I remember reading a note on this. If I remember correctly, there was a problem with some dashboards and the remedy was to use some form of cleaner (it was specified) and then apply some moisturizer. I don't remember where I read this, but perhaps in the LS Owners club or in a list of TSB's to dealers. If you can't find the actual directions, I would try a very good quality vinyl cleaner followed by a good quality vinyl dressing. I had a similar problem, used Vinylex and it cleared it up, but I did read the directions to dealers somewhere.
A discourse by Mark Hutchins to dealerships with a repetitious theme on American Luxury, Lincoln Premier Experience, Lincoln vision in re-defining promises of American Luxury to its customers. Short of importuning dealers, implementation of this strategy appears to be failing.
Your dealer must be right. My rear window failed a second time about 2 weeks ago. I called the service manager and he basically told me the same thing, alot of the cars are coming back for regulators and the part is on back-order. I told him mine were in the "up" position so I could wait until the part arrived. If I were you I would chew some butt out and have your dealer at least put the window up.n
Been years since I watched MASH re-runs but I believe Radar O'Reilley's home was Ottumwa, Iowa, about 65 miles diagonally SE of Des Moines, Iowa. (But then again, maybe it was either Oskaloosa or Osceola; both are also in the general vicinity.)
Wonder how bleak '02 will be for Lincoln. Navigator has fallen way behind Cadillac's gigantic SUV. Continental is dead. LS running on minor changes, if any. Blackwood a real odd niche market. Someone at Lincoln should be shot and sent to the Eastern Front!
Interesting to see that the Navigator beat out 79 other SUVs and trucks to take top honors in both the top SUV and top Truck categories. A Lincoln tops in product quality and customer handling? a Lincoln beating Mercedes, Lexus and BMW?....how can this possibly be?
08 August 2001
Lincoln Navigator Wins Satisfaction Award--Today AutoPacific presented the Lincoln Navigator with it's top award for Satisfaction in both the SUV and Total Truck categories. Auto Pacific sends surveys to all new vehicle customers who purchased during September through November of last year. The criteria is based on 1) product quality, 2) salesperson knowledge and 3) customer handling. Navigator competed against 79 other trucks, and our customers honored us with the highest rating beating out even newer entrants like BMW X5, Acura MDX and Lexus RX300.
I seem to remember the dashboard issue was mentioned a few months ago. The product that was recommended was "Black Magic" preservative, which is made by Westleys. I got the latest issue of Car&Driver magazine in the mail yesterday. In this issue is a short review of the new, "Butt-Fugly" Cadillac CTS. The car is very humble looking, but guess what ??? A five speed manual transmission is available. I guess the market isn't dead after all. One other thought regarding HP. I too, will always be tinkering with my rides, looking to make them a little better. Just look at the aftermarket that's out there for GM's two most famous "orphans", the Buick GN and the Impala SS. If there weren't "gearheads" out here buying the parts, I doubt there would be such a large number of companies willing to supply the goodies. Over and out...........
The recommended product was indeed Black Magic, and the bulletin I remember recommended light buffing with very fine Scotch Brite (white). I used Meguiars plastic & rubber protectant, sprayed sparingly on a towel and rubbed it out very thoroughly, but didn't use the Scotch Brite. It did not make the surface too shiny, and evened out the finish almost 100%.
Guess we'll have to wait for the SVT guys to do their magic. Anyone heard anything else since the SVT SC V8 test mule was spotted at a racetrack test session?
So how many of you aftermarket upgraders are expending a lot of time and effort on other key areas besides acceleration like braking and handling? Seems like all the action is in the power arena. You could buy all sorts of stuff to attempt to improve braking and handling. But most of you don't seem to be doing that. So much focus on increasing output. That seems to be a strong statement that power or power delivery thru the drivetrain is the major shortcoming of the LS. One Lincoln does need to address in a timely manner.
Me, I prefer stock. Why buy something and then spend so much time, effort, and money making it "better"? If it wasn't good enough, I would've bought something else that was "better". And I don't like the thought of messing up warranties, causing problems in other areas, ruining emission controls, increasing noise levels dramatically, or degrading fuel economy. All too often side effects of the aftermarket effort to "improve".
You guys are incredible. A year ago the LS was wonderful, a great value. An american made BMW for $10K less. Now all of a sudden it's trash, second rate, way behind the competition. The car hasn't changed. The competition (true competition - $30+ RWD luxury sport sedans, not Sentras) hasn't changed that much, has it? I don't shop for vehicles based on 0-60 acceleration figures. It's the total package. I think what we're seeing is a lot of potential in the LS that hasn't been fully developed, and we're getting impatient.
We've been promised more power next year. I think it must be in conjunction with the Jag engine upgrade which is increasing displacement to 3.3 and 4.3. That would make sense to me since the block castings are the same. So the questions is whether the LS will get the larger displacement without VVT (or a milder, cheaper, detuned version of VVT) or keep the current displacement and add the VVT. Sounds like keeping the same blocks without VVT would be the cheaper of the two since you keep the same castings and don't add the cost of VVT. I still think Lincoln could market a SVT or special version with the Jag engine without infringing on the corporate hierarchy. Jag already has plans to SC both the V6 and V8 for the X-type and/or S-type anyway, so there's always that option.
I say give Lincoln a chance to catch up - they acknowledged that they're a year behind. In the meantime just remember that things are not usually as bad (or as good) as they seem to be. Let's just hope the 2005 redesign doesn't look like the new CTS!
