....is a very attractive package when compared to either the V6 or V8 LS right now. My previous post not withstanding, I totally agree with many others' here.
If Lincoln does not wake up very soon they will miss capitalizing on the wave of reasonably priced, performance luxury vechicles, they helped launch. There are no more 5+ year life cycles like the ones Lincoln enjoyed with their big land yachts. Hope they don't miss the boat.
lincolnsucks figured out that the the "other" board doesn't exist. If you don't like Lincoln's fine. I love my LS and wouldn't trade it for anything but another. And Acura DOES discount their cars heavily. Just visit the Acura boards. If you want a Maxima/TL/ES300/I30/Camary/Accord fine. Buy one. I'll stack my LS up against anyone of those cars in any catagory anyday. BTW, I blew away a 2001 Maxima on a right 270 onramp in the outside lane yesterday. The inferior FWD platform just couldn't keep up. The posted advisory speed is 20. I was going 45+ with no tire squeal.
So here's a MY02 car with 260 hp, a mere 8 hp more than my MY00 LS8. The car is a FWD appliance (borrowing from Stanny1) that is built on the bland Honda Accord platform. Sorry, it falls woefully short in the ride and handling department when compared with the LS. If you drive them both, and come to the conclusion that the TL is superior, then I'd seriously question you're driving standards. Sure it's 10K cheaper than the LS, and that only goes to show its not a real competitor the LS . . . the Chrysler 300M maybe, but not the LS.
Fit and finish on my 10/99 build LS8 has been first class, and other than moisture in the headlights, I've had absolutely no trouble whatsoever. Lslincolnsucks, you'll never convince me (or many others on this board) that Lincoln falls short in the quality department.
A TSB just got released for the few unfortunates that have experienced the mysterious no start or no crank problem. It is TSB# 01-16-04 Driveability - No Start - Intermittent Crank No Start
The full text in on LLSOC under the Recalls/TSBs link on the navigation bar. It calls for installation of a jumper wiring harness.
Brian
P.S. I'd like to see Acura publish their TSBs. And don't tell me that they don't have them. I tolerated a Honda Accord that my wife had for a year. Yes, it was dependable and there were no problems. But it was without a doubt the DULLEST vehicle I have ever had the displeasure of driving. I've also driven most of the Acura/Lexus/Infiniti line and while, in my opinion, they are fine cars, they are soul-less compared to the European makes and compared to the LS.
Hmmmmm, upon checking, there has been a grand TOTAL of 1, count 'em, ONE, recall on the LS. There are less then 10 TSB's of which I am aware. That ain't bad for ANY first year car, let alone a first year model change. My windows work every time, my car starts every time (and what a sweet sound with the Borla )) and the seat remembers where I set it. Don't get me wrong. You're the lead dog or your view is kinda crappy. Lincoln has plenty of room for improvement and I believe that behind some seriously heavy, locked doors things are happening! We should expect, not disparage teething pains. How many years was Honda and Toyota here before they built up the level of trust they now have? 5 years? 10? How about BMW? We just need some patience. Lincoln WILL come through as long as we give them the chance. The Old Guard isn't changed overnight. It has been said before. Does anyone think Lincoln would've introduced a car of this type 10 or even 5 years ago? I think not. After listening to JR last January, I'm convinced the LS has a bright future ahead. Pretty soon BMW will have the crappy view
Hey Stan, before acquiring your LS manual, did you test-drive or study the Audi A6?
We all love RWD, but AWD certainly (he said hopefully) is at least as good? Since my recent trip to Europe & introduction to Audi as they're driven rather than marketed, I'm doing some research. I frankly didn't look at Audi's when I was shopping the LS because of perceived reliability issues. Not sure that was accurate, but either way, what do you think?
To address many of the past week's posts, I'm not dumping on the (my) LS. I'm just trying to learn more about one of the bona fide competitors. I've learned a lot about BMW, Lexus & Infiniti over the past couple of years, but never did Audi. Based on much of what I've learned so far, I'll be keeping my LS for awhile.
Audi has very very few dealers. Here in the metro Phoenix area, there's one. If you extend the search to a 200-mile radius, you get up to 2 (count 'em), with the other one being in Tucson. In addition to which, the Audi, even with the Quattro, puts the majority of the weight on the front wheels. The complexity of Quattro & the dual turbo setup (offers those of us who prefer a manual a very attractive option), combined with the scarcity of dealers, doesn't bode well for those who might keep an automobile past the lease or warranty period.
The paint sure looks good (they have a real red) though, and the interiors aren't even in the same zip code with the LS, so I guess we all continue to examine our options.
OTOH, I could spend $2 - 3K on a repaint in a color I like, get the windows fixed, glue back the stuff that's fallen off, and be good to go for several years.
I guess it's the free market at work -- others would consider it whining.
Premier Auto Group - (subdivides) - a new group is formed within. Effective immediately Mike O'Driscoll is appointed president of the newly formed North American Group of British Marques - Aston Martin, Jaguar & Land Rover North America.
