Chrysler 300M

bluesky999

This car has the barn-door front end like the 300C, perhaps it's its mother?

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/detroit/highlights/h1- 4-lincoln-navicross.html

And here's another view of the G6.

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/detroit/highlights/h1- 3-pontiac-g6.html

I imagine I'll get roasted on this board for preferring a smaller GM vehicle to the 300C.

bluesky999

http://www.new-cars.com/concept/2003/pontiac-g6-concept.html

daytona3

I really like the G6 and am thrilled it will be the next Grand Am, or something like it. I also prefer it to the 300 C by a large margin as well.

As for Volvo, GM should not be working with them. Ford might get a little upset being that Ford owns Volvo. Maybe you are thinking of Saab.

As for quality, I don't know. The old Chrysler was making strides in this department long before Daimler showed up. It remains to be seen whether Mercedes parts will continue that trend.

emale

you guys keep talking about mercedes parts....well, mercedes doesn't really make that many parts. they have suppliers just like everyone else. now, i would imagine that mercedes, given it's a premium brand, specifies higher quality from is suppliers. however, that said, the recent rash of "problems" with mercedes quality has been blamed on suppliers...so whatever!

pster

Awesome design! Are they really going to build this? If so, when?

indydriver

Golfnut: (great handle BTW-describes me as well). I am up to 105K miles on my '99. My service/repair record has been well chronicled here so I won't bore everyone by repeating it. If you're interested, email me.

Dustin: Success will be measured by the bottom line, as always (just like supermodels). It was interesting how the positive tone of the professional auto scribe in Fastdriver's article contrasts with many M owner's negative one. I think there is more working here than just objective opinion of the new car. We all love our M's styling and there's no question the 300C is a real departure from what went before. Apparently, the general expectation of most M owners here was that there would be much more of a family resemblence. But I truly believe that when this car is available to be seen, sat in and especially driven, the general auto buying public will be very excited about it.

Bluesky: No question the G6 is a sleek design. Is there any doubt that Lutz is responsible (where did he come from?). Personally, as an American who wants the economy to start crankin', I'm glad to see the General making progress. They need to because their car offerings in the coupe and four door sedan markets are awful. I don't have a history of GM reliability but I have rented a lot of GM sedans and they are, quite frankly, crap. Hence my ownership of the M.

russklass

I drove my '99 300M 70,000 miles with NO problems.
I have 62,000 miles on the '01, also with NO problems.
Soon will have a '04 Pacifica with the same engine, and hope for similar performance!

kosh_2258

DC is making a big deal about the "Hemi(R)" engine but look at it:

Cast iron block, two valves per cylinder, and push rods. Cheaper to manufacture they say. Well of course it is, look at how simplistic it is. It's a throw back to ancient times.

Look at how they're pushing the "Hemi(R)":
Ads on TV with a couple of hick rednecks acting like doofuses (yes, the ads ARE funny) drag racing a RAM pickup, pulling a 68 or 69 Charger (sorry I haven't look close enough to see the exact year) with a "Hemi(R)" - the "heritage ploy". Point being the ad is for a truck, indirectly pushing the "Hemi(R)" as a truck engine and drilling that pretty hard into the public mind.

Now DC is trying to convince us that the 300 is supposed to be a "premium" brand and what does it use for an engine? The "Hemi(R)"! What is the "Hemi(R)" in the public's mind? A truck engine. A truck engine in a $40k "premium" car, you say? Oh that ought to really have the Cadillac, Lexus, and Volvo buyers just flocking to the Chrysler show rooms. Sorry, but the "Hemi(R)" is an over hyped, lame excuse for an engine especially in the market this car will compete.

[Sarcasm mode on]
Much as I hate saying it, they'd have been better off putting a MB V8 in this thing and calling it the "Chrysler 300" by Mercedes Benz.

"Hemi" is a registered trademark of DaimlerChrysler.
[Sarcasm mode off]

bluesky999

I've seen the G6 in a couple of the car magazines, and as potential replacement for the Grand Am it should come out around '05. That said, Pontiac hasn't firmly commited to it yet, but it was obviously presented at the NY show, and they've spent a lot of money to develop it so far, so I think it's only logical that is stands of good chance of making production.