So there really is an Ottumwa, Iowa? Geez, here I thought they made that town up Have to get out and see the country more.
Love to drive to Dearborn, seeing the country along the way, and gave some serious thought about it, but I've used up quite a bit of my puny vacation hours for the club stuff already. It would take two full days from the left coast to Dearborn with a wife and a 4 year-old, which while the LS is great for long distances, doesn't bode well for family harmony . If it was just me I would do it in a heartbeat.
I am also shocked to be agreeing with you. When we bought our LS the acceleration must have been good, or at least acceptable, or we wouldn't have bought it. So the only thing that has changed over time is perception. Half a second or even a second quicker 0-60 is great for bragging rights but wouldn't sway me to buy a new one. Not that I don't want it, but in the overall scheme it's not worth that much. That plus a lot of other improvements would sway me, but I'm not looking until at least the 2005 MY.
Think of how many V6 Autos have been sold. I bet that at least 95% of buyers are happy with the acceleration. Those that want more will always want more, no matter what.
If you guys want to see what the new shocks that will be installed on the project car look like, here's a link to the picture on Moriss Dampers site. Forgive the ugly mug shot of me. The shocks look way better!
Without trying to start a long, drawn out discussion about modifications, I'll toss in my $.02 worth. Most cars are designed for the masses. Their target might be a specific segment of the masses, but nontheless it's the masses. There are those of us, who, for whatever the reason, want our cars to be a little unique from all of the other similar units of whatever car we have chosen. This is where the aftermarket lives. I realize that many more people lease their cars today than in the past. Therefore, due to contractual obligation they can't or won't modify a car that will be gone in 12, 24, or 36 months. Those of us such as myself, who purchase rather than lease, tend to work with the aftermarket to either upgrade the performance or alter in some way the appearance of our car to suit our desires. I agree that Detroit has come a long way in providing a good platform to enjoy some spirited driving with. However, they also have cut back on the number of options that used to allow you to tailor your car to your specific needs and/or wants. The aftermarket has stepped up to the plate with a lot of fairly sophisticated equipment that can fill that gap. That's the way that I see the situation, and if you don't want to modify your car, that's your choice. This America's a wonderful country, isn't it ?? One more thought in closing. As far back as the mid 1970's, I was making modifications to my cars in order to improve cornering capability, as well as the generally accepted HP increases. Back then, however, the aftermarket was very limited in suspension upgrades. It was definitely "cut and try", or "shadetree engineering" at its finest, but it was also a "character builder". Once again, over and out......
There has been plenty of effort expended on searching out handling improvements for the LS, albiet, they're difficult to come by. It is difficult to really find items that improve the already impressive handling prowess of the LS . . . it was that well engineered from the get go. That said, it IS possible. Increasing wheel size is one (without adding to unsprung weight). Shocks are another area, and Brain/LLSOC has documented this effort in the LLSOC Lincoln Synergy magazine. Modifications in the name of handling improvement come at a greater cost than the performance items discussed thus far, and consequently, they will only appeal to a real enthusiast.
My discussion has completely ignored the effort to enhance the outward appearance of the LS, as there are plenty of body panel and taillight lense kits available. People will always want to customize their ride to suit their personalities. This is not to say that the LS "missed the mark", on the contrary, I think it is still the value leader in the sport sedan segment, maybe just not by as wide a margin as it used to have.
I completely agree with your comment regarding wheels. When I decided to use the OEM wheels for winter use, I purchased a set of aftermarket rims, and I made sure that they were a litte wider that stock. The change was noticible. I also wanted to lower the car using a set of Eibach coils. I hesitate, however, to do this, because the rear camber settings are not equal between right and left, and since they're not adjustable (ugghh!!) I don't want to chance exaggerating a questionable situation. If not for this, the coils would have been in a long time ago.
You complacent guys should be happy that a lot of us never seem to be satisfied. I have a saying: If most people were always satisfied with the status quo, we'd still be crapping in outhouses.
Wow - so many topics! Going back to the post about the Buick GN and Impala SS and the popularity of the cars, GM really blew it when they closed their Arlington, TX RWD plant and lost all their fun cars. They gave up the police market and the true enthusiast market in one stroke. No wonder their market share is dropping in cars - they are all FWD appliances. In the automotive spectrum, GM is on one end and BMW is on the other. GM engineers must be on Prozac and saltpeter. How frustrating now that bean counters are actually designing cars. Or is it robots! NO PASSION. Yes, the factories are really distant from the 60's when you could order your GTO with the sound deadening deleted for weight saving. Assembly line customization is gone, and that's where the least expensive and best mods can be had. In the press is an article about how Nissan is developing a system that will let you order a car and have it in three weeks if it's a U.S. made model. Probably no aftermarket items but it could be possible in the future. I don't see why manufacturers could not stock, for example, a Borla system that could be factory installed at an additional "option" price. It's been done before. The assembly process is the same as the stock system so I don't think it would be a big deal. To get custom "options" now, we let the dealer choose what's available and their choices are sometimes in poor taste and tremendously overpriced. LM could always publish a "Performance Catalog" like Nissan and others do. My idea of LS aftermarket mods aim squarely at performance. The 2002 LS, especially the V-6, is a rolling admission that first year development time restraints resulted in less than optimum intake and exhaust parameters. So the Borla and intake mods are really recommended. In the case of the Borla, it's actually better than just replacing the mufflers with 2002 models. Borla addressed not only the need for lower restriction mufflers, but increased the pipe diameter, bends, lack of X-box, and finally made the tips chrome and visible. I can't wait to put mine on. Other mods at the top of the list include an LSD pumpkin. What good is power if you can't put it on the ground, especially in slolom type power slides. Right now I'm afraid to power out of sharp hard turns for fear of losing rear traction as one wheel inevitably starts its independent spin. I'm not hot on suspension mods as I can't utilize the handling potential of the car yet, especially without LSD. I'm only interested in wheels if the offset is dialed in for the LS and there is a significant weight savings. An inch wider or larger in diameter does not make IMHO a significant performance improvement for the huge investment required. Finally, I am on a 3 year Red Carpet so I don't want to modify the car so much I can't trade it in for a 2003 or order a 2004 if it has "the right stuff" (praying for VVT, six-speed and LSD). I just need a little more power. Yesterday a 60 year old guy in a newer Avalon tangled with me at a series of stoplights and while I got off the line faster, he was doing better as I went into third. Of course, we were both exceeding the 45 mph limit but it was fun. Too bad there were no corners as part of the run. Oh, I had my 10 and 12 year old sons as ballast and he was alone. That was hurting my power to weight ratio. I think this guy read my license plate frame that reads "Not Your Father's Lincoln" on top and "LS Five Speed Manual" on the bottom and took offense.