Interesting reading the comments on LS competition. However, most of you are forgetting one of the LS's strongest points, that is the 3.9L V8. All of the other cars I considered buying had 6 cyl engines. Forget the moans about not enough HP, the LS's V8 engine is simply the smoothest running engine that you can get in a car costing less than $40K. Everything it does from idling to WOT acceleration is unbelievably smooth compared to its 6 cyl competition. The 3.5L V6 in the 300M feels like an egg beater compared to the LS-8. The 3.2 TL, Maxima, ES-300 & I30 have smooth engines for 6's but they are not on par with the Lincoln 8. Dare I say the 3.9L 8 is smoother than the BMW straight 6? The LS's V8 goes a long way in making the LS-8 feel refined. I'm also amazed at how fast my LS-8 warms up in cold weather and I'm equally amazed that sitting in stop & go traffic with the temperature at 102 degrees how the temperature gage barely moves the width of its pointer.
Please pay attention to the words "Sport Sedan". They come in all types and sizes. Crack open the 5/01 issue of Motor Trend. You'll see a six car comparison titled "Sport Sedan Road Trip". They have no trouble including three FWD (S60 T5, 3.2TL S, and 9-3 Viggen); one AWD (A6 2.7T Quattro) and two RWD (330i & C320) into the mix. The two RWDers lead in "handling" (A+ and A versus B- thru A- for FWD and B+ for AWD). Same sorts of comparisons done by C&D, R&T, etc.
And I don't have to defer to anyone in regard to prefering RWD. My '96 Impala SS and '00 LS8 Sport are proof positive. I just know that the lack of RWD doesn't automatically disqualify an otherwise good car from serious Sport Sedan capabilities. Esp. an AWDer.
The stats, price, equipment, and value do make the 3.2TL S a serious competitor. It may be bland in base mode, but in Type S it is an acceleration screamer. And don't anyone tell me the 330i isn't a serious LS competitor. The 3 and 5 Series are the epitome of modern sport sedans. The M models for each are nearly the embodiment of sport sedan driving nirvana.
(Oh, and I could say I'm tired of reading about lots of types of posts. But I ain't God nor the censor of this site. If you don't like something, do what I do. Skip it. That isn't too difficult.)
Actually, on the Lincoln it's called Advance Trac & it works very well, and very unobtrusively. I live where it snows quite a bit, and never, ever, felt the car slide sideways on a slippery curve last winter (without snow tires). And it can save your bacon on a rain-soaked curve as well. I also found the TC useful when pulling away from a stop on glare ice, especially uphill. Rather than just killing the power like some cars, it seems to "feather" the throttle just like you would do yourself, except perfectly every time. With the SST auto transmission, you also have the option of starting out in 3rd gear for a little extra help getting started on ice. The LS is a very good winter car, equal to or better than any FWD I've driven.
You brought the subject up... No, the LS8 or Jag S-type 4.0L motors are NOT smoother than the inherently smoother I-6 configuration found in the 6 cyl BMWs. Or the IS300. Read any comparison test they participate in or just about any plain review. Universal kudos for smooth, quiet power delivery. Heck, I read nothing but outstanding praise for GM's new 4.2L 270 hp SUV I-6. (Check out the 9/01 issue of Consumer Reports. SUV comparison test. They praise the I-6 engine for its "powerful and refined new Six". Check out the 0-60 stats. Their 4,660 lb GMC Envoy with 4-speed automatic went 0-60 in a mere 8.2 secs. Think what it would do for a Catera! Or an LS6!!!)
The LS8's engine is quite nice. I love mine. It is almost, if just not quite there, in comparison to the magnificent I-6.
Ive driven both. Multiple times. And the LS 3.9 V8 is smoother than the BMW I6. And another thing. Comparing cars classified as subcompacts by EPA (BMW 3 series) to a car classified as a Mid-sized EPA (Lincoln LS) is not a direct comparison. Neither is FWD to RWD. There is no comparison. Right Stanny? ;-)
First I heard of the dealer replacing both rear assembles. When I had the first failure they refused. again this time. And if they have a fix why did the same window fail again. I must be missing something.
Certainly open to broad interpretation. The 3-series BMW IS the competition because it is an icon in the field of sport sedans, but it is NOT competitive with the LS due to it's small size. FWD cars are NOT competitive because of their inherently inferior handling characteristics, yet they ARE the competition because there are some really good ones and they sell. The 5-series seems to be the most direct competitor, but, as has been said countless times, a lot more money for a marginally better car (maybe). Or you can spend a little less than the LS, and get a lot less car IMHO, like a 300M or Catera. These are the competition, too. As for the 260 hp Maxima, so what? A big fish in the Camry/Accord pond.
The competition is whatever else the individual buyer is considering, for whatever reason. In my case, the toughest competitor for the LS was my (then) current car. The LS had to be good enough to get me to part with my beloved Subaru Legacy and, at the same time, more than double my car payment.
I've expressed some impatience with Lincoln, but, enough. The 300M and Catera have been on the market, mostly unchanged, a lot longer than the LS, and DC and Cadillac are at least as far out in their development schedules as Lincoln.
I'm still ecstatic over the luxury and performance I got for my money, and am optimistic about the future of the LS. Furthermore, if I were shopping for an '02 sport sedan, I'd buy the LS8. I didn't want an "upscale" Honda or Toyota last year, and still don't. And I won't compare Lincoln's current offering with other manufacturers' future plans.
