dealer who markets cars to enthusiasts care more than a dealer who doesn't or take in more money than a regular dealer? Don't know the answers. It would be interesting to know what the dealers think. I know it has long been an adversarial relationship between dealers and their customers, not to mention the factories. Not sure why it is so. I also wonder why American dealerships are more so this way than the Japanese or German luxury dealers, at least from the limited experience I've had with the latter.
Thanks,
Medphys
I was contacted by phone by a Gene Angelino of the NJ branch of LSM. Their business is chiefly in modifying Mark VIII's. They don't really have any kind of defined program for the LS yet. He told me that he was eager to work up an LS, but had been unable so far to get one into his shop to work on. He did say that he had "played" with an LS that,I think, belongs to a relative. He installed a 73mm MAF sensor and a lower temp thermostat. He said that this really made a difference but if I'm not mistaken, we were cautioned in an earlier post against using a lower temp thermostat in the LS.
If you log onto their site, www.lincolnmotorsport@maxrpm.com, the home page has a thumbnail of a modified LS. I had thought that this was a sketch, but Gene informed me that this was a real car. We agreed on our dislike for most ground effects packages, but he was quite adamant that this one really looks good. It will be available in about a month.
Also on their site are photos and a downloadable sound sample of the exhaust system that they use on the Marks. Gene indicated that this could easily be duplicated on an LS at substatially lower cost compared to the Borla.
He talked some about the Mark VIII's that they do. In his words, "we turn them into 2-ton Cobras". There are Marks running around with Triton V10's swapped in!
He acknowledged that the Mark is obviously dead for now and that most of the mods are being done by "kids". At this point, I tried to pursuade him that he should get in on the ground floor with the LS. I told him about LS Mania and how many enthusiasts there were who were interested in modifying their cars. (By now, there may have been more LS's sold than the entire Mark 8 model run). I told him that in light of the forthcoming T-Bird, planned "baby" LS and 2003 Mustang all using a version of the DEW98 platform, it would behoove him to get into this. Especially in the case of the Mustang, it looks like they will be going to the Lima V8. We all know what the Mustang aftermarket is like, don't we.
That's about it. I was a little disappointed in the lack of product, but he does seem interested in the LS. He asked me for the the LLSOC web address and he knows about Town Hall, so who knows?
Would anyone like to volunteer their car for them to experiment on:)? They do have a shop in Las Vegas also. If mine wasn't leased, I would definitely go for at least the exhaust system and maybe the MAF.
Art
jnowski wrote:
After visiting some of the forums where car salespeople reside, i.e. "inconsiderate
buyers" & "Confessions of a car salesman", I'm not so sure that I would want those
peoples comments on this forum. They seem to have a very negative view of any
buyer who tries to get a decent deal on an automobile, e.g. calling customers
"grinders", "moochers", etc. Their main interest seems to be in tactics useful in
manipulation of the customer, and maximization of their commission. Actual interest
in the car itself is limited to sales/commission potential and almost nothing else.
They are NOT car enthusiasts.
akirby is entirely correct, although I suppose that I could have made myself a little clearer. My comment was directed towards the only apparent, (to my knowlege), car salespeople on Edmunds. I agree with everyone else that there are excepions to my "stereotypical" comments, although like most everyone else, I have met very few.
I too, was very pleased with my LS buying experience. My salesman was very courteous, didn't play games, and we did it all through the internet. But, without implying anything bad or unproffessional, he was not at the "enthusiast" level of knowledge about the car. Which is just fine with me, I do my own research and only expect a pleasant buying experience from my salesperson anyway.
jjfrye: If by your comment you are implying that I am "lining my pockets" by requesting people pay for membership in my club you are way off-base and I'm insulted by your inference. Since I started LLSOC I have spent 60 hours, on average, per week, on the site. I have also spent a considerable sum of money getting the site up and running. I won't dignify your comment by telling you how much because it is meaningless to you and to this board.
If people don't want to pay for membership in the club, guess what? It's a free country and no one is forcing them. If anyone feels that I'm way off base then I'll quit and someone else can tackle all this work. I doubt anyone else out there is willing to sacrifice this much time for a car. And if people want me to stop posting, then I'll do that too. This is all a labor of love for me and my LS. I'm not doing it as an "opportunity to line my pockets".
Brian
The annual dues for the two major '94-'96 Chevy Impala SS Owner's Clubs--NAISSO and ISSCA--are each $40. ISSCA just starting printing their bi-monthly magazine. Very nice 24 page glossy b&w and color. Check out the NAISSO web site. These things take time and cost money. No one would or should do it for free. I don't think any of the people responsible for these groups is lining their pockets. They are providing a valuable service that people willingly pay for. LS owners should do same for their club. Count me in.
If poll responses are limited to dues-paying members, the validity of the results increases substantially.
Where do I send my $35.00?
Don't ask me how, but I've managed to get two different presentations of this forum. One has the user name at the beginning of each header and the other has the message number at the beginning. If you click on the user name at the beginning of the header you do not get a pop-up window - doing this gave me an email address for jjfrye with no other information. If you click on the user name at the end of the header (with the other format) you get a pop-up window with the normal town hall profile info. I think in one case I clicked on the Lincoln LS forum from the sign-in page top 10 list and the other I went through the subscription "check messages" feature. I'll see if I can reproduce it.
