The other night, while watching the news, I think I figured out who will be buying the 300C- The US Government.
They like black, "stately-looking", maybe in your face, cars. With a HEMI engine, it will be good for fast get-a-ways if necessary- IF the speed senors don't fail!
They will be focusing on offerings from Maserati and Mini, but I'm hoping they will at least have a shot of the C so I can see it in something other than a pic on the Internet. I plan on watching tonight.
Intrepidspirit - Plenty of Pacificas at a discount here in Alabama as well! Even with a discount they still aren't cheap!!
Michael, your post reflects my position exactly, except that I can't wait much longer to replace my 1999 300M due to horrific parts failures and repair expenses. When my 300M is running, I love it. But more and more I am anxious about another failure which makes ownership no longer any fun. I want a 4 door mid-tolarge size car with a stiffer suspension, a good engine 250HP+, and great design. I won't spend more than $30M for a car. Or....maybe I'll have a later in life mid-life crisis and get the next Mustang...such a sweeeet design! If you had to replace your 300M right now, what would you get?
"If you had to replace your 300M right now, what would you get?" Now that's the dilemma in a nutshell, isn't it?
I have been totally satisfied with both my 300Ms, BUT I am very pi**ed at Chrysler for the way they have decontented the recent models, as well as not improving them. After 130,000 miles in 300Ms I'm ready for a change, but where can you find all the attributes of a 300M at a comparable price? Anything close in features and price is too small, too dull, etc, you get the idea... My lease is up, I must do something, and the only vehicle that seems to meet my requirements is the Pacifica. If I can get one at invoice I will probably bite the bullet and do so.
Congratulations on the new BassLink. I have had mine about 1.5 years, with no trouble. To find a useful hookup guide, go to the 300M Enthusiasts site. There should be a wiring color code guide for the standard and the Premium units. I believe the package shelf speakers are bass only. I asked that the dealer hook up the other two connections so that some bass was provided when the front/rear fader was used. I don't think it works well in "front only" mode. Where are you going to locate the unit? I place mine right up against the passenger side of the trunk, with the unit facing the drivers side, slightly angled to the rear. Leaving one leg unbolted, the spare tire can still be removed. Start with the bass sensitivity set about 10 o'clock and adjust to your preference. This weekend I drove the car to a Scout campout. On the way back I turned on the unit and was greeted by a roaring noise. It seems some of the Scouts thought it would be funny to turn the gain all the way up!
.....but $36M isn't $30M. Nissan's designs don't rock me much at all, although the performance characteristics are impressive. Nissan's new silver plastic dash treatments just downright suck (the owner's will be howling when they get scratched).
The Chrysler 300M was and is in my opinion the most advanced and innovative sedan design there is. The Pacifica is to me just another station wagon with a nav/dvd system. Yawn.....I want a 4 door sedan with enduring style. I did see a very, very nice looking car today....a 2 door Acura CL "S" I think it was......extremely neat and tight design lines...smooth...unadorned....looks like it is built well.
I saw the new Maxima at the L-ville car show, the dealer said they just got one in, but I didn't give it much of a look. Wish I had, because the TV ads make it look a lot like the M, but with more of a rounded back end, kind of hatchback looking. Anyway, I think it looks pretty good and it is supposed to be fast. I was more interested in the Z and G35 Coupe [which I had not yet seen] so I passed it by. The Z was ok to sit in but the G35 seats were very uncomfortable, so I didn't spend much time in that puppy. I am still waiting to see a Crossfire in the flesh. The 300C? provokes no interest. I am leaning toward a 03 Vette, but want to keep the M too for when more interior and trunk space is needed. My wife says "Two cars for you,...over my dead body." Which also explains why I would need the extra trunk space in the M.
I already got it...a 2003M! This replaces my 2000M which was leased. My wife drives a 2001M.
Before I purchased the 2003M, I gave my wife the opportunity to replace her M and I would take over hers. She looked at a few, but nothing stood out for her. I also looked at other cars before my latest purchase and I could not find anything that satisfied me in terms of price, value and styling.