Aren't we all hot this morning! I didn't drive anything, not even an LS, before ordering my LS Manual. I decided the 525 or any 5 series was really not a good value and I'd heard horror stories for years on parts and service prices for BMW and something about low life on water pumps as well. As for the A6 and for Audi in general,as Steve mentioned, lack of dealers and parts prices and availability. I feel my Duratech V6 is cheap on parts and easy on availability. I do find it odd that with an installed base of millions of 2.5 and 3.0 Duratechs, more aftermarket parts are not to be found. My only conclusion is that the public does not view it as a "performance" engine. In fact, no Ford V6 seems to spell excitement. Maybe Ford is gold-plating a Dixie cup in using it in the LS? Does anyone know of an "Engineering Analysis" of the Duratech in some car mag, most likely when the Contour was introduced? Anyway I ordered my LS Manual on "blind faith", resigning myself to the only Manual, four door, RWD sedan of reasonable size outside of the BMW. AWD sounds nice but complex and heavier and in San Diego I need AWD or 4WD like a fish needs a bicycle. Since I took delivery 7/2000, I have had the "window problem" and that's it. No squeaks, rattles, beeps, or failures. Lots of 60 mph corners with 25 mph signs, four wheel drifts, and outrageous dynamic behavior which I enjoy. Sort of like "Space Mountain" on wheels.
scottc8's post at #4115 is quite insightful. I concur with nearly all of it.
I think the reason some of us disagree on the mission/purpose of the LS and its competitors is that some of us (e.g., myself and maybe more of the LS8 Sport and LS6 Sport manual owners) focus on the Sport Sedan aspect (i.e., the performance of the car in the critical areas of acceleration, braking, handling, & ride), while others (e.g., LS6 auto owners) focus on factors tied to the car's size, platform, price, and status (i.e., in interior room, trunk space, size, RWD/IRS, mid-$30K price, and luxury amenities).
If you focus on the former then any decent Sport Sedan, which would include RWD/FWD/AWD models, is potentially relevant. From a Sport Sedan standpoint, it doesn't (& didn't) matter to me if the 330i's or 530i's trunk is smaller than the LS's or that the rear might be a bit more cramped. If you focus on the latter, then you are quickly narrowing the scope. There just aren't too many RWD platforms as large, heavy, or capable as LS. Some like the TC/CV/GM just aren't as all-around capable while others like the 3 or 5 Series give up interior room and trunk space, while others like Lexus GS or Jag S-type cost a lot more.
Would be interesting to know the sales breakdown of the LS by LS8 Sport, LS8 base, LS6 Sport auto, LS6 base auto, and LS6 Sport manual. I think those buyers who want the sport package will view the LS's competitors a bit broader than those who didn't want the sport package. Maybe the LS6 Sport manual buyers might be the most exclusive since there aren't that many great Sport Sedans available with manual tranny in this price range?
I think the fact that the Catera and 300M have been so slow to change has been noticed by both the car-buying public and automotive press. How much do you read about either any more? Notice how slow sales beceame? And how deep the discouts are on both? That is exactly what began to happen to LS in MY 01 and will get worse in MY 02.
I've been out of town for a couple of weeks and had to go through a couple hundred postings. Has Jim's replacement been on line yet to introduce herself?
Brian, any insight to this or how involved she will be?
If you're not a member of the LLSOC, perhaps this is yet another reason to join. If you are a member, visit the Recall Notices section of the site. There you will find a description of all the relevent issues/problems and the solution. As indicated on the LLSOC site:
TSB 01-01-02 - Window Regulator Replacement: "Calls for replacement of both regulators with the new level part so that a repeat trip for repair can be eliminated."
I would advise you to ask your dealer to provide you with a copy of this TSB, and have them read it for themselves. Not being certain when you first experienced this problem, perhaps you did not get the improved regulator when the repair was implemented. It is also possible that your dealer did not correctly obtain the improved regulator or the improved regulator was not available when the repair was done. Either way, this should no longer be the case.
However, I have recently seen a discussion on the LLSOC board indicating that there in now a nation-wide back-order on the regulators, and that FoMoCo has recently changed their policy on replacing both regulators at the same time, although no official word has been conveyed yet. I believe Brian (aka. ls1bmw0) is researching this through his contacts.
It should be noted though, that window regulator failure problem was first brought to Lincoln management's attention through reports on this board (stanny1 I believe). Dick Cupka, then Director of Lincoln Engineering, addressed this issue at LS Mania I in Irvine, CA early this year. Dick explained that the old regulators were being purged from the pipeline at that time, and that the new design was being expedited into service and the replacement part channel. Dick assured us that window regulator failures would not be a "chronic" problem with the LS. The failures being reported now SHOULD only be from early build date vehicles that have not already had TSB 01-01-02 implemented. Hope that helps.
Not all sport sedans are created equal. I don't care what the car rags write, a subcompact is not a competitor with a mid-size vehicle. Just because they have four doors and offer performance attributes doesn't mean they're direct competitors. I'm not critisizing anyone for resurrecting this tired, old discussion, but please, at least, introduce more material to support your position, otherwise you'll have little chance of converting someone over to your view. If we continue along the same lines, I'm afraid this will degenerate into another p*ssing contest with everyone trying to get the last word in, and hard feelings all around.