One thing that amazes me is that it has a very upscale interior. Pontiacs I'd seen recently had pretty drab, low-rent interiors. I'm hoping that under Lutz they'll improve interiors, safety (GM has really sucked at those ratings), and put a good dose of sound deadening. This reminds me of the Altima, which looked very nice in the photos, but when produced had a low-rent interior made out of very cheap plastics, and was overly LOUD to boot.

Right now my favorite potential next car is the Accord coupe, 4cylinder, which has surprising acceleration, luxury, and fuel economy of 24/34. But the G6 is much more beautiful and I only hope it can be executed with some hard American sweat to the details.

fastdriver

indydriver-

"Wow, a positive article by"

LOL.... I post them as I find them- good, bad or indifferent. It is interesting to see how this 300C has evoked much discussion here both pro and con.

I guess time will tell how it is accepted by the public once it's in the showroom.

scottjohnson-

Why do you think Ford is dropping the T-Bird? Price? It draws my attention also whenever I see one. If I could afford several cars in my garage, the T-Bird would be one of them. Having owned convertibles in the past, I agree that a convertible is a great ride on a sunny day.

fastdriver

fastdriver

I just found these articles-

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0304/26/b01-146645.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0304/26/autos-145159.htm

fastdriver

scottjohnson

Great comeback! No, my wife is the same age I am. Your question made me laugh, though. She had wanted a convertible since the mid-80's. She was eyeing topless Mustangs back in '85, it just took us this long to finally buy one.

scottjohnson

I think Ford slit their own throats on the t-bird. When the concept retrobird came out I really wanted one and I planned to replace my '85 t-bird with one. Then word came out that they wouldn't be out until '02 and the price would be about $10K higher than predicted. That's when I became a very happy '00 300M owner.

When the '02 birds were finally announced, I went to the dealer and asked about it. They said "we only get four and they're all spoken for so forget about it for a year". Not exactly a way to encourage buyers. When the birds finally did start to come out in more than a trickle, EVERY dealer marked them up 5-10K over sticker.

The bird I bought was actually an extra one the local dealer bought from a dealer in Washington and they paid that dealer 2K over sticker. It sat on their lot for over a month until I bought it - at 2K over sticker. I don't expect to EVER pay over sticker for another vehicle, but my wife really, really wanted to car and so did I.

By the time there were enough birds on the market, the economy turned down. And all the prospective buyers are conditioned to think of the birds as extremely over-priced and hard to come by. I think that is why sales have been disappointing. Ford has missed the market conditions twice in a row.

Having said all that, we really love this car. It turns heads, is comfortable, and just fits us.

golfnut5

Thanks for comments on dependability. Any comments on using 87 octane versus 89 octane (believe owners manual calls for 89 octane)?

pster

Absolutely no problems Russ? That is almost statistically impossible.

mikeyjohn

Just use 87 octane, you are wasting your money on any other grades, and this comes from the experts.
I am not talking about the special which you could get a few more HP because of that engine. All I use is regular and have had no problems.

kosh_2258

Actually I've read the G6 aka Grand Am is coming out this fall as a 2003. It will be built on the Epsilon platform. 2 3.5 V6 engines offered: Base and supercharged. 19" wheels and tires will be an option. A GXP version is anticipated with a hotter engine upgraded brakes, suspension, and larger wheels/tires.

The car will be offered in 3 flavors:
Sedan this fall.
2 door coupe, spring 2003.
retractable hardtop convertible, fall 2005.

Source: Automobile Magazine, May 03 pg. 49

I'll bet somewhere on that G6 is written: "Lutz was here!"

