A light bulb went on for me today regarding wheels. Many (or maybe all of you) probably know this already, or maybe I've got wrong info, but I'll mention it anyway. I'm sure reneblanc or stanny1 will know fer sure.
It started when I read the review akrus posted yesterday. One thing the reviewer noted is the fact that his LS came with 17" wheels but a 16" spare. I know this was the std equip on some Sports-package-equipped LS's. I think now it's a 17" mini-spare. I checked and I know that's what I've got on my manual LS, which BTW, I think is being shipped on a turtle's back at this moment. He also mentioned that he had seen this 'discrepancy' before - on F-150s equipped with off-road package with 17" wheels - the spare was a 16".
Anyway, this AM I pick up today's paper and read a Q/A in a car column (Tom and Ray Magliozzi - 'click and clack the Tappet Brothers' out of Boston) Coincidentally, the Q was from a guy who bought a used F-150. It had 17" wheels. One day, he had to put on the spare, drove 40 miles and his differential blew to bits. At this point, he noted that the spare was 16". The brothers confirmed that: "Using 2 different-sized wheels on the driven wheels of your car will ruin the differential."
So, back to the LS. Not being the brightest bulb in the closet, I would *not* have realized that if my LS had a 16" spare and I blew a rear tire, that putting this spare on and driving for very long may destroy my differential. Presumably there's some info posted in the car or owners manual about this.
If only my eyes were opened on this, that's OK. I don't mind looking dumb, and I'm not too old to learn something new. But if others who have 16" spares learn something here, that's great. And if all this is BS and folks with 16" spares have nothing to worry about, then I really look dumb. Oh well, I can do that:>)
You don't say much about how you drive or what you are looking to get out of an LS. I think you should take a thorough test drive in both an LS6 Sport auto and an LS8 Sport. That is the only way you'll know if you'll like one or the other better.
Having put over 25,000 miles on my '00 LS8 Sport and a couple thousand miles on my mom's '00 LS6 base non-Sport, I think there is a significant difference in acceleration, passing, etc. The LS is a heavy car. The V-6 is less powerful than the V-8. Adding the auto to the V-6 doesn't help. I didn't notice a real signficant difference in fuel economy if both are driven similiarly. There wasn't that much difference in terms of ride/handling.
If you want both acceleration & handling, then either LS8 Sport or LS6 Sport manual will work. You'll give up the former in any LS6 auto. But I think you'd "like" any LS. More a question of liking one "more".
George - good question. First - just because it's a 16" spare doesn't necessarily mean it's a different diameter. As long as the overall tire diameter is the same it really doesn't matter whether it's a 16" or 17". The problem occurs when they're different sizes. I didn't find the article you mentioned but I found an older one about a guy who has 4 different size tires (5 including the spare) on his truck. The problem is that if the rear tires are not the same diameter then the spider gears in the differential will be constantly turning instead of only turning for a few seconds at a time when negotiating a curve or turn. But since the mini-spares are only recommended for 50 miles or so I don't think that running it for 40 would tear up an otherwise good differential. Sounds like the previous owner had run it for a long time that way and the differential was about to explode anyway. So I think the point would be not to run different sized wheels for any extended period of time. 50 miles shouldn't be a problem.
The 16 inch spare was an interim measure to lower weight and still provide the balanced traction characteristics for IVD equipped vehicles until the 17 inch mini-spare was tooled and available.
The rolling circumference of the 16 and 17 full size wheels is very very close and is not a problem for the differential, traction control or IVD (Remember that it is not the size of the wheel but number of revolutions that is important for the differential and traction control).
The contact patch difference between the 16 mini-spare and three 17" sport wheels resulted in a traction difference in turns that IVD would pickup and attempt to compensate for. To prevent that we released the 16 wheel as a spare. We have now introduced a 17" mini-spare that provides the desired traction and weight save at the same time.
NHTSA finally posted the '01 LS crash test results. Check 'em out. Mostly great news. It received 5 stars (highest rating) for front impact on both driver and passenger. Received 4 stars for side impact front and 5 stars for side impact rear. These results nicely complement the IIHS offset test results that are done at slightly higher front impact speed.
I remember reading somewhere (I think in my 94 Camaro Z28 manual or my 90 T-Bird SC manual - both of which had ridiculously small spare tires) that the spare should not be mounted on the drive axle because of the size difference. The manual went on to say that if you suffer a failure on a drive tire, that you should put the spare on one of the front corners and use the front tire for the blown rear tire.
The hosting company is relocating their data center this weekend. Supposedly, there isn't going to be any disruption in services. But I've heard that before. So if you have any problems getting into LLSOC this weekend try again later. If you are still experiencing problems email me at: brian.gowing@gowing-associates.com (Note that this is an alternate email address, just in case)
What I would like to know is how after only 25,000 miles they needed new brakes and also need new tires? I've got 38,000 miles on my LS and I think I drive it hard and I still have 70% left on my brake pads and my tires sure aren't worn much after 24,000 miles on them.
Well, thanks for the quick responses, especially directly from Lincoln ala Dick Cupka. BTW, Dick, what is 'IVD'?
I'm glad to know this is not a problem for LSs.
Akrus' post above confirms that it can be a problem in general though. I've learned something today. And that's a good thing. Now I can turn my reamining functioning neurons back off again for some much-needed rest.
Most of you regulars know that I haven't been overly excited about the service I've received from Ford/Lincoln dealers. Compared to the service I received during the 4+ years that I owned my Camaro and GMC pickup, the 5 Ford/Lincoln dealerships in my area suck. Even though my friend is the service manager of my current dealership, I am not at all happy.
Today, my dad told me that he damaged the driver's side mirror on my mom's 96 Bonneville. He asked me if I would call around and get a price for a new one. I called my old GM dealership and talked to the parts Manager, who recognized my voice even though I haven't spoken to him or been in his shop for about a year now. He asked how things were, what I was up to, same old stuff that an old friend would bring up. When he got the price, he told me it was $180CDN, but would give it to me for $120CDN.
For those of you that recall my pre-Mania snowbank incident, I paid $2300CDN to have my LS repaired at my friend's Ford/Lincoln shop. Every part that was replaced on the car was priced at list. Sure everyone needs to make money, but on a large job such as this, surely there should have been some sort of reduction. I even paid full book hours and shop rates for the labour.
I believe strongly that vehicle ownership doesn't end with the car itself. The LS is an absolutely terrific car, but so was my T-Bird SC in it's day. Ford can build them well, but they definitely need to take a note of how other companies treat their customers. I swore off Ford products 5 years ago because of horrible dealer service. I said then that they would have to build one stunning vehicle in order for me to consider buying from them again. The LS is just the ticket, too bad the dealerships don't seem to care.
I've got 13 months left on my lease and if I were asked whether or not I would get another, I would have to say that I would definitely not. So many manufacturer's can build good cars that the after purchase experience matters alot when you're in a market like this.
For example, I understand that the '03 Maxima will be redesigned. It's supposed to have a 275 hp V6, 6-speed manual and rear wheel drive. On paper that sounds good to me and that car is only 1.5 years away. I've never owned foreign as my parents and brother work for domestic auto manufacturers. I try my best to buy domestic.