Or could it be that this is the way someone could get into this segment and still have a performance oriented car? We've hashed out countless times the 0-60 stuff. I don't see much of what the 'Vette et.al. strive for. That, until recently, elusive 1.0g. The lowly base 6 does pretty well and I can get out of corners pretty well. My guess is that the 6 is the replacement for the Taurus SHO. The SHO turned out to be a sho(w) without an audience. Over priced and underpowered compared to it's competition. The 5-series competition for the 6 is the 525/8i (there was no 530). I STILL have about 20 more horses and torque. In my book that wins! The 530 did find the power. I'll save the $10k and spend it on parts to make my 6 the winner and still have $$$ left!
Stan, there is a blower for the Contour 2.5L. I'll have to tell you who to talk to.
Anne probably won't be on the board as often as Jim. For one thing, she's got to get up to speed on her new role. She took over from Jim who had that position for 4 1/2 years. Jim served as the front for many of the questions and issues that arose. Now that the club has been formed, a lot of these are being funneled through the club and to the right people at Lincoln, including service and quality resolution issues. Not to make the club sound like it's a replacement for Jim's involvement on the board, but Lincoln does put a certain amount of trust in the club's judgement of matters.
That doesn't mean that Lincoln doesn't care about the board. On the contrary, there are at least fifteen of the key LS engineering managers that regularly "submarine surf" the board to stay in touch with the owners.
Anne will eventually get on the board as soon as she gets up to speed. Her travel schedule is every bit as hectic as Jim's was, so I'm sure her home base time will be limited, at least initially.
The club is checking up on the rear window regulator "national back-order" issue with Lincoln. The TSB clearly states that BOTH regulators are supposed to be replaced. The TSB that is on LLSOC is taken directly from the TSB advisory that is sent out to the dealers. So Kevin, I would suggest you contact your dealer service manager with the TSB in your hand.
The point was made that the SHO was: " Over priced and under powered compared to it's competition."
In 1989, the competition was Audi 200 / BMW 535i / Nissan Maxima SE. The SHO tested head-to-head and beat them all. Pricing? Audi $36K, BMW $45K, Nissan $20K and the SHO $21K.
The SHO was only available in a manual. When an automatic came in 1993, it received a 3.2L engine to push the torque curve down for the tranny. The manual didn't get the 3.2L engine. Effectively no change was made to the SHO (five model years). In 1996 the "new" taurus arrived and the manual ended in MY'95. Seven years of no changes or upgrading. What a surprise that market share faded....
Here the LS has had three MYs and no changes. Rumor has it that changes are promised for MY'05 which will be six years of no changes, hardly promising. But the competition isn't sitting still, the rumor mill has it that the A6 will be redesigned for MY'04 and a closer to 50/50 weight distribution is in order. Should this happen, then the A6 becomes the BMW "killer" and the LS's only marketing attribute will become pricing.
Not a good place to be.
We all know the potential that the LS has but the market place is dictated by follow through, not potential. An "affordable" BMW is looking less and less likely.
Comparisons are a matter of individual preferences. The auto rags assume (correctly in most cases I guess) that a buyer is either looking for a particular type of car or a specific price range, or some merging of the two.
For me - I am thinking toward lease end and considering two options. 1: spend more money and get a CLK430. I drove this car a couple months ago and just about needed a panty liner. 2: Get a full size truck F150 or C1500 and spend the savings on my racing hobby (SCCA in a 87 Fiero GT). Kinda stupid, but my point is that comparisons are a pretty individual thing. The CLK and a truck have nothing in common except for me.
Personally, if I were just comparing the LS "in general", I would compare 4 door sport sedans in the $25 - 45k price range. Period. There's a lot of models in that set, a lot that I wouldn't look at, and very few that I would even consider owning. I suppose that puts me with giowa and scottc8 on this one.
By the way, I traded in a 94 Bonneville for my LS. And I'm pretty fickle about cars (see my post on the "About the members" forum. I've averaged around a car a year and they include all sorts of cars and trucks.
I just realized that we missed the TRUE competitor for the LS. It is, drum roll please, The Hyundai XG300! Similar size, just as sporty and just a few $k less. I'll bet it even has the much desired ITH's!
Couple months ago I borrowed one from the local dealer and kept it for two days. Never know when I might need a new business car. Pleasant car for the money. Very nicely equipped. The top-of-the line L Model I drove had almost all the options of my LS8. For ride, drive, and handling, they really nailed the Buick LeSabre and Avalon market on it. But yes, in many ways it probably is a competitor to the LS6 base auto. Similar 0-60 time. Similar skidpad results. And it has more interior and trunk space. Not to mention it is about $10,000 less in MSRP.
giowa: You are a victim of BMW marketing. There is no way the BMW I6 is smoother than the LS 8 engine. I test drove them both, the BMW is smooth for a 6 but its no V8. Without getting into a long technical discussion, barring an engineering screw up, given similar or smaller displacement per cylinder, the more cylinders an engine has the smoother it will run. In addition, a 90 degree V8 is an inherently balanced configuration. If the I6 is so great why does BMW even bother buiding V8's and V12s? If BMW wants the ultimate smooth engine, why aren't they building straight 8's? By the way, there is a bridge in lower Manhatten you might be interested in buying, give me a call.
ronniepooh: But you never mention my SS. How come?