What the M's coulda, shoulda, woulda been if he was still running the real Chrysler Corporation.

dustinnewton

Well stated, but I do disagree a little on one point. I think the main problem with 300M owner's general dislike of the C is that Chrysler teased us (true, they never confirmed that the concept WOULD be the next 300 car) with an absolutely BEAUTIFUL automobile, the 300 Hemi C concept, then made a complete about-face and presented the 300C as truth. I never heard one disparaging comment (from friends, board posters, the press, etc.) about the 300 Hemi C. Everyone I showed the photo to (I have a concept book, the one with hi-res images and slides, for a year or so back) thought it was an awesome car and several said they would buy it in a heartbeat (as did I) if it looked like the concept and retained the performance features when production time came. The crossfire's front end was changed a little (I personally liked the concept better) but what was most disappointing about it was that they crippled the engine from what was spec'd in the concept. I know of one sale that was lost for that very reason. That being said, I assumed that it would have smaller tires/wheels than the 20's and 21's on the concept, and probably a less powerful engine. No problem, it would still be a beautiful car, and I could put my own wheel/tire combo on to get the concept look. I can live without a Hemi engine personally. It's just that the 300C is NOTHING at all like the car we thought was coming down the line. Chrysler desinged the 300M as an "old folks car" like a Caddy. I had people laugh at me when I told them I was getting one. I'm 33 and everyone thought that I was going on 75! Chrysler should have taken cues from this board, the Chrylser 300M Enthusiasts Club members mods, and the wild 300M's on cardomain.com and realized that it was a car with broad appeal. The entry-level sport-lux market is on fire now, and the 300 Hemi C would have poured gas on the flames! Instead, Chrysler is releasing the 300C which the younger crowd won't like and the more mature crowd (the ones with the money to buy one with what I assume will be a hefty price), will be buying the Lexus, Mercedes, and BWM lines. I'm confused as to who DC thinks will buy the car. I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either and I can't see spending 40-45K or more on a C when the lineup for that class of cars is already choked with contenders and sales are slipping rapidly. It seems that DC has ignored suggestions from M owners for improvments and the public's reaction towards the 300 Hemi C, and pulled something out of thin air! All that said, they won't listen to my rants, and I guess I will have to come up with another vehicle to purchase next year. We were going to look at Pacificas soon, but with the M's engine leaving its' primary vehicle, I'm hesitant now. It will only be in the Pacifica and the Intrepid R/T. There are so many other "between a mini van and a car" models coming out now, the Pacifica is far from alone in that segment and I'm wondering if it will survive pas a couple of years.

fastdriver

dustinnewton-

LOL... Even I liked the original 300 concept car! Not that I would have ever bought one, but I thought it would be a SURE winner and a great seller!

Oh well, so much for dreams. Guess Deiter doesn't read the comments in that other board either even though he is supposedly a member. I have NO clue who will be interested in the 300C. I cannot imagine anyone paying $40,000+ for a Chrysler, HEMI or no HEMI. I don't think too many people in the snowbelt areas will be looking for a rear drive HEMI. As for the Pacifica- talk about BLAND looking! UGH! I don't think it will be around long either. It's a station wagon no matter what they want to classify it as.

fastdriver

daytona3

I take it that when people are talking about the 300 Hemi C concept, they are talking about the convertible, correct? There was also another 300 concept car in the early 90s that used the Viper's V-10 for motivation, just to let others know.

I guess I'm having a hard time blaming "Chrysler" for failing to connect to the current 300M enthusiasts, because the Chrysler that made the 300M is not around anymore. Chrysler Corporation, with Tom Gale and Robert Lutz, designed and engineered the 300M. Now, I wasn't exactly thrilled with the 300M, being that it was nothing like the original 300 letter cars, BUT, it was a nice looking car that drew great reviews, and probably would have been one of the few Chrysler vehicles I would have bought. Robert Lutz is now at GM, where I think he has brought some old Chrysler styling and thinking to the General. Tom Gale and Neil Walling (sp?), who I both expect styled the 300 Hemi C convertible are long gone, as are other top Chrysler employees. I have talked with some Chrysler people, and they told me that it isn't the same Chrysler. Daimler took over. Why do I mention this? Because everybody is blaming Chrysler for screwing up the next 300, when I think Daimler is the one that is giving you guys the 300C concept car. There was an earth shattering move in 1998 that I feel destroyed the Chrysler culture that allowed the 300M, 300 Hemi C concept, Charger R/T concept, PT Cruiser, and Viper to see the light of day. Most of the people who brought those cars out are no longer at "Chrysler". Chrysler is becoming nothing more than a badge. I know many people could care less, they just want a great looking, reliable car. That is fine, but if you want to know why the 300C is a totally different car (in styling and concept) than the 300M, you only have to look at the beginning name of the company to figure it out.

daytona3

I guess this should be discussed on the Pacifica board, but I'm surprised people are talking about it being a short timer. It is a nice looking vehicle, but are there that many people who want to spend $32,000 - $40,000 for what some people call a station wagon? What kind of effect will the Pacifica have on the Chrysler/Dodge minivans that are currently losing market share? What kind of effect are the minivan incentives having on the more expensive Pacificas?