The average price paid for both of our M's is less than $25,400 each. And with the 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty, this was the most satisfying choice available to me. Value is very important to me and I find driving the 300M to be an exciting, satisfying experience.
So, I didn't have the blinders on, this was just the right car for me at this time. Besides, while the 300C will fade into oblivion, the 300M is destined to become a classic!
Well the telling tale is the engines HP/liter output.
A 5.7 translates to about 350ci which works out to about .98 hp/ci or 61 hp/liter which by today's standards isn't that great. The OHC 4.7 HO V8 (287ci) does 55 hp/liter.
The 3.5 puts out 250-255hp which works out to around 72 hp/liter. Or 214 ci which works out to about 1.18 hp/ci.
Compared to the 5.9 V8 it replaces the Hemi looks good, but the 5.9 engine was 30+ years old. Against contemporary engine designs the new Hemi isn't that great. The new Hemi's claim to fame is the torque, not the hp. If it matched the 3.5's HP output per liter it would be putting out about 410hp.
I too like the Nissan performance numbers but styling is Dull. I agree the cost I plan is going to be around 30K but there is nothing in the market place that says "Buy Me, I am for you" like the second generation LH cars did. I do like wagons (my first was a 61 Rambler classic) It was a great car. I also want Automatic (I never liked stick shifts) simular to the auto stick, because I left foot brake. After this year the Jag XK models will be the only great looking cars in production left. I guess, I will just have to save my money.
I am starting to look for a second vehicle. Something like a Model A. Last year the family wanted me to buy a (don't laugh) 1927 Ford dump truck. It was in great shape, but top speed was 36 mph. I would have had a fun time driving it from Paso Robles to Phoenix. Not to mention the gas (trying to find some for this).
>A 5.7 translates to about 350ci which works out to about .98 hp/ci or 61 hp/liter which by today's standards isn't that great.
This is a 2 valves per cylinder, pushrod design. A comparison to an overhead cam, 4 valves per cylinder isn't valid or fair. When you campare to similar stock "muscle car" engines from the '70s you'll find the new hemi is right up there, partially thanks to advanced fuel injection technology. Note of interest; a new Viper at 502 cu in and 500 hp is also near 1:1, at .996. Again, 2 valves/cylinder pushrod.
actually the hemi is 5.65l and 345 cubes in size...so it makes 1hp/cube. not all that awesome today, but chrysler engineers have said just a little massaging and this beast will produce 400hp. without expensive things such as variable valve timing, etc...
fastdriver,
per your remark about speed sensors, the 300c will have a mercedes tranny and not a chrysler tranny...
Wire2, Yes, it IS fair because the market the 300C is going to be competing in is almost exclusively populated with multi-valve OHC engines and it will be judged against those cars. My point still stands that the Hemi hype and Hemi reality are two different things. The engine is cheap to produce and that was the single biggest driver to it being used. Your point simply reinforces the fact that two valve per, pushrod engines aren't really very efficient power producers overall. It takes brute displacement to generate signficant power from them. They are more efficient from a manufacturing cost perspective, but that's it. Call it a hidden decontenting.
emale, I rounded my numbers the way car companies typically do for displacement. I should have rounded .98 to 1 hp too. You can massage any engine to output more horsepower. The only fair comparison is to look at an engine's mass production optimized stock output. Sure DC can pump more ponies out of it but there will be a price attached to that for the consumer.
call it what you want but the hemi is an elegant and efficient design that easily keeps pace or even surpasses other designs that may be considered more advanced from a technological standpoint. whether it will "play" well to the crowd that expects complex DOHC, variable valve timing in their 40k plus car, i don't know. and will anyone pay 40k for a chrysler...hard to say.
as for the hemi itself, sure there is marketing hype about it. but it is delivering the goods. just ask the guys who have them in their trucks. i believe it was kenne belle who tested a hemi and discovered that it produces more rwhp than any other truck v8 they've ever tested (including the 8.1L gm v8). that's nothing to sneeze at! as long as the hemi delivers on its promise, what's the problem?
one last note, several mags testers have surmised that chrysler is low balling the current hemi's output (meaning that it feels like it even has more powr/torque than what is currently advertised.
anyway, does more valves per cylinder, overhead cams mean better motor? doesn't to me as long as the performance is there!