At least have the decency to say that my business car, a '00 Hyundai Sonata GLS, is a 170 hp 2.5L V-6, 5-speed manual, with 4-wheel disc brakes and ABS/traction control. It has side airbags, pretensioners, leather, sunroof, CD/cass, 4 full headrests, heated mirrors, split-fold rear seat, etc. And I only paid $18,400. (I've had her up to 120 mph. Surprisingly composed. Guessing she'll do about 124 mph.)In the first 24,000 miles she has had a single repair. A burned out headlight. Plus a MAF recall. Both replaced under warranty. I don't want to compare that to my trouble-prone LS8 Sport, which lived in the shop the first 16 months and 25,000 miles.
If you are ever in Omaha area, I'll race you in all three of my cars. I might beat you with each of them.
Someone presented a couple of technical papers on this a long, long time ago. Think I printed one off. I'll look for it later. An I-6 is inherently balanced in all phases. jnowski always liked to argue that the 60-deg V-6, which is much better than any other configuration, was also as balanced. It is close, but not quite. That is why I was intrigued by C&D saying the new CTS uses a 54-degree V-6.
Guess Lexus should've gone back to school before the put their I-6 in the IS300? And is General Motors just wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on their new 4.2L 270 hp I-6? Isn't it interesting that even Consumer Reports got their 4,660 pound GMC Envoy SUV with 4-speed auto to go 0-60 in 8.2 seconds with it? Odd that the car press has been saying nothing but great things about both of these I-6s!
stanny1: feel free to leap in. Didn't you have the Toyota I-6 in the mid-80s 4-door sedan, Cressida?
Being a charter member of the LLSOC I should have looked on the site before mouthing off. I will take notice of the TSB and inform the dealer of same. Hopefully with this info I can get satisfaction.. Thanks Kevin
I must admit to looking at, and test driving, the Hyundai XG300 before purchasing my manual LS. When we initially decided to buy a new car my wife was focused more on the luxury aspects of the car while I was focusing on the performance attributes. The Hyundai has an excellent inexpensive luxury vehicle in the XG and I would have had no qualms about buying it if luxury is one's primary concern (along with a limited budget). The XG300 IS a competitor in this specific situation. I bought the LS for one reason: a MANUAL transmission. So please don't blow Hyundai off just because of its reputation of building inexpensive (cheap) vehicles; the XG will change that perception. It most definitely is NOT a pig with lipstick!
BTW: My wife got an Infiniti I30 because she liked the Millenium Jade Green color better than anything Hyundai was offering, otherwise we might just own one!
I need to watch my satire! I saw the XG at the San Diego auto show. To me it was a $30k Taurus/Sable. I would've bought the Sable in a heartbeat over any Hyundai. 10 year 100k powertrain warrenties aren't that great. ANY(American) powertrain will last that long as long as you do the maintenance.
I'll try to check my satirical comments. Or be more obvious
Have you guys checked out the Cadillac CTS 2003 forum or the What is this BMW Thing? forum?
The CTS forum is a nice chuckle. The car isn't out yet and their beating it up! Interesting post comparing GM plastic to Lego blocks. The BMW forum, is as usual, a BMW forum, except there were a couple of comments by the host regarding the LS that I thought giowa might want to have a go at.
recieved my membership packet yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed the synergy mag........Chris, had one of the best Italian sausage and bell pepper sandwiches ever at Hannegan Meadow 7-8 yrs ago at the lodge there...one question for members, ...where are you putting the stickers on your cars. having trouble finding a place where it shows up well on my ivory parchment with deep tinted windows....enjoying the car comparasions, for me , was considering buick lesabre, pontiac bonneville, or chrysler, wanted to buy american.....son says i'm a little bit redneck, daughter-in- law thinks i'm a lot(but too sweet to say it).....thanks again Brian ...Jim
giowa if I6's are so great why don't you pull the V8 from you Impalla SS and put in an old Chevy "stovebolt" I6? I'll repeat again: More cylinders = a smoother running engine, end of story. Please explain to me why BMW uses V10's and V12's in their F1 & sports prototype racing cars if their I6 is so superior? The IS-300 has an I6 becaue it is intended to compete with the BMW 3 Series. I have to give BMW credit, 30+ years ago they took their underperforming I4, did some cheap engineering to add 2 cylinders to it and then proceeded to convince half the world, including you, that somehow I6's are the best engine in the world. I6's have a place in motor vehicles, only their best place is in trucks not cars.
As you know the LS8 did not make Ward's Top Ten Engines in 2001 as it had in 2000. For 2001 this is how they summed it up - Ford/Lincoln 3.9L DOHC V-8 - pluses= pretty cheap for a V-8 luxo-boat - minuses= outgunned by a lot of good sixes - equals= smooth but too slow.
Really enjoyed the Wards Report, especially the Engine Charts indicating 2000 production, plant location, bore and stroke, hp and torque, and the engine codes. The LS V-6 is a code 99S. Production for 2000 was 17,637 vs V-8 at 41,154. Total Ford engine production was 4,685,375 but that was all Ford brands. That's alot of iron!