Lincoln, I'm willing to settle on the 'just adequate' power of the V6 manual, the lack of a 6th cog in the Getrag, the lack of interior storage, the shallow trunk, etc., but I am having a very difficult time with being treated like I own an Escort. Being that I've never owned a vehicle longer than 2 years and that I'm 33, I figure that Ford could be messing up a potentially profittable relationship.
Sorry to be ranting, but it's been building for quite some time and this afternoon's episode just did it for me.
I followed Brian's link to the January edition of the LS long-term review. Once again the Edmunds testers are bitching about the transmission. I did a quick scan through the past several months of their reviews; virtually every one contains a complaint about the tranny.
What continues to mystify me is that they seem to be totally and completely unaware of the reflash. Doesn't anyone from the Edmunds test team ever read this board? Don't they ever go to the NHTSA site and take a look at the TSB list? And, finally, if the transmission operation is so disturbing to these folks, why doesn't anyone EVER mention it to the service advisor when the car is in for an oil change?
I mean, good GRIEF. It appears that they're collectively stuck on griping about it without ever doing anything about it. One simple procedure should solve the problem, but no one seems to have enough snap to get it done.
I've had my '01 for five months now; I have the next-to-latest tranny software, and I have NO problems shifting into reverse (or any other gear, for that matter.) It works just fine.
If anyone from Edmunds happens to read this, will you please kindly suggest to your test team that they get the latest transmission software for their LS so they'll stop WHINING?
Jeez.
I said it would be a brief rant; hope this qualifies. I feel MUCH better now.
I sent an email to them a few months back when their reviewer (Hellwig, I think) lamented the 'fact' that a manual transmission is not available for the LS.
heyjewel - Since I just picked up my new LS V8 Sport on th 31st I decided to go out and check the spare. My vehicle was built on 11/16/00 (Thanks akirby!) and the spare tire is about 1" smaller in diameter that the 17" tires.
rcupka - Dick, when did they start using the 17" spare? Did I measure wrong? I'm better with a slide rule than a measuring tape.
I can give you a rough idea, the 17" mini spare was "late availability" for 2001s according to Edmunds. I've got it on mine, build date 1/29. If you've got a 'full-size' spare, it's a 16" rim.
But please note that akirby and rcupka have pointed out that the 16" spare for the LS does **not** present the problem I described. It is practically the same circumference as the 17 and that's what counts. It is A-OK to use it, just don't put 40,000 miles on with it on a rear wheel.
I hope my original post doesn't cause any undue alarm to anyone. Enjoy your LS, Hector!
Boy, not only have they worn the brakes out, but they ran the rubber off of it as well! I guess they've run their LS really hard to go through a set of tires and brakes. I'm at 12K miles, and my tires are in pretty good shape (even after autocrossing in Irvine). I'm bringing in my LS for an oil change on Monday, so I'll have them check on brake/tire wear while they've got it and report back on the findings.
I agree with giowa. You should drive both before you decide. Take a look on the LLSOC board under the Picture Gallery and compare the power and torque curves for the 3.0-L V6 and the 3.9-L V8.
You'll notice that over the measured range (from about 1500 RPM to 6000 RPM, the V8's torque curve is completely above the V6's maximum torque peak.
Unless you get a V6 manual to make up for some of that, I think you could easily end up wishing you'd waited until you could find a V8.
Once you experience that "V8 Lunge" with a touch of the accelerator at any speed, you won't like having less.
The latest Edmunds LS test states that the car is/was due for service at 25,000 miles. In an earlier report, however, they said that they have their LS on the heavy-duty service schedule, which dictates oil changes every 3k rather than 5k miles.
That being the case, their LS was due for service at 21k and 24k and NOT at 25k. Perhaps the reason that the oil-life sensor flashed the 3% warning is that it was changed at 18k, and nobody's bothered to keep up with the schedule.
For crying out loud--who's in charge over there? Doesn't anyone bother to even CHECK the oil?? Can't they trouble themselves with taking a moment to look at the records or press the monitor button? Maybe they're too busy riding the brake pedal...
There seems to be a slight lack of credibility here. I'd agree with jnowski, but "air" isn't the modifier that comes to mind. (I was thinking "pin". Get your minds outta the gutter.)
Two more things: My throttle is NOT overly sensitive, and my brakes are NOT spongy (and my car's aren't, either. )
After reading your January 2001 report on your long-term Lincoln LS, I have to wonder what exactly are you doing to this car? After 25,000 miles you have worn out the brakes and the tires. You have consistently complained about the transmission delay in shifting even though there has been a TSB for a reflash that would take care of that problem since the beginning of January. One of your editors complains that the car won't accelerate smoothly due to the throttle feel. I believe the same editor several months ago complained because the rear view mirror wasn't square enough to her liking. This same editor also complained about the brake pedal feel. Perhaps different shoes might help.
I have a 2000 LS-8 that has 37,000 miles on it. I have never experienced the abrupt throttle response that you encountered. Nor have I had an issue with the brake pedal feel. Please note that I drive the Ortega Highway daily to work for a round trip distance of 110 miles. I also autocross my car frequently and I consider myself an enthusiastic driver. My brakes were checked at 35,000 miles and were at only 30% wear. My tire tread has barely begun to show signs of wear. My rear view mirror is certainly squarer than that of a BMW. Stop whining about the transmission delay and get it fixed. Santa Monica LM seems to know a sucker when they see one. The service fee you paid for brake work sure seems more along the lines of a BMW dealership price than a Lincoln price. If you warped the rotors and they had to replace all four of them along with the brake pads, I could possibly see the cost. But if you did do all that damage in 25,000 miles someone must have been riding with one foot on the brake.
Maybe your collective editorial staff should stop being so prejudiced and short-sighted against an AMERICAN luxury sports sedan and stop being so peachy-keen about the German cars that seem to have quite a few shortcomings that don't ever seem to be mentioned by your editorial staff. I am proudly biased toward this piece of automotive history. I am the founder of the Lincoln LS Owners Club. You know us. You attended our event at LM Headquarters in Irvine. It is indeed interesting that no one in the club seems to have the same reaction to the car as your staff does. Perhaps crowing less about the message center trunk light message and paying more attention to driving the car and learning how its Formula 1-derived suspension handles roads that upset the likes of BMW and Mercedes would help. If you would be interested in learning how wrong you are about this car, I invite you to participate in one of our chat sessions on LLSOC. You name the date and time and I will arrange a discussion with our member community.
Sincerely, Brian Gowing Founder Lincoln LS Owners Club(LLSOC) www.llsoc.com
As I was afraid off, our fantastic "#1 rated by CNET" hosting service, whose name I won't mention (Readyhosting) has taken down LLSOC whilst they merrily move their data center. I do not know how long it will be down for, since it wasn't supposed to affect anyone. Not that anyone from there had the customer service courtesy to email the web site administrators that they were doing this.
I will be working on hosting LLSOC directly from a server at LLSOC HQ(sounds so much better than saying at the house) as soon as I get my wireless broadband access hooked up next week so if LLSOC has to be unavailable I will at least have caused it! Siiiiiigggghhhhhh.......
Brian, HERE HERE!!!!! I can't think of anyone who could say it better! Maybe if they proof read their articles for consistancy THEY would find the obvious. Even a Vette's tires last longer than 25k! And even Jethro knows that 3 don't cypher into 25, but it does into 24! Oh well, so much for unbiased "reporting."