If your looking for a CLS, better hurry for a new one. Acura killed it. CL Production stops in June/July. All 6 speeds have been built, & are out for sale.
In the trucks this engine is certainly more than competitive - torque is king in that application and it certainly has gobs of that.
But the rules haven't changed about valve train mass and having to overcome inertia. There's a signficant difference between rotational and reciprocating inertia - the fundamental one between OHC's and pushrods.
The day I see Mercedes reverting back to pushrods in their car engines is the day I'll re-evaluate the merits of pushrods.
I've seen a couple new Maximas on the road already out here. Best looking Maxima so far IMO (I never liked the others but this one is of course appealing because it's similar to the M). Sort of reminds me of what the offspring would be of a 300M and a Passat. The Passat influence being the rounded cab. This is the part I don't like...rounded top blending in with an angled rear. Rear windshield should be more sloped like the 300M. Still not a bad looking car though.
CLS - I can't believe Acura is dumping it. It's the nicest looking car they have.
Just buy one of those antiques and drop a hot rod engine in it. My father in law has 3 aready and working on another. Keeps him in the garage night and day --but I think he likes it that way... :-)
why can't simple = elegant?? i don't think there is some rule out there saying that something has to be complex to be elegant. the hemi's simple design stands on its own merits without a doubt.
and i agree, torque is where it's at. doesn't matter if the application is car or truck.
but, i'd also agree that we live in a world where we are told and believe that more is better. therefore i'm sure 32 valve heads and twin cams will always rule in the minds of those who don't get it...
Simple can be elegant, but not necessarily so. There can be elegance in complexity too, it's a matter of how well it solves a given problem.
If the objective is to wring every ounce of cost out of a process and product then it's probably an elegant solution. If the objective is to wring the most output per unit of displacement out of the engine then no, it isn't elegant - it's wasteful.
I thought the HEMI engine that Chrysler keeps referring to was an updated, modern engine, and they were just using the retro HEMI moniker for marketing purposes, as well perhaps having actual hemispherical combustion chambers/pistons? Is the 5.7 HEMI V8 really an old design that they are going to put in a modern car? I was a little confused by very highly technical posts about this......liters per cubic zirconia per oz or something like that.
I have already purchased my replacement for the 300 even though I still have it. I purchased an Infiniti fx35 It offered everything I was looking for and more utility than the 300 or any other sedan. Also it out performs the 300 in every category except the skidpad.
The 5.7 Hemi is "clean sheet" design, not a rehash of anything old in that it doesn't make use of any existing engine.
My argument is that it's "old" in the sense that it resorts to a cast iron block, push rods, and two valves per cylinder. Not the best way to squeeze the most out of an engine relative to its displacement. It benefits from modern technology in that computer aided design has the engine optimized as far as the design limitations permit. It's a simple design to be sure, but relatively inefficient in its output per unit of displacement compared to other engines made today.
The counter argument is that it's a simple, elegant design and puts out lots of horsepower.
I agree it's simple, but elegant? Not. The engine is cost effective on a cost per horsepower basis. That's great from the sellers perspective but not so good from the owners side of the fence because it isn't as efficient in operating cost per mile to the end user.
after reading the above post, keep this in mind. the 5.7l hemi produces more hp/L than any other normally aspirated truck v8....and also runs toe to toe (hp/L) with parent corp mercedes' own 5l v8. not bad at all in my book. plus, it costs consumers thousands less than said mercedes v8!
a good ol' murican V-8? Have you ever driven a Corvette? Heck, I just spent two days and 900 miles in a 5600 lb Chevy Tahoe with a 360 ft/lb V-8, and let me tell you something, you cannot replace that glorious feeling of jumping off the line that a large displacement, pushrod V-8 gives you. On the street, its all about torque, not horsepower. Do you drive around daydreaming about the wonders of the SOHC in the M's 3.5L? Come on, what axe do you have to grind?
