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Jaguar X-Type

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Comments

  • samuel70samuel70 Member Posts: 17
    Can someone help me out regarding the engine used in the X type....are both the 2.5 and 3.0 the same mondeo engine..I really like this car...but my concern rests with the engine and the Ford presence....I have narrowed my search and its between the BMW 330 and X-type...and from what I see, the jag dealer in CT will deal, and the local BMW dealer can't be bothered to even talk...they just want to take the order at list.... interested to hear from you about the engine...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Read Edmunds.com's just published Road Test of the 2002 X-Type 3.0 by following the link in the Helpful Links box on the left sidebar of this page.

    (They didn't like it.)

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    They rarely like Jags.

    I remember them slagging off on the used 96 VDP that they leased a few years back because of ownership costs.

    Them smacking it up badly a few times didnt help either!

    Bill
  • ezaircon4jcezaircon4jc Member Posts: 793
    I believe the 2.5 and 3.0 share the same block. Not to worry. My '96 Sable has the Duratec (IIRC the Jag motors are basically the same) and we have just over 105k on it. I haven't been very gentle with it, either. I use synthetic oil and change about every 5k. And remember, without "the Ford presence", Jag just might not be around. Prior to Ford's acquisition, the best thing you could do for longevity was to dump the engine/trans, usually for a Chevy 350/turbo 400. Electronics were also FULL of gremlins. IIHO, Jag owners should be thankful for the money and quality Ford has infused into MY favorite marque. Still lusting for an XKR!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    3.0L duratech derivatives are also used in the S-type and Lincoln LS with no problems reported that I can remember. I wouldn't be concerned about it.
  • mvargo1mvargo1 Member Posts: 298
    If thinking of your engine as a ford moter bothers you that much, just think of it as half an Aston Martin Vantage 12 cyl. engine.

    The 2.5 and 3.0 are exactly the same engine. The 3.0 just has bigger holes in it. They are not exactly the same as the Ford moters; the cosworth designed heads and continuous variable valve timing are exclusive to Jag.

    If you are worried about reliability vs. BMW DON'T. According to JD powers Jaguar(#3), Lincoln(#4), and Mercury(#12) were all more reliable and had fewer problems than BMW(#13)

    Edmunds reviews are not worth the paper they are not printed on. Face it, if the people writing them were any good they would have jobs with one of any number of real automotive journals.
  • slingshot80slingshot80 Member Posts: 55
    This vehicle is based on the German Mondeo which spawned the Ford Contour and the Mercury Mystique. Neither of these vehicles have been very reliable. I have had a Contour for four years and have had the following problems: rebuilt the engine (under warranty)allegedly due to poor quality of oil, front bearing replaced, ignition coil replaced, transmission and timing belt replaced, struts replaced, water pressure gauge broke, dashboard lights broke, passenger door mechanism barely works, clunky ignition. What surprises me is that I have had no squeaks or rattles and everything seems solid unlike Edmund's comments concerning the Jaguar X. I have the 5 speed and I love to drive it. It is rock steady at 80-90 mph.

    However, I would be very wary of buying the X until there is some meaningful information concerning its reliability.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    After reading Edmunds' review, wondering if part of their real beef is tied to the price? Just like me, they seem a bit shocked to have a $44,000 X-type. Not the value that the $29,995 teaser price seemed to be. When you have a $44,000 MSRP there is a lot of worthy competition. That can get you into a nice Lexus GS300 or fully loaded ES; loaded BMW 330i or base 530i; Audi A6; Volvo S80; Saab 9-5; and darn near a Jag S-type. Guessing, they, like me, started comparing that loaded X-type to all these other cars and we came away unimpressed for the dough. Too much Mondeo and not enough XJ (or Aston Martin?).
  • nycanyca Member Posts: 232
    Sounds like they got a tester car that had been beaten to the ground by the previous reviewers, does anyone really think the things in that article are the norm?