How does the message center know that the oil has "compromised lubricating qualities?" Did Dick forget to tell us about the automatic oil analysis system in the LS? That type of thing needs to be in the OM! That system will make synthetic oil a MUST!
You voice some valid concerns. It's too bad that your LS experience has to be sullied by spotty dealer treatment. I couldn't agree with you more about the importance of the after sale experience. In my own case, that experience had me coming back for repeat sales on cars that were perhaps not my top choices.
From what we've seen here, I think we can agree that this varies all over the map. It's unfortunate that you seem to be on the short end. This is one area where Lincoln apparently has a way to go. I realize that the dealers are independent businesses, but there has to be some kind of way to reign in the "miscreants." Based on what I've read, my perception is that dealers of luxury-only brands seem to be more consistent in providing a level of service more commensurate with customer expectation. I'm not talking only about Lexus, etc. Despite what we might think of Cadillac's product line right now, their dealers generally seem to get consistent high marks for customer satisfaction in both sales and service practices. I'm not sure about this, but I think I read that Ford's future plans call for splitting off the Premier Automotive Group brands from the Ford and Mercury brands. This would have to help.
I don't remember all the details of your mishap, but weren't you free to get estimates from other collision repair shops? In your case I seem to recall that you paid for this out of pocket. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Just to show the other side of the coin, and certainly not to rub it in, I had dropped mine off Wed for seat heater repair. Although near closing time, they had a rental there in under 10 minutes. On Thurs, I received a call to pick the car up as they had to order the parts. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it and picked up Fri afternoon. I told the service writer that this was just the thing I was trying to avoid. I felt that with the rate at which these things are going, they should have stock on it. Instead of giving me some company line, he apologized and agreed with me. I was ready to leave with part order in hand, but they could not find my keys. By this time, I am mildly annoyed. It turns out that my car was in the shop and being being finished up. The service mgr. (now the owner's son) came out to tell me that they made a special effort to get the parts so I would not have to come back. They offrered to let me take back the rental car and return in about an hour or wait. The car was outside and ready to go in 15 minutes. I only bring this up to illustrate the contrast between dealers of the same brand.
Personally, I'd be sorry to lose you as fellow member of LLSOC.
Thanks for your reply and your understanding. Yes, you are correct in that I paid for the damage myself as I didn't think it was worth going through insurance. And you are correct in that I could have gone price shopping except for one detail, I probably would have. That detail is the fact that I was flying out to Los Angeles the next morning to join the rest of the LS maniacs. I still had a bunch of running around to do prior to leaving (getting the airline ticket, going to the bank, etc.) I just felt that there was no need to worry about my car since I was taking it to a Lincoln dealership and that my friend was the service manager there. Would you think that you should be able to feel comfortable about the car in that circumstance? Price isn't the issue for me at all. I don't mind paying a fair price if the job is of equal value. When I returned from my vacation, the car was 'ready'. Sure, the work was done, but the car wasn't even washed, it was absolutely filthy inside and out - and I don't mean just the floors, the seats had dust from the shop all over them.
This is not the only incident that has me upset with Ford. The fact that when I call service, I can't get in touch with any one. Not just at my current dealership, it seems to be a problem with all of them around here.
The fact that when I took the car in for service and told them that the headlight was fogging up, they wrote it off as 'problem not found' and didn't replace it. They didn't even test it or speak to me about it, they just looked at it. As soon as I washed the car, it fogged up. All they had to do was hose it down and drive it outside, yet it seemed that they just 'skirted' the issue.
At my old GM dealer, when I picked up my vehicle, they would go over everything and make sure it was to my satisfaction. Maybe I got lucky with that dealer and the other GM dealers may not go to that level for service, but this one did.
The fact that Lincoln has seen fit to change the maintenance schedule on our LS's (in Canada at least), yet haven't mailed anything to owner's indicating what is changed. For example, my car just went in for it's 50,000 km service. This service was to include a rad flush, yet when I questioned the service writer about it he informed me that Lincoln changed the schedule 'a couple of months ago', yet couldn't tell me when I should have the rad flushed. Many items have changed in the schedule, yet I have no idea as to how. Did the rad flush go to 40,000 km or did it go to 100,000 km? Have I missed other items that they now feel should be done prior to the 50,000km mark? Lincoln pays for my maintenance, but that's not the point, I believe firmly in following the scheduled maintenance plan laid out by the manufacturer of a vehicle. Always have.
I've had many other experiences that piss me off about the service, but I'm not going to bother getting into them here. Suffice it to say that I paid to own a Lincoln. That surely included paying them a premium for the 'Committment' which, at pre-sale, is touted by sales as being very good. Maybe it doesn't extend to the service bay, I just feel that it should.
Went to post office this AM and when I came out a couple of joggers were looking at my LS8. They said they didn't know Lincoln made neat cars like that. Asked me a bunch of questions. What a great way to start the day !
I sympathize with your problems. I'd ask you to email me the names of the dealers so I could put them on the crappy dealers list on LLSOC but the site is still down. How about posting them here and as soon as I, a)get the site back up or b)switch providers yet again, or c)buy my own server and do it myself, I will post them on LLSOC. Maybe printing that page out and showing it to them along with mentioning that the Lincoln folks look at both these sites, like some of the other people have done, will have them try to do some semblance of customer service.
I suspect these lousy dealers must be taking customer service classes from web hosting companies such as mine.
While I agree that test driving other LS models is important, if it happens that the car you mention fits your budget and a new V8 doesn't, don't be put off because you're not getting the fastest LS on the lot. The V6 auto is not a sluggish car by any means. Compare it to other cars in the $30k range. You'll find some that will accelerate faster, but none with the solid feel, cornering power, etc., etc. that make the LS an extraordinary car. Like Rene, I love my "V8 lunge", but for the 95% of the driving experience that is not acceleration, the LS6 is the same car. Scott
SO any poster can "say" they had a bad experience and a dealer makes the list. Assuming bad experience post is true it still could be an isolated experience. If i were you Brian I'd be setting some of the dues money aside for liability insurance. One bad experience out of a small sample of LS Owners doesn't mean a dealer is bad. In many cases the overall service of a specific dealer you mention could be recognized as excellent by the factory and their many other customers.
"227 of 229 Scary Moment by jmcmanus Feb 02, 2001 (04:48 pm) Today while driving to work I came into a curve on what looked like a slightly wet part of the road (it snowed over night and the roads were wet but salted). All of a sudden I was sliding at a 30 degree angle to the road. I tried to steer into the slide, fishtaled and ended up with my passenger side sliding at a 45 degree angle toward a telephone pole. All I could think to do was to try the breaks since steering just seemed to make it worse. The antilock came on and slowed me enough that I could straighten the car out and avoid the pole. This car handles great!"
Hmmmm, couldn't steer out of the skid due to FWD and "This car handles great."? I've been in a few FWD slids and the only way I found to get out is slowly lift off and let the car slow enough to regain control. The "beauty" of FWD is the car skids in a straight line. It is just "out of control" and you're along for the ride until you've slowed enough for the front wheels to regain traction. Apparently jmcmanus tried to control the situation as one would a RWD car! Maybe he should drive an LS!