I figure the Pacifica will sell pretty well, but I'm not buying the idea that it is a segment buster. Maybe the Pacifica will be a short timer, but I figure Daimler put a lot of time and money into this vehicle, and they won't give up. I don't know what will happen. The marketplace will decide its fate.

bluesky999

Thanks for the info, Kosh; that the G6 should be coming out in the fall amazes me. I question whether it will indeed have a 3.5 engine; GM is coming out with one that I read will be put in the Cadillac CTS as its first installation. It is supposed to be about 255 HP, dual cams, variable valve timing, etc. It's just coming out, so I'll be surprised if they supercharge it already, but I hope the article was right. Anyway, thanks again. Should be a nice package as about 185 inches is a nice tossable size that is still practical for luggage and family members. The 'M is actually bigger and heavier than I need.

russklass

pster: I bought the $0.00 deductible, extended warranty for both the '99 & '01 300Ms and NEVER USED EITHER ONE in 130,000 miles. So much for stastics! Reminds me of the statician who drowned in a creek with an average depth of 6"!
golfnut5: Use 87 octane! I used 89 in my '99 300M for a month, and then switched to 87 for the next 129,000 miles.
May you have the same good luck with your M as I did with my 2!

ruski

That was this car

ruski

But why didn't they make it look exactly the same? Chronos looks so much better than the recent 300C concept.

kosh_2258

Chrysler Corporation is gone and has been replaced by something that bears no resemblance what so ever to that company.

For Daimler to consolidate its control over Chrysler they had to systematically kill any traces of the Chrysler Corporation identity so they could implement the outdated Daimler culture and its way of doing business.

It appears, on the surface anyway, that DaimlerChrysler is turning the Chrysler portion into nothing more than a low rent Mercedes Benz clone. Sort of like Bentley used to be to Rolls-Royce. Bentley's resembled RR's but with hotter engines and more agressive underpinnings. In this case the cars have MB underpinnings but don't resemble the father. Witness the Crossfire.

After seeing the Pacifica, my reaction is that it simply isn't unique enough to differentiate itself in the marketplace. And it's hobbled by being pretty heavy and underpowered. I don't think it's bad, but it's by no means good enough to grab significant market share either.

cmyers300m

What I thought was funny is that DC expects to sell 100,000 units/year. Not likely. Dealers around me here have a dozen or more in stock and they aren't moving fast....so look for the discounting to start and resales to suck.

dustinnewton

Regarding your comments about the 300 C and Hemi C, VERY well stated! I have never been enthused with the thought of MB styling coming to the Chrysler line. I am not a Mercedes fan. Maybe this will just be a hiccup and things will get better. Of course, I may be completely out of touch and this direction might spread like wildfire!

300michael

They got everything wrong. Before the takeover Chrysler had the most beautful car line. Now that is gone. They picked the worst looking design possible. True MB never took the hint from the owners, It is funny that my car is more popular with the younger segment then the older buyers. The Special was to help here but fell flat. Now the death blow.
The Pacifica need a better engine to stay competitive with the other so called wagons out there. It is sad they took design back to the 60's. anong with engine design.

300michael

G6 is an improvement (would not be a buyer due to design issues), and I am glad in the direction they are going. As others have stated they need to work alot on their interiors though. What will the price be??????

intrepidspirit

After reading the posts about the Pacifica, I though some of you might find it interesting that the dealer ads for the weekend (here in Southern California where the Pacifica was designed!)indicated that they had several in stock and were discounting from MSRP...

blonda

The dealer near me has at least 6 Pacifica's sitting in front -- being that it's primarily a Dodge dealer that's a lot IMO. Never saw that many M's out there. I even got an email from them today asking me to check out the new Pacifica's. They look a lot like the BMW wagon to me. Since SUV's are so popular in So CA, I can't see them going like hotcakes out here -- not at the price they are asking since you can by a pretty nice and bigger SUV for about the same.