Performance is defined by #1 power to weight of the vehicle, #2 powerband of the engine. Its only a perception game to worry about whether one considers the design "high tech" or "low tech". I grew up on high tech Japanese motorcycles so I know something about high revving, DOHC engines with outputs exceeding 100hp/liter. Hey, its a lot of fun as long as you want to live at 10,000 rpm. But in a luxury four door sedan? Never! Its all about performance, not perception. The proof will be in the numbers and the HEMI will perform admirably in the 300C and Dodge Magnum. Not only that, this will be a very stout, reliable engine. Chrysler is known for its excellent engines. Ever see a problem reported here on the 3.5?
Don't be offended, it's informative. But has anyone here bought the 2004 M w/the nav system?
The dealers in these parts are a little light on the details; they don't seem to have any in stock, and one compared it to the Pacifica's. They are not even positive about the cost; they "think" it's somewhere between $1,200 - $1.800 for the pack. Is it voice activated? Does it have hotels/restaurants/attractions like the LS? What about voice prompts?
While the 300M is unavailable, the dealers sure are united in purpose in trying to sell the Pacifica and the PT Dream Cruiser (what is it, a fake woody?), neither of which I'm particularly interested in.
I know an aftermarket Garmin would probably do the job for cheaper, as well as useable in all my vehicles. How much information does the nav system hold when trying to locate categories of businesses, other than the user first finding the business from another source and typing in each individual address?
Re the CL: I guess there wasn't that much of a market for a bland car considered reliable; didn't the redesigns help make it more popular to the buying public?
I didn't really expect most people to get it. Most Anglos don't and probably never will. It's the fundamental reason the Japanese kicked the American and European car makers in the [non-permissible content removed] and it continues to be the reason the Japanese dominate the market.
It's a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of perspective, it's a matter of goal. Most Anglo owned companies still operate in a screwed up fashion. They sub-optimize in one area causing compromises in another. They focus on the bottom line and ignore the needs of the customer. They fail to take the long term view and see the bigger picture.
Retro management, retro design, retro thinking and it will result in an unpleasant repeat of the past.
The one bright spot was the old Chrysler because I actually think people running it grasped the concept. It was the one car company that might actually have succeeded against the Japanese. But not anymore.
and all that because chrysler is gonna put a HO pushrod engine in the LX cars....!
i think detroit gets IT all right. they've just been struggling on how to deal with IT. the japanese have had a winning game plan in place for quite some time now, and it's gonna take detroit awhile to adapt and hopefully one up them. if detroit can get the quality stuff figured out, they'd rule because i still think the best looking vehicles come from us good old anglos!!
Then I guess such "retro" designs as Corvette and Viper have no appeal because they're underhood space is stuffed with reliable, HO, truck-based V-8s and V-10s.
BTW, the "old Chrysler" stuck with an outmoded 5.9L V-8 for 30 years. The new HEMI, while a pushrod, is a thoroughly modern design intended for both automobile and truck applications. It is much lighter, more compact, and more efficient than its predecessors. Cost is not controlled by making a cheap product. Cost is controlled by making a product that is useful across a broad range of applications [high volume = low overhead]. Chrysler is already very successful with this engine. Just because it went in a truck first doesn't mean it has to be ruled out for a car. Wait and drive it. You'll be impressed.
The FX is on my list, too. It's the first "SUV" that I've ever even considered. How's the MPG? I won't be in the market 'till '04 at least.
Also on "the list": Saab 9-3 (Convertible?) Audi A4 (Convertible?) Infiniti G35 Coupe/Sedan Mercedes E Class Lexus SC430 (Ok, not bloody likely...)
Luckily, it doesn't cost a cent to compile a list...!