    You can option a MB C Class to $47K if you add everything to it, it also has a $30K "teaser" price.
  • viet2viet2 Member Posts: 66
    44k for a unproven Xtype is steep. You can get a proven 330 for that much money, and when its time to sell the car, the resale value of the BMW will probably be much better.
  • mfprmfpr Member Posts: 41
    While it was unfortunate that Edmunds had problems with the X-Type they tested, it is not unusual for the cars loaned by the manufacturer to have been previously abused by other testers. I have also learned that, like movie reviewers, auto testers are most often looking for different criteria than I am. It's one thing to flog a car for a day, and quite another to live with one for years as a daily driver. Would you want the same qualities in a spouse as you would a short-lived affair? The sad fact is that readers of these reviews believe the words to be factual, when those words are just the opinion of the reviewer. Had I read this review before buying my X-Type, I would not have gone to test drive it. I traded a BMW 330Ci on my X-Type. The BMW drove and rode like a sports car. It was exciting for a while, but after the newness wore off, I became tired of dodging potholes and fighting the steering wheel in street ruts. The X-type is, for me, the perfect blend of sportiness and luxury. There are many people who would feel the same as I do, but will not take the opportunity to check it out because of this bias review. That's sad.

    Mike
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    No single review is the be all and end all of reviews. Potential buyers should read about any and every review they can. From enthusiast car magazines like C&D, R&T, & MT to consumer magazines like CR to newspaper reviews to Edmunds to Intellichoice to you name it. I certainly think the Edmunds' reviewer is telling the truth about what they experienced in the time they had the car and their impressions about driving and using the car. They pointed out the good, the bad, and the ugly. And honest review should do that.

    Edmunds and others have tested new cars from a variety of mfgrs that have been "previously abused" by other testers. Did they all behave like the X-type? Is that relevant? I think the answers are NO and YES. It does say something when one car can't handle heavy use. The X-type is intended as a serious all around high performance sport sedan. Does that mean reviewers are to drive it like a Geo Metro or VW Jetta diesel? No, they should drive it to find out its limits and capabilities. Just like any real owner over 50,000 miles of warranty might also.

    But just because the X-type "flunked" Edmunds' test, doesn't mean it will "flunk" others. It wouldn't surprise me to see some good reviews elsewhere. But the early reviews of real testers haven't been good. MT had it in a recent comparison test. They weren't too impressed for the over $40,000 as tested MSRP.
  • nycanyca Member Posts: 232
    http://www.motortrend.com/june01/jagxtype/jagxtype_f.html


    What MT review are you talking about?

  • johnnylincjohnnylinc Member Posts: 308
    Motorweek, the PBS show produced by Maryland Public Television, does a full road test of the X-type on this week's edition.


    Here's a link to the Motorweek website:


    http://www.pbs.org/mpt/motorweek/


    You can use the website to find out if and when Motorweek is shown on your local PBS station. Motorweek also appears (with commercials) on the Speedvision cable network.


    I haven't seen the X-type test yet, but I've always found Motorweek to be pretty fair and reasonable with their commentary. It'll be interesting to see & hear what they have to say.

  • mfprmfpr Member Posts: 41
    Just so prospective buyers won't be completely turned off by Edmunds' review, here's another opinion.


    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2102.shtml

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    nyca... Has the X-type (a $43,695 MSRP 3.0L automatic) against the I-35, ES300, MB C320, and Volvo S60 2.4T. In evaluating 10 factors related to the car--everything from powertrain to value--the X-type scored highest on only one factor: styling. It scored lowest on value. Compared poorly, though not lowest, in areas like rear-cabin space, ride, interior design, and trunk useability. Its test numbers were mediocre. It could only out-slalom the FWD ES300, had the poorest braking distance, and could only out-accelerate the ES300. And it had the highest RPMs in top gear (5th) at 60 mph, 2,500 RPMs.
  • nycanyca Member Posts: 232
    well, the motorweek review talks about the ride and truck space being their high points. And a 118 foot braking distance from 60-0 is excellent. What was the braking distance in the motor trend review?
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    nyca... Think it was 132 feet from 60 mph.
  • mvargo1mvargo1 Member Posts: 298
    The X-type is NOT based on the mondeo that spawned the contour and mystique. It shares its floorpan and some other pieces with the all new completely redesigned 2002 Mondeo.
  • jonty12jonty12 Member Posts: 101
    R&T breaking is also 118 ft, their 0-60 is 6.5 in the 3L M.