akirby (4063): It's all in the details - maybe with a few of us the honeymoon is over? Maybe the difference between some that were pumped at first and have had less than desireable experience over time versus the few that found the Car Of Their Dreams in the LS? My apologies for highlighting some negatives lately.
giowa (4062): I think it's just personal preference. Some people just enjoy tinkering and personalizing their cars. It happens that exhaust and intake mods are the easiest to do in many cases. Ditto with the sound system and appearance upgrades. With the lack of mechanical aftermarket stuff, there isn't much more to change outside of totally fabricating your mods.
slunar (4071): Actually I look at ROI. Time + dollars related to actual benefit. I won't waste time or money on something that will pick up 10 hp or add 0.1 G at the skid pad. It's incremental. On the other hand, when the 2.8L V6 in my Fiero sneezes, I will either go with a 3.8L S/C or Northstar. Big time and money investment with a proportional big payback in performance. Using your analogy, many of these minor upgrades are more like sawing an extra hole in the outhouse bench to double it's intake, not moving to indoor plumbing and flush toilets.
The Borla is probably not "cost effective" but I'll let you know if it and the airbox yields any improvement. That will probably be it, as I have already put in the K&N and Polk DX7's. Unless there is some "magic bullet" coming, I will stop there. Spoilers, wheels, window tinting is not on the menu right now. I would jump on the LSD though.
At the time I bought my LS, I had considered an A6 2.8, a 528i, a 300M, a Continental(blush)and even a used Seville. After trying them all, I concluded that the LS was a heckuva value - and the best car for me. The competition has gotten tougher but I do not regret my choice one bit.
The minor mods I have done (wud and tires) have enhanced my enjoyment of the car. Lincoln's offer to retrofit the wood wheel and shifter was appreciated. The ability to upgrade the transmission software to the latest version is a huge plus.
Overall, I enjoy the car more now than ever. Having said that, I will be expecting major improvements in the next product cycle. Slunar's outhouse analogy is right on.
Now, I would like to find that 60 year old in the Avalon and show him some LS tail lights. :-)
Sorry to hear the Avalon was tangling with you. The LS should have with a little more oomph kicked him to the curb. Now regarding those curbs, remember those curbs in the twisties will actually hurt LS unlike the cones;) Just remembering the good old time we all had in January. How about one a parking lot event like the one in LA in Texas? Central to everyone?
Actually, I thought you had a perfectly reasonable response. You think your C240 is a better value "for you", and that's something that nobody else can argue with.
Just read the 10/00 issue of Motor Trend, the MY 01 New Car issue. Think you'll see how much what you say is our "true" competion has changed. [However, I also think some AWD and FWD cars are true market competitors with the LS. They have changed, too.]
BMW 3 Series: "Stunning M3 debuts; 2.5L base 6 adds 15 hp; hotter 3.0L upline 6 replaces 2.8L; AWD option on sedan and wagons"
BMW 5 Series: "two new engine choices"
Lexus IS300: Completely new [now with manual tranny for MY 02]
MB C-Class: "Completely redesigned for '01... new chassis, two new engines, a 6M trans for the std C240"
Don't forget about the new 02 Jag X-type. And the 02 Altima shows what is happening at a level beneath the LS.
About the only car that has chanched slower than the LS is the Catera. And look what a non-player it is in the market!
...but who is this Gowling guy and what has he done with our president:)?
Akirby- you could have left it as "Sentra" To wit: preview of 2002 Sentra Spec V in 9/01 Car & Driver: Available with 6-speed manual, LSD, 215/45ZR-17 Contis, Rockford Fosgate stereo. 0-60 in high 6's, "coners with minmal body roll, is stable in transitional maneuvers, and turns in with real conviction." Estimated base price 17-18K.
I only consider one of the cars you mentioned to be true competitors to the LS and that's the 5-series. The others are much smaller vehicles that don't offer V8s. And don't start whining that their V6 is faster than the LS V8. We all know that the LS needs a power boost and it's coming next year. That's not to say that people won't cross shop those vehicles. Hey, I cross shopped a cougar and mustang before I bought my LS but that doesn't mean they are competitors. Audi A6, MB E-class, BMW 5-series (i don't see where the new V6 engines made that much difference - for $10K more they should be faster), Cadillac Catera/CTS (not much comp. here until they get a bigger engine), Lexus GS (ok, they did get a bigger V8). That's what I consider the competition. And I don't see much that has changed between them in the last two years. If Lincoln can (or will) get the power output in the 300+ range then it can compete with the A6 4.2 and 540i and GS430 in that elite class.