I was quoted 25K for a fully loaded XG300 just over a year ago when they first appeared on our shores. Currently Edmunds list it at $25,494, $22,854 (invoice) with a TMV of $22,650. It seemed larger and was much more luxurious than the Taurus/Sable platform. For 22.6 I'll take it over a Taurus/Sable any day. As for the powertrain warranty, if US manufacturers are that good then why don't they put their money where your mouth is? At least lowly, trailer trash Hyundai is willing to back up their vehicles with full 10 year/100,000 mile warranty!
I've added the LS MANIA 2 registration form to both the LLSOC message board Mania forum and to the Mania 2 link of the LLSOC main page. Please be sure to fill it out and send it in.
Naw, bras won't do it. I was pretty young then, but remember a lot of Lady Bird's campaign was removing billboards. By that token, a large hole for each and every Aztec should do the trick. Of course, they'd have to be filled in, in the interest of safety.
Thx for the response, Stan. I'm with you. A couple of years ago, when I was having severe problems with all three of the automatic transmisssion vehicles for which I was responsible, the LS was a breath of fresh air. I went for it feet first. Never drove a demo, let alone with a manual (as if there were any).
Now I'm a couple of years older. Probably not wiser -- could be less so, given the age thing. A recent European trip helped me put driving into the perspective I was told the original LS was working with. High-speed autobahn driving with a manual, with a (European-favoured) diesel made me feel really good about the original LS concept. . .and really depressed with the ultimate result. . .so far. Maybe it'll all turn out okay.
I guess my friends at Pavilion LM in Austin are up to their old tricks. My rear window crashed a second time about 3 weeks ago. I called the sevice manager and he informed me the part was on backorder and he would call me when the part arrived. After 2 weeks of waiting I called the dealer back. They said they left a message for me and I never called them back (yeah right) but they do have the part. I was talking with the receptionist and she was going over my last repair order which was the first time the window regulators were replaced back in June. She kind of led me to believe that they only replaced one side instead of both sides. My workorder shows 2 regulators replaced with PN's 5427009AA and 5427008AA and both show a description of RR Dr.. The TSB on the LLSOC website does not provide a lot of detail. My question is are there 2 regulators per door or did I only get one side replaced? Both parts were $65 with a labor charge of $49 (45 minutes of labor). I am scheduled to drop the car off Tuesday morning so if any anyone has any info I would appreciate it.
Since there's a TSB covering the replacement of defective window regulators, aren't all replacement costs (parts & labor) covered by L/M, regardless of whether the car is in it's warranty period or not? If not, do the regulators need to fail during the warranty period in order for the costs to be covered? Perhaps someone can explain the cost aspects?
Comments
If Lincoln does not wake up very soon they will miss capitalizing on the wave of reasonably priced, performance luxury vechicles, they helped launch. There are no more 5+ year life cycles like the ones Lincoln enjoyed with their big land yachts. Hope they don't miss the boat.
Fit and finish on my 10/99 build LS8 has been first class, and other than moisture in the headlights, I've had absolutely no trouble whatsoever. Lslincolnsucks, you'll never convince me (or many others on this board) that Lincoln falls short in the quality department.
The full text in on LLSOC under the Recalls/TSBs link on the navigation bar. It calls for installation of a jumper wiring harness.
Brian
P.S. I'd like to see Acura publish their TSBs. And don't tell me that they don't have them. I tolerated a Honda Accord that my wife had for a year. Yes, it was dependable and there were no problems. But it was without a doubt the DULLEST vehicle I have ever had the displeasure of driving. I've also driven most of the Acura/Lexus/Infiniti line and while, in my opinion, they are fine cars, they are soul-less compared to the European makes and compared to the LS.
We all love RWD, but AWD certainly (he said hopefully) is at least as good? Since my recent trip to Europe & introduction to Audi as they're driven rather than marketed, I'm doing some research. I frankly didn't look at Audi's when I was shopping the LS because of perceived reliability issues. Not sure that was accurate, but either way, what do you think?
To address many of the past week's posts, I'm not dumping on the (my) LS. I'm just trying to learn more about one of the bona fide competitors. I've learned a lot about BMW, Lexus & Infiniti over the past couple of years, but never did Audi. Based on much of what I've learned so far, I'll be keeping my LS for awhile.
Audi has very very few dealers. Here in the metro Phoenix area, there's one. If you extend the search to a 200-mile radius, you get up to 2 (count 'em), with the other one being in Tucson. In addition to which, the Audi, even with the Quattro, puts the majority of the weight on the front wheels. The complexity of Quattro & the dual turbo setup (offers those of us who prefer a manual a very attractive option), combined with the scarcity of dealers, doesn't bode well for those who might keep an automobile past the lease or warranty period.
The paint sure looks good (they have a real red) though, and the interiors aren't even in the same zip code with the LS, so I guess we all continue to examine our options.
OTOH, I could spend $2 - 3K on a repaint in a color I like, get the windows fixed, glue back the stuff that's fallen off, and be good to go for several years.
I guess it's the free market at work -- others would consider it whining.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010810/nyf016.html
And I don't have to defer to anyone in regard to prefering RWD. My '96 Impala SS and '00 LS8 Sport are proof positive. I just know that the lack of RWD doesn't automatically disqualify an otherwise good car from serious Sport Sedan capabilities. Esp. an AWDer.