From evertything I've read here, and after meeting many LS MANIACS, credibality isn't an issue. There isn't the vindictivness and nastiness that goes on other boards. I believe the fact that the Lincoln guys read this makes us sure to get our facts straight. It is totally unreasonable to think that a service rep would treat one person like a jerk and another like gold. People act the way they act. I have had good experiences at one dealership and LOUSY experiences a few miles away at the same company. It is generally the owners fault for not training their SERVICE reps to be SERVICE reps. Their JOB IS SERVICE! If Albert says his dealer stinks, that's good enough for me!!! If I lived there, I would avoid that place like the plague! jjfrye, if you notice, the good dealers far outnumber the bad ones! If their name on the bad dealers list causes them to improve, good. That is the ultimate purpose of the list, not to drive business away. It would be a terrible thing to lose Albert as a fellow LS MANIAC due to something as easily restified as dealer service! Albert, send their name to Brian and maybe together we can get your dealer to come around and give you the service that you deserve. Keep plugging and avoid those snow banks. BTW, just what is a "snow bank?" Is that where you guys store your snow for the next winter?
The options sound exactly as mine was configured. You are getting that car for well Under invoice. The V6 Duratec is great. 27,000 miles on mine, and acceleration has been more than adequate in any situation. You will get better gas mileage, probably lower insurance rates, and still get a great engine/chassis/car. To top it off, you will probably have much better overall resale value when you decide to sell or trade in, since you are getting this car at such a low price.
I also have the V6. Mine is an '00 non-sport with conv. package and CD changer in the trunk. My budget didn't allow for the V8, however I am totally satisfied with the 6. I won't win any stoplight races, but I will get around the corner faster! I can get to 100+ easier than 90% of the cars on the road anyway! If you're looking for a good bargin, buy it! Mine was $31k, bought last August. I also have a '96 Sable with the Duratech engine and that beauty has 100k trouble free miles.
I went to several places for a oil filter (Kragen, AutoZone, Pep Boys) none carried or could order so I ordered from fordpartsnetwork.com at $6.99. I believe someone here recommended fordpartsnetwork.com
It is probably in the manual and I know I have seen it in a post back in April/May, but what is the procedure for resetting the oil filter life in the message center?
Once the oil filter life message comes on and after you've changed the oil, press Reset and then press it again when the message center says to. That's all there is to it.
Also Torrie from fordpartsnetwork.com is now part of the Lincoln LS webring that I started. I'm working with him to see if the members can get an additional discount off of his already low prices. He's great to work with and is looking forward to working with LLSOC.
Contrary to what customers assume, nearly all sevice reps are paid on commission. Accordingly, they try to sell you sevices which you may not need. The same problem occurs for the service techs, the guys who do the work. They are paid a flat rate according to the services preformed, so there is plenty of incentive from them to find other problems. The dealer service problems we are incurring is a function of the old dealer mentality: maximise the revenue each time a customer walks thru the dealership.
Although Lincoln has tried to educate it dealers about the new Lincoln Customers and what we expect, the dealers just don't get it. When I went to Don Kott Lincoln in Carson, Ca. no less than 3 obnoxious (I'm being generous here) sales people tried to push their cards in my face. I left and ordered my LS elsewhere.
Until Lincoln takes a heavy hand to its dealers, we are all stuck trying to find an honest dealer. The best we can do now is tell the service writer no and find another dealer.
I once received a loaner LS with the Silver Wheels caked with so much dirt that no silver was visable and the interior including the seats, floor, and shifter areas were covered with Fritos Corn Chips!
Everything in life is subjective, dear jj. Dealer experience is indeed subjective. While one person may say that a dealer sucks, another may say that same dealer is great. In that case, that dealer wouldn't make the LLSOC list. I could publish a list of standards that dealers who receive a "banish them to watch Who wants to marry a millionaire reruns" designation need to meet but that too will be subjective.
So I rely and will continue to rely on the good judgement of the people who are members of LLSOC, today and in the future, to decide which dealers get the good dealer award and which dealer gets the lousy dealer award. Since I am not the one who decides on all the dealers there is no liability problem. This is no different than if you answered a dealer service survey and said that the dealer stunk. Your impression is what counts and nothing the dealer says can change that.
And while most dealers will care less if they are listed on LLSOC as bad dealers, the ones that "get" the LS and their clientele deserve to be brought to the memberships attention. If you look at the Registry dealer ranking and sort by the dealer ranking you will find that the majority of Lincoln dealers rate a 4 or 5. There are some that rated a 1. No one rated a 1 dealer a 5 somewhere else.
jdonnee brought the dealer list to his dealer and pointed out that he was on the good dealer list. He suggested ways for him to stay on that list and the dealer was very receptive. Every method a dealer has to be held accountable for the perception of customer service, I consider worthwhile. Maybe Lincoln has looked at the dealer ratings as well and perhaps checked their own surveys against what LLSOC shows to see if it matches.
Doues anyone have trouble getting into 1st in SST ? I can't seem to get lower than 2nd gear. I usually am in D4 or D5 and have seen 1st gear a couple of times in the 7 months I've had the car, but I'm wondering if maybe it IS in 1st and the display is wrong. Any previous posts on this?
Great reply Brian, and hope your site is up again soon. BTW, what do you use for numbers when you SOLO?
The only way to get into first with the SST is to accelerate away from a stop at >60% throttle, then you'll be able to get first as much as you want, until you stop again.
George - who'll be able to get into first easy in his V6/Getrag, if it ever Getshere.
Wait a minute. You mean I must start in 2nd, floor it and then it will down shift aotomatically to 1st, cranking my RPM's up to 5000, in a split second, and then at redline, I go back to 2nd? And that will be my best starting procedure for "out the hole" performance? Have you done this? How could you, you own a Chevy.
If you scan over past posts, going back a couple months or more, you'll find a lot of discussion about the exact details of how the SST shifting works.
In summary, If you stop, while in SST mode, it automatically shifts to 2nd, and will normally start in 2nd if you are still in SST mode (In automatic mode, it always starts in 1st). However, in SST mode when you give more than 60% full throttle, it will then downshift to 1st, and it will STAY in first until you either shift it up or stop again. After a downshift to 1st, you can manually shift between all five gears, as long as you are not going too fast for allowable engine RPMs after downshifts, and as long as you don't stop.
your posts for a long time, and, despite my desire for cars like A6, GS300, TL-S and others, I am actually impressed with your comments (and your civility) about the LS...taking it one step further, a few questions (what else am I good for, but questions, eh?). 1. Would you buy the next generation LS, why or why not? 2. What are your specific complaints about the car? 3. Has the car performed like you hoped it would? 4. Would you do anything different with your next purchase? 5. What do you like best about the car? 6. Are the seats comfortable for long drives? 7. If Ford called you to survey your opinion, what would you tell them?
1. The LS I've got is great, but if they came out with a V-8 manual with interior bits that didn't fall off and paint that didn't look like it was put on with a roller, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
2. Other than the above ("value engineered" approaches to fastening parts to the car, finish quality), I really don't have much to complain about. I'd like folding side mirrors, sun visors with extensions, a turn signal "feel" that's better. . .but all these are nits, given the rest of the car.
3. Better. I bought this car for handling, and I got it in spades. I rode a motorcycle for the first five years I had a drivers license, and went from that to an MGB, a 240Z, a tricked-out Datsun 510, a couple of Miatas and an Eagle Vision. This car will run circles around all of them except maybe the Miata, but it was slower and a lot less comfortable.