I can understand why some of you who have 2 year leases expiring might be disappointed that no major changes occured for 2002, but think of the position that Lincoln was in in 99. They had no idea if this car would even sell - a totally new car that was totally different from anything else in a new market segment. No business would commit big bucks to a project like that until they're sure they can sell them. I'm sure that's why they're a year behind where they wanted to be. It takes 2-3 years (or more) to make major changes to a vehicle - you can't just do it overnight. I'm also sure that Lincoln has to coordinate major changes with Jag since it's a shared platform. That may have more to do with the engine changes than anything else.
So let's stop whining about the competition and focus on the LS again.
that 76% of LSes sold in 2000 were leased vehicles. Of that number 90% of them were 3 year leases, which end in 2003 or thereabouts. So the next major upgrade to the LS coincides with the ending of the majority of purchaser leases. Sounds right to me. But then again the only way I could have afforded the LS was with a 5 year lease Can't wait until the lease company gets a load of the project car. Guess I'll have to buy it at the end of the lease.
Artie: Typical mispelling. Told you not to pay attention to the fat, bald guy!
My 3 year Red Carpet Leased expires in July, 2003, just in time to re-lease a 2003 or order a 2004 (I'll have to hitchhike for a couple of months). That should give LM sufficient time to "upgrade". Does anyone know when the first 2002's hit the dealers? I want to scope out the new airbox and take digi-pics. Of course, I will fully document the de-flowering of my existing virgin airbox for the sake of more CFM.
airwolf: Have to look. It isn't through Ford. It's through Wells Fargo and if I know them, I'm probably taking it through the nose, but the payments were tolerable and I was upside-down in my previous car so I didn't have a lot of bargaining room.
Sounds like a Mitsubishi deal where they flaunt a $99 payment on a new XYZ but don't mention the amount of that last payment (balloon). Join the club with your upside down equity Brian. I am paying an extra $100 each month for the Bonneville that went in for the LS. I won't even mention how bloody the deal on my Grand Marquis was ;-D. I went with leases (3 yr, 15k mi) to avoid that problem again. I am looking forward to the idea of "walking away" at the end of the leases if I choose. I think those of us that leased early (before the '01 models really got out in circulation) probably will be giving the bank a whipping on the residual. According to FMC, my LS will be worth just over $20k in April '03. Conversely, those folks wanting to lease now will not have as favorable a deal. Interestingly enough, the WSJ had an article on Monday about the used car market being flooded with lease returns. I read something to that effect about once month, but the lease deals keep coming.
I guess the part that really gets me, is what is going to happen AFTER the warranty period is over for my car. I bought my LS and plan to keep it, but am really afraid of the future of these windows. Am I going to have to put a $200 (a guess on cost) part in every six months?
Look at Kevin's situation... the dealer won't even secure a window in the upright position, so that his window isn't down 24/7 - and that is DURING the warranty period for a 2 year old car!
Is Lincoln going to recall these things or give us an warranty to repair for the life of the car?
My RR window is on its second failure - waiting on backordered parts... neither failure was preceeded by any warning (crunching) noises.
My LR window makes a crunching sound at the end of closing - Is this one going too?
Is the outside temp. a factor. My LS is not garaged and it seems funny that so many are having the crashes at the same time.
I have a 15-month old LS8 Sport and both RR/LR window regulators have failed. I'm concerned every time I use the 'global open' feature in fear that a window will get stuck open again. Well, my only recourse has been to convince friends to avoid the LS and it works, (2) friends have purchased Acura 3.2TL's instead of the LS, so at least I'm getting some satisfaction! Are you listening Lincoln - fix the problem or lose more sales...
Pointing out that the LS is falling seriously behind its competitors--including those priced a bit above it, those priced similarly, and now those below it--in areas like acceleration, safety equipment, etc. is NOT whining. It is focusing on the LS and the need, ASAP, to make the breed better.
Look how bleak '02 is for Lincoln. Navigator getting old, lots of competition, incl. a Cadillac that is creaming it in press comparisons. Continental dead; no replacement. Blackwood a niche player limited in sales; something like 5,000 units or so, maybe ten. Town Car soldiering on with no changes; a dinosaur marketed to the AARP crowd and heavily discounted. Only the LS is a fresh, current, competitive product. But it hasn't been updated during its three complete MYs
How much anyone want to bet me that Lincoln will have to offer serious subsidies, discounts, free option packages, rebates, etc. to move MY 02 metal? Sales might spike up on a car like LS if the deals are great. Then all those people will be locked into their 36 month leases. Many other buyers will move elsewhere in '02 or in '03 if the changes don't truly keep up with the competition.
And I do think that a $36-40,000 nicely to heavily optioned 330i sedan is a direct competitor to LS, both 6 & 8. I was trying to buy a 323i when I found the LS.
I have a 2001 sport v-8 w/4500 miles that just developed a whistle through the center vents when in the auto position. If I slow the fan speed down manually, the noise goes away, if I speed in up, it becomes higher pitched. Anyone else come across this annoyance? If so, what was the problem/remedy. Vehicle goes in for 5000 mile maintainence next week anyway, I'll let them figure it out. Thanks, Bill.