The stats, price, equipment, and value do make the 3.2TL S a serious competitor. It may be bland in base mode, but in Type S it is an acceleration screamer. And don't anyone tell me the 330i isn't a serious LS competitor. The 3 and 5 Series are the epitome of modern sport sedans. The M models for each are nearly the embodiment of sport sedan driving nirvana.
(Oh, and I could say I'm tired of reading about lots of types of posts. But I ain't God nor the censor of this site. If you don't like something, do what I do. Skip it. That isn't too difficult.)
The LS8's engine is quite nice. I love mine. It is almost, if just not quite there, in comparison to the magnificent I-6.
First I heard of the dealer replacing both rear assembles.
When I had the first failure they refused. again this time. And if they have a fix why did the same window fail again.
I must be missing something.
Kevin
The competition is whatever else the individual buyer is considering, for whatever reason. In my case, the toughest competitor for the LS was my (then) current car. The LS had to be good enough to get me to part with my beloved Subaru Legacy and, at the same time, more than double my car payment.
I've expressed some impatience with Lincoln, but, enough. The 300M and Catera have been on the market, mostly unchanged, a lot longer than the LS, and DC and Cadillac are at least as far out in their development schedules as Lincoln.
I'm still ecstatic over the luxury and performance I got for my money, and am optimistic about the future of the LS. Furthermore, if I were shopping for an '02 sport sedan, I'd buy the LS8. I didn't want an "upscale" Honda or Toyota last year, and still don't. And I won't compare Lincoln's current offering with other manufacturers' future plans.
Anyway I ordered my LS Manual on "blind faith", resigning myself to the only Manual, four door, RWD sedan of reasonable size outside of the BMW. AWD sounds nice but complex and heavier and in San Diego I need AWD or 4WD like a fish needs a bicycle. Since I took delivery 7/2000, I have had the "window problem" and that's it. No squeaks, rattles, beeps, or failures. Lots of 60 mph corners with 25 mph signs, four wheel drifts, and outrageous dynamic behavior which I enjoy. Sort of like "Space Mountain" on wheels.
I think the reason some of us disagree on the mission/purpose of the LS and its competitors is that some of us (e.g., myself and maybe more of the LS8 Sport and LS6 Sport manual owners) focus on the Sport Sedan aspect (i.e., the performance of the car in the critical areas of acceleration, braking, handling, & ride), while others (e.g., LS6 auto owners) focus on factors tied to the car's size, platform, price, and status (i.e., in interior room, trunk space, size, RWD/IRS, mid-$30K price, and luxury amenities).
If you focus on the former then any decent Sport Sedan, which would include RWD/FWD/AWD models, is potentially relevant. From a Sport Sedan standpoint, it doesn't (& didn't) matter to me if the 330i's or 530i's trunk is smaller than the LS's or that the rear might be a bit more cramped. If you focus on the latter, then you are quickly narrowing the scope. There just aren't too many RWD platforms as large, heavy, or capable as LS. Some like the TC/CV/GM just aren't as all-around capable while others like the 3 or 5 Series give up interior room and trunk space, while others like Lexus GS or Jag S-type cost a lot more.
Would be interesting to know the sales breakdown of the LS by LS8 Sport, LS8 base, LS6 Sport auto, LS6 base auto, and LS6 Sport manual. I think those buyers who want the sport package will view the LS's competitors a bit broader than those who didn't want the sport package. Maybe the LS6 Sport manual buyers might be the most exclusive since there aren't that many great Sport Sedans available with manual tranny in this price range?
I think the fact that the Catera and 300M have been so slow to change has been noticed by both the car-buying public and automotive press. How much do you read about either any more? Notice how slow sales beceame? And how deep the discouts are on both? That is exactly what began to happen to LS in MY 01 and will get worse in MY 02.
Brian, any insight to this or how involved she will be?
TSB 01-01-02 - Window Regulator Replacement:
"Calls for replacement of both regulators with the new level part so that a repeat trip for repair can be eliminated."
I would advise you to ask your dealer to provide you with a copy of this TSB, and have them read it for themselves. Not being certain when you first experienced this problem, perhaps you did not get the improved regulator when the repair was implemented. It is also possible that your dealer did not correctly obtain the improved regulator or the improved regulator was not available when the repair was done. Either way, this should no longer be the case.
However, I have recently seen a discussion on the LLSOC board indicating that there in now a nation-wide back-order on the regulators, and that FoMoCo has recently changed their policy on replacing both regulators at the same time, although no official word has been conveyed yet. I believe Brian (aka. ls1bmw0) is researching this through his contacts.
It should be noted though, that window regulator failure problem was first brought to Lincoln management's attention through reports on this board (stanny1 I believe). Dick Cupka, then Director of Lincoln Engineering, addressed this issue at LS Mania I in Irvine, CA early this year. Dick explained that the old regulators were being purged from the pipeline at that time, and that the new design was being expedited into service and the replacement part channel. Dick assured us that window regulator failures would not be a "chronic" problem with the LS. The failures being reported now SHOULD only be from early build date vehicles that have not already had TSB 01-01-02 implemented. Hope that helps.
Please, let's not go there.
Stan, there is a blower for the Contour 2.5L. I'll have to tell you who to talk to.