'99 Platinum M, 46,500 miles. Still purring along. No post warranty issues to report, knock plood.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
My guess is the pushrod design produces more low and mid range torque, something the Japanese cars are not the best at producing, althought the various variable valve timing schemes are a vast improvement (gas mileage issues I suppose). Latest Motor Trend magazine has a small "First Look" article on the new 300C...says it is about the same length as the 300M.....4000 lbs.....cites a $32,000 price, but I'm sure that's sans the HEMI V8.
The picture shows what is clearly a "production version" of the car that is running.....looks like Chrysler is in the debugging and live testing phases. I think the car looks better on the road than in the auto show pics.
I will deeply mourn the passing of 300M production. One more revision of this outstanding platform would have been great- and not too expensive for DC either in the grand scheme of things. I imagine that adding a turbo (it has been done by an Intrepid owner!!!), beefy 6-speed Autostick, and a stability control system would have breathed new life into the LH body. Now all I can do is dream of what might have been.....
I plan to keep my 2001 as long as possible. I still think there is no car on the road with this combination of style (interior & exterior), handling, and versatility (big trunk with fold-down rear seat). The passenger room also puts most midsize SUV's to shame. Sure, automotive technology is passing this late 90's platform by, but why does everything out today have to look so UGLY next to my Zaino-shined Garnet 300M??????? Why can't a carmaker make something that makes me smile like the first time I laid eyes on a 300M?
The FX is a nice ride we absolutely love. One of the only vehicles that felt like it was a "step up" from the 300M. I am getting 15 city 20 hiway right now but I only have 600 miles on it. My 300 didn't get over 16 miles city till I broke 30k miles.
at $45K+, this vehicle is beyond the reach of 99.99988% of Americans by economics even if they liked it....about .000012% will buy it (+/- 30,000).
I continue to be totally amazed at the high priced vehicles that are being produced. Who can afford to buy all these things? Is the status symbol aspect being taken to new heights, or has our economy expanded the wealthy class to an extent I'm not comprehending? I'm a banker and I think I have a pretty realistic view.....and I can easily afford to buy even a $100M car if I chose to.....so who is buying these vehicles??
The FX 35 starts at 34k not to much more than a loaded 300M. I also leased mine so I'm only paying $20 more for it than my 300. Nicely equipped the FX runs 38k If you look you can get about a 3k discount to about 35k. A freaking ford explorer can get over 40k nowadays so it really isn't that extrodinary of a feat to purchase or lease a 40k+ car the avg car price is well over 20k already.
Has any seen a Nissan Murano up close. How does the interior compare to the FX45? I know it has less power (I think it has like 265hp) but it's also a lot cheaper and has a similar exterior style. I really like the FX and the Murano and may give it a look when I'm in the market. But for now the M serves my purpose probably for at least 2 more years.
Also what is the difference between the FX35 and the FX45--is it just engine size?
The murano is nice. The power difference is 35 hp between the murano and FX 245 vs 280. The interior is nice but I felt the one in the fx would hold up better. It holds it's own in ride and handling with fx. The only difference between a loaded 35 and 45 are the engine and auto up/down rear windows in the 45. Yet the price difference is about 6k. If I still lived where they get snow I would have probably went with the murano but down here in houston we rarely get below freezing so I chose the 35 for the rwd bias, nicer interior (IMHO), power, warranty, and dealer servie. this last point was probably my biggest factor because I have been treated so poorly by the Chrysler dealers I have gone to and if I was going to pay premium money (30K+) I wanted premium service. I wish they would have kept with the 300M and cab forward design looking forward. That 300C is just awful. I liked what chrysler was trying to do before the takeover but now I doubt I will buy another Chrysler product in the near future.
the new Maxima does have some similarities to the M---size, attractive exterior, sporty well appointed interior, and reasonable engine power. The sunroof is very unique--not sure if I like it as its looks very narrow.
The V6 out accelerates and brakes better than the M could hope for 0-60 in the rwd is 6.93 sec and a stopping distance from 60 in 111 ft. This is in a 4000 lb vehicle. It is amazing it will still hold .82g on the skidpad too. Doing 80 feels like you are standing still. The murano has also been timed at 7.1-7.5 faster than most M's have been clocked at. Do yourself a favor and take a look.