4. See #1. If they make the LS better, I'll buy one. If they don't, in 3 or 5 years I'll look around to see what's available. Who knows? If the GS300 had a manual, or the 540 wasn't so pricey, I might have bought them last year. But they didn't/weren't, so here I am.
6. Yes, but it's all relative. I once rode a 160cc motorcycle 550 miles in one day, so EVERYTHING else is a step up. Seriously, the seats are great. I run 900 mile days from time to time, and this car does well.
7. Exactly the same. If you've followed this board for any time at all, you may have gathered that what I am most likely to do is call a spade a M-F shovel. Facts are facts, and opinions are not to be sugar coated.
Thanks for a provocative posting.
I'm sure we'll be reading a number of interesting responses.
I'll take a crack at your questions if you'll promise to remember how much you paid for the answers.
1. If it's an evolution of the current car (same basic concept with improvements), I'd buy the next one in a second. The '04/'05 model is, right now, at the top of my "wish" list.
2. The Sport stereo is inadequate, the console storage compartment needs to be bigger, the digital phone/RESCU replacement should've been available, and I'd like about 20% more power.
3. Yes, all things considered. Handling is just superb; the car is great to drive, with a very solid feel; fit and finish is very good. As an American sedan, it's a revelation.
4. Not really. Given what was available at the time of my purchase, I got almost exactly what I wanted because I ordered mine, and the buying experience was made absolutely painless by an outstanding salesman.
5. See #3. It just feels GREAT on the road.
6. I've had mine for 5 months and the longest trip was only 80 miles one way, so I can't really answer this one. The seats are extremely comfortable for daily commuter driving, and the tilt & telescope wheel and multi-adjustable seats mean I can find a perfect driving position with no trouble at all. I'm scheduled for about a 500-mile round trip next weekend, so I'll know more then.
7. I filled out the survey that was mailed to me, and said that virtually everything was great. The Lincoln folks have produced a really outstanding car.
Sorry about that. My tone was more incredulous of the procedure than questioning your veracity. I saw in your profile that you own a Chevy...that's why I said that. I appreciate your advice. I also revisited the discussion, back a few weeks, and found the extensive and clear explanation. Went out and tried it and now ...well, all is well.
1. Would you buy the next generation LS, why or why not?
Yes as long as they added more power(too much Tim Allen, sorry) or if they added a manual trans. to the V-8 (there's only so much ribbing you can take from the V-6 manual folks ). Getting rid of the fake wood trim and replacing it with a carbon fiber treatment or putting real wood would help. I'm assuming you mean by next generation, the next major redesign, not just the freshening up they are doing for 2002/3 models.
2. What are your specific complaints about the car?
Fake wood trim, lack of console space, the cup holders. A small nit but no under-hood light.
3. Has the car performed like you hoped it would?
Actually better. I didn't expect to fall in love with a car again. But I did. The handling is phenomenal, truly world-class. Better than the BMWs I test drove. Power is about what I expected, less than what I had hoped for. My build quality is above what I expected from an American car company.
4. Would you do anything different with your next purchase?
I would get the Sport package in pearlescent white and the sunroof.
5. What do you like best about the car?
Handling above all else. Feel of quiet competence when driving at speed. The feeling that I'm driving a thoroughbred grand touring car. The smile that comes over my face every time I make an excuse to drive somewhere in it.
6. Are the seats comfortable for long drives?
Absolutely. I drive 110 miles each day to work. I've taken it on a 500 mile trip and I have never felt sore getting out of the car. Personally I would have liked a little more lateral support on the seat cushion but I have never felt like I was sliding around on the stock seats either.
7. If Ford called you to survey your opinion, what would you tell them?
The same things that I've mentioned and they have called. Actually four times within the first four months. I was quite surprised and pleased that Lincoln would make this much effort to getting customer feedback. And, as far as I know, they are the only car company that has their engineers actively involved in forums such as these.
Be warned. This car can and will get under your skin. As un-emotional a decision as you try to make, once you take the first hard turn in the LS and you find you feel like Mario Andretti and you look in the mirror wondering why your face hurts so much and it's because you're smiling you'll know.
Brian(who hopes to be the first to welcome marsha7 to the LS family)
Comments
It started when I read the review akrus posted yesterday. One thing the reviewer noted is the fact that his LS came with 17" wheels but a 16" spare. I know this was the std equip on some Sports-package-equipped LS's. I think now it's a 17" mini-spare. I checked and I know that's what I've got on my manual LS, which BTW, I think is being shipped on a turtle's back at this moment. He also mentioned that he had seen this 'discrepancy' before - on F-150s equipped with off-road package with 17" wheels - the spare was a 16".
Anyway, this AM I pick up today's paper and read a Q/A in a car column (Tom and Ray Magliozzi - 'click and clack the Tappet Brothers' out of Boston) Coincidentally, the Q was from a guy who bought a used F-150. It had 17" wheels. One day, he had to put on the spare, drove 40 miles and his differential blew to bits. At this point, he noted that the spare was 16". The brothers confirmed that:
"Using 2 different-sized wheels on the driven wheels of your car will ruin the differential."
So, back to the LS. Not being the brightest bulb in the closet, I would *not* have realized that if my LS had a 16" spare and I blew a rear tire, that putting this spare on and driving for very long may destroy my differential. Presumably there's some info posted in the car or owners manual about this.
If only my eyes were opened on this, that's OK. I don't mind looking dumb, and I'm not too old to learn something new. But if others who have 16" spares learn something here, that's great. And if all this is BS and folks with 16" spares have nothing to worry about, then I really look dumb. Oh well, I can do that:>)
- George
Having put over 25,000 miles on my '00 LS8 Sport and a couple thousand miles on my mom's '00 LS6 base non-Sport, I think there is a significant difference in acceleration, passing, etc. The LS is a heavy car. The V-6 is less powerful than the V-8. Adding the auto to the V-6 doesn't help. I didn't notice a real signficant difference in fuel economy if both are driven similiarly. There wasn't that much difference in terms of ride/handling.
If you want both acceleration & handling, then either LS8 Sport or LS6 Sport manual will work. You'll give up the former in any LS6 auto. But I think you'd "like" any LS. More a question of liking one "more".
First - just because it's a 16" spare doesn't necessarily mean it's a different diameter. As long as the overall tire diameter is the same it really doesn't matter whether it's a 16" or 17". The problem occurs when they're different sizes. I didn't find the article you mentioned but I found an older one about a guy who has 4 different size tires (5 including the spare) on his truck. The problem is that if the rear tires are not the same diameter then the spider gears in the differential will be constantly turning instead of only turning for a few seconds at a time when negotiating a curve or turn. But since the mini-spares are only recommended for 50 miles or so I don't think that running it for 40 would tear up an otherwise good differential. Sounds like the previous owner had run it for a long time that way and the differential was about to explode anyway. So I think the point would be not to run different sized wheels for any extended period of time. 50 miles shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks for the warning.
The rolling circumference of the 16 and 17 full size wheels is very very close and is not a problem for the differential, traction control or IVD (Remember that it is not the size of the wheel but number of revolutions that is important for the differential and traction control).
The contact patch difference between the 16 mini-spare and three 17" sport wheels resulted in a traction difference in turns that IVD would pickup and attempt to compensate for. To prevent that
we released the 16 wheel as a spare. We have now introduced a 17" mini-spare that provides the desired traction and weight save at the same time.