G6 - I don't really care for it. I can't put my finger on it right now, but it reminds me of something else I've seen (sort of a been there done that thing) -- kinda like the the early Saturn coupes. I'm not knocking Grand Ams though -- I had an 88 and it was a great car for it's price range. One of those "bang for your bucks" type of cars...Just like the M is

golfnut5

What kind of highway MPG are you getting on your 300M. I haven't purchased yet, but getting close. Plan to buy an 04 300M (not special) in the near future. My only concern is Chrysler quality, but I believe I will take my chances. Seems most Chrysler dealers have no more than two to four new M's in inventory at any given time. Any other car and I would have ten to choose from.

scottjohnson

I consistently get 27-28 mpg with highway driving. This morning was the first time I've averaged over 30 mpg over a 100 mile drive (30.1 mpg). The funny thing is, I did it on 87 octane. Most of the time I've used the 89 and I actually asked for it this morning. When I looked over, the attendant (can't pump your own in Oregon) must have gone on autopilot and 87 was going in.

So much for the "you get better mileage with 89 octane" theory. I'd still swear that the engine has more grunt during fast acceleration with the 89, but now I'm kind of wondering.

scottjohnson

While my tank was filling, I noticed the car on the other side of the pumps start to slowly roll forward. This was a BAD thing because the nozzle was still in the filler spout. The driver had her head down looking at something inside the car and was oblivious. Here in Oregon we can't pump our own gas so the other driver had never gotten out of her car.

I'm sitting in my 300M wondering if she is ever going to hit the brakes. Or will my marvelous Chrysler and possibly me with it, get covered in gas or even end up in a nasty fireball like the movies.

Her Subaru just kept rolling for about 20 feet. At about 10 feet, the hose broke away from the pump and was dragging behind. She never did look up!

I'm extremely pleased with the engineers who designed the break-away features in the system! I didn't even know they existed until today. I didn't see a single drop of gas get spilled anywhere. The station manager just had the attendant recover the hose, put the gas cap back on, and send her on her way.

It was quite a few miles before my heart rate was back to normal!

russklass

For 130,000 miles in 2 300Ms I have averaged 22MPG overall...real world, real number.

ruski

I think people are supposed to be fined for breaking the gas hose.

ruski

I was just flipping channels and flipped to Speed. They had this show Autoline Detroit. They talked about the new Solara and DVD Audio. Then they showed that would be on next week - 300C. And the played a very short clip showing 300C rolling on a highway. It actually did not look too bad on TV.

emale

i find it interesting that some of you guys think the 300c is styled like a mercedes. imo, it certainly doesn't look like any recent mercedes i can think of. maybe one from say 5 or more years ago, but not today. the new mercedes are much more sleeker looking than the 300c...

daytona3

Thank you for the kind words. I thought I might get tarred and feathered over those comments, since I'm not a huge fan of the takeover. I base my thoughts and beliefs from people I have talked to inside of Chrysler. For the people that like to see the old Chrysler way of doing things, you might be disappointed. For the others who love Mercedes and Mitsubishi, you might be thrilled with the future Chryslers and Dodges. These Chrysler insiders have pretty much mentioned to me that Chrysler Corporation died in 1998. Based on their conversations, I can see why they want to leave the company as soon as possible.

The LH cars are an end of an era (as mentioned by Kosh). Get ready for the LX era.

daytona3

I can see it. It wasn't my first thought, but the more my dad looked at it, the more he noticed how much it looked like the old diesel Mercedes cars of yesterday. I also noticed some 300M owners mentioning it in the 300M Enthusiast site, so I began to agree as well.