Easyrider The sky view does not open. You can opt for a traditional sunroof though.
Comments
They like black, "stately-looking", maybe in your face, cars. With a HEMI engine, it will be good for fast get-a-ways if necessary- IF the speed senors don't fail!
fastdriver
All times Eastern
4/30 10pm
5/1 12:30am
5/2 9am
5/3 10:30pm
5/4 9am and 7:30pm
They will be focusing on offerings from Maserati and Mini, but I'm hoping they will at least have a shot of the C so I can see it in something other than a pic on the Internet. I plan on watching tonight.
Intrepidspirit - Plenty of Pacificas at a discount here in Alabama as well! Even with a discount they still aren't cheap!!
Now that's the dilemma in a nutshell, isn't it?
I have been totally satisfied with both my 300Ms, BUT I am very pi**ed at Chrysler for the way they have decontented the recent models, as well as not improving them. After 130,000 miles in 300Ms I'm ready for a change, but where can you find all the attributes of a 300M at a comparable price? Anything close in features and price is too small, too dull, etc, you get the idea...
My lease is up, I must do something, and the only vehicle that seems to meet my requirements is the Pacifica. If I can get one at invoice I will probably bite the bullet and do so.
Enjoy, Silver
All for less than $36k
http://www.nissanusa.com/m/cma/i/4ma/4maxima_gal_big10.jpg
The Chrysler 300M was and is in my opinion the most advanced and innovative sedan design there is. The Pacifica is to me just another station wagon with a nav/dvd system. Yawn.....I want a 4 door sedan with enduring style. I did see a very, very nice looking car today....a 2 door Acura CL "S" I think it was......extremely neat and tight design lines...smooth...unadorned....looks like it is built well.
Before I purchased the 2003M, I gave my wife the opportunity to replace her M and I would take over hers. She looked at a few, but nothing stood out for her. I also looked at other cars before my latest purchase and I could not find anything that satisfied me in terms of price, value and styling.
The average price paid for both of our M's is less than $25,400 each. And with the 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty, this was the most satisfying choice available to me. Value is very important to me and I find driving the 300M to be an exciting, satisfying experience.
So, I didn't have the blinders on, this was just the right car for me at this time. Besides, while the 300C will fade into oblivion, the 300M is destined to become a classic!
http://www.nissanusa.com/m/cma/i/4ma/4maxima_gal_big09.jpg
Base msrp Maxima SE $26,950
Maxima SL $28,900
300M $29,185
So both cars are priced in the same price range.
I agree not as nice as an "M" but the question was what would you get to replace you "M".
Below is the list of cars to compare from the Maxima web site.
Acura TL 3.2 Type-S
Audi A4 1.8T
Chrysler 300M
Toyota Avalon XL Bench
Volkswagen Passat GLX 5AT
I would say that the closest car to 300M out there is Nissan Maxima.
Another one is the new 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Check it out.
A 5.7 translates to about 350ci which works out to about .98 hp/ci or 61 hp/liter which by today's standards isn't that great.
The OHC 4.7 HO V8 (287ci) does 55 hp/liter.
The 3.5 puts out 250-255hp which works out to around 72 hp/liter. Or 214 ci which works out to about 1.18 hp/ci.
Compared to the 5.9 V8 it replaces the Hemi looks good, but the 5.9 engine was 30+ years old. Against contemporary engine designs the new Hemi isn't that great. The new Hemi's claim to fame is the torque, not the hp.
If it matched the 3.5's HP output per liter it would be putting out about 410hp.
By comparison the 426 Hemi was about 7.0 liters.
This is a 2 valves per cylinder, pushrod design. A comparison to an overhead cam, 4 valves per cylinder isn't valid or fair.
When you campare to similar stock "muscle car" engines from the '70s you'll find the new hemi is right up there, partially thanks to advanced fuel injection technology.