I love my LS8. I purchased my LS in September of 2000 and have had only one warranty problem.
The turn signal stalk had a faulty wiper internal switch that caused the auto wipers to come on when they felt like it. Other than that this car is a pure joy to own and drive.
I enjoy using the SST especially after Mark upgraded the Software engagements. Every time I get on the freeways, I look forward to flooring it and running it through the gears. The engine in this car is fantastic both performance wise and the audible notes that emanate from under that muscular hood. It just sings “Wood . Leather . Adrenaline”
My only real problem is keeping it under 100. Thankfully the radar detector reminds me of reality and I take my foot off the accelerator. Another gripe I have is the time I spend looking at maps to find the curvies. Don’t you just hate that?
I guess you could say Lincoln really screwed me over.
How could you buy a FWD instead of a Lincoln LS? In many comparison tests, It is the ONLY RWD you can buy without spending big bucks. The Infiniti G35 is the only competition on the horizon with RWD in this price range. After driving many FWD cars (and owning none), I can only say I've avoided the FWD lobotomy thus far (General Motors hasn't put a reward out on me yet). The 3.2 is an OK appliance until I try to drift the first corner. FWD cars always look funny when they end up pointing backwards on the freeway.
The window failure is about the only thing that I haven't had to deal with knock on wud. 08/99 build had since 04/00 with just over 17k on it now. Hopefully the windows will be the next owner's problem not mine.
At least there's a fix for this problem, and Lincoln has accepted responsibility for the failure to begin with. I like the fact that if one window fails, Lincoln will replace BOTH rear window mechanisms gratis. While I may not have gotten the sweetest deal on my purchase price (long story), my dealer did give me 3-year deal for complete maintenance (same as what Lincoln provided for MY01). Either way, if a window fails before Jan. 03, it gets replaced on someone else's checkbook, and I'll know how to push my point.
lslincolnsucks - My friend Kevin (he accompanied me to Mania I in Irvine) has a '00 3.2 TL and would love to get rid of it in favor of an LS . . . he's just "stuck" in his current lease. Per Kevin, the TL has too many squeaks and rattles, and just doesn't feel tight enough for him.
I would like to know how the rear wheel drive handles in the snow with the "Smart Trac" option. I know that traction control really doesn't help in winter weather but I'm told the Smart Trac is suppose to be Cats meow in winter. I would like to hear a actual LS owners opinion. Tahnks
Valid current and future competitors to LS8 and/or LS6 include: Catera, IS300, 325i, 330i, 525i, 530i, C240, C320, S80, S-type 3.0, GS300, and the G35, FWD/AWD A4, A6, and AWD Jag X-type.
Think the way to view it is sports sedan, not necessarily RWD sport sedan. Sure, we'd like to limit it to RWD, but there are some competitive FWD or AWD sport sedans. Their numbers are competitive. We'd likely argue they "feel different", but that doesn't mean they can be automatically discounted.
The September issue of C&D has a luxo comparison (listed here in finishing order of 7 to 1) of the Cadillac DTS, Jag S-type 4.0, Mercedes E430, Infiniti Q45, Lexus GS430, Audi A6 4.2 Quattro & BMW 540i. Well what a surprise, BMW wins again. C&D's biggest complaint was the acceleration of the S-type. Although I usually am awed by every word I type (that's a joke friends) I couldn't have said it better. Here are C&D's words:
"Although it's unfair to judge any automobile outside the NHRA on nothing more than its straight-line acceleration, it can be an indication of overall responsiveness in passing situations, cornering and general road behavior. Here the Jaguar, although acceptable by most standards, lagged behind the best of this particular class and therefore fell in the final grading."
Sounds all too familiar to several LS reviews. I was surprised to see the 0-60 time for the S-type 4.0 at 6.3 seconds, which I think is the fastest time for it in any rag so far. Makes me wonder if the Jag has new PCM software too. The Jag is listed with a 3.31 rear end. Interestingly, both the HP of the S-type and the 540i are almost idendical 281 vs. 282) but the 540i has a lot more torque 324 lb-ft @ 3600 RPM vs. 287 lb-ft at 4300 RPM. Overall the 540i was the fastest car in the test wining 5 of the 7 different acceleration tests C&D runs.
There's no way I'd compare ANY FWD platform to the LS. Period. Also, there's no way I'd compare the 3-series BMW, Audi A4, IS300, or Jag X-type to the LS . . . they're all much smaller in size. Just because they're priced similarly doesn't make them direct competitors. If you're comparing by price and 4-doors, then you might as well throw in an Acura MDX on you're shopping list! Also, using your logic, the BMW 5-series competes with the 3-series. Price points are more reflective of demographics than vehicle attributes, and each of the cars you mention are aimed at a similar demographic.
I don't want to start a flame throwing battle here, but this is an old, and tired discussion that's been rehashed for the bazillionth time. The regular contributors on this board pretty much know where we all stand on this point, so I'm not sure who you're trying to convince with your argument. I'm not saying that you're argument doesn't have merit, but it doesn't fully wash with me.
I purchased a 2001 LS V6 at the beginning of the year with the Sport package, chrome wheels, a moonroof and the convenience package for $33,010 plus TTL, under the X-plan.
Other than it being slower than a baseball sized turd ball passing through my cats butt :<), as some on this list would have you believe, there was no competition, then or now, that offered the semi-luxury features the LS does. Who knows about next year. The LS was the best choice, at the time, for me.