    Look at MT testing results:
    In Nov-01 they tested a 3L M and got 0-60 of 7.9
    In Jan-02 they test a 3L A and got 7.85.

    How do they manage to drive an automatic faster than a manual??!

    this is the same car that R&T got 6.5 for, and several other newspapers/magazines got 6.3!

    These numbers put into doubt anything that is published in MT.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Jonty12... MT comparison test was an automatic, not a manual. 3.0L X-type.
  • jonty12jonty12 Member Posts: 101
    http://autosite.com/new/grabbag/perform/2616.asp
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    jonty12... I subscribe to Motor Trend. I'm holding the 11/01 issue in my hand as I type this. The picture clearly shows the X-type is automatic. The technical summary page shows "5 speed automatic". The text is clear: "Our up-level tester (with the 3.0L V-6 and automatic tranny)". Thus, I can say with absolute certainty that the 11/01 MT comparison test was done using a 3.0L X-type and automatic transmission. This car went 0-60 mph in 7.9 seconds.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    jonty12... Took a simultaneous look at the 11/01 and 1/02 issues of Motor Trend, as well as the published pictures and test data on the X-type in each. From the pictures of the X-type in both and the test results, appears it was the same X-type in both. That would make it a 3.0 automatic. And that would explain the similarities in 0-60 time. The 11/01 time was 7.9 seconds and the 1/02 time is 7.85 seconds. I have long found it strange that MT publishes lots of test data for their January Car of the Year Issue, but then they forget to publish the engine/transmission specifications. So for cars with optional engines and optional transmissions, you aren't sure what they tested, unless it is mentioned somewhere in the text or there is an interior photo in that issue.
  • fndlyfmrflyrfndlyfmrflyr Member Posts: 668
    It is refreshing to see honest reporting of road tests. Three cheers for Edmunds! Have had two Jags, both S-Type 4.0. First was terrible, but Jag stepped up and offered a replacement. Second one much better than first, but still shows lack of quality control. X-Type has tight back seat for knees and head. Go power is a dream for the future. Too much money for what it is.
  • sargonivsargoniv Member Posts: 23
    I drop in here from time to time and find most of the time people are debating what is wrong or correct with the X-Type. On one hand I believe it is your money so buy what you like, but on the other being a very satisfied X-Type owner I hate to see misinformation or distortions put on the chat which may influence the purchase process of some who have not made the final decision.

    I have attached a section from the X-Type announcement document on the paint process which should help with a couple of threads on here about the so-called low cost approach Jaguar took on the X-Type paint process. You will see; a state-of-the-art painting process was put in place for the X-Type at a very high cost, and that it is the same 4-coat process used on all Jaguars.

    Bottom line, if you buy an X-Type you get a quality paint job -- better than BMW or MB??? I suspect they would all be very close.

    "Paint Shop

    Considerable changes have been made to the Halewood Paint Shop for the Jaguar X-TYPE, with 70 per cent of the original equipment replaced or substantially modified at a cost of over £50 million. Though the quality required in the premium car segment was the main driver of this change, environmental performance has also been
    substantially upgraded. The largest investment has gone into providing four new spray booths to deliver the four-coat paint process used on all Jaguars, rather than the three-coat system used
    previously in the plant. This involves an extra, initial primer coat, which is then wet-sanded - another procedure new to Halewood - to ensure a super-smooth and flat surface for second primer and top coats. This helps deliver the sleek and glossy finish for which the company's cars are renowned. Each spray booth has the latest generation computer controlled automation, and is located within a 'clean room' environment, with air heated or cooled as necessary, humidified and filtered to give the best possible painting conditions. The introduction of water-based topcoat (rather than solvent-based) also helps raise finished quality, as well as being more environmentally friendly. Further environmental improvements include high specification 'scrubbers' to remove paint overspray particles from the exhaust air and full incineration of all paint oven gases. Another standard Jaguar practice introduced to the Halewood Paint Shop is the use of a 'reflow' oven for anti-corrosion wax. In addition to the cavity wax injection used by many car makers, the Jaguar process goes one stage further, putting the injected car into a special oven where the wax melts and runs into the vulnerable clinched joints, to give extra protection against corrosion. Further new facilities include an electrocoat oven, body wash and dry-off oven, and
    new enclosures for enamel preparation and inspection. These enclosures include the latest 'striped' inspection lighting, which is critical for seeking out flaws in the paint film. Most other facilities within the Paint Shop have been replaced, modified or updated."
  • keyrowkeyrow Member Posts: 214
    My previous quote: "From the X-Type brochure titled X-Type Technical Specifications (roughly page 38, they aren't numbered): "Four coat paint process; initial primer coat followed by wet sanding to optimize surface smoothness for second coat and top coats." Since you also provide proof that this is true where is the misinformation?