LS mailing list, about a mid-year new model.
As a pre-LS owner who is ready to convert over to
LS owner in anywhere from 0-6 months, I would
like to know if waiting some time gets me a car
that is 'X' times better?
BTW: For demographics, I am only considering the
manual transmission, and I just turned 33. I
think the buyer range that the LS covers is
amazing.
Also to follow up on the Dues subject, if you do
not have a paypal account, why not sign up and
give Brian the referral credit? I was a long time
member of the Eagle Talon (Club DSM) list. That
was free, but accepted donations, Todd Day did
tons of free work to help the community and he
is well respected and appreciated! I would stay
on LS club even becoming dues based, because
I realize the value this provides. Thanks Brian!
- Scott
I certainly agree with thomas_l. We can easily get used to getting all this info on the Internet for free. But someone has to work hard to create and maintain it. If the info on LLSOC is expected to be useful and timely, then we should expect to pay for it. Brian puts in a ridiculous amount of time into this effort and it is entirely unfair for us to take that for granted.
Joe
=================================================
This is James R. Healey's USA TODAY column, which appeared June 4, 1999.
Lincoln crafts unbelievable LS
GEYSERVILLE, Calif. - The thunderous cough of a modified, carbureted Detroit V-8 swept through the tunnel of trees, an overture.
Moments later, a 1970s Chevrolet appeared in the rearview mirror. The rate at which it filled the mirrors of the 2000-model Lincoln LS made it clear that the Chevy driver meant to overpower those in his way.
Two-lane blacktop, with unforgiving trees tight on the shoulders. No straightaway more than a few car lengths. Time to see if LS could do what Lincolns can't: go fast gracefully when the road kinks.
Then came a true 15-mph corner. Whump went the left front suspension as LS' weight transferred there, compressing everything compressible - spring, shock absorber, all the give in the rubber bushings.
Tires howled, suspension bottomed out, but the LS nailed that corner at a speed not contemplated by the highway builders and stayed in its traffic lane doing so. The Chevy shrank in the Lincoln's mirrors.
A sublime moment and a most convincing episode in two days of prodding the smallest, lightest, hippest Lincoln into compromising situations to see how much of the bad, old Lincoln philosophy remains.
Almost none, thank the engineers.
Here's more evidence: Jam the brakes violently. LS does not pitch forward. It hunkers, settles, stops, as if sucked to a halt by the pavement.
Good brakes, yes. But the disciplined emergency behavior also is a product of careful chassis tuning and weight management. LS is well-balanced, thanks to its rear-wheel drive and extensive use of aluminum - hood, front fenders, engine, suspension parts, trunk lid. About 52% of the weight is over the front wheels, vs. 60% or more on some rivals. That allows Lincoln to put atypically big brakes on the back wheels and make them work harder for better balance and more control in fast stops.
But drama isn't necessary to appreciate LS. Run it over San Francisco bumps or across the Golden Gate Bridge. The leather seats cosset properly; the gauges and controls are big, legible, simple.
It has a much smoother ride than the Jaguar S-type, its corporate cousin. Both products of Ford Motor, they were designed simultaneously, sharing a platform, expertise, some parts. But they are far different cars. The Jag got the styling and more powerful engines, but the Lincoln is better overall for $11,000 less.
The LS also feels more comfortable and controllable than German rivals BMW and Audi howling through tight corners, swerving around sudden obstacles, accelerating like crazy.
Yep. A Lincoln that's more pleasing to drive than a BMW or an Audi. Marvelous heresy.
The V-6 LS handles a little more precisely than the V-8 because the smaller engine puts less weight over the front tires. Although the V-6 is a marginal 210 horsepower, it had enough low-speed pep to handle San Francisco's hills without burning out a clutch or killing the engine.
The V-8 LS hardly is cumbersome, though, and its brisk performance makes it preferable. Its liquid cornering, bump-sponging chassis, hot-rod engine and comfortable seats made easy work of a gravel road so bad it should have been closed.
The Lincoln LS, in fact, seems unbelievably good, though that's less complimentary than it sounds. The unbelievable part is that it's a Lincoln. If those guys have been sitting around on the talent to do something as fine as LS, why have they been turning out wretched, floaty, ugly barges, simultaneously whining about a lack of younger, import-savvy customers?
LS is the car Cadillac Catera wishes to be. Here's the stunner: LS is bigger than a BMW 5-series yet priced like a 3-series.
Gripes are few. Wood trim is fake; LS patrons deserve a higher level of integrity. Cup holders are subpar. Surface finishes inside are a tad lowbrow for a luxury sedan. The styling, though restrained for Lincoln, seems overdone around the grille.
Overriding those, LS signals new light shining at Ford Motor. Significant clues are two overdue features previously blocked by Ford-think:
World-class automatic transmission. It shifts with an exquisite blend of instant precision and delicate touch found almost nowhere else. Ford had rejected such behavior for years, prejudging it abrupt, unseemly, annoying.
Separately switchable air conditioning. You decide whether to activate the air conditioning. It doesn't come on when you select certain vents, as in other Ford models.
Those two developments, banal as they may seem, signal a revolutionary shift. Plus, the philosophical overhaul implicit in moving from a Continental/Town Car/Navigator mind-set to an LS attitude is so severe as to be frightening.
But then, danger can be fun. Burn the place down, Lincoln.