There was a HBR article a while back that contended that 60% of all decisions made could be proven wrong - given the benefit of 12 months foresight. Given my decision matrix, none of the cars mentioned in post #4097 (and I've driven most of them) came close to the LS at my moment of truth. My crystal ball is not as clear as some others' when it comes to my next moment of truth.
BTW, does anyone know of a good laxative for my cat?
The LS is falling behind the competition, jsut look at the '02 Maxima at 260HP from a 3.5L V6 and the Acura 3.2TL V6 at 260HP. Yes they are FWD but they have superior build quality and resale value especially when you consider that Lincoln needs to offer 0% financing and free first payments to move the metal. Just think of the resale value on your LS in a few years when these incentives hit you. Note - Acura doesn't have to discount the TL and it outsells the LS 2:1 and has superior resale value, all because they build a quality product!
Comments
http://www.bonforums.com/memos/memo_hutchins080101.htm
Wonder how bleak '02 will be for Lincoln. Navigator has fallen way behind Cadillac's gigantic SUV. Continental is dead. LS running on minor changes, if any. Blackwood a real odd niche market. Someone at Lincoln should be shot and sent to the Eastern Front!
08 August 2001
Lincoln Navigator Wins Satisfaction Award--Today AutoPacific presented the Lincoln Navigator with it's top award for Satisfaction in both the SUV and Total Truck categories. Auto Pacific sends surveys to all new vehicle customers who purchased during September through November of last year. The criteria is based on 1) product quality, 2) salesperson knowledge and 3) customer handling. Navigator competed against 79 other trucks, and our customers honored us with the highest rating beating out even newer entrants like BMW X5, Acura MDX and Lexus RX300.
I got the latest issue of Car&Driver magazine in the mail yesterday. In this issue is a short review of the new, "Butt-Fugly" Cadillac CTS. The car is very humble looking, but guess what ??? A five speed manual transmission is available. I guess the market isn't dead after all.
One other thought regarding HP. I too, will always be tinkering with my rides, looking to make them a little better. Just look at the aftermarket that's out there for GM's two most famous "orphans", the Buick GN and the Impala SS. If there weren't "gearheads" out here buying the parts, I doubt there would be such a large number of companies willing to supply the goodies.
Over and out...........
Guess we'll have to wait for the SVT guys to do their magic. Anyone heard anything else since the SVT SC V8 test mule was spotted at a racetrack test session?
Me, I prefer stock. Why buy something and then spend so much time, effort, and money making it "better"? If it wasn't good enough, I would've bought something else that was "better". And I don't like the thought of messing up warranties, causing problems in other areas, ruining emission controls, increasing noise levels dramatically, or degrading fuel economy. All too often side effects of the aftermarket effort to "improve".
We've been promised more power next year. I think it must be in conjunction with the Jag engine upgrade which is increasing displacement to 3.3 and 4.3. That would make sense to me since the block castings are the same. So the questions is whether the LS will get the larger displacement without VVT (or a milder, cheaper, detuned version of VVT) or keep the current displacement and add the VVT. Sounds like keeping the same blocks without VVT would be the cheaper of the two since you keep the same castings and don't add the cost of VVT. I still think Lincoln could market a SVT or special version with the Jag engine without infringing on the corporate hierarchy. Jag already has plans to SC both the V6 and V8 for the X-type and/or S-type anyway, so there's always that option.
I say give Lincoln a chance to catch up - they acknowledged that they're a year behind. In the meantime just remember that things are not usually as bad (or as good) as they seem to be. Let's just hope the 2005 redesign doesn't look like the new CTS!
Love to drive to Dearborn, seeing the country along the way, and gave some serious thought about it, but I've used up quite a bit of my puny vacation hours for the club stuff already. It would take two full days from the left coast to Dearborn with a wife and a 4 year-old, which while the LS is great for long distances, doesn't bode well for family harmony . If it was just me I would do it in a heartbeat.
aside to akirby: Couldn't agree with you more.
Think of how many V6 Autos have been sold. I bet that at least 95% of buyers are happy with the acceleration. Those that want more will always want more, no matter what.
http://www.morissdampers.com/news.html
Most cars are designed for the masses. Their target might be a specific segment of the masses, but nontheless it's the masses. There are those of us, who, for whatever the reason, want our cars to be a little unique from all of the other similar units of whatever car we have chosen.
This is where the aftermarket lives. I realize that many more people lease their cars today than in the past. Therefore, due to contractual obligation they can't or won't modify a car that will be gone in 12, 24, or 36 months. Those of us such as myself, who purchase rather than lease, tend to work with the aftermarket to either upgrade the performance or alter in some way the appearance of our car to suit our desires.
I agree that Detroit has come a long way in providing a good platform to enjoy some spirited driving with. However, they also have cut back on the number of options that used to allow you to tailor your car to your specific needs and/or wants. The aftermarket has stepped up to the plate with a lot of fairly sophisticated equipment that can fill that gap.
That's the way that I see the situation, and if you don't want to modify your car, that's your choice. This America's a wonderful country, isn't it ??
One more thought in closing. As far back as the mid 1970's, I was making modifications to my cars in order to improve cornering capability, as well as the generally accepted HP increases. Back then, however, the aftermarket was very limited in suspension upgrades. It was definitely "cut and try", or "shadetree engineering" at its finest, but it was also a "character builder".
Once again, over and out......