Dick
I remember reading somewhere (I think in my 94 Camaro Z28 manual or my 90 T-Bird SC manual - both of which had ridiculously small spare tires) that the spare should not be mounted on the drive axle because of the size difference. The manual went on to say that if you suffer a failure on a drive tire, that you should put the spare on one of the front corners and use the front tire for the blown rear tire.
Thanks,
Brian
What I would like to know is how after only 25,000 miles they needed new brakes and also need new tires? I've got 38,000 miles on my LS and I think I drive it hard and I still have 70% left on my brake pads and my tires sure aren't worn much after 24,000 miles on them.
I'm glad to know this is not a problem for LSs.
Akrus' post above confirms that it can be a problem in general though. I've learned something today. And that's a good thing. Now I can turn my reamining functioning neurons back off again for some much-needed rest.
George
Today, my dad told me that he damaged the driver's side mirror on my mom's 96 Bonneville. He asked me if I would call around and get a price for a new one. I called my old GM dealership and talked to the parts Manager, who recognized my voice even though I haven't spoken to him or been in his shop for about a year now. He asked how things were, what I was up to, same old stuff that an old friend would bring up. When he got the price, he told me it was $180CDN, but would give it to me for $120CDN.
For those of you that recall my pre-Mania snowbank incident, I paid $2300CDN to have my LS repaired at my friend's Ford/Lincoln shop. Every part that was replaced on the car was priced at list. Sure everyone needs to make money, but on a large job such as this, surely there should have been some sort of reduction. I even paid full book hours and shop rates for the labour.
I believe strongly that vehicle ownership doesn't end with the car itself. The LS is an absolutely terrific car, but so was my T-Bird SC in it's day. Ford can build them well, but they definitely need to take a note of how other companies treat their customers. I swore off Ford products 5 years ago because of horrible dealer service. I said then that they would have to build one stunning vehicle in order for me to consider buying from them again. The LS is just the ticket, too bad the dealerships don't seem to care.
I've got 13 months left on my lease and if I were asked whether or not I would get another, I would have to say that I would definitely not. So many manufacturer's can build good cars that the after purchase experience matters alot when you're in a market like this.
For example, I understand that the '03 Maxima will be redesigned. It's supposed to have a 275 hp V6, 6-speed manual and rear wheel drive. On paper that sounds good to me and that car is only 1.5 years away. I've never owned foreign as my parents and brother work for domestic auto manufacturers. I try my best to buy domestic.
Lincoln, I'm willing to settle on the 'just adequate' power of the V6 manual, the lack of a 6th cog in the Getrag, the lack of interior storage, the shallow trunk, etc., but I am having a very difficult time with being treated like I own an Escort. Being that I've never owned a vehicle longer than 2 years and that I'm 33, I figure that Ford could be messing up a potentially profittable relationship.
Sorry to be ranting, but it's been building for quite some time and this afternoon's episode just did it for me.
Albert
Mark
What continues to mystify me is that they seem to be totally and completely unaware of the reflash. Doesn't anyone from the Edmunds test team ever read this board? Don't they ever go to the NHTSA site and take a look at the TSB list? And, finally, if the transmission operation is so disturbing to these folks, why doesn't anyone EVER mention it to the service advisor when the car is in for an oil change?
I mean, good GRIEF. It appears that they're collectively stuck on griping about it without ever doing anything about it. One simple procedure should solve the problem, but no one seems to have enough snap to get it done.
I've had my '01 for five months now; I have the next-to-latest tranny software, and I have NO problems shifting into reverse (or any other gear, for that matter.) It works just fine.
If anyone from Edmunds happens to read this, will you please kindly suggest to your test team that they get the latest transmission software for their LS so they'll stop WHINING?
Jeez.
I said it would be a brief rant; hope this qualifies. I feel MUCH better now.
JohnnyLinc, a tiny bit frustrated...
I sent an email to them a few months back when their reviewer (Hellwig, I think) lamented the 'fact' that a manual transmission is not available for the LS.
rcupka - Dick, when did they start using the 17" spare? Did I measure wrong? I'm better with a slide rule than a measuring tape.
I can give you a rough idea, the 17" mini spare was "late availability" for 2001s according to Edmunds. I've got it on mine, build date 1/29. If you've got a 'full-size' spare, it's a 16" rim.
But please note that akirby and rcupka have pointed out that the 16" spare for the LS does **not** present the problem I described. It is practically the same circumference as the 17 and that's what counts. It is A-OK to use it, just don't put 40,000 miles on with it on a rear wheel.
I hope my original post doesn't cause any undue alarm to anyone. Enjoy your LS, Hector!
- George
You'll notice that over the measured range (from about 1500 RPM to 6000 RPM, the V8's torque curve is completely above the V6's maximum torque peak.
Unless you get a V6 manual to make up for some of that, I think you could easily end up wishing you'd waited until you could find a V8.
Once you experience that "V8 Lunge" with a touch of the accelerator at any speed, you won't like having less.
What a bunch of airheads!!!
That being the case, their LS was due for service at 21k and 24k and NOT at 25k. Perhaps the reason that the oil-life sensor flashed the 3% warning is that it was changed at 18k, and nobody's bothered to keep up with the schedule.
For crying out loud--who's in charge over there? Doesn't anyone bother to even CHECK the oil?? Can't they trouble themselves with taking a moment to look at the records or press the monitor button? Maybe they're too busy riding the brake pedal...
There seems to be a slight lack of credibility here. I'd agree with jnowski, but "air" isn't the modifier that comes to mind. (I was thinking "pin". Get your minds outta the gutter.)
Two more things: My throttle is NOT overly sensitive, and my brakes are NOT spongy (and my car's aren't, either.
Guess I need to learn to relax, huh?
After reading your January 2001 report on your long-term Lincoln LS, I have to wonder what exactly are you doing to this car? After 25,000 miles you have worn out the brakes and the tires. You have consistently complained about the transmission delay in shifting even though there has been a TSB for a reflash that would take care of that problem since the beginning of January. One of your editors complains that the car won't accelerate smoothly due to the throttle feel. I believe the same editor several months ago complained because the rear view mirror wasn't square enough to her liking. This same editor also complained about the brake pedal feel. Perhaps different shoes might help.
I have a 2000 LS-8 that has 37,000 miles on it. I have never experienced the abrupt throttle response that you encountered. Nor have I had an issue with the brake pedal feel. Please note that I drive the Ortega Highway daily to work for a round trip distance of 110 miles. I also autocross my car frequently and I consider myself an enthusiastic driver. My brakes were checked at 35,000 miles and were at only 30% wear. My tire tread has barely begun to show signs of wear. My rear view mirror is certainly squarer than that of a BMW. Stop whining about the transmission delay and get it fixed. Santa Monica LM seems to know a sucker when they see one. The service fee you paid for brake work sure seems more along the lines of a BMW dealership price than a Lincoln price. If you warped the rotors and they had to replace all four of them along with the brake pads, I could possibly see the cost. But if you did do all that damage in 25,000 miles someone must have been riding with one foot on the brake.