Note of interest; a new Viper at 502 cu in and 500 hp is also near 1:1, at .996. Again, 2 valves/cylinder pushrod.
actually the hemi is 5.65l and 345 cubes in size...so it makes 1hp/cube. not all that awesome today, but chrysler engineers have said just a little massaging and this beast will produce 400hp. without expensive things such as variable valve timing, etc...
fastdriver,
per your remark about speed sensors, the 300c will have a mercedes tranny and not a chrysler tranny...
Yes, it IS fair because the market the 300C is going to be competing in is almost exclusively populated with multi-valve OHC engines and it will be judged against those cars. My point still stands that the Hemi hype and Hemi reality are two different things.
The engine is cheap to produce and that was the single biggest driver to it being used. Your point simply reinforces the fact that two valve per, pushrod engines aren't really very efficient power producers overall. It takes brute displacement to generate signficant power from them. They are more efficient from a manufacturing cost perspective, but that's it. Call it a hidden decontenting.
emale,
I rounded my numbers the way car companies typically do for displacement. I should have rounded .98 to 1 hp too.
You can massage any engine to output more horsepower. The only fair comparison is to look at an engine's mass production optimized stock output. Sure DC can pump more ponies out of it but there will be a price attached to that for the consumer.
call it what you want but the hemi is an elegant and efficient design that easily keeps pace or even surpasses other designs that may be considered more advanced from a technological standpoint. whether it will "play" well to the crowd that expects complex DOHC, variable valve timing in their 40k plus car, i don't know. and will anyone pay 40k for a chrysler...hard to say.
as for the hemi itself, sure there is marketing hype about it. but it is delivering the goods. just ask the guys who have them in their trucks. i believe it was kenne belle who tested a hemi and discovered that it produces more rwhp than any other truck v8 they've ever tested (including the 8.1L gm v8). that's nothing to sneeze at! as long as the hemi delivers on its promise, what's the problem?
one last note, several mags testers have surmised that chrysler is low balling the current hemi's output (meaning that it feels like it even has more powr/torque than what is currently advertised.
anyway, does more valves per cylinder, overhead cams mean better motor? doesn't to me as long as the performance is there!
But the rules haven't changed about valve train mass and having to overcome inertia. There's a signficant difference between rotational and reciprocating inertia - the fundamental one between OHC's and pushrods.
The day I see Mercedes reverting back to pushrods in their car engines is the day I'll re-evaluate the merits of pushrods.
CLS - I can't believe Acura is dumping it. It's the nicest looking car they have.
why can't simple = elegant?? i don't think there is some rule out there saying that something has to be complex to be elegant. the hemi's simple design stands on its own merits without a doubt.
and i agree, torque is where it's at. doesn't matter if the application is car or truck.
but, i'd also agree that we live in a world where we are told and believe that more is better. therefore i'm sure 32 valve heads and twin cams will always rule in the minds of those who don't get it...
If the objective is to wring every ounce of cost out of a process and product then it's probably an elegant solution. If the objective is to wring the most output per unit of displacement out of the engine then no, it isn't elegant - it's wasteful.
Pictures Here
My argument is that it's "old" in the sense that it resorts to a cast iron block, push rods, and two valves per cylinder. Not the best way to squeeze the most out of an engine relative to its displacement. It benefits from modern technology in that computer aided design has the engine optimized as far as the design limitations permit. It's a simple design to be sure, but relatively inefficient in its output per unit of displacement compared to other engines made today.
The counter argument is that it's a simple, elegant design and puts out lots of horsepower.
I agree it's simple, but elegant? Not. The engine is cost effective on a cost per horsepower basis. That's great from the sellers perspective but not so good from the owners side of the fence because it isn't as efficient in operating cost per mile to the end user.
Performance is defined by #1 power to weight of the vehicle, #2 powerband of the engine. Its only a perception game to worry about whether one considers the design "high tech" or "low tech". I grew up on high tech Japanese motorcycles so I know something about high revving, DOHC engines with outputs exceeding 100hp/liter. Hey, its a lot of fun as long as you want to live at 10,000 rpm. But in a luxury four door sedan? Never! Its all about performance, not perception. The proof will be in the numbers and the HEMI will perform admirably in the 300C and Dodge Magnum. Not only that, this will be a very stout, reliable engine. Chrysler is known for its excellent engines. Ever see a problem reported here on the 3.5?