That doesn't mean that Lincoln doesn't care about the board. On the contrary, there are at least fifteen of the key LS engineering managers that regularly "submarine surf" the board to stay in touch with the owners.
Anne will eventually get on the board as soon as she gets up to speed. Her travel schedule is every bit as hectic as Jim's was, so I'm sure her home base time will be limited, at least initially.
The club is checking up on the rear window regulator "national back-order" issue with Lincoln. The TSB clearly states that BOTH regulators are supposed to be replaced. The TSB that is on LLSOC is taken directly from the TSB advisory that is sent out to the dealers. So Kevin, I would suggest you contact your dealer service manager with the TSB in your hand.
Brian
In 1989, the competition was Audi 200 / BMW 535i / Nissan Maxima SE. The SHO tested head-to-head
and beat them all. Pricing? Audi $36K, BMW $45K, Nissan $20K and the SHO $21K.
The SHO was only available in a manual. When an automatic came in 1993, it received a 3.2L engine to
push the torque curve down for the tranny. The manual didn't get the 3.2L engine. Effectively no
change was made to the SHO (five model years). In 1996 the "new" taurus arrived and the manual
ended in MY'95. Seven years of no changes or upgrading. What a surprise that market share faded....
Here the LS has had three MYs and no changes. Rumor has it that changes are promised for MY'05 which
will be six years of no changes, hardly promising. But the competition isn't sitting still, the rumor mill has it
that the A6 will be redesigned for MY'04 and a closer to 50/50 weight distribution is in order. Should this
happen, then the A6 becomes the BMW "killer" and the LS's only marketing attribute will become pricing.
Not a good place to be.
We all know the potential that the LS has but the market place is dictated by follow through, not potential.
An "affordable" BMW is looking less and less likely.
For me - I am thinking toward lease end and considering two options. 1: spend more money and get a CLK430. I drove this car a couple months ago and just about needed a panty liner. 2: Get a full size truck F150 or C1500 and spend the savings on my racing hobby (SCCA in a 87 Fiero GT). Kinda stupid, but my point is that comparisons are a pretty individual thing. The CLK and a truck have nothing in common except for me.
Personally, if I were just comparing the LS "in general", I would compare 4 door sport sedans in the $25 - 45k price range. Period. There's a lot of models in that set, a lot that I wouldn't look at, and very few that I would even consider owning. I suppose that puts me with giowa and scottc8 on this one.
By the way, I traded in a 94 Bonneville for my LS. And I'm pretty fickle about cars (see my post on the "About the members" forum. I've averaged around a car a year and they include all sorts of cars and trucks.
At least have the decency to say that my business car, a '00 Hyundai Sonata GLS, is a 170 hp 2.5L V-6, 5-speed manual, with 4-wheel disc brakes and ABS/traction control. It has side airbags, pretensioners, leather, sunroof, CD/cass, 4 full headrests, heated mirrors, split-fold rear seat, etc. And I only paid $18,400. (I've had her up to 120 mph. Surprisingly composed. Guessing she'll do about 124 mph.)In the first 24,000 miles she has had a single repair. A burned out headlight. Plus a MAF recall. Both replaced under warranty. I don't want to compare that to my trouble-prone LS8 Sport, which lived in the shop the first 16 months and 25,000 miles.
If you are ever in Omaha area, I'll race you in all three of my cars. I might beat you with each of them.
Guess Lexus should've gone back to school before the put their I-6 in the IS300? And is General Motors just wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on their new 4.2L 270 hp I-6? Isn't it interesting that even Consumer Reports got their 4,660 pound GMC Envoy SUV with 4-speed auto to go 0-60 in 8.2 seconds with it? Odd that the car press has been saying nothing but great things about both of these I-6s!
stanny1: feel free to leap in. Didn't you have the Toyota I-6 in the mid-80s 4-door sedan, Cressida?
I will take notice of the TSB and inform the dealer of same.
Hopefully with this info I can get satisfaction..
Thanks
Kevin
BTW: My wife got an Infiniti I30 because she liked the Millenium Jade Green color better than anything Hyundai was offering, otherwise we might just own one!
I'll try to check my satirical comments. Or be more obvious
The CTS forum is a nice chuckle. The car isn't out yet and their beating it up! Interesting post comparing GM plastic to Lego blocks. The BMW forum, is as usual, a BMW forum, except there were a couple of comments by the host regarding the LS that I thought giowa might want to have a go at.
this may be the one you saw.
http://www.wardsauto.com/default.asp?action=en
(Very slow loading site)
Total Ford engine production was 4,685,375 but that was all Ford brands. That's alot of iron!
Brian
Something like Lady-Bird Johnson's beautification of American highways campaign.
Mark
Thx for the response, Stan. I'm with you. A couple of years ago, when I was having severe problems with all three of the automatic transmisssion vehicles for which I was responsible, the LS was a breath of fresh air. I went for it feet first. Never drove a demo, let alone with a manual (as if there were any).
Now I'm a couple of years older. Probably not wiser -- could be less so, given the age thing. A recent European trip helped me put driving into the perspective I was told the original LS was working with. High-speed autobahn driving with a manual, with a (European-favoured) diesel made me feel really good about the original LS concept. . .and really depressed with the ultimate result. . .so far. Maybe it'll all turn out okay.
Hide and watch.