    My "low cost" statement was in response to someone who I consider very knowledgable on Jaguars that they use a 10 step painting process rather than the normal 6 step. From this I must conclude that a mere 4 step process is low cost.

    I stand by original statements.
  • jonty12jonty12 Member Posts: 101
    i believe the confusion is based on the number of "steps" v "coats". it seems it's a 10 "step" process to apply 4 "coats" of paint. x literature refers to the number of coats, other jag literature (xj for instance) refers to the number of steps.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    Edmunds make it sound like the X-Type is a $45K Ford Taurus/Mondeo piece of Junk with the Jaguar label.

    The car is pretty to look at, but not worth $45K IMHO....not even $35K for that matter.

    I think the XJS sedan is the last of the breed...
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    About six months ago, I wrote in this forum that Jaguar had no business producing its own version of the Mondeo. Jaguars should be RWD with inline DOHC six cylinders and V8's. Jaguars should not be FWD or AWD with V6's. (Yes, there is a European X-type with a 155 hp 2.0L V6 and FWD.)Several people got angry and told me to stay away from this forum.

    Well, the reviews have come in, and it is clear that the car is mediocre.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    They must be picking up the entire exhaust system after each take off at the stop lights....LOL!
  • nycanyca Member Posts: 232
    Just picked it up yesterday, some photos here:

    http://home.att.net/~christophera/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html

    This is the new quartz color, with in dash CD. Two delivery defects: the windshield washer jets weep (known problem), and the battery cover has a crack in one of the plastic hold down clips.

    And for the naysayers on this board: the engine and transmission work, and the exhaust system is bolted to the car!
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    So,

    you've driven it yourself then?

    Bill
  • kssodkssod Member Posts: 37
    sargoniv,
    I'm glad that they go to such extremes to insure a quality paint job. Unfortunately, by x-type in adriatic blue paint felt very gritty to the touch on all flat surfaces ( trunk, bumpers and roof) at delivery. the car was taken back re buffed and no improvement. The salesman, manager and service guy all agreed that the surface was not smooth like the other cars on the showroom floor. The ENTIRE car was lightly wet sanded, and the Jaguar finish came through. I did not have the option of another car since this was NOV, and it was expected to be 3-4 mo before a comparable car(3.0 X1,X2,X3, Alpine,Xenons, Manual) could be produced, no equivalent was found in the US.

    After 1600 miles the car is flawless, sans a small buzz around the homelink trim over grooved pavement. A jaguar case number was made concerning the paint, hopefully it will be durable
  • goolappergoolapper Member Posts: 27
    Motor car co's (or anyother co for that matter) ain't the stinkin' goverment, they can have watevr
    "policies" or "practices" they want & i don't hav2 go along with'em. My personal policy is
    honesty & upfrontness & if that conflicts with some corp's policy then i can choose not 2 do
    business with them (unless its a global/local monopoly controlling an absolute need of life).

    Someone posted that they'd actually checked on the MB & BMW threads to c if i'd complained
    about their pricing policy & then complained that since i had'nt bitched over there i was a
    hypocrite!!! Well, i've never been 2 those threads as i was looking for a new Jag not a MB or
    BMW....As far as BMW pricing policies, I've owned 4 of'em & after negotiations were over
    felt like i got a good deal or wudn't bought the danged cars...