The dealers in these parts are a little light on the details; they don't seem to have any in stock, and one compared it to the Pacifica's. They are not even positive about the cost; they "think" it's somewhere between $1,200 - $1.800 for the pack. Is it voice activated? Does it have hotels/restaurants/attractions like the LS? What about voice prompts?
While the 300M is unavailable, the dealers sure are united in purpose in trying to sell the Pacifica and the PT Dream Cruiser (what is it, a fake woody?), neither of which I'm particularly interested in.
I know an aftermarket Garmin would probably do the job for cheaper, as well as useable in all my vehicles. How much information does the nav system hold when trying to locate categories of businesses, other than the user first finding the business from another source and typing in each individual address?
Re the CL: I guess there wasn't that much of a market for a bland car considered reliable; didn't the redesigns help make it more popular to the buying public?
It's a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of perspective, it's a matter of goal. Most Anglo owned companies still operate in a screwed up fashion. They sub-optimize in one area causing compromises in another. They focus on the bottom line and ignore the needs of the customer. They fail to take the long term view and see the bigger picture.
Retro management, retro design, retro thinking and it will result in an unpleasant repeat of the past.
The one bright spot was the old Chrysler because I actually think people running it grasped the concept. It was the one car company that might actually have succeeded against the Japanese. But not anymore.
i think detroit gets IT all right. they've just been struggling on how to deal with IT. the japanese have had a winning game plan in place for quite some time now, and it's gonna take detroit awhile to adapt and hopefully one up them. if detroit can get the quality stuff figured out, they'd rule because i still think the best looking vehicles come from us good old anglos!!
BTW, the "old Chrysler" stuck with an outmoded 5.9L V-8 for 30 years. The new HEMI, while a pushrod, is a thoroughly modern design intended for both automobile and truck applications. It is much lighter, more compact, and more efficient than its predecessors. Cost is not controlled by making a cheap product. Cost is controlled by making a product that is useful across a broad range of applications [high volume = low overhead]. Chrysler is already very successful with this engine. Just because it went in a truck first doesn't mean it has to be ruled out for a car. Wait and drive it. You'll be impressed.
Also on "the list":
Saab 9-3 (Convertible?)
Audi A4 (Convertible?)
Infiniti G35 Coupe/Sedan
Mercedes E Class
Lexus SC430 (Ok, not bloody likely...)
Luckily, it doesn't cost a cent to compile a list...!
'99 Platinum M, 46,500 miles. Still purring along. No post warranty issues to report, knock plood.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The picture shows what is clearly a "production version" of the car that is running.....looks like Chrysler is in the debugging and live testing phases. I think the car looks better on the road than in the auto show pics.
I plan to keep my 2001 as long as possible. I still think there is no car on the road with this combination of style (interior & exterior), handling, and versatility (big trunk with fold-down rear seat). The passenger room also puts most midsize SUV's to shame. Sure, automotive technology is passing this late 90's platform by, but why does everything out today have to look so UGLY next to my Zaino-shined Garnet 300M??????? Why can't a carmaker make something that makes me smile like the first time I laid eyes on a 300M?
Jon
I continue to be totally amazed at the high priced vehicles that are being produced. Who can afford to buy all these things? Is the status symbol aspect being taken to new heights, or has our economy expanded the wealthy class to an extent I'm not comprehending? I'm a banker and I think I have a pretty realistic view.....and I can easily afford to buy even a $100M car if I chose to.....so who is buying these vehicles??
Also what is the difference between the FX35 and the FX45--is it just engine size?
http://www.nissanusa.com/m/cma/i/4ma/4maxima_gal_big01.jpg
Easyrider
The sky view does not open. You can opt for a traditional sunroof though.