My discussion has completely ignored the effort to enhance the outward appearance of the LS, as there are plenty of body panel and taillight lense kits available. People will always want to customize their ride to suit their personalities. This is not to say that the LS "missed the mark", on the contrary, I think it is still the value leader in the sport sedan segment, maybe just not by as wide a margin as it used to have.
I also wanted to lower the car using a set of Eibach coils. I hesitate, however, to do this, because the rear camber settings are not equal between right and left, and since they're not adjustable (ugghh!!) I don't want to chance exaggerating a questionable situation. If not for this, the coils would have been in a long time ago.
Yes, the factories are really distant from the 60's when you could order your GTO with the sound deadening deleted for weight saving. Assembly line customization is gone, and that's where the least expensive and best mods can be had. In the press is an article about how Nissan is developing a system that will let you order a car and have it in three weeks if it's a U.S. made model. Probably no aftermarket items but it could be possible in the future.
I don't see why manufacturers could not stock, for example, a Borla system that could be factory installed at an additional "option" price. It's been done before. The assembly process is the same as the stock system so I don't think it would be a big deal. To get custom "options" now, we let the dealer choose what's available and their choices are sometimes in poor taste and tremendously overpriced. LM could always publish a "Performance Catalog" like Nissan and others do.
My idea of LS aftermarket mods aim squarely at performance. The 2002 LS, especially the V-6, is a rolling admission that first year development time restraints resulted in less than optimum intake and exhaust parameters. So the Borla and intake mods are really recommended. In the case of the Borla, it's actually better than just replacing the mufflers with 2002 models. Borla addressed not only the need for lower restriction
mufflers, but increased the pipe diameter, bends, lack of X-box, and finally made the tips chrome and visible. I can't wait to put mine on.
Other mods at the top of the list include an LSD pumpkin. What good is power if you can't put it on the ground, especially in slolom type power slides. Right now I'm afraid to power out of sharp hard turns for fear of losing rear traction as one wheel inevitably starts its independent
spin. I'm not hot on suspension mods as I can't utilize the handling potential of the car yet, especially without LSD. I'm only interested in wheels if the offset is dialed in for the LS and there is a significant weight savings. An inch wider or larger in diameter does not make IMHO a significant performance improvement for the huge investment required. Finally, I am on a 3 year Red Carpet so I don't want to modify the car so much I can't trade it in for a 2003 or order a 2004 if it has "the right stuff" (praying for VVT, six-speed and LSD).
I just need a little more power. Yesterday a 60 year old guy in a newer Avalon tangled with me at a series of stoplights and while I got off the line faster, he was doing better as I went into third. Of course, we were both exceeding the 45 mph limit but it was fun. Too bad there were no corners as part of the run. Oh, I had my 10 and 12 year old sons as ballast and he was alone. That was hurting my power to weight ratio. I think this guy read my license plate frame that reads "Not Your Father's Lincoln" on top and "LS Five Speed Manual" on the bottom and took offense.
giowa (4062): I think it's just personal preference. Some people just enjoy tinkering and personalizing their cars. It happens that exhaust and intake mods are the easiest to do in many cases. Ditto with the sound system and appearance upgrades. With the lack of mechanical aftermarket stuff, there isn't much more to change outside of totally fabricating your mods.
slunar (4071): Actually I look at ROI. Time + dollars related to actual benefit. I won't waste time or money on something that will pick up 10 hp or add 0.1 G at the skid pad. It's incremental. On the other hand, when the 2.8L V6 in my Fiero sneezes, I will either go with a 3.8L S/C or Northstar. Big time and money investment with a proportional big payback in performance. Using your analogy, many of these minor upgrades are more like sawing an extra hole in the outhouse bench to double it's intake, not moving to indoor plumbing and flush toilets.
The minor mods I have done (wud and tires) have enhanced my enjoyment of the car. Lincoln's offer to retrofit the wood wheel and shifter was appreciated. The ability to upgrade the transmission software to the latest version is a huge plus.
Overall, I enjoy the car more now than ever. Having said that, I will be expecting major improvements in the next product cycle. Slunar's outhouse analogy is right on.
Now, I would like to find that 60 year old in the Avalon and show him some LS tail lights. :-)
Airwolf1000
As for "cost effective", shoot, we'd all be driving Civics if that was our motivator.
akirby, save that earlier post. May need to Copy/Paste it in here every few weeks.
BMW 3 Series: "Stunning M3 debuts; 2.5L base 6 adds 15 hp; hotter 3.0L upline 6 replaces 2.8L; AWD option on sedan and wagons"
BMW 5 Series: "two new engine choices"
Lexus IS300: Completely new [now with manual tranny for MY 02]
MB C-Class: "Completely redesigned for '01... new chassis, two new engines, a 6M trans for the std C240"
Don't forget about the new 02 Jag X-type. And the 02 Altima shows what is happening at a level beneath the LS.
About the only car that has chanched slower than the LS is the Catera. And look what a non-player it is in the market!
Akirby- you could have left it as "Sentra" To wit: preview of 2002 Sentra Spec V in 9/01 Car & Driver:
Available with 6-speed manual, LSD, 215/45ZR-17 Contis, Rockford Fosgate stereo. 0-60 in high 6's, "coners with minmal body roll, is stable in transitional maneuvers, and turns in with real conviction." Estimated base price 17-18K.