    My only point in posting was that Ford wud b selling a ton of these lovely cars @ 29950 with
    the small engine if the a/t & your choice of color was included at that price...For heaven's sake, while some of the "performance" focused posters can't c an a/t; almost all ladies (including my
    wife want nuttin' 2 do with shifting) & living (as most of us do now) in an ultracongested beep
    n creep ridiculuosly congested commuting area doubt most guys want a manual trans on their
    daily driver

    And about the paint...they've got this super duper new paint plant. sure its almost totally
    robotized. The cost of actually applying the premium paint is marginal, ie- the margin between
    the cost of reg paint & premium paint....the robot just sprays the heck out of whatever comes
    its way with watevr its been loaded with, don't think the paint robot really "cares" one way or the
    other (unless its a Marin Co robot!!! programmed 2 care deeply!)

    U guys made mostly good points but it sounded like some of u work for Jag/Ford from your
    defenses of theirs (& other co's) "teasing ways".

    As a believer in the free market, have made my decision not to buy the car even tho i liked
    it alot! If the teaser price wudda been the "real" price for the car with minimally acceptable
    features (a stinking A/T & any color paint they offer) it wudda been a sale.
  • sargonivsargoniv Member Posts: 23
    Of course you do -- didn't expect otherwise.

    I wanted to make the point that the argument about a 10 or 6 step process was misleading to many since all Jaguars use the 4 coat process and for the X-Type the Jaguar document confirmed they were painted the same way as the others. Bottom line, the misinformation I think is that a 4 coat paint process was not a cost reduction that Jaguar made for the X-Type as you indicated. The Ford process used in the same plant before it was ripped out for the new Jaguar plant used a 3 coat process.

    Now the 10 step process to 6 step process may be talking about steps other than just the number of coats of paint -- I have never seen either of these referenced in the documentation.
  • sargonivsargoniv Member Posts: 23
    Sorry to hear about your problems -- sounds like the first base coat was not wet sanded properly as it should have been.

    I am begining to think I was lucky to get one of the very first X-Types in the area (made in May and delivered at the end of Aug. It seems they took a lot of pains with these.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    I think its' a 10-coat, 4-step process.

    I.E. the car doesnt have just one coat of color or clear.

    Maybe that's the confusion..

    I.E. 1 coat basecoat, 2 coats primer, 4 color coats, 3 clear coats..etc..

    Bill
  • jonty12jonty12 Member Posts: 101
    ... says otherwise. the x-type brochure clearly says 4 coats, while the jag website says 10 step process.

    From the website:
    "Jaguar's ten-step paint process results in a world-class finish, featuring deep lustrous color, that resists rust and corrosion throughout the automobile's life."

    From the brochure:
    "The largest investment has gone into providing four new spray booths to deliver the four-coat paint process used on all Jaguars, rather than the three-coat system used previously in the plant. This involves an extra, initial primer coat, which is then wet-sanded - another procedure new to Halewood - to ensure a super-smooth and flat surface for second primer and top coats."

    hey when did you move to poland???
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Poland? ???

    Oh.. the flag.. Monaco.

    Its a 3 or 4 step process, that's true. What It is though.. is that its more than just 4 single coats applied from what I have found out..

    Bill
  • keyrowkeyrow Member Posts: 214
    I did not intend to mislead anyone, and I still do not think I have done so. As you said, "Bottom line, the misinformation I think is that a 4 coat paint process was not a cost reduction that Jaguar made for the X-Type as you indicated." From the above recent posts it seems that there is still a perception that Jaguar uses many more than 4 coats of paint on their cars. BTW, the salesman I spoke with told me "the X-Type has an 8 coat paint application process just like all Jaguars."

    My point that a 4 coat process was a cost lowering scheme was given from the ASSUMPTION that others who are much more knowledgeable than I said Jag uses many more coats, once again proving the caution that everyone should take when gathering information from the 'Net: Who is saying it and What is their motivation for doing so.

    I apologize to everyone if my statements, based upon what I thought was reliable information, were incorrect.
  • jonty12jonty12 Member Posts: 101
    sorry, must have been a case of flag/colour dyslexia.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    I'll call a friend of mine at Jaguar North America or the UK on Wednesday and sort this out.