Maybe your collective editorial staff should stop being so prejudiced and short-sighted against an AMERICAN luxury sports sedan and stop being so peachy-keen about the German cars that seem to have quite a few shortcomings that don't ever seem to be mentioned by your editorial staff. I am proudly biased toward this piece of automotive history. I am the founder of the Lincoln LS Owners Club. You know us. You attended our event at LM Headquarters in Irvine. It is indeed interesting that no one in the club seems to have the same reaction to the car as your staff does. Perhaps crowing less about the message center trunk light message and paying more attention to driving the car and learning how its Formula 1-derived suspension handles roads that upset the likes of BMW and Mercedes would help. If you would be interested in learning how wrong you are about this car, I invite you to participate in one of our chat sessions on LLSOC. You name the date and time and I will arrange a discussion with our member community.
Sincerely,
Brian Gowing
Founder
Lincoln LS Owners Club(LLSOC)
www.llsoc.com
I will be working on hosting LLSOC directly from a server at LLSOC HQ(sounds so much better than saying at the house) as soon as I get my wireless broadband access hooked up next week so if LLSOC has to be unavailable I will at least have caused it! Siiiiiigggghhhhhh.......
Life of Brian theme song line 1
You voice some valid concerns. It's too bad that your LS experience has to be sullied by spotty dealer treatment. I couldn't agree with you more about the importance of the after sale experience. In my own case, that experience had me coming back for repeat sales on cars that were perhaps not my top choices.
From what we've seen here, I think we can agree that this varies all over the map. It's unfortunate that you seem to be on the short end. This is one area where Lincoln apparently has a way to go. I realize that the dealers are independent businesses, but there has to be some kind of way to reign in the "miscreants." Based on what I've read, my perception is that dealers of luxury-only brands seem to be more consistent in providing a level of service more commensurate with customer expectation. I'm not talking only about Lexus, etc. Despite what we might think of Cadillac's product line right now, their dealers generally seem to get consistent high marks for customer satisfaction in both sales and service practices. I'm not sure about this, but I think I read that Ford's future plans call for splitting off the Premier Automotive Group brands from the Ford and Mercury brands. This would have to help.
I don't remember all the details of your mishap, but weren't you free to get estimates from other collision repair shops? In your case I seem to recall that you paid for this out of pocket. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Just to show the other side of the coin, and certainly not to rub it in, I had dropped mine off Wed for seat heater repair. Although near closing time, they had a rental there in under 10 minutes. On Thurs, I received a call to pick the car up as they had to order the parts. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it and picked up Fri afternoon. I told the service writer that this was just the thing I was trying to avoid. I felt that with the rate at which these things are going, they should have stock on it. Instead of giving me some company line, he apologized and agreed with me. I was ready to leave with part order in hand, but they could not find my keys. By this time, I am mildly annoyed. It turns out that my car was in the shop and being being finished up. The service mgr. (now the owner's son) came out to tell me that they made a special effort to get the parts so I would not have to come back. They offrered to let me take back the rental car and return in about an hour or wait. The car was outside and ready to go in 15 minutes. I only bring this up to illustrate the contrast between dealers of the same brand.
Personally, I'd be sorry to lose you as fellow member of LLSOC.
Artie.
Thanks for your reply and your understanding. Yes, you are correct in that I paid for the damage myself as I didn't think it was worth going through insurance. And you are correct in that I could have gone price shopping except for one detail, I probably would have. That detail is the fact that I was flying out to Los Angeles the next morning to join the rest of the LS maniacs. I still had a bunch of running around to do prior to leaving (getting the airline ticket, going to the bank, etc.) I just felt that there was no need to worry about my car since I was taking it to a Lincoln dealership and that my friend was the service manager there. Would you think that you should be able to feel comfortable about the car in that circumstance? Price isn't the issue for me at all. I don't mind paying a fair price if the job is of equal value. When I returned from my vacation, the car was 'ready'. Sure, the work was done, but the car wasn't even washed, it was absolutely filthy inside and out - and I don't mean just the floors, the seats had dust from the shop all over them.
This is not the only incident that has me upset with Ford. The fact that when I call service, I can't get in touch with any one. Not just at my current dealership, it seems to be a problem with all of them around here.
The fact that when I took the car in for service and told them that the headlight was fogging up, they wrote it off as 'problem not found' and didn't replace it. They didn't even test it or speak to me about it, they just looked at it. As soon as I washed the car, it fogged up. All they had to do was hose it down and drive it outside, yet it seemed that they just 'skirted' the issue.
At my old GM dealer, when I picked up my vehicle, they would go over everything and make sure it was to my satisfaction. Maybe I got lucky with that dealer and the other GM dealers may not go to that level for service, but this one did.
The fact that Lincoln has seen fit to change the maintenance schedule on our LS's (in Canada at least), yet haven't mailed anything to owner's indicating what is changed. For example, my car just went in for it's 50,000 km service. This service was to include a rad flush, yet when I questioned the service writer about it he informed me that Lincoln changed the schedule 'a couple of months ago', yet couldn't tell me when I should have the rad flushed. Many items have changed in the schedule, yet I have no idea as to how. Did the rad flush go to 40,000 km or did it go to 100,000 km? Have I missed other items that they now feel should be done prior to the 50,000km mark? Lincoln pays for my maintenance, but that's not the point, I believe firmly in following the scheduled maintenance plan laid out by the manufacturer of a vehicle. Always have.
I've had many other experiences that piss me off about the service, but I'm not going to bother getting into them here. Suffice it to say that I paid to own a Lincoln. That surely included paying them a premium for the 'Committment' which, at pre-sale, is touted by sales as being very good. Maybe it doesn't extend to the service bay, I just feel that it should.
Thanks for putting up with this.
Albert
I sympathize with your problems. I'd ask you to email me the names of the dealers so I could put them on the crappy dealers list on LLSOC but the site is still down. How about posting them here and as soon as I, a)get the site back up or b)switch providers yet again, or c)buy my own server and do it myself, I will post them on LLSOC. Maybe printing that page out and showing it to them along with mentioning that the Lincoln folks look at both these sites, like some of the other people have done, will have them try to do some semblance of customer service.
I suspect these lousy dealers must be taking customer service classes from web hosting companies such as mine.
Brian
Scott
PS Brian: re your Edmunds letter: And How!
customers.
Today while driving to work I came into a curve on what looked like a slightly wet part of the road (it snowed over night and the roads were wet but salted). All of a sudden I was sliding at a 30 degree angle to the road. I tried to steer into the slide, fishtaled and ended up with my passenger side sliding at a 45 degree angle toward a telephone pole. All I could think to do was to try the breaks since steering just seemed to make it worse. The antilock came on and slowed me enough that I could straighten the car out and avoid the pole. This car handles great!"
Hmmmm, couldn't steer out of the skid due to FWD and "This car handles great."? I've been in a few FWD slids and the only way I found to get out is slowly lift off and let the car slow enough to regain control. The "beauty" of FWD is the car skids in a straight line. It is just "out of control" and you're along for the ride until you've slowed enough for the front wheels to regain traction. Apparently jmcmanus tried to control the situation as one would a RWD car! Maybe he should drive an LS!
Albert, send their name to Brian and maybe together we can get your dealer to come around and give you the service that you deserve. Keep plugging and avoid those snow banks. BTW, just what is a "snow bank?" Is that where you guys store your snow for the next winter?
Michael
It is probably in the manual and I know I have seen it in a post back in April/May, but what is the procedure for resetting the oil filter life in the message center?
Also Torrie from fordpartsnetwork.com is now part of the Lincoln LS webring that I started. I'm working with him to see if the members can get an additional discount off of his already low prices. He's great to work with and is looking forward to working with LLSOC.