I can understand why some of you who have 2 year leases expiring might be disappointed that no major changes occured for 2002, but think of the position that Lincoln was in in 99. They had no idea if this car would even sell - a totally new car that was totally different from anything else in a new market segment. No business would commit big bucks to a project like that until they're sure they can sell them. I'm sure that's why they're a year behind where they wanted to be. It takes 2-3 years (or more) to make major changes to a vehicle - you can't just do it overnight. I'm also sure that Lincoln has to coordinate major changes with Jag since it's a shared platform. That may have more to do with the engine changes than anything else.
So let's stop whining about the competition and focus on the LS again.
Artie: Typical mispelling. Told you not to pay attention to the fat, bald guy!
Brian
Regards,
Victor
Look at Kevin's situation... the dealer won't even secure a window in the upright position, so that his window isn't down 24/7 - and that is DURING the warranty period for a 2 year old car!
Is Lincoln going to recall these things or give us an warranty to repair for the life of the car?
My RR window is on its second failure - waiting on backordered parts... neither failure was preceeded by any warning (crunching) noises.
My LR window makes a crunching sound at the end of closing - Is this one going too?
Is the outside temp. a factor. My LS is not garaged and it seems funny that so many are having the crashes at the same time.
Well, my only recourse has been to convince friends to avoid the LS and it works, (2) friends have purchased Acura 3.2TL's instead of the LS, so at least I'm getting some satisfaction!
Are you listening Lincoln - fix the problem or lose more sales...
Look how bleak '02 is for Lincoln. Navigator getting old, lots of competition, incl. a Cadillac that is creaming it in press comparisons. Continental dead; no replacement. Blackwood a niche player limited in sales; something like 5,000 units or so, maybe ten. Town Car soldiering on with no changes; a dinosaur marketed to the AARP crowd and heavily discounted. Only the LS is a fresh, current, competitive product. But it hasn't been updated during its three complete MYs
How much anyone want to bet me that Lincoln will have to offer serious subsidies, discounts, free option packages, rebates, etc. to move MY 02 metal? Sales might spike up on a car like LS if the deals are great. Then all those people will be locked into their 36 month leases. Many other buyers will move elsewhere in '02 or in '03 if the changes don't truly keep up with the competition.
And I do think that a $36-40,000 nicely to heavily optioned 330i sedan is a direct competitor to LS, both 6 & 8. I was trying to buy a 323i when I found the LS.
The turn signal stalk had a faulty wiper internal switch that caused the auto wipers to come on when they felt like it. Other than that this car is a pure joy to own and drive.
I enjoy using the SST especially after Mark upgraded the Software engagements. Every time I get on the freeways, I look forward to flooring it and running it through the gears. The engine in this car is fantastic both performance wise and the audible notes that emanate from under that muscular hood. It just sings “Wood . Leather . Adrenaline”
My only real problem is keeping it under 100. Thankfully the radar detector reminds me of reality and I take my foot off the accelerator. Another gripe I have is the time I spend looking at maps to find the curvies. Don’t you just hate that?
I guess you could say Lincoln really screwed me over.
LOL
lslincolnsucks - My friend Kevin (he accompanied me to Mania I in Irvine) has a '00 3.2 TL and would love to get rid of it in favor of an LS . . . he's just "stuck" in his current lease. Per Kevin, the TL has too many squeaks and rattles, and just doesn't feel tight enough for him.
I know that traction control really doesn't help in winter weather but I'm told the Smart Trac is suppose to be Cats meow in winter. I would like to hear a actual LS owners opinion. Tahnks
Think the way to view it is sports sedan, not necessarily RWD sport sedan. Sure, we'd like to limit it to RWD, but there are some competitive FWD or AWD sport sedans. Their numbers are competitive. We'd likely argue they "feel different", but that doesn't mean they can be automatically discounted.
"Although it's unfair to judge any automobile outside the NHRA on nothing more than its straight-line acceleration, it can be an indication of overall responsiveness in passing situations, cornering and general road behavior. Here the Jaguar, although acceptable by most standards, lagged behind the best of this particular class and therefore fell in the final grading."
Sounds all too familiar to several LS reviews. I was surprised to see the 0-60 time for the S-type 4.0 at 6.3 seconds, which I think is the fastest time for it in any rag so far. Makes me wonder if the Jag has new PCM software too. The Jag is listed with a 3.31 rear end. Interestingly, both the HP of the S-type and the 540i are almost idendical 281 vs. 282) but the 540i has a lot more torque 324 lb-ft @ 3600 RPM vs. 287 lb-ft at 4300 RPM. Overall the 540i was the fastest car in the test wining 5 of the 7 different acceleration tests C&D runs.
I don't want to start a flame throwing battle here, but this is an old, and tired discussion that's been rehashed for the bazillionth time. The regular contributors on this board pretty much know where we all stand on this point, so I'm not sure who you're trying to convince with your argument. I'm not saying that you're argument doesn't have merit, but it doesn't fully wash with me.
. . . donning the nomex, just in case ;-)
Other than it being slower than a baseball sized turd ball passing through my cats butt :<), as some on this list would have you believe, there was no competition, then or now, that offered the semi-luxury features the LS does. Who knows about next year. The LS was the best choice, at the time, for me.
There was a HBR article a while back that contended that 60% of all decisions made could be proven wrong - given the benefit of 12 months foresight. Given my decision matrix, none of the cars mentioned in post #4097 (and I've driven most of them) came close to the LS at my moment of truth. My crystal ball is not as clear as some others' when it comes to my next moment of truth.
BTW, does anyone know of a good laxative for my cat?