The ironic thing is that Chrysler used to have the swoopy, sleeker cars, while Mercedes was hammered for having boring looking cars. Now, it is flip-flopped.

bluesky999

300michael, As this is the epsilon platform and a potential Grand Am replacement, expect high teens to low 20s. Note that in one of the links the interior was shown and it was surprisingly sophisticated and upscale for a GMer; that's a good part of what got me revved. Not sure what you mean by design issues that are unsatisfactory.

I think it's beautiful, and I also like the looks of the new Maxima a lot, which BTW looks better in person than in the pix. Sleek and muscular is what I like; I guess that's why I own an 'M.

illini4

Received my June Autoweek yesterday. It has an article on the 300C, and they seem to like it. A Chrysler spokesman quote indicated that the production car's name will be 300C rather than 300N, since this car is obviously not something that evolved from the M. He noted that the new 300C would be introduced 50 years after the C300, and that is the tie-in.

golfnut5

Thanks for info. Hope to purchase a 04 300M within next two months.

kosh_2258

That doesn't surprise me really. Jean Jennings, the editor, is a former Chrysler employee and that magazine tends to favor the upmarket items regardless.

Jenning's brother, Paul Lienert wrote the Detroit News article on the C. Not surprisingly he likes it as well.

pster

Russ, I'm glad you have not had any problems whatsoever in 130M miles. Sorry you had to buy the extended warranties. Being in finance, I can assure you that "expectations" have as much influence over behavior as past performance. Consequently, I would expect you won't buy another extended warrantly contract? If you are.....I rest my case. Until Chrysler lowers the buying public's expectations of future failures and repair expenses, it hasn't improved. My expectations of failure are simply higher based on actual experience. In fact, my expectations of failure were lower than yours on my 1999 300M purchase as I did not buy a service contract.

llbean30

Hi fellow 300m fans, I just recieved my basslink today, great price and delivery time from the ebay seller I bought it from(car stereo 2000).Can anyone help me out on this question. Tapping into the speaker wires at the amp in the trunk, is it best to use only the rears or use the front speaker wires also.Really appreciate any insight into this install anyone can give me.
Thanks--Luck to all--Jack

300michael

design issues. Dash lighting, plastic cladding(seem to correct on this car) dash design (no theam, looks cookie cutter design) cheap plastics. to name some. I would say in another 5 years they could be a possibility.
Nissan has come along the most in design in recient years. I was never a fan of over and under headlamps. and those Azzera (not sure how they are spelled) tail lamps are not for me. I do like the 02 300M tail lamps. especially if they get rid of the amber part.

300michael

I have my 99 300M and I can't see getting another newer one if I were to replace this one. For two reasons. One I do not like buying a last year model, and the new ones are not that different from my 99 to justify the cost. The 300C is definetly out because of the looks and engine. I was hopeing they would do the hemi with 4 valves and use the latest technology. Instead it is just like the 60's version. This of one of the first years that I would really have to search for a new car, because nothing really stands out for me. Don't let me down 300M, you will have to last me at least another 5-6 years. Of course if the stock market takes off I can get my XK8.

bigmike5

Just got back from a trip to Houston for the Shell Houston Open where Freddy Couples pulled a retro and got zoned in for 4 days and won it. Fabulous effort. Anyway, drove the wifes 00 Eldo for the trip and averaged just a shade under 29 mpg with that big Northstar 8. Best I can do in my 99M is 27 on a good day.

With that said I found my new Automobile mag waiting when I got home from 10 days away. It had a big article on the 300C and also on the faux-Hemi engine. The explanation for the new letter for the car was amusing. But as I visualized all those old diesel MB cars of a decade or two ago I thought that they shouldn't make this a letter car. Give it a new name, and then it hit me, how about the "Menopause?" That name would jibe with its "matronly" appearance, would give it the "age" and dignity it deserves, would highlight its old MB diesel underpinnings, and stop the arguments over New Yorker, Imperial or 300N. Clearly, the writer of the article has not visited this site to get crowd reaction from "loyal" DC owners of the M, who were anxiously awaiting a new brilliant arrival.

I also resent the implication that this new 300 is an "older person's" car, I'm older and wouldn't even consider it given its boxy Buick like appearance and now that I know the Hemi is a tricked-up version of the real Hemi, no way.