Brian
Brian
Although Lincoln has tried to educate it dealers about the new Lincoln Customers and what we expect, the dealers just don't get it. When I went to Don Kott Lincoln in Carson, Ca. no less than 3 obnoxious (I'm being generous here) sales people tried to push their cards in my face. I left and ordered my LS elsewhere.
Until Lincoln takes a heavy hand to its dealers, we are all stuck trying to find an honest dealer. The best we can do now is tell the service writer no and find another dealer.
I once received a loaner LS with the Silver Wheels caked with so much dirt that no silver was visable and the interior including the seats, floor, and shifter areas were covered with Fritos Corn Chips!
So I rely and will continue to rely on the good judgement of the people who are members of LLSOC, today and in the future, to decide which dealers get the good dealer award and which dealer gets the lousy dealer award. Since I am not the one who decides on all the dealers there is no liability problem. This is no different than if you answered a dealer service survey and said that the dealer stunk. Your impression is what counts and nothing the dealer says can change that.
And while most dealers will care less if they are listed on LLSOC as bad dealers, the ones that "get" the LS and their clientele deserve to be brought to the memberships attention. If you look at the Registry dealer ranking and sort by the dealer ranking you will find that the majority of Lincoln dealers rate a 4 or 5. There are some that rated a 1. No one rated a 1 dealer a 5 somewhere else.
jdonnee brought the dealer list to his dealer and pointed out that he was on the good dealer list. He suggested ways for him to stay on that list and the dealer was very receptive. Every method a dealer has to be held accountable for the perception of customer service, I consider worthwhile. Maybe Lincoln has looked at the dealer ratings as well and perhaps checked their own surveys against what LLSOC shows to see if it matches.
Brian
Brian
Great reply Brian, and hope your site is up again soon. BTW, what do you use for numbers when you SOLO?
Medphys
George - who'll be able to get into first easy in his V6/Getrag, if it ever Getshere.
And that will be my best starting procedure for "out the hole" performance? Have you done this? How could you, you own a Chevy.
In summary, If you stop, while in SST mode, it automatically shifts to 2nd, and will normally start in 2nd if you are still in SST mode (In automatic mode, it always starts in 1st). However, in SST mode when you give more than 60% full throttle, it will then downshift to 1st, and it will STAY in first until you either shift it up or stop again. After a downshift to 1st, you can manually shift between all five gears, as long as you are not going too fast for allowable engine RPMs after downshifts, and as long as you don't stop.
1. Would you buy the next generation LS, why or why not?
2. What are your specific complaints about the car?
3. Has the car performed like you hoped it would?
4. Would you do anything different with your next purchase?
5. What do you like best about the car?
6. Are the seats comfortable for long drives?
7. If Ford called you to survey your opinion, what would you tell them?
I'm over here now.
My dad bought, er leased, an LS about 4 months ago and he's very happy with it - but that's all I know. :-)
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Automotive Message Boards
1. The LS I've got is great, but if they came out with a V-8 manual with interior bits that didn't fall off and paint that didn't look like it was put on with a roller, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
2. Other than the above ("value engineered" approaches to fastening parts to the car, finish quality), I really don't have much to complain about. I'd like folding side mirrors, sun visors with extensions, a turn signal "feel" that's better. . .but all these are nits, given the rest of the car.
3. Better. I bought this car for handling, and I got it in spades. I rode a motorcycle for the first five years I had a drivers license, and went from that to an MGB, a 240Z, a tricked-out Datsun 510, a couple of Miatas and an Eagle Vision. This car will run circles around all of them except maybe the Miata, but it was slower and a lot less comfortable.
4. See #1. If they make the LS better, I'll buy one. If they don't, in 3 or 5 years I'll look around to see what's available. Who knows? If the GS300 had a manual, or the 540 wasn't so pricey, I might have bought them last year. But they didn't/weren't, so here I am.
5. Handling, handling, handling, brakes, brakes, steering wheel controls.
6. Yes, but it's all relative. I once rode a 160cc motorcycle 550 miles in one day, so EVERYTHING else is a step up. Seriously, the seats are great. I run 900 mile days from time to time, and this car does well.
7. Exactly the same. If you've followed this board for any time at all, you may have gathered that what I am most likely to do is call a spade a M-F shovel. Facts are facts, and opinions are not to be sugar coated.
Thanks for a provocative posting.
I'm sure we'll be reading a number of interesting responses.
1. If it's an evolution of the current car (same basic concept with improvements), I'd buy the next one in a second. The '04/'05 model is, right now, at the top of my "wish" list.
2. The Sport stereo is inadequate, the console storage compartment needs to be bigger, the digital phone/RESCU replacement should've been available, and I'd like about 20% more power.
3. Yes, all things considered. Handling is just superb; the car is great to drive, with a very solid feel; fit and finish is very good. As an American sedan, it's a revelation.
4. Not really. Given what was available at the time of my purchase, I got almost exactly what I wanted because I ordered mine, and the buying experience was made absolutely painless by an outstanding salesman.
5. See #3. It just feels GREAT on the road.
6. I've had mine for 5 months and the longest trip was only 80 miles one way, so I can't really answer this one. The seats are extremely comfortable for daily commuter driving, and the tilt & telescope wheel and multi-adjustable seats mean I can find a perfect driving position with no trouble at all. I'm scheduled for about a 500-mile round trip next weekend, so I'll know more then.
7. I filled out the survey that was mailed to me, and said that virtually everything was great. The Lincoln folks have produced a really outstanding car.
Hope this helps.
Be safe,
medphys
1. Would you buy the next generation LS, why or why not?
Yes as long as they added more power(too much Tim Allen, sorry) or if they added a manual trans. to the V-8 (there's only so much ribbing you can take from the V-6 manual folks
2. What are your specific complaints about the car?
Fake wood trim, lack of console space, the cup holders. A small nit but no under-hood light.
3. Has the car performed like you hoped it would?
Actually better. I didn't expect to fall in love with a car again. But I did. The handling is phenomenal, truly world-class. Better than the BMWs I test drove. Power is about what I expected, less than what I had hoped for. My build quality is above what I expected from an American car company.
4. Would you do anything different with your next purchase?
I would get the Sport package in pearlescent white and the sunroof.
5. What do you like best about the car?
Handling above all else. Feel of quiet competence when driving at speed. The feeling that I'm driving a thoroughbred grand touring car. The smile that comes over my face every time I make an excuse to drive somewhere in it.
6. Are the seats comfortable for long drives?
Absolutely. I drive 110 miles each day to work. I've taken it on a 500 mile trip and I have never felt sore getting out of the car. Personally I would have liked a little more lateral support on the seat cushion but I have never felt like I was sliding around on the stock seats either.
7. If Ford called you to survey your opinion, what would you tell them?
The same things that I've mentioned and they have called. Actually four times within the first four months. I was quite surprised and pleased that Lincoln would make this much effort to getting customer feedback. And, as far as I know, they are the only car company that has their engineers actively involved in forums such as these.
Be warned. This car can and will get under your skin. As un-emotional a decision as you try to make, once you take the first hard turn in the LS and you find you feel like Mario Andretti and you look in the mirror wondering why your face hurts so much and it's because you're smiling you'll know.
Brian(who hopes to be the first to welcome marsha7 to the LS family)