    Fair enough? :)

    Bill
  • keyrowkeyrow Member Posts: 214
    Waiting patiently for the real situation to be revealed.
  • tuckmantuckman Member Posts: 22
    Hi all,

    I just picked up my new X-Type last Friday night, 3 liter manual with X1 as the only option.

    I took the Jag for my first mountain drive today, and it is truly amazing. I have rarely driven a car that makes me feel like a better driver, but the X does that. I drove through hairpin turns (posted at 10 MPH) and fast descending radius sweepers, up and down drastic elevation changes, all on twisty roads with a mix of dry pavement, sand and a little snow (Colorado can offer some great roads). The X cornered like it was on rails.

    I was driving very fast, usually leaving the car in 3rd gear and just using the power to pull out of turns. I only got the car unsettld once, on a snow packed corner that I entered WAY too fast. Not having driven an AWD car before, I was trying to get the back end out a little, so the front end pushed slightly instead. The car caught itself, though, with just a little throttle lift.

    I have friends that race SCCA autocross who are excellent drivers, far better than I. One has an Audi S4, another a BMW 330i. The S4 could take me easy due to the power difference, the BMW would be a close match. I am amazed at how flat the car road, with very little body role, but with a smooth and fluid ride.

    The power delivery was great. Very responsive throttle, good torque distribution, and excellent pulling power. Even coming out of some slow turns in 3rd gear, the car pulled stongly and smoothly back up to speed.

    I never noticed the all wheel drive. It didn't detract from the performance of the car, and in fact may be a little too competent. I NEVER noticed the front wheels pulling, or correcting a slide, because the car just wouldn't budge from whatever line I chose for it.

    The steering is light, fast, and precise. Transitions between turns produced very little body role.

    I am coming out of a Lincoln LS, so the seat in the X still feels a little confining, but was very comfortable over a 3 hour period with only one short break. Fuel economy is 19.7 at the end of the drive (237 miles on the car).

    My only complaints are minor. First, this car deserves a 6 speed manual tranny. The 5 speed is slick and smooth, but 5th gear is basically worthless, keeping the RPMs up too high at highway speeds, but not providing any real power. Also, I personally would like the clutch to engage a little sooner, but it is very similar to other cars in its class.

    So, to sum up: Very fast, very smooth, and very competent. I haven't driven the car enough to be good at it yet, but first impression is extremely positive.

    Brent
  • desaljsdesaljs Member Posts: 24
    This morning I drove by my local dealer in East Peoria, Illinois and saw 12 X Types sitting on his lot. I did not carefully inspect them to see what price/options were there, but was very surprised at the number of vehicles on the lot. Are these cars still selling quickly or has the market already caught up with demand?

    The Edmunds review was very unsettling and brought back memories of Jag "quality" from years past. I hope everyone buying these vehicles is getting better quality then Edmunds got.
  • jonty12jonty12 Member Posts: 101
    i think if you were to examine those on the lot, you'd find the great majority are 3.0's. they can't get enough 2.5's on lots, but they also can't seem to sell the 3.0's. it's the same in dallas where one of the local dealers has about 20 vehicles, all but 3 or 4 are 3.0's.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    The X's are made in England in a factory that used to make Euro Escorts. I wonder how well the workers were re-trained to make "luxury cars"?

    I am disappointed to hear the bad reviews the car is getting, I wanted to see it strike a home run.
  • jean7of9jean7of9 Member Posts: 192
    Congratulations for your new X. Nice comprehensive report. Please keep us informed how you go along with the car. I am watching this board closely for my next (second) car. Edmunds.com reports are not always credible, (but are written by nice people though). Before I acquired my 99 MB E320 4matic, Edmunds.com have written explicitly in their reports "we do not like the transmission on this car" without mentioning why, for two years in a row. Luckily their reports did not discourage me from test driving, then buying the car, which happens to have a fantastic transmission IMHO. Now I am relying on the X new owners opinions before my final decision next spring.
    Happy New Year everyone.
    Jean
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    In November Jaguar sold nearly twice as many 3.0s as they did 2.5s (1,567 vs 846) and for the then YTD it was 3,957 for 3.0 versus 2,698 for 2.5. Guessing the December figures will be out in a few days.
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